FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen AG Chief Executive Bernd Pischetsrieder believes the company's previous management made a mistake when it built the luxury Phaeton as a saloon, British monthly CAR reported in its August issue.

"The Phaeton fails to sell because it is not distinctive enough," Pischetsrieder told the magazine in an interview, adding that the next generation might be a mixture between an estate car and a coupe.

"It will definitely not be a normal saloon," the former BMW CEO said, pointing out that engineers had originally conceived it differently. "But the marketing people said the luxury buyers would insist on a saloon. That was a mistake."

Pischetsrieder also blamed marketing for nearly killing off the immensely popular Golf GTI model, which he is reviving.

"It was too slow, too average. It was a good example of marketing getting it wrong. If it hadn't been for those fans of the old Golf GTI, and their clubs and meetings, the icon would have completely disappeared," he said.

This is the second time Pischetsrieder has publicly criticized the car maker's product policy under his predecessor and current VW supervisory board Chairman Ferdinand Piech.

In an interview with the Financial Times in early June, Pischetsrieder said it had been "absolutely the wrong decision" to introduce VW's small Polo model in China.

Pischetsrieder also used the CAR report to take aim at Piech, who brought him to VW and anointed him as his successor.

"Dr. Piech possibly emphasized engineering too much, and his predecessor Dr. Hahn possibly emphasized employment too much," he told CAR. "My goal is very clear. It is to make money."

what else can you say to that but.............. doH!

What a surprise :egads: :egads:

Sometimes i wonder how these people get to become CEOs if they decide to sell a product that 99% of auto industry analysts predicted to fail even before it came out. :thumbdn: :thumbdn:

VW is not doing too well anyway and not only bec of the Phaeton mistake........

Phaeton has a nice enough interior, but who wants an expensive VW? I'll take an A8 over it in a sec.

Originally posted by SexySC
Phaeton has a nice enough interior, but who wants an expensive VW? I'll take an A8 over it in a sec.

what he said! :)

I have yet to see one on the road. :egads:
I think part of the problem is that VW isn't
even trying to advertise the Pheaton. How
many TV commercials have we seen? I've
seen only one in the last year. A lot of people
probably don't even know it exists.

Originally posted by SexySC
Phaeton has a nice enough interior, but who wants an expensive VW? I'll take an A8 over it in a sec.

I agree with you that a VW in this price class is not going to be immensely popular, but the Phaeton DOES have one significant thing the A8 doesn't....a W12 engine option. To get a V-12 BMW or Mercedes brand-new takes well over $100,000....VW does it for $80-90,000. The VW is also more suited for limo-like cruising...the A8 has a sportier steering and suspension feel.

I think with VW between the phaeton and the next line down the price difference is almost 2 times........ it's like like toyota where you can buy anything from $12k to $80k and just about anying in about $5000 increments....

Originally posted by mmarshall
I agree with you that a VW in this price class is not going to be immensely popular, but the Phaeton DOES have one significant thing the A8 doesn't....a W12 engine option. To get a V-12 BMW or Mercedes brand-new takes well over $100,000....VW does it for $80-90,000. The VW is also more suited for limo-like cruising...the A8 has a sportier steering and suspension feel.

The A8 does have a V12 version, but of course it'll cost more.

Originally posted by SexySC
The A8 does have a V12 version, but of course it'll cost more.

Link HERE (http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=758&fArticleId=375550)

I was unable to open the link, but I'll take your word for it......if Audi does have a V12 or W12 option, I'll stand corrected. This must be pretty new...I wasn't aware of it. But you're right...it WILL cost more.

Originally posted by mmarshall
I was unable to open the link, but I'll take your word for it......if Audi does have a V12 or W12 option, I'll stand corrected. This must be pretty new...I wasn't aware of it. But you're right...it WILL cost more.

I don't have problem opening the link :confused: I'll post the contents for you :)

New Audi flagship - W12 motor and 250km/h in 29 seconds

April 7, 2004

Audi Germany has unveiled the newest and most sporty version of its flagship model, the A8 six-litre quattro whoses W12 motor will take it to 250km/h in less than 30 seconds.

This 12-cylinder version with standard wheelbase, like the ultra-comfortable, dynamic long-wheelbase version before it, raises the stakes in the luxury car category.

It's capable of 331kW and 580Nm of torque and has all the vital ingredients of a race car. The six speeds of the automatic transmission are much lower-geared than the A8L 6.0, to let it unleash its potential more convincingly.

It will flash from 0-100 km/h in just 5
The car can be identified by a front end bearing what Audi calls its 'new formal idiom'
.1 seconds, reach 200km/h 11.8 seconds later and make its (electronically lmited) 250km/h less than 30 seconds from the first touch of the go pedal - with many thanks to its aluminium and spaceframe shell.

The car can be identified by a front end bearing what Audi calls its "new formal idiom" of which the main element is a single-frame radiator grille whose outer chromed ring surrounds painted grey fins with horizontal chromed strips.

The W12 badge is another visual indication of the engine's performance possibilities while the clear glass headlight covers display the technology they protect:

The 12-cylinder A8 is the first car in the world to be equipped with LED daytime driving lights whose five lighting elements do more than merely add a new visual touch to the vehicle's nose.

The scope for pairing the W12 with all-wheel drive is based entirely on its unusually short length of 513mm and its width of 690mm
The W12 badge is another visual indication of the engine's performance possibilities
.

Another outcome of the engine's enhanced efficiency is its fuel consumption - 14.7 litres/100km in general town and country driving.


The A8 V12 quattro, we're sad to say, is not destined for South Africa but its V8-engined smaller brother arrived this week and motoring.co.za Durban correspondent GREG PEARCE was there.

Here's what he had to say about it...

Now here's a thing: Audi's A8 - battlewagon of the four-ringed marque's range - outsells BMW's 745i and Mercedes' S500 by nearly two to one in Europe. Hmmmm…

Armed with that essentially useless information, I boarded the sleekly understated, yet obviously businesslike A8 for a weekend on the Garden Route.

Firmly settled in the D segment of our market, which sees some 850 units a year acquiring owners, the new A8 has been enhanced in all areas, from an upgraded 4.2 litre V8 with 246kW at a fairly raunchy 6 500rpm and boasting grunt of 430Nm at three-five.

This all comes together for 6.3 seconds to 100km/h sprint and a top speed limited to the agreed German top end of 250km/h.

And if you consider that 0-100 time, that's not at all shabby for a number of reasons, most pertinent of which is that this is a limo that weighs in at 200kg under two tons despite the aluminium space frame under its aluminium shell.

Then, of course, there's its drive train. Like many Audis at the sharper end of the price range, it has Ingolstadt's all-wheel-drive. There's no other car of the A8's stature that brags a diff at each axle with a torque-sensing differential in the middle.

It's also suspended on an adaptive air-suspension with four settings: auto, dynamic, comfort and lift. Self-explanatory, really, though briefly the A8 stands 120mm above the ground. If you drive at 120 for more than 30 seconds, a light on the dash indicates that the car has lowered itself by 25mm.

Dynamic means the car lowers to 100mm from outset; comfort is for the gentle ride and lift will raise the car an inch, though only below 80km/h, if you're roughing it or need to climb a kerb.

There are huge disc brakes bow and stern hiding behind 18" wheels (19" optional) and they have - take a breath - ABS, electronic brake distribution, brake pressure distribution. electronic diff lock, hydraulic brake assist, ASR traction control, and electronic stability.

The handbrake as we know it is no longer: instead it's a little electromechanical lever on the centre console that automatically releases off as you move off. The law says a handbrake should be useable in an emergency, so it is.

Options abound, at a price, of course. These include such innovations as fingerprint recognition that remembers the way the car's set up for you. You have to have the key on you, though.

Voice recognition, parking radar, satnav… the list is almost endless.

However, R763 000 is what the A8 will cost you, just two grand less than the quirkily designed 745i, though nearly R80 000 below the S500.

http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article0/5/c/27406http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article2/1/a/27408
http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article2/a/4/27409http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article2/7/5/27410http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article2/f/8/27411
http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article1/c/e/27407

It'll be offered in N.America too.

Thanks.

I can appreciate the fact we can talk about other brands but when we talk about Acura or Infiniti, the mental midgets come out.

I want a VW

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
I can appreciate the fact we can talk about other brands but when we talk about Acura or Infiniti, the mental midgets come out.


LOL

:hug:

Seriously, this was a terrible mistake that anyone could have seen coming from about 12,000 miles away. I knew things were going to go to hell when they built a special glass factory just for it which focused heavily on the use of "quiet tools" to preserve the "atmosphere"...:thumbdn:

:egads:

The car is selling well with the dumbass crowd.:D

The front on that Audi reminds me of the Chrysler 300...or do I have it reversed? :egads:

VW took a long shot and didn't listen to anyone but themselves...sad. My thought is that if they placed this with the MB E320 and like by toning it down, the objection from a well optioned Passat may not have been so overwhelming. From Passat to Phaeton, it was too much and this whole thing probably did well to steer some toward Audi. :overhere:

Originally posted by SexySC
Phaeton has a nice enough interior, but who wants an expensive VW? I'll take an A8 over it in a sec.

:agreed:

I cannot understand how a company that achieved world acclaim building inexpensive "people's cars" can seriously believe they can successfully carry that badge over into the luxury market. Despite VW's engineering and performance claims, the buyer dynamics for the luxury segment demand some sort of cachet for a 40K and up price tag.

Honda begat Acura, Nissan begat Infinity, Toyota begat Lexus . . . obviously this tactic is not news to the auto industry. What makes Volkswagen think they can sell a "cheap" nameplate into the luxury market? To make matters worse, the Phaeton and the Touareg sport those huge saucer-sized VW badges. I'm sure VW is proud of these vehicles, but get a clue, guys!

Latest laugh line at the country club: "Hey, have you seen Harry's new seventy-five thousand dollar VOLKSWAGEN??"

Love the A8!

http://www.motoring.co.za/site/30/picdb/article1/c/e/27407

However, I'm interested in the use of that B-25 the models seem to be exiting in the background as an executive aircraft. Twelve 50-cal. machine guns would make a heck of an impression on your customer as you taxi to the terminal. I've used this one as a camera platform a couple of times and can attest to the fact that with two 1750-hp 14-cyl Wright Cyclone engines, they are rough, drafty, and LOUD (but a heck of a lot of fun)!

http://www.lsfm.org/images/B-25.GIF

That's what VW gets for not branding the Phaeton as a Audi :egads:

Originally posted by 0l33l
That's what VW gets for not branding the Phaeton as a Audi :egads:

Audi already has their version, the A8. VW just figured they could squeeze out another model with the developement of the A8.

Originally posted by JLSC4
Audi already has their version, the A8. VW just figured they could squeeze out another model with the developement of the A8.

What I mean it not putting the W12 motor into an audi :egads:
They are planning to put in into the A8 6.

I consider the A8 the best looking large luxury sedan with the best interior bar none. I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I wanted and needed such a car.

AutoWeek recently also had the A8 as best luxury sedan.

Originally posted by bitkahuna
I consider the A8 the best looking large luxury sedan with the best interior bar none. I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I wanted and needed such a car.

AutoWeek recently also had the A8 as best luxury sedan.

I concur. I saw one at the little local Ace Hardware, of all places, and almost went into cardiac arrest.

I've seen a couple on the road. Then I went to the dealership to get a closer look. The interior is great. Quality all around. You close the door and it's no different than being in any luxo barge. However, standing outside of it...all you can visualize is overgrown Passat. Salesman said they were discounting them in the low to mid $70's. As nice as the engine and interior is that is too much moolah for an overgrown Passat.

Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
The car is selling well with the dumbass crowd.:D

Oh my ....

The car in those pictures is an abomination of an abomination of a car.

Where'd he cop those aluminum foil wheels????

Originally posted by JLSC4
Audi already has their version, the A8. VW just figured they could squeeze out another model with the developement of the A8.

This is the inherent flaw with the Phaeton and to a lesser degree the Passat W8. I have said many times before, why would VW chase the same customers as Audi? I hve heard the product projections that state the VW is intended to combat M/B, while the Audi is to combat BMW but who are we kidding here? I think they conjured up that malaky to squeak out another car on that platform (as if a premium Audi and a Bently were not enough).

As I have said time and time again, Americans are WAYYY to image conscience to purchase a VW for the same price as a MB/BMW/Lexus/Audi, etc. Even Audi is just getting to the point where it is viewed as a direct competitor for MB, and BMW. I went to Waterfest this weekend and was talking to a few Audi salesman and they said the Phaeton is not a problem for them (meaning they are not selling very well). There is one point that does not come up very often, what dealer channel does Volkswagen have to accomodate a Premium Ultra Lux Customer?? What do they say, concierge services for Phaeton owners only, others scram??

I have never seen a Passat W8 on the street, I have seen 2-3 Phaetons though. Like I always say, who wakes up and says.........."Hmm, time for a new car, do I go for the M/B, the BMW, the Lexus or the............VOLKSWAGEN??!! lol

Originally posted by DGOT20s
1) why would VW chase the same customers as Audi? I hve heard the product projections that state the VW is intended to combat M/B, while the Audi is to combat BMW but who are we kidding here? I think they conjured up that malaky to squeak out another car on that platform (as if a premium Audi and a Bently were not enough).

2) I have never seen a Passat W8 on the street, I have seen 2-3 Phaetons though. Like I always say, who wakes up and says.........."Hmm, time for a new car, do I go for the M/B, the BMW, the Lexus or the............VOLKSWAGEN??!! lol

1) Why does Toyota chase the same customers as Lexus (with the avalon)? Its because its their flagship car.

2) I've never seen a Phaeton, but I have seen 1 old W8 passat - looked hideous.

Originally posted by DGOT20s
This is the inherent flaw with the Phaeton and to a lesser degree the Passat W8. I have said many times before, why would VW chase the same customers as Audi? I hve heard the product projections that state the VW is intended to combat M/B, while the Audi is to combat BMW but who are we kidding here? I think they conjured up that malaky to squeak out another car on that platform (as if a premium Audi and a Bently were not enough).

As I have said time and time again, Americans are WAYYY to image conscience to purchase a VW for the same price as a MB/BMW/Lexus/Audi, etc. Even Audi is just getting to the point where it is viewed as a direct competitor for MB, and BMW. I went to Waterfest this weekend and was talking to a few Audi salesman and they said the Phaeton is not a problem for them (meaning they are not selling very well). There is one point that does not come up very often, what dealer channel does Volkswagen have to accomodate a Premium Ultra Lux Customer?? What do they say, concierge services for Phaeton owners only, others scram??

I have never seen a Passat W8 on the street, I have seen 2-3 Phaetons though. Like I always say, who wakes up and says.........."Hmm, time for a new car, do I go for the M/B, the BMW, the Lexus or the............VOLKSWAGEN??!! lol


Well said.

It's true that Audi's image of prestige is just finally coming around but still lags behind MB, BMW, and
Lexus. This is despite the fact that Audi's are often as good or perhaps even better in many areas. So if Audi is still trying to establish their Luxury image to the same level as the top 3 mentioned brands, what makes VW think they can sell a model that costs more than the most expensive Lexus? Who's calling the shot's in their marketing dept.?
:egads:

Originally posted by 0l33l
1) Why does Toyota chase the same customers as Lexus (with the avalon)? Its because its their flagship car.


I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. The Avalon is a very nice car and its the best Toyota has to offer, but it does not cost 70k like a LS430. That was my point about the Phaeton and A8, they are in the same price range (give or take 5-10k). Now to further clarify, if Toyota introduced a 65k Avalon, then they would be just as mis-guided as Volkswagen.

Originally posted by JLSC4
Well said.

It's true that Audi's image of prestige is just finally coming around but still lags behind MB, BMW, and
Lexus. This is despite the fact that Audi's are often as good or perhaps even better in many areas.


I forgot to make that point before, Audi may lag behind MB, BMW, and Lexus in "perceived" brand equity but they are equal to and in some cases ahead of them in certain areas. Audi's have some of the most beautifully crafted interiors of any car. I never had any idea how nice they were until my neighbor gave me a ride in his lightly modded A6.

Originally posted by DGOT20s
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. The Avalon is a very nice car and its the best Toyota has to offer, but it does not cost 70k like a LS430. That was my point about the Phaeton and A8, they are in the same price range (give or take 5-10k). Now to further clarify, if Toyota introduced a 65k Avalon, then they would be just as mis-guided as Volkswagen.

I also have to respectuflly disagree :) I never said that toyota chases the LS430 crowd, bot the Avalon does bite into some ES330 sales.

I finally saw one yesterday for the berry first time. First thought? Hey, that's a pretty nice Passat-I'm wasn't being sarcastic. When I got closer, I finally saw the "Phae....ton." When you're up in that price range, people want to get their $$$ worth, prestige included-maybe worry about reliability later. We're going to beat this to death but why buy the VW when you have MB, BMW, Audi, and Lexus in the comparable price range? Oh, and shouldn't Audi change the A8 to A12 or something else witht their V12?:D

I never liked the "look" of the A8 or Phaeton, BUT I still give credit to the smooth, large engines. :thumbup:

-Anthony

Originally posted by 0l33l
I also have to respectuflly disagree :) I never said that toyota chases the LS430 crowd, bot the Avalon does bite into some ES330 sales.

Ok you just made my point, the Phaeton is a direct competitor with the Audi FLAGSHIP model (the A8), whereas the Avalon may impinge on the ENTRY LEVEL Lexus ES. Although they may compete somewhat, a TOYOTA is not challenging the model that carries a large part of the equity of its luxury division LEXUS (the LS).

The Phaeton implies that VOLKSWAGEN is just as good as a AUDI, which is almost a oxymoron in the automobile marketing arena!

Originally posted by DGOT20s
Ok you just made my point, the Phaeton is a direct competitor with the Audi FLAGSHIP model (the A8), whereas the Avalon may impinge on the ENTRY LEVEL Lexus ES. Although they may compete somewhat, a TOYOTA is not challenging the model that carries a large part of the equity of its luxury division LEXUS (the LS).

The Phaeton implies that VOLKSWAGEN is just as good as a AUDI, which is almost a oxymoron in the automobile marketing arena!

Ok, maybe the avalon is a bad example. But the NA Supra did bite into some SC300 market. And the SC300 at that time was Lexus' flagship coupe.

Originally posted by DGOT20s
The Phaeton implies that VOLKSWAGEN is just as good as a AUDI, which is almost a oxymoron in
the automobile marketing arena!

Good point.
The funny thing is, is that the Phaeton is actually better than the whole Audi line aside from the A8.
A phaeton W12 costs 3 times as much as an A4! What does this do for Audi's image? VW was
so caught up in improving their image that they forgot about the reason why their Audi division even
exists.

Originally posted by JLSC4
Good point.
The funny thing is, is that the Phaeton is actually better than the whole Audi line aside from the A8.
A phaeton W12 costs 3 times as much as an A4! What does this do for Audi's image? VW was
so caught up in improving their image that they forgot about the reason why their Audi division even
exists.

My point exactly! :D

Well all I know is that here in Plano/Dallas, people LOVE nice cars... and BUY them! I have seen but 1 Phaeton on the road EVER, and that was sometime ago.
:uh:

The only time I saw one is in the Autoshow earlier this year. I've yet to see one on the road.