Friend of mine got a '04 BMW 318i just about a year ago. He's relatively taken pretty good care of it to date and mechanically, it's pretty good. But the number of problems he had with the accessories were nothing more than a major headache. He just got his car back out of the dealership for a warranty repair on several items. The power windows were no longer functioning, so he had to make use of the sunroof when he wanted some air. The electric shade on the rear window stopped working, he had a problem with the passenger side power mirror not working and the driver's power seat to top it all up. Thankfully, they were all covered under the warranty. That's quite a bit of trouble for a car with only 32,000 km (20,000 miles) on it. :egads:

I'm glad got my RX instead of the 2 year old X5 3.0 w/ 25K miles from NJ w/ cold weather package that was all rattling on the inside and had a sticky gas pedal! :D

I was waiting in line at Washington Mutual when I heard two tellers chatting in the back, one was complaining about his 3-series lease and how he had the car in the dealership for repairs every single month!

Well from the other side of the curtain, not only do i love my 3 series, i bought another one today, and now have 2. No complaints. My two SC400's and my 2 E36's have been the most dependable cars i have ever had, given credit to my ford ranger in there somewhere.

Well from the other side of the curtain, not only do i love my 3 series, i bought another one today, and now have 2. No complaints. My two SC400's and my 2 E36's have been the most dependable cars i have ever had, given credit to my ford ranger in there somewhere.

Are you planning on starting a dealership :p

JK man. My girl is about to buy a BMW, probably an M3 - maybe I shouldn't show her this thread!

Peace,
Jonny

Siding with the BMWs here.....
My 540ia was 100% trouble free and three of my friends have new BMWs without any issues (ok the X5 has a cold idle problem). I honestly don't consider them an unreliable brand - first year ones excluded.

On that note, my wife's cousin was over with his 2001 740i - with sport package today. I "borrowed" it to go get the pizza and all I can say is WOW what a vehicle - the sound of the engine alone was intoxicating.

Well, clearly, BMW is not the most reliable car when it comes down to the numbers. Just as Lexus is not the most sporting car stock. There are unhappy Lexus owners, its just there are more unhappy BMW owners.

But the funny thing is, BMW has such brand and status, many people put up with it and accept the fact things will break but I am still happy with BMW. So to the car's credit, it must be doing something hella right.:)

Your in Kuwait, looking at Quaility ratings in Europe, BMW is not near the top but not as bad as Benz. Lexus is the #1 ranked company. for quality. Not sure of ratings in the middle east.

There are unhappy Lexus owners, its just there are more unhappy BMW owners.

I seem to remember some ratings where BMW owners were more satisifed with their cars than Lexus owners.

There may however be more really ticked off BMW owners than Lexus owners :)

I seem to remember some ratings where BMW owners were more satisifed with their cars than Lexus owners.

There may however be more really ticked off BMW owners than Lexus owners :)
That is possible, not trying to argue here, I don't have any graphs and I don't intend on looking for any tonight. :D

I seem to remember some ratings where BMW owners were more satisifed with their cars than Lexus owners.

Emotions can trump reality.

I seem to remember some ratings where BMW owners were more satisifed with their cars than Lexus owners.


that's probably due to more bmw owners total. my gf's X5 4.4 is a great car and pwerful but it's been stressing her out with the problems (alarm, lock, seat, shelflevering suspension, hid) it has and the service we are getting from bmw dealership. they love to diagnos and further diagnos the car and charge $150 per diagnos...

many of the electrical problems seem identical to those in Fords, is BMW using the same parts distributor for electronics as Ford, I've heard it many times that BMW is not as German as you may think

Life is too short to have car problems.

Life is too short to have car problems.

Thats like saying life is to short to get sick, things happen and you gotta take care of them when they do ;)

Thats like saying life is to short to get sick, things happen and you gotta take care of them when they do ;)

No, I strongly disagree. You can control what you can control in this life. Make wise decisions and you can limit your risk exposure and MINIMIZE your pain.

Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, wash your hands and you won't get sick as much as someone who does not.

Invest and save some money and you won't be as poor and financially struggling as someone who does not.

Buy a Lexus and your time and money handling problems won't be as much as someone who dismisses all of the mounds of data and goes an buys an MB or BMW or some other junk.

Again - you can control what you can control.

No, I strongly disagree. You can control what you can control in this life. Make wise decisions and you can limit your risk exposure and MINIMIZE your pain.

Eat right, exercise, don't smoke, wash your hands and you won't get sick as much as someone who does not.

Invest and save some money and you won't be as poor and financially struggling as someone who does not.

Buy a Lexus and your time and money handling problems won't be as much as someone who dismisses all of the mounds of data and goes an buys an MB or BMW or some other junk.

Again - you can control what you can control.

and I strongly disagree with this....

Take the "eat right" - that means no 32oz porterhouse steaks with an incredible glass (ok glasses of wine). Well that's not living in my book.

So if I can buy a car that I LOVE that needs to go in for service more than a bland car (shall we say tofu?), then I choose that because that is living in my book.

Now you might be the tofu loving kind of "I just want my car to get me from point A to point B and never break down" and that's OK, but to some it isn't.

and I strongly disagree with this....

Take the "eat right" - that means no 32oz porterhouse steaks with an incredible glass (ok glasses of wine). Well that's not living in my book.

So if I can buy a car that I LOVE that needs to go in for service more than a bland car (shall we say tofu?), then I choose that because that is living in my book.

Now you might be the tofu loving kind of "I just want my car to get me from point A to point B and never break down" and that's OK, but to some it isn't.

Then keep eating your 32 oz. steaks and die young of colon cancer or a heart attack. And go buy a MB or BMW and spend lots of time and money in the shop.

TO EACH HIS OWN!

Then keep eating your 32 oz. steaks and die young of colon cancer or a heart attack. And go buy a MB or BMW and spend lots of time and money in the shop.

TO EACH HIS OWN!

BMWs come with free scheduled maint for the first four years - so you actually spend less money in the shop (compared to Lexus) which means more $ for the yummy steaks :)

BMWs come with free scheduled maint for the first four years - so you actually spend less money in the shop (compared to Lexus) which means more $ for the yummy steaks :)

1. TIME is a nonrenewable commodity.
2. Nothing is really "free" in this world.

That is possible, not trying to argue here, I don't have any graphs and I don't intend on looking for any tonight. :D

I looked up some of the owner satisfaction graphs for you, Mike....in Consumer Reports, which may not be the best cross-section of either BMW or Lexus owners....but has some of the most complete data available on both reliability and owner satisfaction.

ALL of the current Lexus models in production scored either a half-red circle (above average) or a full-red circle (much better then average) in owner satisfcation.

BMW models varied quite a bit across the board. The current 3-series and the Chris Bangle 5-series got a half-red circle. The Z4 got a full-red circle. The X5 got a white circle (average). The 7-series (not surprisingly) got a half-black circle (worse then average) The X3 and new 6-series were too new to have a data base...they were not rated yet.

well, it's my observation, i see this everyweek constantly:

1 every Fri, Sat and Sun, most of the cars that are dead on the freeways are BMW and MB(70% BMW and 20% MB and 10% all others). the reasons for Ford, Jaquar, SAAB, Vovol were not so often spoted was because they are gradually dying in sales.

2 nevertheless, when i talked to my BMW friends, they are mostly repeated customers and will buy again...they are very used to the pleasure of taking the car to fix...it seems that repairing will add lovely monthly activities that are both pleasurable which will remind them that they are BMW owners. they are also very used to having problems in the freeway...including such things like "sudden stop" because of engine malfunction.

3 after all this, i think "secondary gain" is a good term in psychology

The only reason I've ever seen BMW or MB on the side of the road is the 20 plus size wheels they have can't take a pot hole other then that I've never seen a German vehicle in the break down lane, usually Fords and Chevys.

As far as the problems in German cars, none of the issues are related to driveablity, just cause the seat wants to superheat your butt like your sitting on a frying pan does not mean you can't drive, I-drive might suck but that only means you can't figure out the cars features, overall I think they should lighten up on the electronics and make the cars simple, how come Lexus has electronics in their cars and they work fine.

From what it seems the Germans are getting back on track, the worst problems where around 99, 00 and the new vehicles don't seem to be having the issues

As far as the problems in German cars, none of the issues are related to driveablity, just cause the seat wants to superheat your butt like your sitting on a frying pan does not mean you can't drive, I-drive might suck but that only means you can't figure out the cars features, overall I think they should lighten up on the electronics and make the cars simple, how come Lexus has electronics in their cars and they work fine.



Studies have been done on this subject......and we've done entire threads on this, so I'm not going to repeat all of the details, but the main problem boils down to the Japanese-designed electrical connectors being much simpler in design and easier to install on assembly lines, especially when the worker cannot physically see it but has to install it by feel alone. European connectors don't give you the solid " snap " that Japanese ones do, so under less-than-ideal conditions they are often installed loosely, incorrectly, or even backwards.....and many of them have to be re-done correctly at the dealerships when they fail.

I must repost again - extracted from the edmunds.com forum -

Toyota designs cars in an entirely different way from other manufacturers. They design it from the bottom up that is mostly from already proven components from other models. New technology is applied but always with backup components throughout most of the design process. Therefore, regardless of costs, new car models will be consistently reliable. Other manufacturers primarily design a car from the top down with comprehensive specifications, which drive too much new design throughout all the components. The result is poor long-term reliability, but bunches of new technologies spread throughout the car. The bottom line is that Toyota knows how to blend new technologies with proven components, regardless of costs.

Toyota and Honda operate 6 sigma production target facilities and give workers the ability to shut down the line if components don't fit or meet spec. They design their cars to be assembled only one way - the right way. Suppliers are driven mercilessly. They carefully track when, where and from which supplier faulty parts come from, so Toyota can return them. If the supplier defect level is too high, they shut them off. The amazing thing about the process is that the supply chain grows and learns to be very responsive and very competitive. It's even working in the U.S. where turning out crap and sending it to Detroit was a way of life for suppliers long before Toyota and Honda showed up. Toyota and Honda have the 'platform' approach to design, where a basic engine/transmission and drive train / chassis is targeted at a wide variety of market segments. Small changes in tuning, transmission ratios and engine computer horsepower / torque curves are mated to chassis/suspension to meet performance needs. Toyota and Honda amortize the significant R&D over a very large volume to achieve cost effectiveness. Look at the FWD 3.0 V6 ULEV engine/drive train platform that goes into the Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, RX300, ES300, and Highlander. I think the annual volume for these vehicles is somewhere north of 750,000 in the US alone.

Toyota will always able to make cars cheaper because they have suppliers bend backwards for them. I am an electrical engineer, every time we ask for a price quote, distributors ask for annual quantity. Why? Because the more you buy, the cheaper the per unit the cost. They drool every time you say 250K instead of 100K per year. Again, the reason why Toyota can get parts cheaper is that they share components with Lexus. How can BMW and MB do that? (OK MB maybe can do that with its Chrysler division now). Also your cost for tooling is more when, for example, BMW makes a mold for an engine that they make about 50K engines as compared to Lexus+Toyota that churn maybe 100K or more.

Much of what you describe about Honda and Toyota also applies to Subaru....a division of Fuji Heavy Industries. They also consistantly make reliable vehicles....in much the same manner, although it took them several years to get a handle on the head-gasket problems in the 2.5L flat-4 engine.

BMWs come with free scheduled maint for the first four years - so you actually spend less money in the shop (compared to Lexus) which means more $ for the yummy steaks :)

Yes but, and I think many would agree, even if they PAID ME to get the warranty work done it's still a pain in the butt to go to the dealer, have to either wait there for the work to be done or get the loaner - it's just a hassle, especially in any town that has bad traffic.

I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO VISIT A DEALER except for scheduled maintenance or because I want to check out something I might want to buy. I've got better things I can do with my time.

I hate dealers but it seems that they do more damage to customer cars then the actual cost of the work :sad:

Studies have been done on this subject......and we've done entire threads on this, so I'm not going to repeat all of the details, but the main problem boils down to the Japanese-designed electrical connectors being much simpler in design and easier to install on assembly lines, especially when the worker cannot physically see it but has to install it by feel alone. European connectors don't give you the solid " snap " that Japanese ones do, so under less-than-ideal conditions they are often installed loosely, incorrectly, or even backwards.....and many of them have to be re-done correctly at the dealerships when they fail.

Right - but.... please remember that the German cars have a lot more technology in addition to the crappy connectors. The 7 series alone has 128 different motors. This stuff breaks more - plain and simple. To me they are pushing the technolgy edge and unfortunately reliability and often simplicity are suffering.


Yes but, and I think many would agree, even if they PAID ME to get the warranty work done it's still a pain in the butt to go to the dealer, have to either wait there for the work to be done or get the loaner - it's just a hassle, especially in any town that has bad traffic.

I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO VISIT A DEALER except for scheduled maintenance or because I want to check out something I might want to buy. I've got better things I can do with my time.

True Bit, very true - but I would argue that at least BMW dealers know how to fix cars (cause they break a lot!). I did have a clutch issue on my 3-series that was easily fixed - as opposed to my issues with both of my Lexus vehicles that required numerous trips to the dealer to get fixed. Case in point - my RX300 front passenger speaker has shorted out on and off since the day we have bought it. Dealer some how can not duplicate. Now at 63K it is out completely. I can't wait to fight them on this one. But the point is we brought it in three times for this damn issue. And the ticking on my GS took countless dealers and trips to the dealers before it was finally resolved.

in my life, i've really got lot of friends that really love BMW no matter what you say, no matter what the review say and no matter how many times they got in unexpected troubles....10 years ago when my wife was chating with all her male colleages, most of the younger staff named BMW325i as their dream cars...

i think it's a matter of taste...if you love/like something...you might need to accept the troubles that go with it...just like one of my friends who faithfully serve his jacque on a weekly basis...bring to repair...fix this and that...and he never complains too