I just watched a segment on Lou Dobbs' Great American Giveaway regarding the trend of outsourcing in America. A University of California Berkeley study released today warns that 14 million American jobs, 11% of the US workforce, are at risk of being outsourced to other nations. These jobs can be outsourced to other nations much faster and much easier than factory jobs were exported in the past. The study also outlines the types of jobs most at risk. If you job consists of mainly sitting at a desk, talking on the phone, or working on a computer, your job is at risk. Jobs such as those in insurance, legal research, data analysis, call centers, payroll, and other back-office activity. The threat is strongest in cities such as San Francisco, San Jose, Boston, and New York. These jobs are mainly going to India, where by 2008, 17 million Indians will be qualified to fill these and other IT jobs. If you're calling an 800 number for troubleshooting service on your home PC, your call is being routed to Bombay. They are trained to tell you that you're calling Houston, Texas, but it is really Bombay. In some of these countries, mean salaries are 1/20th of what Americans are being paid. Regardless if the outsourcing occurs, one effect the risk has is in driving the wages of these jobs down.

Guess the skillful ones will move on, find work somewhere, or create work somewhere else. The losers will go on unemployment so we can carry them on our backs. Oh well..........

it tells me you better get an education or your going to be left behind

I believe AOL already does this (try their help line)

Originally posted by SDuquette
Guess the skillful ones will move on, find work somewhere, or create work somewhere else. The losers will go on unemployment so we can carry them on our backs. Oh well..........

Hmm 11% of America will find a job somewhere else? There are 14 million jobs out there waiting for them? And is someone who's done IT for the last 20 years a loser because they have trouble developing skills as an engineer overnight? Sounds kind of tripe to me.... :rolleyes:

I wonder if you'll have the same stolid tone when it's your job being exported to Ireland...

Can't do that, unless people are going to send their cars to Ireland to get worked on :egads:

BTW, someone who's been in IT for 20 years should have known that the day might come when his services might not be needed, and planned for it. It's called being preactive

Originally posted by SDuquette
Can't do that, unless people are going to send their cars to Ireland to get worked on :egads:

One day (OBD-III?) a machine may be developed that can troubleshoot the exact problem on any car and an unskilled minimum wage immigrant only has to learn how to follow the instructions the machine gives him, from a selection of 40 different languages :D. Or better yet the machine is motorized similarly to an assembly line machine and can do all teh work itself. I just came up with that scenario off the cuff. I'll bet you weren't preactive enough to consider that ;)

Originally posted by SDuquette
BTW, someone who's been in IT for 20 years should have known that the day might come when his services might not be needed, and planned for it. It's called being preactive

So should everyone in every working-class occupation be training themselves in two or three or more skillsets so that they can satisfy an otherwise illogical fear of being replaced by foreigners? Sounds good, I'll just learn to be a doctor, lawyer, and engineer all at once! And even then, I have no guarantee that I'll be replaced in all three sectors! :rolleyes:

How in the hell are you supposed to predict that Indian nationals are going to one day replace English-speaking IT techs? The things you tell yourself to give creedance to the erosion of America... I guess you see no problem herehttp://www.intellexual.net/cl/nonono.gif

Even if outsourcing doesn't occur, wages for the working class Americans within the $40k-80k bracket will steadily decline as a result of the risk. The cost of living will continue to rise while the standard of living will continue to fall and the middle class will be redefined as the impoverished :thumbdn:

Originally posted by lex400sc
One day (OBD-III?) a machine may be developed that can troubleshoot the exact problem on any car and an unskilled minimum wage immigrant only has to learn how to follow the instructions the machine gives him, from a selection of 40 different languages :D. Or better yet the machine is motorized similarly to an assembly line machine and can do all teh work itself. I just came up with that scenario off the cuff. I'll bet you weren't preactive enough to consider that ;)



Te field I'm in can't be done by any machine that wouldn't cost more than most of the businesses I'm in are worth. Yes, there are cheap immigrant alternatives, but the quality of work shows, and people follow the businesses that are doing the best work. Hell, a lot of the work I get is because they were extremely dissatisfied by the work a previous company did, due to their low paid immigrants. Until they design a plastic that doesn't scratch, crack, or fade, I can always fall back on this trade. But, it's not my only skill and I can move across different field with the skills and experience that I have to back me up. I don't have to rely on being an IT person the rest of my life. I can be a car salesman one day, and insurance/benefits salesperson the next, and inventory/wharehouse manager the next, a line cook the next, or just move to a different area of automotive work. Hell, I'm in pretty good shape, and law enforcement appeals to me. Point is, the job market isn't necessarily one where you work somewhere for 20 years and retire anymore. That is a big reason why people set up 401k's and carry them around with them.


Originally posted by lex400sc

So should everyone in every working-class occupation be training themselves in two or three or more skillsets so that they can satisfy an otherwise illogical fear of being replaced by foreigners? Sounds good, I'll just learn to be a doctor, lawyer, and engineer all at once!

Sounds about right. :eek2:

So what are you proposing lex400sc, that the government make overseas outsourcing illegal?

Again, you're only seeing a zero sum game regarding jobs. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of manufacturing jobs have gone overseas in the past few decades, but other jobs DID in fact fill the void - mostly service jobs. Less ambitious people lost their cushy $20+/hr union 'protected' manufacturing job and ended up working at a Subway for $7/hr. More ambitious ones used the money they'd saved in their union job and OPENED that Subway!

Once again, I urge you to read Work Of Nations by Robert Reich (a good Lefty by the way :D ), who ELOQUENTLY spells out what's been going on in the workforce for decades and is going to happen.

Increasingly cheap and powerful communications, transportation, and computers mean many jobs can be done anywhere. Overseas outsourcing is going to continue to happen. What does it mean? Some will wake up and learn to do higher value work, and some will end up working at Starbucks or Subway.

I found it interesting that you mentioned San Francisco, San Jose, Boston, and New York, because those cities are the most obscenely expensive and taxed in the nation - no wonder companies want to do ANYTHING to move jobs away from those places. I just spoke to someone buying a 1000 sq. foot $300K+ flat in San Francisco. He calls it a 'lifestyle' kind of place. I call it a tiny apartment!

Chase bank just announced they're moving 1000 call center jobs from Long Island (again, INCREDIBLY expensive, meaning that people must be page HUGE wages), to CANADA! Many companies are finding cheap educated labor north of the border in the frozen wasteland up there. And the exchange rate helps too.

Originally posted by bitkahuna
So what are you proposing lex400sc, that the government make overseas outsourcing illegal?

I'm not proposing anything; I'm just passing news along. Just because I point out a bad trend doesn't mean I have a solution for it ;).

The only solution I see in sight is too idealist for anyone's taste in Corporate America or Washington. My solution to this problem would be to encourage a higher standard of living in other developing nations instead of forcing them deeper down into poverty by exploitation. If India and other poor nations were on par with the developed nations, outsourcing wouldn't be nearly as attractive. Without the enormous level of disparity in the world, the issue of cheap labor would be a non-issue. This is obviously too idealist because the distribution of wealth is not likely going to change on its own. The powers that be are too shortsighted to invest in something so far off into the future. One result of outsourcing that'll surely leave a bad aftertaste is the shifting of capital from America to India. It hurts our economy, but at least someone benefits :\

Originally posted by lex400sc
I'm not proposing anything; I'm just passing news along. Just because I point out a bad trend doesn't mean I have a solution for it ;).

The only solution I see in sight, which is too idealist for anyone's taste in Corporate America or Washington, is to help raise the standard of living in other nations instead of forcing them down into poverty by exploitation. If there wasn't so much disparity in the world, the issue of cheap labor would be a non-issue. I say too idealist because the distribution of wealth is not likely going to change on its own. The powers that be are too shortsighted to invest in something so far off into the future. One result of outsourcing that'll surely leave a bad aftertaste is the shifting of capital from America to India. It hurts our economy, but at least someone benefits :\

It didn't work that well for Russia now did it??

Originally posted by SDuquette
It didn't work that well for Russia now did it??

Are you implying that I proposed communism? God you are dense! :egads:

Outsourcing is a problem because it is moving jobs overseas. The corporations do this because it is cheaper, but I don't think the government can do anything about it (BTW, I'm not contending that you stated the government should do something about it). What we should do is pressure the corporations to keep the jobs in America. Of course it will require the corporations to forgoe more profit, but they've got to have Americans in mind when they make their decisions (that's what I think, looking out for Americans puts money into the pockets of Americans so they can buy goods and services from these corporations).

This is an extremely complex problem, but my gut tells me that these corporations should not out-source jobs.

Outsourcing is going to continue no matter what. There really isnt much people can do about it unless they want to move to other nations, but then again thats a pretty bad idea. The job market is usually worse there. I mean lets just say that Company X decides that its just too expensive to do business in America so naturally they see an opportunity to move their business to a different nation that has a lower cost of living. They can obviously pay them less but the competition is worse than you might think. Take a look at India. I was recently there and you couldnt image the work and determination it takes to even get a job that pays enough to support your family. This nation is basically built on family so when I say support their family I mean their whole family that includes parents, brothers, sisters and many times cousins and even aunts and uncles. They might even be more quailified than any American but thats only because of the pressures of their society. A lot of my family is still there and my cousins (and everyone else ) has to not only be number 1 in their class but in the top 3 of the whole school. This is out of a couple hundred students. Those selected few will pretty much be the only ones making it to a good college and earning a good degree to support their family. The rest might get into a smaller college and earn a mediocre degree and work at a couple jobs that will pay enough to get by. This is what makes outsourcing so effective. The competition is just so high that its pretty much equivalent to all the people in the US who graduate from a college or university will complete a Ph.D. :thumbdn: Could you imagine applying for a job that pays minimum and everyone has a Ph.D and your the only one who has just a college degree? I'm not saying American workers are uneducated, in fact most times they're more educated, but those people have to work 10 times as hard and get paid 100 times less. So if you owned Company X who would you hire? Someone who is dedicated, someone who would never even consider leaving the company and would work as hard as necessary or someone that can do the same job for more money and may even leave for another company if they pay more? Much like Rich I also thought well what if the US helps other nations that are in poverty? Instead those nations are exploited and used by other nations to get their own work done in a selfish and greedy manner. Why not just help them out and, Rich, to tell you the truth, a lot of those countries are too far beyond that now. Take India for example, now considering the amount of political corruption, ignorant mentality and greed there is no nation could help raise the standard of living. If you ever have a chance to visit India (which I suggest you dont unless you have a few Indians with you) take walk down the downtown streets of Calcutta (Kolkota now). Its much worse than you think. If every nation tried to hep raise the cost of living, I think, it would take more than a 100 years to even get it high enough to even compare to the top 10 nations.

I guess you have consider outsourcing a bad thing since its taking away jobs in the US. You have to consider it a good thing since those jobs go to nations that really need them but at a pay that barely supports a family. What company would pass up that kind of deal?

horray for outsoucring :confused:

Most people forget, than when you displace employees, and it takes them 3 months or 3 years to find a job, you have just displaced viable consumers with dispensible income. Once that happens, you introduce the problem for a company of lower revenue,...leading to more layoffs / cutbacks, and the cycle keeps pertpetuating itself. Corporate world can't keep laying people off and some how think, sales are going to go up. The more people with jobs, the more spending goes along with that.

Originally posted by NAZTY97
Most people forget, than when you displace employees, and it takes them 3 months or 3 years to find a job, you have just displaced viable consumers with dispensible income. Once that happens, you introduce the problem for a company of lower revenue,...leading to more layoffs / cutbacks, and the cycle keeps pertpetuating itself. Corporate world can't keep laying people off and some how think, sales are going to go up. The more people with jobs, the more spending goes along with that.


At the microeconomic level thats true and should raise a lot of concerns because it will only escalate like a rolling ball of snow. You have to be able to counterbalance but whos willing to do that? Yes, it may take 3 months to even 3 years to find another job but a lot of people are not willing to get a job that may already be available to hold them over until they find a better job. That also causes a lot of problems because sitting at home looking for a job doesnt always work out and on top of that you have to conserve the saved up income so spending decreases while there is no income. A temporary job would be the ideal thing to do but a lot of people are not willing so it just makes the ball of snow bigger.
You just gotta love economics. There are just so many variables and predicting an outcome works most of the time but not always. You just cant consider every variable

Originally posted by lex400sc
God you are dense!

Lex, please keep to the topic and not comment on the molecular structure of your discussion partners.

Originally posted by lex400sc
I just watched a segment on Lou Dobbs' Great American Giveaway regarding the trend of outsourcing in America. A University of California Berkeley study released today warns that 14 million American jobs, 11% of the US workforce, are at risk of being outsourced to other nations. These jobs can be outsourced to other nations much faster and much easier than factory jobs were exported in the past. The study also outlines the types of jobs most at risk. If you job consists of mainly sitting at a desk, talking on the phone, or working on a computer, your job is at risk. Jobs such as those in insurance, legal research, data analysis, call centers, payroll, and other back-office activity. The threat is strongest in cities such as San Francisco, San Jose, Boston, and New York. These jobs are mainly going to India, where by 2008, 17 million Indians will be qualified to fill these and other IT jobs. If you're calling an 800 number for troubleshooting service on your home PC, your call is being routed to Bombay. They are trained to tell you that you're calling Houston, Texas, but it is really Bombay. In some of these countries, mean salaries are 1/20th of what Americans are being paid. Regardless if the outsourcing occurs, one effect the risk has is in driving the wages of these jobs down.

WOW, I see many new small Business openning because of this.... They will need employee, so this could be really good for us... might be bad though, I'm not going to dwell on that side of things.. I know that I am hiring 50 positions next year..

Originally posted by DaveGS4
Lex, please keep to the topic and not comment on the molecular structure of your discussion partners.


lol...:D

Hehe, sorry Dave :)

Originally posted by NAZTY97
Most people forget, than when you displace employees, and it takes them 3 months or 3 years to find a job, you have just displaced viable consumers with dispensible income. Once that happens, you introduce the problem for a company of lower revenue,...leading to more layoffs / cutbacks, and the cycle keeps pertpetuating itself. Corporate world can't keep laying people off and some how think, sales are going to go up. The more people with jobs, the more spending goes along with that.

The people laid off may not have been viable customers for the company's products or services for one thing. For another if laying off people allows a company to reduce expenses and lower service or product prices in order to be more competitive, then it may win additional marketshare which is what companies are trying to do. Now one could say that in a feeding frenzy, eventually there's no food left to consume, but somehow sharks survive anyway. :) If one market becomes less viable, then there's others... the world is a big place.

The company I work for processes credit card and other payment transactions. There's lots of companies in the game and of course the U.S. market is completely oversaturated by credit cards and just about every business accepts them. So now we're looking overseas for expansion. In Asia/Pacific only 2% of merchants accept credit cards... that's a lot of market potential! :D

This trend is one of the reasons so many people (4000 per month) move to Vegas. It's tough to outsource jobs like cocktails and dealers. Stuff like this and NAFTA is the reason that we have moved from a manufacturing to service based economy.