Lexus has talked a lot of crap the last couple of years about bringing the brand upscale. They have hired an advertising agency out of NY to help them achieve this, and there are widely circulated rumours that Lexus is working on a sports car that would use a V10 engine derived from Toyota's F1 car. I was excited at first, and still am, but latest rumours have this engine at 400 hp. Again, if you want to make a $150,000 sports car, you better put in more ponies than that. 400 hp is hardly anything to get excited about when you mention sports car nowadays.

The fact of the matter is, Lexus is losing ground to MB and BMW in the performance area. Yes, Lexus is the best in quality and reliability without doubt. However, Cadillac has jumped to second place, and I believe the other big boys will make improvements in the next few years. The truth is, reliability and quality won't sell as much b/c let's face it, cars are getting better and better each year no matter what brand. MB and BMW are right up there (Except the M Class piece of crap is hurting MB's JD power surveys) and function ALMOST as well as a Lexus. So what is left? Well design and hp. Both of these lack world class status when you mention Lexus. Don't get me wrong, I own a Lexus and I love my car. But I'm getting fed up with these weak designs, and Lexus' reluctance to put some real power into their V8s. This new GS? Hardly a design winner, and the 4.3 L V8 has been in that car for 4 years by the time the 06 is out. Look at the front headlights? Does that scream upscale to you? Definitely not to me, and I won't even go into the Maxima look, I had a hard time with that yesterday.

In any event look at MB. They have a seven speed automatic transmission (Lexus missed the boat on this one again), their collission system on the S class is far superior to that of LS and they are working on an even far superior one for the next S class. Lexus is not keeping up in the technology race either. They are losing here too.

Lexus needs to start hiring some U.S. managers who will make the decisions for the brand. The conservative Japanese are reluctant to add power to their cars and as the Generation Y grows older, you won't see Lexus and Toyota sell as many cars. They need to build a high performance division for Lexus and some top notch designers and they will be back on track. Lexus only sold 21,000 units in all of Europe last year. Hardly anything to boast about. Truth is, their sales success is only happening in the U.S. Worldwide, they are hardly a hit. If they keep producing these clones and keep using the same engines as Toyota with very few hp, then they will never bring the brand upscale.

Whether you like it or not, hp is part of luxury nowadays. You don't need 400, 500 hp. But if other manufacturers are willing to give it to you, why doesn't Lexus? When Lexus came in 1990 and kicked MB's butt in the STates (MB is kicking their butt everywhere else in the world), MB responded. It took them a few years, but they did. It's time for Lexus to respond. 300 hp will hardly make a noise.

Lastly, I'm not trying to offend anyone b/c I myself am a Lexus owner. I just want to have the option of having something more to boast about than quality. The quality talk frankly, is getting old. Especially since you have to really try to buy a poor quality luxury car.

I have seen the GS introduction and it is correct, Denny Clements never mentions hp. Only that it is powered by a 4.3 V8. So it seems more hp will be coming, but I am betting that Toyota won't put in more than 15 ponies. They are too conservative. Just as the 2001 LS only received some 20 additional lbs of torque, the 2006 GS will be no different.

But if other manufacturers are willing to give it to you, why doesn't Lexus?

B/C they rather feed you HP figures then getting the radio to work and window to roll down.

Some of ya'll think it's that easy, to just SQUEEZE HP outta an engine
:egads:

lexmaster, your posts, all 16 of them are getting very redundant at this point.

Lexus already said they WILL NOT get into a horsepower/performance war, there was never any doubt of that. They are a LUXURY BRAND first and foremost. AMG and M lines are SPORT BRANDS ifrst luxury second. Jim Press's exact words were they won't be everything to everyone. They have their niche and that's where they are content to play.

Besides look at the sales of the current GS4, vs the 3, do you really think that Lexus/Toyota is going to spend millions of dollars in creating a "racing brand" like an AMG or M and it take off immediately??? Look at what happend to L-Tuned (granted it wasn't what any of us hoped for), but honestly they don't feel that there's enough market for "them" to get excited over.

Additionally, they don't have the perceived racing history/bloodlines that the german makers do.

As far as calling bringing the brand upscale "talking crap" they are going upscale, upscale luxury, because some people interpreted it differently (i.e. performance) doesn't mean Lexus fell behind on anything. The only thing they fell behind on was yours (and I'm sure others) expectations of what the new model's performance would be...and even that is not set in stone right now as evidenced by the conspicuous lack of detail on the V-8 or other powerplants and drive systems.

Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
B/C they rather feed you HP figures then getting the radio to work and window to roll down.

Some of ya'll think it's that easy, to just SQUEEZE HP outta an engine
:egads:

lexmaster, your posts, all 16 of them are getting very redundant at this point.

Come on now, anyone who dropped a 430 into a 98 GS deserves some respect.

Originally posted by RON430
Come on now, anyone who dropped a 430 into a 98 GS deserves some respect.

AHAHAHHAA LOL..

I think it's the default car selection when you setup your profile. LOL

:agree: LOL...it IS the default

I'll play devil's advocate and agree to some extent with lexmaster. Why? Because I think if Lexus had actually announced yesterday that they were going to replace the 4.3 V8 with a 4.5 or 4.7 V8 capable of anywhere between 325 and say, 350hp if not more, I think a significant number of people would be calling it a 5-series slayer or E-class killer. I feel that alone would be the decision-maker for those on the fence about it's new design. Now the only people that would really benefit by no engine change would be GS300 buyers, as the hp gap now narrows to 55 instead of 80. First the GS V8 lost steering wheel shifting (I realize this was necessary for the 4.3), then they got no Sport Design, now they get no AWD and possibly no power increase! At this point, why not just go back to one GS model and give it about 275 hp for about 45k? I do have a question though: what engine could they upgrade to, in say 2008 that would keep them from alienating owners of the 4.3? Is a 4.7 the next logical choice, and if so, would they only keep it at around 320 hp? Otherwise, based on their lifecycle history, wouldn't we be looking at almost 15 years then with around 300 hp by the time they go to replace this GS?

Originally posted by lexmaster
So it seems more hp will be coming, but I am betting that Toyota won't put in more than 15 ponies. They are too conservative.

Oh you mean they might bring it up to the same HP as the BRAND NEW 545i?

I guess those dying for more HP think of E55's, M5's, etc., of which those manufacturers sell miniscule numbers, and which most of the people on here who compare to them could never afford one. :rolleyes:

guess those dying for more HP think of E55's, M5's, etc., of which those manufacturers sell miniscule numbers, and which most of the people on here who compare to them could never afford one

BITSLAPPED!

Originally posted by bitkahuna
Oh you mean they might bring it up to the same HP as the BRAND NEW 545i?

I guess those dying for more HP think of E55's, M5's, etc., of which those manufacturers sell miniscule numbers, and which most of the people on here who compare to them could never afford one. :rolleyes:
LMAO,Bitslapped.

1Sick, while I was typing, your post already in there..:D

Maybe everyone was spoiled by the fact that when the 2nd gen GS400 debuted it was one of, if not THE fastest sedans in the world. Now it is content just to keep pace overall. I mean, technologically it doesn't really set itself far apart from either MB or BMW. I don't recall any WOW! gadgets announced (although maybe they have something up their sleeve). Heck, they got rid of I think, one of the cooler features, Optitron gauges. After looking at all the pics up close, I'm not as excited as I thought from watching the video. I guess I'm just underwhelmed, if only because I've been looking at the same car for 7 years with no real change. I guess Something Wicked This Way doesn't Come. :(

You just have to love the comments on the new GS. Vendors must really be in love with the customers here. No one yet has put their "little tooshie" (sorry but with the Governator in Cali this is trying to replace bling as the most juvenile words in the popular lexicon) in a new GS and yet the lines have been drawn in the sand about how either Lexus hit it out of the park or has lost untold future sales. To those of you who have posted that you will make decisions after seeing the car for real and driving it for yourselves, congratulations! It's nice to have a few more adults here.

After almost three days of thrashing my GS around Laguna Seca, two things stood out.

1.) It was just amazing that I could drive that car as hard as I and others did for three days and at the end there wasn't a squeak or rattle in the car.

2.) The E55 and M5 that were there for other purposes, but which I had a chance to drive, both left on trailers after, I'll try to be nice, becoming undriveable.

As I posted elsewhere, my biggest complaint with the current GS was suspension, not power. And for those of you who have lives beyond the internet, it was interesting that DWTV (German TV version of Auto Motor und Sport) did an e500/545 comparo that ran last weekend and in the 0-62 (0-100kmh) obligatory numbers, the bimmer was at 6.4 and the merc at 6.5 seconds - hardly earth shattering.

But once again we can see just how many people here decide whether or not to purchase $50K+ automobiles based on a handful of pictures and a spec sheet. Amazing. And the fact that bimmer sales were down 5% in December with the 5 well in dealer's hands just doesn't matter. That Infiniti's 345hp has yet to translate into quicker accelertion than the "underpowered" Lexus competition just doesn't seem to grab folks attention. 345 has to be better than 300, it's bigger.

If usable horsepower matters to you, save yourself some grief and watch the new corvette. If they make the enhanced version with the 427, it is for you. Next event for me in the GS evolution is to see what Lexus has in store for pricing on the GS. $58K 530's leave me very cold.

1998 GS430 is the "default"?

Originally posted by LexusPride
Heck, they got rid of I think, one of the cooler features, Optitron gauges.

Yes, they got rid of the too dim dashboard - THANK GOD! Look at the number of posts on this board regarding the guages not being bright enough (myself included). The removal of this "feature" is a good thing IMHO. Sometimes the cool features just don't work so well.

Personally, the only thing that I don't like about the new GS is that it seems to have come from the RX part bin. From the wheels,to the steering wheel, to the dash, all very similar to an RX330 - and damn, wouldn't you know it, another freggin wood steering wheel. To this day, I don't know why Lexus does that - especially in a "performance" car. It may look "cool" but it sucks in functionality.

Amen. After having a Supra with plain ol' analog gauges I was happy to see the new GS sack the Optitron. I may not hate it but this mad rush to improve things that don't need improving, baffles me. Not sure there has ever been anything much better than white numbers on a black background. Lexus isn't stupid, if the Optitron was a big success it would still be there.

And I'll take my steering wheel good sized and entirely in leather, thank you.

the next GS300 will beat E320 and 530i in HP, which is good.
the next GS430 doesn't have much improvement in HP but it doesn't suck in anyway. Still in the same ballpark.

I'm somewhat disappointed that Lexus did not improve the HP number in the GS430. It's not that the V8 isn't already fast enough. It's that the car is under major redesign model shift yet they don't even add 1hp.

But I'm sure the next GS will be a strong contender against the E and the 5. Like 1sick said, getting windows to roll down and the radio to work is more important than having more HP. Toyota probably sell 200 times as many Corollas as M5s because it's a reliable little car. The craftsmanship on the Corolla is probably better than the M5 (at least better than the 3 and 5 series)

I love my Lexus, but I do believe Lexus is falling behind. Honestly, look at their cars. Yes, Lexus is the #1 selling luxury plate. But they get these sales not in their sedan sales but in their SUV's (namely the RX330). Go through the line, the IS300 is greatly outsold by the Bimmer 3 series (and rightfully so). The ES is outsold by the TL. The GS is outsold by both the Merc E and the BMW 5. The SC430 is outsold by the Merc CLK's. I have to admit I am not sure of the LS430, I think it may hold it's own better then the other cars.

Lexus does make great cars, no doubt about it. But so does the competition. Lexus makes a new model and it does sell well, for 1 year, maybe two. After the initial fanfare, sales generally drop do substandard levels. How can the 3 series still sell so well after all these years without any real upgrades while the IS has dropped off the map? Same thing with our beloved GS. Look how few are sold compared to even last years outdate 5 series. I state this again, if it were not for the truck line Lexus would not be half the size they are now.

I do not think, like others on this board, that Lexus needs to compete with the M5, E55 and RS6. But they need to compete with the standard E320 and 530. Lexus built up so much anticipation, saying the next GS was going to change the company and set a new tone. I see the same tone coming up. The GS will sell well for it's first model year, and then slump back down to third best (in sales, not quality) to it's competition. Seems like standard old Lexus to me...

1Sick, while I was typing, your post already in there..

:D The ES is outsold by the TL. The GS is outsold by both the Merc E and the BMW 5. The SC430 is outsold by the Merc CLK's

Add ES and IS sales vs TL, since they are the same price.
GS has 2 models, E has 3 sedans, 2 wagons, 5 has 4 sedans, 2 wagons
SC 430 loaded, CLK has 3 models.

Originally posted by theanimala
The ES is outsold by the TL.

YTD 2003 sales (as of September) recorded by autosite.com:

ES3: 47,453
TL: 39,278

The ES has a 21% lead on the TL.

The LS430 is currently just under 400 units behind the S-class.

But I do agree, the GS300, GS430, and IS300 sales are very poor. IS300 sales are down 50% compared to last year. Lexus sells more ES330's in TWO weeks than GS430's all year :egads:

well personally i think lexus is sorta slipping a bit. if you look at what nissan
did to infinity and their lineup, thats pretty amazing from a company in the hole
to one that is starting the trend. it's all about their new upper management. as
for lexus, i personally think they should offer a line of high-end perfomance.
such as AMG and what not. it's not so much for the "SALES" aspects and profit.
but it's more so for the desire and want for it, which will boost up the sales of other
cars in their line. many companies do this. GMC made typhoon/syclone for
status, not for profit so they could prove that they can make a truck which can beat
a corvette. they obviously didn't do it for profit cuz they only made 3000 sy's and
4700 ty's. it just boosts up sales within their other models. makes the
brand more desireable and it's just bragging rights for the company. why else does
M-5 and e55 keep on trying to out-do each other... not for profit. almost everyone
does this, ford lightning, ford cobra, audi s4, rs6, s8, benz, bmw, subaru wrx sti,
mitsubishi evo, chevrolet z06, jag s-typeR, Cadillac CTS V, phaeton w12 just to name
a few. these are just high-end with added performance. lexus would just need one
line, a gs430 w/ a supercharger or turbo. then all lexus owners can say
"the gs430 turbo can take that e55/m5 on" it's not for everyone to BUY one,
but its so everyone can say "lexus can and does make a performance car too." and
for everyone to want a lexus.
anyhow this is my opinion.

as for the new GS style. one reason lexus doesn't dramatically change their design
is because of re-sale value. this is why the ls430 changes only slightly between models.
look at how older benz's sell. the old style always have bad resale value. this is
something lexus does on purpose. the one that they did a huge makeover was the SC.

also, btw i heard rumors that lexus is going to start a high-end line to compete against
"S" class and more. suppose to have a v12 or something. maybe even compete
against the maybach. rumors of course.

Lexus sedans are doing fine in sales against any of the competitors in the entry level lux and premium lux segments despite having much fewer model choices. It's in the mid-size lux (GS) that they are lagging badly against the 5 series and E class. I had high hopes for new GS to have a killer design and features to help Lexus gain significant grounds in sales in this segment, but looking at the new car, while it can compete well with the others, it looks like it won't be good enough to win many new customers from other brands to make it one of the sales leader in this segment. I also doubt they will have a high performance line of cars like M and AMG. However, they will probably have hybrid versions of Lexus sedans in the future that are powerful but still have good fuel economy. They are the leader right now in hybrid technology.

As for Europe, it's not a level playing field for Lexus as it is in North America, where Japanese & German luxury cars are both imports. Lexus are much more expensive in Europe, while the Benz 's & Bimmers are relatively cheap as compared to they are here, not to mention their much longer heritage. In many European countries, Lexus still doesn't have a well established dealership network, some are still sold in Toyota dealerships. They may have to start manufacturing Lexus in Europe in the future before they can gain significant grounds in the luxury market there.

on that note of the GS... it's sad the new model isn't jaw dropping.
i mean if they did it right, they really could have turned lexus around.

look at what the TL did for acura... totally a new perspective on them now...
right when people were starting to lose faith in them.

just like nissan... first altima and x-tera... then redo their whole line-up.
totally changes the company and gives them a re-birth. now look at what
infinity is showing... IMHO, infinity cars are more appealing than new lexus
designs (GS and SC.) you didn't hear a lot of people saying... "i want that
SC" but i'm hearing everyone wanting the new TL. i'm guessing the new
GS will get about the same enthusiasm as the SC got.

While I have not seen the sales breakdown for EOY 2003, something tells me that Lexus car sales were down this year and their truck sales were way up. I'm pretty sure the TL will beat the ES in the sales race now that the new one is out and I know GS sales are in the tank. But their RX330 had sales of almost 100,000 and the new GX just added to the truck total. Neither the X5 or ML sell in that range. My point is that I'll bet Lexus lost the sales race in terms of cars. Obviously in combined cars/trucks they won.

I wonder which they make more money off of? :)

Maybe Lexus has just faced what the other companies haven’t. You WILL get to the point to where you cannot make the car any faster. Going from 10 seconds zero to 60 to 8 would be easy, getting from 5.1 to 4.7 or 4.7 to 4.4 isn’t easy without spending major cash which would take these standard 4 door luxury sedans way out of the price range they are in.

EVERYONE will hit this brick wall sooner or later, Lexus is just facing it now. Hopefully with the new 6 speed, your looking at a 5.6-5.7 zero to 60 in your 4 door luxury sedan. The car does not need to be any faster then that.

Originally posted by doug_999
While I have not seen the sales breakdown for EOY 2003, something tells me that Lexus car sales were down this year and their truck sales were way up. I'm pretty sure the TL will beat the ES in the sales race now that the new one is out and I know GS sales are in the tank. But their RX330 had sales of almost 100,000 and the new GX just added to the truck total. Neither the X5 or ML sell in that range. My point is that I'll bet Lexus lost the sales race in terms of cars. Obviously in combined cars/trucks they won.

I wonder which they make more money off of? :)

The profit margins of SUV's are higher.

BTW, the RX330 is a car not a truck. If it's a car-based platform, it's a car.
Only the GX & LX are truck-based.

The car does not need to be any faster then that.
Well, says who? I mean, if the car put out 40 more horse, and put the 0-60 down to 5.4 or 5.5, would it actually HURT sales? Would the extra .2 or .3 seconds make some people say "whoa, now that's too fast." I think by just staying even with MB and BMW in this class (sport / luxury ?), reliability alone won't necessarily put them over the top, if sales figures are any indication. And since a large percentage of members on this board are diehard fans and this still doesn't cause any real uproar of positive emotion, what is the incentive to plunk down between $40-and 60k for a vehicle that isn't all that much nicer or faster, eight years later? This is the evolution we had to wait for?

Originally posted by LexusPride
Well, says who? I mean, if the car put out 40 more horse, and put the 0-60 down to 5.4 or 5.5, would it actually HURT sales? Would the extra .2 or .3 seconds make some people say "whoa, now that's too fast." I think by just staying even with MB and BMW in this class (sport / luxury ?), reliability alone won't necessarily put them over the top, if sales figures are any indication. And since a large percentage of members on this board are diehard fans and this still doesn't cause any real uproar of positive emotion, what is the incentive to plunk down between $40-and 60k for a vehicle that isn't all that much nicer or faster, eight years later? This is the evolution we had to wait for?




For a daily driver, I have never been big on the HP crap, once in a while a piece of me will want a M5 or Rs6, then reality sets in and says yeah I am in stop and go traffic right now, what a waste it would be. I want a sports car or project car one day with a ton o HP, but for a daily driver why does a car need to be any faster then 5.6-7 zero to 60?

I am looking at this from a business perspective, I don’t see the average GS buyer really caring about the HP. The car has plenty of power for the sports\luxury enthusiasts. Yeah this forum has a ton of enthusiasts, but in the real world I see older people driving these cars who can car less about HP, mods and never even heard of Club Lexus.

I have maybe once or twice come across someone young at the Lexus dealer, and if they were they were looking at Is300’s or used GS’s etc. The group of people buying these cars new can really care less if this thing came with 300hp or 345hp, that extra 45hp wouldn’t keep them from buying the car.


"Well, says who? I mean, if the car put out 40 more horse, and put the 0-60 down to 5.4 or 5.5, would it actually HURT sales? "


My main point is, say they did that and added another 45hp. Then what next time? You would still want another 20-30hp? Then the next time you want another 30-40hp, you’re always going to be wanting. It will get to a point where they cannot add more HP or get the zero to 60 times down anymore without it being costly; they see a nice balance in their car now and their going to roll with it. They have a solid engine with the 430, if anything they are going to work on better gas mileage and emissions, not adding 45 more hp that will suck up more gas.

lexus is slipping...

lexus is falling behind...

lexus needs to turn it around...

You guys have it all wrong. Sure the 2nd gen GS sales have been slipping, it was launched in 97! The IS not beating 3 series in sales? Get a clue, BMW has had 30+ years head start. The LS does very well. The ES does very well. The new GS will do well. The SUVs are flying out of dealerships.

Man you guys are sooo negative.

Originally posted by bitkahuna


Man you guys are sooo negative.

I agree!!:(

For a while I thought maybe this thread would escape the ranting on some of the other '05 GS threads, even though it started out that way. The first thing that I think a Lexus buyer would not accept is poor reliability. If you want to kill this brand, that is about the biggest single thing that will do it. A lot of us here are very wary about the GX for just that reason. If you look at the more common complaints about the Lexus models here, they are still quite minor and thankfully not very widespread. If the worst complaint I had about a bimmer was a ticking from the sunshade, I would very likely still be driving one. If the new GS has reliability problems, Lexus has a big problem.

Second, for me, and it is close with my next point, is suspension. I definitely don't find the stock Lexus ride, especially on the GS430, to be in any form "performance" oriented or even very luxurious. The disclaimer is that even for an old fart I am probably willing to give up more ride compliance than others in this area to get what I consider "safe" handling. I hope the new GS has been to finishing school because it doesn't cost a lot to get the handling up but ride is somewhat compromised. Other than announcing some atomic powered, ball bearing equiped, air suspension, no one knows what is underneath the new GS nor how it is in the real world.

Third is value. As far as I know, the pricing for the new GS has not been even rumored. I do like hp, to an extent. I am not a fan of paying for the mileage penalty. But would 340 or 350hp make me comfortable with a $70K sticker? Nope. And believe me, the 530 stickers I have seen have been low-mid to high 50s so I expect the 545 is going to be nudging $70K and simply, it ain't that good. If there is anything to guess about it is the lead from this introduction to sales. If the salesman that I talked to is right, the new GS will be out in Jan '05, that's a long way off. I don't believe there are a lot of major changes to the exterior to what was introduced this week. But some running gear changes? Maybe. If the rumored 5l is true, it will go into the LS and SC as well. You just might be able to make a case that early next year everybody (including the IS - wouldn't that be intriguing) goes 5l and maybe picks up those few extra horses that a few seem to feel is required to stop the ruination of Lexus.

Now I may not even be justified a comment because while I think the new GS is a pretty reasonable update, I think I am more interested in getting an LS next time. The opinions that count most are from the folks that are willing to back it up with their checkbooks. And, once again, if the reliability, handling, and/or price of the GS are disappointing, that means more to me than a few hp that I rarely if ever get a chance to use, but get to pay for at the gas pump every few days. I often think when I am stuck in silicon valley rush hour how much I need at least 400hp because when the cab in front of me moves those five feet, it is important that I fill it in another millisecond quicker to keep the SUV next to me from getting in front of me. How can I be expected to live with just 300hp?

All I've got to say is this: I love Lexus (and Toyota too :D). I very much admire cars like Ferraris, Astons, etc. I even give respect to BMW, MB, and Jaguar.

But I couldn't see myself driving any of them. There is just something special about Lexus. My dream car is an LS-whatever-it's-called-by-the-time-I'm-able-to-afford-one. And whatever other RWD sedans Lexus will have you at that time. As long as the car gets from 0-60 in around 6 seconds, that's fine with me. The point is that no car will ever ride like a Lexus. No car will ever be built like a Lexus. No car will ever have such well-thought-out design as Lexus.

Conservative? Maybe. But that doesn't mean they're boring. Most people on this site are well below the median age of Lexus buyers. We're a minority that will take a great car and, if we see fit, turbo it, upgrade suspension, etc. to suit our tastes, needs, and wants. Or just leave it alone because it's just that damn good.

Fine, so MB and BMW give you performance. But, IMHO, they're still miles away from many exclusive Lexus attributes.

And as Bit pointed out, people tend to forget that it was only 15 years ago this month that Lexus was unveiled to the public. If you'll be around in 50 years or so, then you can criticise Lexus for not having enough power.

Have you seen the recent C&D luxo-sedan comparo? Guess who came in first...Ahead of BMW, MB, Jaguar, and Audi...Oh yeah, LEXUS!

And if you want to look at it from a totally objective standpoint, there will always be an aging segment of the population to support Lexus.

And Lexus is smart for not getting involved in HP wars. That tells you they're FOCUSED. Focused on their original mission. And Lexus was designed specifically for America anyway. Who cares what the rest of the world thinks right now? Again, just give them some time.

The new GS is slowly but surely growing on me. And I can't wait to see the next wave of cars, like the LS, IS, and maybe even a new sports car if some of those rumors are true.

The point is that Lexus has no problems holding its own. They may not be able to consistently out-accelerate and out-handle the competition, but they can at least keep up. Not to mention that they've the competition beat on just about all other fronts.

Here's to the next 15 years of Lexus success! :thumbup:

Originally posted by RON430
For a while I thought maybe this thread would escape the ranting on some of the other '05 GS threads, even though it started out that way. The first thing that I think a Lexus buyer would not accept is poor reliability. If you want to kill this brand, that is about the biggest single thing that will do it. A lot of us here are very wary about the GX for just that reason. If you look at the more common complaints about the Lexus models here, they are still quite minor and thankfully not very widespread. If the worst complaint I had about a bimmer was a ticking from the sunshade, I would very likely still be driving one. If the new GS has reliability problems, Lexus has a big problem.

Second, for me, and it is close with my next point, is suspension. I definitely don't find the stock Lexus ride, especially on the GS430, to be in any form "performance" oriented or even very luxurious. The disclaimer is that even for an old fart I am probably willing to give up more ride compliance than others in this area to get what I consider "safe" handling. I hope the new GS has been to finishing school because it doesn't cost a lot to get the handling up but ride is somewhat compromised. Other than announcing some atomic powered, ball bearing equiped, air suspension, no one knows what is underneath the new GS nor how it is in the real world.

Third is value. As far as I know, the pricing for the new GS has not been even rumored. I do like hp, to an extent. I am not a fan of paying for the mileage penalty. But would 340 or 350hp make me comfortable with a $70K sticker? Nope. And believe me, the 530 stickers I have seen have been low-mid to high 50s so I expect the 545 is going to be nudging $70K and simply, it ain't that good. If there is anything to guess about it is the lead from this introduction to sales. If the salesman that I talked to is right, the new GS will be out in Jan '05, that's a long way off. I don't believe there are a lot of major changes to the exterior to what was introduced this week. But some running gear changes? Maybe. If the rumored 5l is true, it will go into the LS and SC as well. You just might be able to make a case that early next year everybody (including the IS - wouldn't that be intriguing) goes 5l and maybe picks up those few extra horses that a few seem to feel is required to stop the ruination of Lexus.

Now I may not even be justified a comment because while I think the new GS is a pretty reasonable update, I think I am more interested in getting an LS next time. And, once again, if the reliability, handling, and/or price of the GS are disappointing, that means more to me than a few hp that I rarely if ever get a chance to use, but get to pay for at the gas pump every few days. I often think when I am stuck in silicon valley rush hour how much I need at least 400hp because when the cab in front of me moves those five feet, it is important that I fill it in another millisecond quicker to keep the SUV next to me from getting in front of me. How can I be expected to live with just 300hp?

530 around here without the sports package, around 52k!! I was betting on getting a new AWD GS 330 ML\NAV for under 50k, we shall see. The 530 with the sports package and other options is like 56k. I love that car, but ouch.

Originally posted by jpa2400
530 around here without the sports package, around 52k!! I was betting on getting a new AWD GS 330 ML\NAV for under 50k, we shall see. The 530 with the sports package and other options is like 56k. I love that car, but ouch.

I haven't spent a lot of time looking at them but I had a chance to go for a drive in one a friend was looking at and with an automatic it was right at 58K sticker. The dealer wanted 5 over that (don't reach for the calculator - $63K) plus tax and license. My friend didn't go for it.

Originally posted by RON430
I haven't spent a lot of time looking at them but I had a chance to go for a drive in one a friend was looking at and with an automatic it was right at 58K sticker. The dealer wanted 5 over that plus tax and license. My friend didn't go for it.

Just to much money for that car.

If the GS 330 comes fully loaded for under 50k with AWD, I will be pretty happy. With the chops people have done, the car is going to look very sweet with a few mods.

This just in from jimxo:

News Flash.

Had lunch today with the mole and was told some inside information. The GS430 will have 330-345 HP when released. The following year a Hybrid motor will be offered around 3k more making the car faster with a 13 sec 1/4 mile and 40 mpg city Did I mention AWD Blue tooth and much much more stuff under the skin. The car you see at the autoshow is exactly the way it will come. Unique transmission will be offered on the GS (no manual) pricing will stay about the same.

The GS is ready but Lexus decided they wanted the new RX400h to be relased first then the GS. Lexus may go from the 2004 directly to the 2006 and skip 05. Followed by the new BMWish IS330 with a choice of 2 V6 engines and many more models to choose from than the current IS. Sequoia based SUV and HPX soon to follow with Hybrid motors as well. 90% of all toyota's will be hybrid in 5 years.


__________________
jimxo

Originally posted by LexusPride
This just in from jimxo:

News Flash.

Had lunch today with the mole and was told some inside information. The GS430 will have 330-345 HP when released. The following year a Hybrid motor will be offered around 3k more making the car faster with a 13 sec 1/4 mile and 40 mpg city Did I mention AWD Blue tooth and much much more stuff under the skin. The car you see at the autoshow is exactly the way it will come. Unique transmission will be offered on the GS (no manual) pricing will stay about the same.

The GS is ready but Lexus decided they wanted the new RX400h to be relased first then the GS. Lexus may go from the 2004 directly to the 2006 and skip 05. Followed by the new BMWish IS330 with a choice of 2 V6 engines and many more models to choose from than the current IS. Sequoia based SUV and HPX soon to follow with Hybrid motors as well. 90% of all toyota's will be hybrid in 5 years.

Lets say it comes out at 330hp, is this really going to make someone buy the car who didn't like it staying at 300hp?




__________________
jimxo

The following year a Hybrid motor will be offered around 3k more making the car faster with a 13 sec 1/4 mile and 40 mpg city

I have a hard time believing these numbers (especially 40 mpg when the RX400h is rated at 28 mpg).

However, I think Toyota/Lexus will be leaving most manufacturers in the dust once they convert most of their cars to a hybrid design, which by their own estimates is only a few years away. Good performance, mileage, and excellent build quality? What more could you want in a daily driver? It'll be interesting to see what other manufacturers can come up with to battle Toyota on this front.

Originally posted by SexySC
The profit margins of SUV's are higher.

BTW, the RX330 is a car not a truck. If it's a car-based platform, it's a car.
Only the GX & LX are truck-based.

Well that means the X5 is a car! :)

Seriously, I know. My wife's RX300 registration shows it is a station wagon. But for sales comparison purposes, I think they group the X5 and RX330 into the truck category.

Originally posted by doug_999
Well that means the X5 is a car! :)

Seriously, I know. My wife's RX300 registration shows it is a station wagon. But for sales comparison purposes, I think they group the X5 and RX330 into the truck category.

I really doesn't matter, they all count. I just think it's silly that some suggest(I've read in another forum) that Lexus can't really sell cars and has to rely on RX330(truck/SUV) sales to make it the sales leader in the luxury segment in the past few years.

Originally posted by SexySC
I really doesn't matter, they all count. I just think it's silly that some suggest(I've read in another forum) that Lexus can't really sell cars and has to rely on RX330(truck/SUV) sales to make it the sales leader in the luxury segment in the past few years.

Not my point at all. My point is that Lexus is focusing on where the growth is. People want trucks/car based sport utes so that's where Lexus is putting their effort. If what Jimxo writes is true, that they wanted the RX400h out first, then my point would be proven. Of course only the shadow knows :).

Probably worth looking into exactly what "car based" means but I doubt anyone is really interested in that topic. What differentiates a true truck from a car based truck is not very clear anymore. If your definition of a truck is body on frame, there are a whole lot of "trucks" that don't qualify for the truck title. The Camry has no frame, as such, being unibody. When they say the RX is based on a car, it means there are a lot of Camry pieces, or more appropriately, dimensions, that wound up on the RX.

When my GS was in for the 30K, I had an RX330 for a loaner and it is very nice. Does it ride like a Camry? No way. It waddles like a truck, it quacks like a truck, it's a truck. At least for me. To those that are offended, sorry. But I am not sure very many people understand what is meant by "car based" or such terms as "platform sharing". The resulting vehicles are still fairly unique. And, like I said, anyone who thinks an RX is a butch Camry station wagon should go drive one.

More personal opinion. If the GS gets a 340 to 350hp 4.3, so will the LS and SC and it will probably mean no 5.0. And my opinion further is that the LS is really going to be serious competition to the GS on almost every count with that hp. A hybrid for 3K that gets 40mpg and does a 13 sec quarter will be one of the best deals ever in the automotive world. I can't say I have more than cursory info on the RX setup but I think I have read that there will be a 50 hp electric motor in it. The RX is much better designed to put that honking thing in than a GS. But if Toyota can pull it off, hey, we all benefit.

Originally posted by pvmike1
I have a hard time believing these numbers (especially 40 mpg when the RX400h is rated at 28 mpg).

However, I think Toyota/Lexus will be leaving most manufacturers in the dust once they convert most of their cars to a hybrid design, which by their own estimates is only a few years away. Good performance, mileage, and excellent build quality? What more could you want in a daily driver? It'll be interesting to see what other manufacturers can come up with to battle Toyota on this front.
Second that. But you forget about environmental friendly=cleaner air. Performance from the high TQ motor from electric motor+AWD, mileage from the generator+gasoline engine and bluid quality since Toyota have been play with this Synergy drive for a while, so they're know what they're doing.
This's gonna be another wake up call from Toyota or what? I'm exciting to see the V-8 Hybrid...:D Everyone else doing the Supercharger or Turbo, but Lexus doing Hybrid to get more performance, gas mileage, environmental and technology. Plus you will save money in the long run when another car in its class have to fill up 2 tanks of gas while your Lexus only need one tank.

with all this talk... i think it's the perfect time to bring up
the new benz. vision grand sport.

www.mbusa.com

what is SUV and car and wagon now? well this will hardly
clarify anything. it's all of them combined. not only that, it's
also AWD, and is hybrid. even with all that it has good milage,
and can go 0-60 in 6.6 quite interesting, and makes me believe
lexus' hybrid can also do that if this SUV/wagon/car can be similar.
btw, lexus isn't the only one doing hybrid by far. GM, honda, benz, and
bmw working on it with hydrogen. i think everyone is going this route.

This is one of the best threads ive seen on this site in weeks... \

Most of lexus' new cars dont appeal to me at all anymore. The cars I love are the early lexus'.
In my opinion, the best years for the company were 1989-1992. Introduction of the LS400, a breakthrough in its field. The ES250 was cool, i guess. The 1992 ES300 was an extremely popular car, selling over 45,000 units. The SC400 was waaaay ahead of its time, managed to achieve motor trend car of the year, just like the LS did previously. The early lexus cars have just a certain niche of collectible value and lasting quality that makes buying a new car of virtually any type unnessesary.

Ive thought about what I want to replace my SC with in a few years and theres not a single car I can see myself in. Its just that nice when your cars a 92 and everyone thinks its a 2001 or 2002.

I just put some numbers together. From 1989 and 1992, the first three years, lexus sold 280,405 cars (exported to the U.S.) That is amazing.. with only three car series (ES, LS and SC, the SC only being around for one year at this point.)

Lexus will achieve performance status as the synergy drive engines make their way through the entire line up.

Here are some projected upcoming Toyco / Lexi models in the piplines still:

- FTX (aka Tundra2005)
- Camry replacement
- IS300 / Supra replacement
- LS replacement
- GST fighter

The FTX should spawn off several derivatives including a new Sequoia, maybe Land Cruiser and LX470 to be competive against the new Escalades, Navigators, and Armadas in the world. It should also coincide with a relaunch of a big beefier V8, first made for truck duty, then later refined for Lexus consumption (think GS450 / LS450 perhaps), not to mention the Hybrid versions thereof.

The Camry replacmeent will also spawn off quite a few vehicles from its new platform, including 1) ES300 2) Avalon 3) Highland 4) RX330 5) Solara.

As for the IS300 / Supra, I'm more inclined to think that somehow the GS platform will sever the basis for the new IS and Z-fighting Supra. Makes more sense, as Toyota is really into platform sharing for more cheaper commodity vehicles (sort of the FM chassis in Nissan). I'm sure the new 3.0L 245hp v6 will be shoehorned into their, with possibly a hybrid awd version as a hi-po option.

- As for the LFS (aka next LS) and HPX (next GST fighter), somehow i think they're a shared platform that will be the real showstopper of this new Lexus next gen marque. I'm inclined to think the new LS will debut either the new V8 or hybrid V8, that will be shared with the GS (remember how the ES330 gained the new engine after intially just being the 300).

This only makes business sense as a profitable company. Personally I'd love to see more hp since i'm a car nut kinda guy, but after ownership now of an LS, I don't think it'd make much difference from an ownership perspective, more so braggin rights amongst friends...