Allow me to shed some light upon my views...

First of all 'liberal' is I guess what you would label me as. Though we all bicker back and forth about politics, policy, taxation, and other domestic issues, admittedly I'm probably wrong on some viewpoints, admittedly my solutions aren't probably the best answer to all the many problems, but let's for a second seperate our internal domestic issues from the world issues. I guess what seperates a true liberal from the other side are the individual concerns and priorities we all have. Some people are more focused on their culturally-based version of right and wrong, on their own income, on the economy as it pertains to their own financial security, on their own personal welfare, etc but to me these are all trivial, myopic issues that we will never arrive at any agreeable concensus with. So for a second, let's scratch all the politics from this discussion. Let's focus on the issue globally.

I am not one who "would like everyone to be equally miserable" as others have described it. I am just one that sees endless pain and suffering around the world and am saddened by it. I am a night owl, and most nights after I finish my homework, I sit on my roof in the twilight hours smoking a cigarette, overlooking my prosperous town, looking into the sky, and thinking about others around the world and their contrasted situation. I see myself enjoying so much safety, comfort, pleasure, and happiness, and I feel that I am undeserving of it all. I was lucky enough to be born in this nation, into an educated, hard-working family, into opportunity, and into what I would consider a life of abundance. And based on all my sources and input, I see that there are probably 20% of us in the world that enjoy a similar or greater level of safety, comfort, prosperity. But then there are the 80% out there who suffer from the misery of conflict and disparity. Call me a hippy, an idealist, or even a sap, but I feel and have concern for the billions of people in the world who are living in poverty, fear, suffering, disease, violence, and agony. I wonder to myself, "why in a world so capable of a relative peace, so capable of feeding everyone, clothing everyone, providing health care and education to everyone---why in this world is there so much pain and suffering? Why does all of Africa, Central America, South America, the Middle East, Asia, and other regions hurt while we wastefully pleasant lives? Every day there is enough food produced to feed every mouth on this planet. Yet when I go out to eat at nice restaurants with my buddies, I see at the end of the meal masses of food thrown out for the alley rats. I see dozens of gallons of milk at the grocery store about to expire and be thrown out. I see waste everywhere. Why do people in Africa not have enough money to buy grain or clean water to feed themselves while it sits on shelves in our grocery stores? Most if not all the world's problems, including wars and revolutions, stem from disparity and greed. I don't want to make everyone equally miserable, but why does the CEO of Chevron sit on billions of dollars, why on earth would a single person possibly need that much money, when an African needs, but doesn't have the means to basic nutrition?

I have no solution to the problem, though I've thought about it a lot, but I am able to identify policies that do not help the situation. One of the biggest factors is the United States foreign policy. I have been called unpatriotic, a Saddam-sympathizer, a communist, a Bush-basher, Republican-basher, and various other names for my disagreeing with the way we manipulate the world. Fair enough. The way I see it, the neoliberal policies we impliment to manipulate the world only encourages the disparity, violence, conflict, and suffering around the world. Just like cancer, I don't have the cure to the problem, but I know that smoking cigarettes doesn't help. Bush's wars, Clinton's wars, and all the other wars we've waged or involved ourselves in in the last century have done nothing but fanned the flames. The fact that it's all coming back to bite us in the ass (9/11) is a seperate matter to discuss. I would just like to clarify my outlook on life. People who earn success, and even those who are just priviledged enough to inherit it, should be able to enjoy it, but when the combined GDP of the 48 poorest nations in the world amounts to less than the annual income of the three richest people combined, I see nothing but a crying shame. When half the world (three billion people) live on less thant $2.00 per day, and some can't even make that much for themselves, I empathize with them. When one billion people entered the 21st century unable to read or sign their own names, I can only shake my head. When less than one percent of what the world spends on weapons is needed to put every child in the world to school by 2000, yet it never happened, I see a major problem. Too much of the world's resources are dumped into paranoia of losing power, and the United States, the world leader, is the number one offender. Eisenhower once said this:

" Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. "

- President Dwight Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

...and I guess it is a summation of my concerns.

Another fact given to us by Ramsey Clark, the former U.S. Attorney General, illustrates my point to an equal degree:

" The United States spends more on arms annually, $275 billion presently, than the rest of the Security Council combined. U.S. arms expenditures are approximately 25 times the gross national product of Iraq.

The U.S. has in its stockpiles more nuclear bombs, chemical and biological weapons, more aircraft, rockets and delivery systems in number and sophistication than the rest of the world combined. Included are twenty commissioned Trident II nuclear submarines any one of which could destroy Europe. "


I see so many missed opportunities, so many disappointments, and so many squandered resources, I don't believe the conservative right and its policies will ever effect a positive change. It is all a short-term pseudo-solution to a much more complex problem. I guess history really does teach us nothing, for the same method of government policy has been pursued since the beginning of civilization, and never has it once worked to unify the world in a relative peace. Albert Einstein was a first-hand witness to the greatest world wars and of that he said " The significant problems that we face today cannot be solved at the same level of thinking that created them. "

At this point, I really have no idea where I'm trying to go with this. I had an idea when I started this, but I've lost it since. This has all prety much amounted to a collection of loosely related thoughts. I'll try to clarify better once I get my thoughts organized ;).

-

Originally posted by lex400sc
I am a night owl, and most nights after I finish my homework, I sit on my roof in the twilight hours smoking a cigarette, overlooking my prosperous town, looking into the sky, and thinking about others around the world and their contrasted situation. I see myself enjoying so much safety, comfort, pleasure, and happiness, and I feel that I am undeserving of it all. I was lucky enough to be born in this nation, into an educated, hard-working family, into opportunity, and into what I would consider a life of abundance.
I do the same thing too, ponder about others living on this planet, others who suffer or are not privileged. Under the very same stars, moon, and sun that blankets me, there are others under the very same stars, moon, and sun whose stomachs are grinding itself away, people being gunned down and not being able to live their lives to the fullest, and others who are so desparate to eat that they sell their children to slave-drivers. It is pretty sad that we can't banish all these ills. Unfortunately, the realities of politics, greed, and selfishness hinder this. There are people who govern nations who don't give a damn about their people, they only care about amassing power and wealth. It's sad that people are like this.

Originally posted by lex400sc
Every day there is enough food produced to feed every mouth on this planet. Yet when I go out to eat at nice restaurants with my buddies, I see at the end of the meal masses of food thrown out for the alley rats. I see dozens of gallons of milk at the grocery store about to expire and be thrown out. I see waste everywhere.
That's so true. There is a lot of waste and glutony in this country. We are worried about curing our morbid obestiy while people on the other side of the world worry about where they will find their next meal.

Originally posted by lex400sc
The way I see it, the neoliberal policies we impliment to manipulate the world only encourages the disparity, violence, conflict, and suffering around the world. Just like cancer, I don't have the cure to the problem, but I know that smoking cigarettes doesn't help. Bush's wars, Clinton's wars, and all the other wars we've waged or involved ourselves in in the last century have done nothing but fanned the flames.
Sometimes you have to break some eggs to spread democracy. Although some of the wars/engagements have not been in the name of democracy, democracy is spreading and people are starting to realize that their opinion, vis a vis, vote means something. We are progressing: we've come from dictatorships and kingdoms to a democratic form of government. It is not perfect, but at least everyone has a say. Who knows where we will go from here, we can possibly end up in a similar world to that portrayed in Star Trek where people don't starve, money is obsolete, and the humans are at peace with one another. That would be quite an achievement, I hope it comes true one day (and I think you might feel the same way too).

Originally posted by lex400sc
When one billion people entered the 21st century unable to read or sign their own names, I can only shake my head. When less than one percent of what the world spends on weapons is needed to put every child in the world to school by 2000, yet it never happened, I see a major problem.
It is sad that there are people who don't get a basic education. I put education on the same tier as food, shelter, and clothing. Without an education you go nowhere in life. I believe that we should be spending more on eduction, although how the money is used for this purpose is another problem. I would like to elaborate about how a lack of an education is detriment to the individual and society as a whole, but I'm getting pretty tired now.

I agree with most of your points and how depressing it is that all of the world's problems can't be rectified with all our wealth and technology. We have the same goals/concerns in mind, the disagreement arises when choosing which path to take to accomplish our common goals. We (everyone) have to compromise because we won't move forward if all we do is bicker among each other while the problems go unresolved. Down with partisan politics :thumbdn:

:)

Well on this stance I pretty much agree with most everything you posted.

but....

As long as there is a group a people willing to strap a bomb to them just to kill innocence in the name of their god

As long as Governments don't care about their people

As long as countries carry on senseless civil wars

As long as there are brutal dictators

As long as there are people who see profit as success

As long as there are groups that will try to destroy anything that resembles democracy

As long as there are people who thrive on hate

As long as there are groups who hate America ONLY because we are Americans

As long as "Allah" still tells people to kill

As long as there are people willing to take over planes and crash them into buildings

As long as there are people who try to prevent the destruction of evil people

As long as there are people who are only driven by the need to stop anything they don't personally agree with

As long as there are people who try to see good in Evil people

As long as there are good people who choose to sit back and watch evil people practice hate

As long as there are people who want choice and the ability to splurge

As long as there are people who feel hard work=success

And many more "as long as" scenarios

We will continue to live in this type of world.
It’s a choice we make. One person can make a different, but its one thing to talk about it but still be part of the problem, and its another to do something about and be part of the solution. but then again, sometimes the things some people complain about is only a problem to them.

I believe that if a person is successful in life and relishes there million and billionaire status, then good for them.

If you have built a company from the ground up, starting with 2 or 3 employees and now having thousands, then you deserve the money that comes your way. I donate quite a bit of money to several "help" organizations, but I would rather give raises to my employees and reward them for their hard work and make their lives better and provide more to their families rather than give the more money to people who are repressed because of their government or because of a situation they put themselves in.

2Lexus430s, you are able to identify the problems on the surface level, but I think you misunderstand or are unaware of the root problems from which your list stems from. It seems as if it is an accusational diabtribe aimed at Arab-Muslims. Sooner or later, I hope you learn that it takes two to tango. Muslim extremists don't relish in killing Americans just for the hell of it. There is a lot of dark history behind today's problems, and someday in the future, what is happening now will be added history to a conflict that will never end until we change our retributional mentality. Violent retalitation and forceful coercion is an obsolete tool of governments. Nationalism is a growing oppositional force and it is proven today that even the most powerful country in the world cannot go into another small, weak country and forcibly project our cultural values upon them. If we can't reform Iraq by force of arms, how do you see us doing it to the hundreds of other nations under similar circumstances?

lex, thanks for taking the time to share some of your inner thoughts and observations. Apparently, we agree on more of the core issues than I originally thought. Glad to see that. I think most people would agree with the ultimate goal of global peace and harmony, but the roadmap to that end is the most difficult part. I agree that humanity's time would be better spent building the road to a better tommorrow than standing in one spot arguing about where to build the bridge.

Originally posted by lex400sc
2Lexus430s, you are able to identify the problems on the surface level, but I think you misunderstand or are unaware of the root problems from which your list stems from. It seems as if it is an accusational diabtribe aimed at Arab-Muslims. Sooner or later, I hope you learn that it takes two to tango. Muslim extremists don't relish in killing Americans just for the hell of it.



Your right, I'm sure they take no pleasure in strapping a bomb to themselves, but they still do it. Why do you state your argument in such a way that it would make it look like we deserve this. And before you tell me how wrong I am, you are "Alluding" to it when you say, "I hope you learn that it takes two to tango. Muslim extremists don't relish in killing Americans just for the hell of it."

And so you further understand why I said this:

By saying, "it takes two to tango" you must mean that many of the reasons we are targets for terrorists are because we caused something that they are reacting to and feel we deserve to die for. By stating "Muslim extremists don't relish in killing Americans just for the hell of it" you are alluding that we brought this upon ourselves for the actions we comitted against them.

No one deserves to bie by being blow up for riding a bus or sitting in their home (not even the familys that die during an attack on either side). We make a enormous attempt to avoid killing innocent people during an attack unlike these murderous suicide bombers that only kill innocent people in the name of "Allah".

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
Your right, I'm sure they take no pleasure in strapping a bomb to themselves, but they still do it. Why do you state your argument in such a way that it would make it look like we deserve this.

By saying, "it takes two to tango" you must mean that many of the reasons we are targets for terrorists are because we caused something that they are reacting to and feel we deserve to die for.

By stating "Muslim extremists don't relish in killing Americans just for the hell of it" you are alluding that we brought this upon ourselves for the actions we comitted against them.

No one deserves to bie by being blow up for riding a bus or sitting in their home (not even the familys that die during an attack on either side).

I never said that any of us deserve to die either. I'm sure you know this about me that I don't think anyone deserves to die. Realize that all the death and dying in this world all leads back to the political leaders and their agendas. We are all merely pawns---suicide bombers, bystanders, troops, law enforcement, everyone. Bystanders and vitcims of terror attacks suffer the weight of their leaders' actions--and of course they are unfairly punished for such. Does a family leisurely drinking ice blends at a cafe on a lazy afternoon deserve to be fragged to death because they are Jewish? Of course not. They are murdered because such a murder creates an issue in the media, an outcry in the public, and conveys a message to politicians that would otherwise be ignored by them. It's a cruel and heartless means of delivering a message, but historically it seems to have worked. Fear is the greatest manipulator of public opinion. George Bush used fear to legalize a war. Hamas uses fear to regain political sovereignty.

The tone of my dialogue may appear to be sympathetic to their cause, but only because I recognize that we did instigate the violence with our predatory policies around the world. Does it mean I condone the resulting violence? No. It does mean that I recognize that we are wrong in the way we exploit and have exploited others around the world over many years, and it does mean that I recognize that escalating the violence on our end will not establish any sense of stability or peace. Has that policy succeeded for Israel in the last 30 years? Where do you think it will land us in 30 years? Our situations differ only in that Israel is introverted, while ours is extroverted. We are spreading ourselves across the entire planet pursuing a plan that doesn't even work in a country the size of Maine.

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
We make a enormous attempt to avoid killing innocent people during an attack unlike these murderous suicide bombers that only kill innocent people in the name of "Allah".

We are the most powerful power in the world. It is only crucial that we maintain a righteous, noble image in the international community--especially when the enemy is just the regime and its military. Terrorist organizations are fighting from the ground up with few resources. There targets are western influences in their land. This can be military peacekeepers, diplomats, sypathizers, etc. Again, not saying this is right. But even al Qaeda was on a PR offensive in the recent bombing in Rihad caming that they didn't target bystanders, just Americans. Our goals are completely different and thus our objectives differ as well.

The problem with your reasoning is that you make it sound like everyone in that part of the world doesn't want "western" influences on their lives. But, with the freeing of Iraq and Afghanistan, this has proved to be wrong. In actuallity, there are people who do and people who don't, those that don't just have more guns, and the means to intimidate those that do. We are not bullying other countries, we are simply giving the all the people the means to decide for themselves, not just those behind guns.

I have never been to Europe or the Middle East, but an analogy might work here. If Spain gained tremendous military power and economic power and started to install military bases in California, among other states, we would feel threatened by their presence. If Spain began conducting covert operations in our country, we would feel also feel threatened. If Spain had a hand in nationalizing our computer industry , we would feel threatened. If Spain had the power to "persuade" our government officials to support things they don't want to support, we would feel threatened by this power.

I can understand why these other nations and people feel threatened by the power of the US, but the US has done a lot more good things for the world.

Originally posted by SDuquette
The problem with your reasoning is that you make it sound like everyone in that part of the world doesn't want "western" influences on their lives. But, with the freeing of Iraq and Afghanistan, this has proved to be wrong. In actuallity, there are people who do and people who don't, those that don't just have more guns, and the means to intimidate those that do. We are not bullying other countries, we are simply giving the all the people the means to decide for themselves, not just those behind guns.


Honestly do you think it's our foreign policy to democratize the world? Since when? There is an inside strategy and an outside strategy in politics. Essentially there is what politicians tell you they are trying to do and what politicians really want to do. It is in our interest to set up more quote on quote "free-market" societies, but quite frankly our version of "free-market" makes it easier for us to manipulate and profit from other nations (at least under the current geo-economic structure). South Korea has been a free-market capitalist society for decades, but we still weren't satisfied with them, and did not allow them into the OECD until they opened up their national resources to outside influences. And free-market isn't exactly what the Republicans are doing in America. When one domestic company struggles with their superior competitors, they are offered subsidies and import protection laws. That is not true free-market capitalism. On the contrary, that falls more in line with fascism.

Democracy in Iraq consists of putting the most agreeable factions of a society into power and disenfranchising the ones that aren't cooperative with our economic interests. Of course we are entitled to pursue our own society's best interests, but when we do so forcibly abroad, we create frustrations with other people, which ultimately leads to hopeless anger, and then terrorism.

There should also be a distinction made between our noble causes and our less-than-noble causes. Less-than-noble would be our ousting of democratically-elected political parties in the Middle East and South America, and our installation of oppressive regimes (whom we thought were controllable). We also pursue predatory diplomacy in forcing other nations into allowing us to build military bases in their countries so that we have a foothold in their region. A lot of Arabs and Muslims see this as a cultural war as well. We are projecting our western values of individualism and capitalism upon a Muslim society that it is incompatible with. What may be right for us, can not be assumed to be right for everyone else. Our unilateral support for hardliners in Israel does not reflect well on us either. That was one of the catalysts for the original modern anti-West movement.

Originally posted by 93LexoGS300
I can understand why these other nations and people feel threatened by the power of the US, but the US has done a lot more good things for the world.

The United States has the capability to do a whole lot of good things in the world, such as educate the world and combat disease and environmentally destructive practices; humanitarian things, which are harder to spin into anti-west propaganda. But we don't. Instead, ours is a world of power politics. Our concerns are focused on maintaining our economic and military power and our means is by cultural imperialism and economic controls in order to stabilize our prosperity. Some think this is an okay practice, but they should also be prepared to willingly accept the consequences, one of which is rising terrorism.

Education is the most powerful tool for peace. Educate people to be self-sustaining, educate people to modern argicultural development instead of subsistance farming, educate people on efficient infrastructure, and educate people on healthy living. Educate people in basic language, math, and science so that their societies may progress and flourish on their own. Educate people to decifer brain-washing propaganda from reality so that the influence of extremists and hardliners dwindles. Educate people to give them choices and let them weigh for themselves the benefits of capitalism and democracy. Foreign aid and relief packages do nothing but hurt people. They are short-sighted solutions to major prolbems and they breed dependancy and strengthen the control leaders have over people. Loans do nothing but tie the hands of national governments because often there are mandates placed on IMF aid that relinquish control of national resources to multi-national corporations.

Rather than side-step what I said, why not reply to it, what about those that do want to have our freedoms in their country? They are murdered and prisoned for wanting to be able to have what we have. Yet, like I said, the one with the most guns runs the country, first it was the minority of people with guns and money, now us, except I would venture to say we are a little more reasonable than our predecessors.

Originally posted by SDuquette
Rather than side-step what I said, why not reply to it, what about those that do want to have our freedoms in their country? They are murdered and prisoned for wanting to be able to have what we have.

I wasn't "side-stepping", I was bringing greater clarity to the situation, but apparently you are uncomfortable with that, so I'll remain focused on the myopia of your argument.

A more accurate depiction of that statement would be: those who *choose* to be politically active and vocally critical of Saddam were murdered and imprisoned for being so. The majority of Iraq lived in relative peace making their livings quietly and successfully. Those that were jailed or murdered did not deserve their fate, but they chose their destiny.

Let's not forget that Iraq had the best education system in the Middle East under Saddam, and that was something that was built up under the Ba'ath regime. Today we are rebuilding those schools we blew up, and the reason you don't hear about this "good news" in the media is because it's a catch-22. School attendance is below 10% in Iraq. People are too afraid to show up at school. Iraq is a hellhole today. You have two opposing forces engaging in sporadic urban battles in the middle of innocent people's neighborhoods, then you have the opportunists who pillage and rape anyone they think they can take advantage of. Even the Iraqi civilian police are guilty of this. They take bribes for jobs and god knows what else.

Originally posted by lex400sc
Education is the most powerful tool for peace. Educate people to be self-sustaining, educate people to modern argicultural development instead of subsistance farming, educate people on efficient infrastructure, and educate people on healthy living. Educate people in basic language, math, and science so that their societies may progress and flourish on their own. Educate people to decifer brain-washing propaganda from reality so that the influence of extremists and hardliners dwindles. Educate people to give them choices and let them weigh for themselves the benefits of capitalism and democracy. Foreign aid and relief packages do nothing but hurt people. .
Exactly, that's why I put education on the same level as food, shelter, and clothing.

Education = Power

Originally posted by lex400sc
Let's not forget that Iraq had the best education system in the Middle East under Saddam, and that was something that was built up under the Ba'ath regime. Today we are rebuilding those schools we blew up, and the reason you don't hear about this "good news" in the media is because it's a catch-22. School attendance is below 10% in Iraq. People are too afraid to show up at school. Iraq is a hellhole today. You have two opposing forces engaging in sporadic urban battles in the middle of innocent people's neighborhoods, then you have the opportunists who pillage and rape anyone they think they can take advantage of. Even the Iraqi civilian police are guilty of this. They take bribes for jobs and god knows what else.

I've never heard of Iraq having the "best education system in the milddle east under Saddam". Please quote a viable source for this information. I was aware of how Saddam twisted history around his own political agenda in schools. I was also under the impression that Iraqi Women we not permitted to attend schools, only the older women could teach. Please quote a source (outside of an Iraq promoted media source) that says we bombed a single school. The Iraqi police force was just like the Iraqi military under Saddam's control, they would kill and prosacute people for doing exactly what Your doing now, speaking against the administration. Did you not watch all the videos they showed on the News of people getting tortured in public?

You always speak of human rights, well what about the rights of the Iraqi people. Don't you understand that you would suffer the same punishment as "those who *choose* to be politically active and vocally critical".. YOU WOULD BE KILLED IN PUBLIC, and anyone who chose to start an uprise would be killed as well.

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
The Iraqi police force was just like the Iraqi military under Saddam's control, they would kill and prosacute people for doing exactly what Your doing now, speaking against the administration. Did you not watch all the videos they showed on the News of people getting tortured in public?

You always speak of human rights, well what about the rights of the Iraqi people. Don't you understand that you would suffer the same punishment as "those who *choose* to be politically active and vocally critical".. YOU WOULD BE KILLED IN PUBLIC, and anyone who chose to start an uprise would be killed as well.

This post exists only be cause you failed to read this....

Originally posted by lex400sc
A more accurate depiction of that statement would be: those who *choose* to be politically active and vocally critical of Saddam were murdered and imprisoned for being so. The majority of Iraq lived in relative peace making their livings quietly and successfully. Those that were jailed or murdered did not deserve their fate, but they chose their destiny.

Originally posted by lex400sc
A more accurate depiction of that statement would be: those who *choose* to be politically active and vocally critical of Saddam were murdered and imprisoned for being so. The majority of Iraq lived in relative peace making their livings quietly and successfully.
I think another addition to this statement should be made.

The majority of Iraq lived in relative peace making their livings quietly and successfully by keeping their mouths shut because they were afraid of being imprisoned or murdered if they expressed negative opinions about their government.

Originally posted by lex400sc
Those that were jailed or murdered did not deserve their fate, but they chose their destiny.
Their destiny was chosen by a dictator who murdered people for exercising a basic right we sometimes take for granted: freedom of speech.

A more accurate depiction of that statement would be: those who *choose* to be politically active and vocally critical of Saddam were murdered and imprisoned for being so. The majority of Iraq lived in relative peace making their livings quietly and successfully. Those that were jailed or murdered did not deserve their fate, but they chose their destiny.

I thought everyone would be able to see the double standard with this information you posted, thats the reason it wasn't relivant to what I posted. Saddam was known to have killed innocent people just to scare anyone who would think of oposing him.

wow, you not only sympothize with Saddam, but you would actually speak up, like you do in here, but tell Iraqi’s not too. This is a huge double standard, but I guess they just choose their destiny like that. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
I thought everyone would be able to see the double standard with this information you posted, thats the reason it wasn't relivant to what I posted. Saddam was known to have killed innocent people just to scare anyone who would think of oposing him.

wow, you not only sympothize with Saddam, but you would actually speak up, like you do in here, but tell Iraqi’s not too. This is a huge double standard, but I guess they just choose their destiny like that. :rolleyes:


I see we're back to old tricks of putting words in my mouth and demonizing me to boost your own credibility. I also know you have selective reading comprehension and you like to overlook words like this: "A more accurate depiction of that statement would be". My whole point was that I was clarifying an inaccurate statement someone else made. You can be "wow"ed by whatever dellusional implications that holds for you all you want, but keep it to yourself.

There is no double-standard because another tidbit your selective comprehension omitted is that I never condoned any of the murder and imprisonment the Ba'ath carried out. You keep digressing the contraversy of this war into an issue over the political persecutions. Six months ago your aim was WMD. You know your logic is full of holes when you are constantly adapting to new criticisms by shifting your defense around.

Originally posted by lex400sc
I see we're back to old tricks of putting words in my mouth and demonizing me to boost your own credibility. I also know you have selective reading comprehension and you like to overlook words like this: "A more accurate depiction of that statement would be". My whole point was that I was clarifying an inaccurate statement someone else made. You can be "wow"ed by whatever dellusional implications that holds for you all you want, but keep it to yourself.

There is no double-standard because another tidbit your selective comprehension omitted is that I never condoned any of the murder and imprisonment the Ba'ath carried out. You keep digressing the contraversy of this war into an issue over the political persecutions. Six months ago your aim was WMD. You know your logic is full of holes when you are constantly adapting to new criticisms by shifting your defense around.

Why are you getting so up tight about it? Don't you put words into the President's mouth everytime you think he "Alluding" to something?

You may not SAY you condone it, but you do point out everything we did to deserve it.

Do you not understand this simple fact... You have made GOOD points about Saddam and his followers, but you can't come up with one Good point about Bush... So yeah, I do think that you condone many things they do to hurt Americans. Bush does good things all the time, he banned Partial Birth Abortions (Unless the mother's life is at risk), he funded millions to Aids Research and is trying to create a cleaner form of fuel.. But instead of even mentioning this, it seams like it would better suite your agenda to spin this and point out some liberal point that would make him seam like its for some reason only to hurt us.

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
Why are you getting so up tight about it? Don't you put words into the President's mouth everytime you think he "Alluding" to something?

You are saying that I shouldn't be offended that you put mallicious words in my mouth... ON THE PREMISE THAT... "I said Bush alluded to something" when in fact my allegations (against him and not you) are backed with his own words as well as a string of respectible news articles that confirm it? This argument makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
You may not SAY you condone it, but you do point out everything we did to deserve it.

In order for this statement to be true, I would first have to say that victims of terrorism deserved their fate. Please quote me where I make mention of that.

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
Do you not understand this simple fact... You have made GOOD points about Saddam and his followers, but you can't come up with one Good point about Bush... So yeah, I do think that you condone many things they do to hurt Americans.

What has Saddam done to hurt Americans? He has had the means to attack America for many decades, and he's had ample cause to do so, but he never did. I'm totally inline with you all in saying Saddam wasn't a good person, or a good leader, but he wasn't the devil. You are lumping groups of people together in order to build up this incredibly evil hellbent madman. I'm only here to point out that this is not the case.

Originally posted by 2Lexus430s
Bush does good things all the time, he banned Partial Birth Abortions (Unless the mother's life is at risk), he funded millions to Aids Research and is trying to create a cleaner form of fuel.. But instead of even mentioning this, it seams like it would better suite your agenda to spin this and point out some liberal point that would make him seam like its for some reason only to hurt us.

Clinton was the one who initiated the $340 million AIDS package to Africa. Bush is extending this fund to regain leverage with the UN. Clinton received a lot of praise from the UN and Africa for his AIDS proposal, and without a doubt, Bush needs some of that international love right now. Under a healthy economy, I would praise such action regardless who did it or what the motive. But I think the only good thing Bush can do now is scale down spending in "defense" and foreign expenditures until we recover internally.

Bush's environmental record is a devastating. He might have signed a bill to research cleaner fuel, but I'm curious to see the details of that for myself. I am already convinced that Bush couldn't care less about the environment. I'm not "speaking for him" when I say that, his laws speak for themselves.