CEO says U.S. policy may turn against Japanese automakers if American carmakers collapse.

June 8, 2005: 7:05 AM EDT


OSAKA, Japan (Reuters) - The outspoken chairman of Toyota Motor Corp. said on Wednesday he feared the possibility that U.S. policy could turn against Japanese auto makers if local giants such as GM and Ford were to collapse.

"Many people say the car industry wouldn't revisit the kind of trade friction we saw in the past because Japanese auto makers are increasing local production in the United States, but I don't think it's that simple," Hiroshi Okuda told a news conference.

"General Motors Corp. (Research) and Ford Motor Co. (Research) are symbols of U.S. industry, and if they were to crumble it could fan nationalistic sentiment. I always have a fear that that in turn could manifest itself in policy decisions," he said, speaking as the head of the nation's biggest business lobby, the Japan Business Federation.

Okuda, who as chairman is removed from the automaker's day-to-day operations, raised eyebrows and invited criticism on both sides of the Pacific when he said two months ago that Toyota should think about ways in which it could aid U.S. auto makers -- such as by raising product prices -- as they reel under massive health-care costs and sliding sales.

In the latest sign of tough times at Detroit's Big Two, GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner told shareholders Tuesday of plans to cut at least 25,000 manufacturing jobs and close more U.S. assembly and component plants over the next few years.

Both GM and Ford have been cutting back output as they lose sales to Asian brands led by Toyota, which now controls 13.4 percent of the U.S. car market, the world's biggest.

Asked what he thought of GM's latest restructuring plan, Okuda said: "If you think about GM's current output volume and vehicle lineup, laying off 25,000 to 30,000 employees is inevitable."

GM, the world's biggest auto maker followed by Toyota, lost $1.1 billion in the first quarter and is riding out its worst financial crisis in more than a decade. It has been closing and idling plants over the past four years and will have cut its annual North American assembly capacity to 5 million vehicles by the end of this year from 6 million in 2002.

Meanwhile, top Japanese auto makers are adding jobs and assembly lines in North America to meet growing demand there, prompting executives, including Toyota President Fujio Cho, to dismiss concerns that their success would reignite a political backlash.

I'm not sure laying off all those employees and cutting back on health care expenses is the right solution for GM. First of all, it will mean tens of thousands of more people who cannot afford to buy a new car. THAT certainly won't help GM...or any other manufacturer.
GM has two big problems....even more so than money. First of all, their customer base is dying off....especially for the more conservative Buicks and Cadillacs. While I have long maintained .....and still maintain....that there is no reason why younger people cannot buy and drive these cars, the fact is, like it or not, they just are not doing so. The World War II generation and early baby-boomers....the main customer base for these cars...is aging and dying off (roughly at the rate of 1000 a day). The slightly younger people who would have taken their places got burned in the late 70's and 80's by the junk that GM was building back then ( I was one of them) and gravitated to imports. they have not come back, and with a few exceptions like the Cadillac V-type customers, show no signs returning. They are happy with their European imports, and, like us, with their Lexuses. Then GM management drove even more people away in 1996 when they converted the Arlington, TX plant that built the full-size rear-drive cars into a truck and SUV plant. These people switched to the Mercury Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car and have not come back. In doing so GM also lost the police and taxi markets to Ford. Yes, it can be argued that GM needed the plant space to satisfy the truck and SUV demand, but they paid a HEAVY price for it.

Second of all, although a few of the very newest GM products like the Buick LaCrosse, Pontiac G6, C6 Corvette, and Cadillac STS finally show some signs of improved fit-and-finish, GM has not shown much in this area since the late 1960's when they were arguably the best in the industry next to Mercedes. GM for many, many years has built substandard vehicles, quality and fit-and-finish-wise. CEO's like Roger Smith and Bob Stempel, like Lee Iacocca at Chrysler, talked quality and delivered junk. It took a long time for this to hit home.....and the decline at GM has been slow but steady.......but unfortunately it may now be too late. The chickens are coming home to roost. GM is just TOO slow to listen. A good example was back in the early 1990's at auto shows where I pointed out that the silly Oldsmobile dashes with their row upon row of dozens of tiny identical buttons was making the cars so hard to drive and operate that it was driving customers away. Went in one ear and out the other...the Olds reps didn't want to hear it.
FINALLY...in the mid-late 90's, they listened, re-did the dashes to use large round knobs like they should have done inte first place...but it was too late. The company couldn't be saved. Now they are letting Saturn deteriorate...for different reasons which I have described in earlier threads and won't re-hash here.

But...these problems are not insurmountable if GM simply decides they are going to build better vehicles and show better management, and LISTEN to people of just opening the front door and showing 25,000-30,000 people out. Hyundai / Kia, thanks to the gifted leadership of Finbar O'Neill and the inspiration and determination of so many of its employees, decided that they had had enough of being the butt of jokes and it was time to do something about it...the rest is history.

I say Rest In Peace GM. I know that sounds harsh but that's the reality of doing business. GM is number one in it's industry and they're not in the business to make friends and soon GM will be replaced as the number one auto manufacturer in the world. GM never paid attention to it's customers and now the former and current customers aren't paying attention to GM.

It's not Toyota's fault they started from the bottom and grew their way to the top. Survival of the fittest. Toyota snuck in the back door and got GM at their own game. GM would be to blame in this situation. It's definitely a competative market. It's all fair game.

:agreed: Two fatal flaws in GM's business culture will drive the last nail in their coffin. First, pride in their assurance as an industry leader allowed Toyota, Honda, and now other brands, to overtake them in product engineering and manufacturing technology. By arrogantly assuming they were unchallenged, GM ignored their customers and continued to produce the automotive technology of the 1930's right up into the '90's. They produced "compact" cars largely by rescaling their drawings. The Corvair had taught them that new thinking produced trouble - so they went back to the comfort of the old ways of building a car. They simply built smaller big cars - but rescaling alone doesn't produce an efficient, reliable, less expensive car, only a smaller one.

While Toyota and others emphasized fit and finish as a route to the perception of quality and worked hard to improve their product every day, GM attempted to do it by advertising. They ignored the fact that consumers would ride in a Toyota and discover for themselves that the finish was vastly superior to the GM counterpart. Buyers interpreted fit and finish as "Quality", and by the '90's GM had begun its slide into ignominy.

Finally, personnel policy – allowing the UAW to dominate its business has put GM and Ford in the position of hostages to their workers. By acceding to the demands of the unions, the American automakers allowed semi-skilled workers to ratchet up their paychecks to the point that they are paid far more than a comparably-productive worker in Europe or Asia is paid, and in a global marketplace, that just can’t work.

If American industry is to succeed, it must do so without paying extortion to the unions. Once a necessary component of American industry, guaranteeing worker skill and productivity in exchange for good wages and benefits, the UAW and other unions are now simply racketeers who hold a gun to the heads of the automakers demanding extreme wages and benefits packages for unskilled and unmotivated workers.

Enough! If the automakers won’t rid themselves of the unions, the marketplace will surely rid us of the American automakers.

I see Toyota as an American company, GM and Ford as Canadian/Mexican companies. Toyota continues to bring new jobs to the U.S., while GM and Ford continue to outsource the labor to Canada and Mexico.

GM and Ford got themselves in the hole by using cheap low-quality parts to build unreliable cars and trucks. Doing so helped their executives get filthy rich. Eventually Americans wise up and start buying "imports" from Kentucky, Ohio, and Tennessee. I used to own Ford & GM, never again.

They blame imports, they blame rising pension costs, they blame health care costs, but never themselves. I wouldn't shed a tear when GM and Ford go out of business. Their auto workers can always get jobs from Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. These companies are building new plants here in U.S.A. making quality cars & trucks by Americans and for Americans. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

GM & Ford, get up and compete (fairly, don't cry to the Congress,) or get the F out of the way.

GM and Ford got themselves in the hole by using cheap low-quality parts to build unreliable cars and trucks. Doing so helped their executives get filthy rich. Eventually Americans wise up and start buying "imports" from Kentucky, Ohio, and Tennessee. I used to own Ford & GM, never again.

GM & Ford, get up and compete (fairly, don't cry to the Congress,) or get the F out of the way.

I highly agree. :agreed:

OSAKA June 8, 2005; The AP reported that Kyodo News said the chairman of Toyota Motor Corp. Wednesday repeated his statement that the auto maker is likely to raise its vehicle prices in the United States to support struggling U.S. carmakers.

If the U.S. auto industry collapses, it may adversely affect Japan-U.S. relations by stirring up national sentiment there, Hiroshi Okuda said at a press conference. Okuda was speaking as chairman of the Japan Business Federation, the nation's most powerful business lobby known as Nippon Keidanren.

Two weeks ago, Okuda said the biggest Japanese auto maker may raise its prices in the U.S. market to make it easier for American auto makers to beef up their earnings.

Okuda reiterated his view following General Motors Corp.'s announcement Tuesday that it will cut 25,000 jobs to reduce costs.

Honda Motor Co. has ruled out price hikes to help ailing U.S. auto makers, saying such increases could be considered price manipulation under U.S. anti-trust law.

Okuda, however, said auto makers can raise prices when they introduce new versions.

source : theautochannel

Honda Motor Co. has ruled out price hikes to help ailing U.S. auto makers, saying such increases could be considered price manipulation under U.S. anti-trust law.

Okuda, however, said auto makers can raise prices when they introduce new versions.



You know what's ironic though? Americans value quality and long lasting products. The more the better, the American mentality of being greedy. Even if you hike up the prices of new imported goods, if Americans value these goods, and their intrinsic value, they wont mind paying the premium for it. The regular American consumer trend shows that.

These are good auto history readings :thumbup:
I now understand why these companies are going down.

So now they're recommending imports (like Toyota and Honda) to raise their price to DISCOURAGE people from buying? How is this is suppose to help GM and the domestics? :confused:

I don't mean to bring the president into this but he needs to get his arse in this situation. How can ANYONE ignore the fact that Americas 2 largest companies are STRUGGLING and have so for years now. Only Chrysler currently is doing well and guess what, that arse is owned by Germans.

I did't live when JFK and co. were in office but in tons of reading and watching documentaries, he was like WE WILL NOT LOSE TO THE RUSSIANS!!! WE WILL BE THE SPACE LEADERS!!!

It may not have been the best thing to do with money but damnit it helped bring a country TOGETHER and we had a common goal and supported those in the space program trying to make American #1.

Today, the problem is much more REAL. The Space thing was much so about "ego" .This auto thing is about AMERICANS. Bush and co. need to talk to GM and Ford and say "WAKE THE FOCK UP". AMERICA IS A LEADER, NOT A FOLLOWER!!!!

I am AMERICAN, I would love to rock an American car with pride. I am willing to forgive the ABSOLUTE CRAP my family was sold by those SOBs in the 80s and 90s. But give me a good ARGUEMENT!!!

Outside the Vette and Caddy (and I say that loosly), the Ford GT is out my price range, what the HELL is there to buy AMerican that is not one of the best?

Chrysler has got the PICTURE. Give em American big body styling, RWD and V-8s. I see so many 300Cs and Magnums, stock or with rims. And to people, its DESIRABLE. Not some rebate laden sedan/car. It started with the SRT-4, WHY SHOULD IMPORTS BE THE ONLY HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPACTS??? That is why I like the SRT-4, its shows WE CAN COMPETE!!!

I think I will apply for the CEO position at GM or Ford, they need some car guys, not bean counters and dudes 90 years old still in all the positions of power....

I see Toyota as an American company, GM and Ford as Canadian/Mexican companies. Toyota continues to bring new jobs to the U.S., while GM and Ford continue to outsource the labor

How about the Corolla & RX300 to name a few?

The United Auto Workers Union (UAW) sure didn't help matters. They squeezed and squeezed for higher pay rates and richer benefits for essentially unskilled labor - beyond what could be priced into the product. You can only suck so much milk from the teat until it's dry. They killed the Golden Goose.

The United Auto Workers Union (UAW) sure didn't help matters. They squeezed and squeezed for higher pay rates and richer benefits for essentially unskilled labor - beyond what could be priced into the product. You can only suck so much milk from the teat until it's dry. They killed the Golden Goose.

What I don't get is if the unions have GM and Ford by the short ones, how can GM lay off 25,000 people?

Toyota should buy GM out like how Chrysler got bought out by Mercedes :p

Toyota should buy GM out like how Chrysler got bought out by Mercedes :p



no, because then Toyota quality will fall through the floor--like it did with mercedes benz.

as soon as MBZ started "expanding" and cutting corners to increase profit at less cost, even Germans stay away from Mercedes Vehicles--whereas Toyota has attracted buyers in Europe, not to mention the entire world.

Today toyota announced they would change their pricing structure next year to include higher prices to "help" the american car industry. Toyota feared the collapse of the american market, as mentioned, would cause severe backlash, so they have announced a higher price structure for 2006.

Personally I thought they are pretty damn expensive already IMO. Worth it though ;)

With price increases, all I see is Toyota profit going up. I'm still not going to buy GM or Ford. Our family has had enough of their crap for the past 20 years. I remember seeing my dad always working on the car because something broke. Always getting stressed out with grease all over his hands. Now I have my own family with only Japanese cars. Sure...I'm out there with the cars sometimes on weekends, but it's only to wash, wax, and admire the Lex!

Even a 10% increase will not deter me from buying a Toyota/Lexus. Needlesstosay, American car mfg. have affected a whole generation of car buyers.

I think I will apply for the CEO position at GM or Ford, they need some car guys, not bean counters and dudes 90 years old still in all the positions of power....

You can use me as one of your references.

What I don't get is if the unions have GM and Ford by the short ones, how can GM lay off 25,000 people?

They lay off 25k ppl NOT belonging to the unions??

With price increases, all I see is Toyota profit going up. I'm still not going to buy GM or Ford. Our family has had enough of their crap for the past 20 years. I remember seeing my dad always working on the car because something broke. Always getting stressed out with grease all over his hands. Now I have my own family with only Japanese cars. Sure...I'm out there with the cars sometimes on weekends, but it's only to wash, wax, and admire the Lex!

Even a 10% increase will not deter me from buying a Toyota/Lexus. Needlesstosay, American car mfg. have affected a whole generation of car buyers.

I agree with you, if Toyota increases their prices people will still buy their cars which would in turn make tons of profit for Toyota. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. This almost looks like price gouging. If I was Toyota, if it ain't broke don't fix it, just continue doing what you have been doing making good quality cars at a reasonable price.

GM sucks and so do their cars. This is a competative market and the car companies that win will win because of there good cars aka Toyota all the way!

Today toyota announced they would change their pricing structure next year to include higher prices to "help" the american car industry. Toyota feared the collapse of the american market, as mentioned, would cause severe backlash, so they have announced a higher price structure for 2006.

That is pretty funny if you think about it, Toyota is saying in short our cars our better thus you pay more or pay less for that crappy Ford over there lol. :thumbup:

Lil4X hit it: I've said it before, the extortionist unions in the United States will be the downfall of the American econony.

There are other issues, of course- building crappy cars is a big one, but I blame this mostly on the beancounters: America has some incredibly gifted designers and engineers. The UAW has had a stranglehold on the American car manufacturers for too long. Let the qualified people rise through the ranks through commitment, dedication, and hard work. To the workers: just because you've assembled door panels for 22 years, you are "entitled" to earn $28.50 hour? That's assinine! Have you learned anything new? Had any new training or classes you've taken at the local community college or trade school? Unlikely. ..

Uhhh.!! I could go on, but I get all wound up about this... :banghead:

P.S. If Chevy dropped the base price on the Malibu to $12K and a Toyota raised the price on the base Camry to $28K, care to take a guess at which one I would (still) buy?

Instead of saying how bad GM cars are and why nobody buys them I think we as well as other import and American buyers should write or e-mail GM and give advice on what we would like to see change and what kind of cars to build to get us back to buying American made brands. I as well as many CL members would like to start considering American cars in the future but will not settle for sub par cars which is why we buy Lexus, Acura, Honda, Toyota, Porsche, etc. These are American workers, our neighbors and family they are laying off and if GM collapses it will hurt Americans and our economy and most likely cause Ford to eventaully collapse and alot of hard times for this country. The American auto industry used to be looked at with envy from different countries and Americans were proud to build and buy American cars only buying foreign cars as exotic or niche cars. You can blame alot of things on GM like greedy unions, bean counters, top officials who only care about cost cutting and profit and not quality and competition, poor materials but GM is in trouble and it needs help and we are in the position to at least help them by telling them what we want them to build. Tell them to look at E46 3 series and M3, Audi tt, Audi A-8, Acura RL, TL, TSX, Lexus GS, LS, SC for inspiration and quality of interior design and materials. Tell them to give us sports cars like the last Supra,RX-7, 968, 300zx, and newer cars like the M3, 911, G35coupe, M45, M5s, Aston Martins, AMG benzes, etc. Tell them to get rid of their outdated pushrod engines especially that rough crappy 3800 v-6 they put in everything and replace it with new higher performance reliable engines. Tell them we don't like anything about the current interiors and people are willing to pay higher prices for good looking high quality interiors and reliability. Tell them to stop flooding the market with giant pickups and SUVs.

GM is laying off and closing plants to hopefully change and people should tell them what they want instead of kicking them while their down. Toyota does have a point that if American automakers go out of business there will be a huge amount of people without jobs and a giant blow to our economy which in turn will hurt the market for Toyota etc because many people will not be able to afford to buy cars from any maker. Their will also be resentment from many Americans. I do not think Toyota wants to see its competitors go out of business and so many people to loose jobs so I think it is a standup thing to try and help them while they are down. Hopefully GM can get rid of the unions and rich bean counters who only care that they are making millions more dollars while quality and the real workers suffer.

Instead of saying how bad GM cars are and why nobody buys them I think we as well as other import and American buyers should write or e-mail GM and give advice on what we would like to see change and what kind of cars to build to get us back to buying American made brands. I as well as many CL members would like to start considering American cars in the future but will not settle for sub par cars which is why we buy Lexus, Acura, Honda, Toyota, Porsche, etc. These are American workers, our neighbors and family they are laying off and if GM collapses it will hurt Americans and our economy and most likely cause Ford to eventaully collapse and alot of hard times for this country. The American auto industry used to be looked at with envy from different countries and Americans were proud to build and buy American cars only buying foreign cars as exotic or niche cars. You can blame alot of things on GM like greedy unions, bean counters, top officials who only care about cost cutting and profit and not quality and competition, poor materials but GM is in trouble and it needs help and we are in the position to at least help them by telling them what we want them to build. Tell them to look at E46 3 series and M3, Audi tt, Audi A-8, Acura RL, TL, TSX, Lexus GS, LS, SC for inspiration and quality of interior design and materials. Tell them to give us sports cars like the last Supra,RX-7, 968, 300zx, and newer cars like the M3, 911, G35coupe, M45, M5s, Aston Martins, AMG benzes, etc. Tell them to get rid of their outdated pushrod engines especially that rough crappy 3800 v-6 they put in everything and replace it with new higher performance reliable engines. Tell them we don't like anything about the current interiors and people are willing to pay higher prices for good looking high quality interiors and reliability. Tell them to stop flooding the market with giant pickups and SUVs.

GM is laying off and closing plants to hopefully change and people should tell them what they want instead of kicking them while their down. Toyota does have a point that if American automakers go out of business there will be a huge amount of people without jobs and a giant blow to our economy which in turn will hurt the market for Toyota etc because many people will not be able to afford to buy cars from any maker. Their will also be resentment from many Americans. I do not think Toyota wants to see its competitors go out of business and so many people to loose jobs so I think it is a standup thing to try and help them while they are down. Hopefully GM can get rid of the unions and rich bean counters who only care that they are making millions more dollars while quality and the real workers suffer.

I totally agree. The sad thing is that some American car builders build nicer cars and sell them overseas only. The Ford Falcon and the new Ford Focus are a good examples.

I'm glad I bought my Sequoia in April. :D

UAW- thank you for "assisting" in the destruction of manufacturing in America.

Workers within the UAW- thank you for being lazy and wanting to get paid 3 times what the job calls for because you "deserve" it. While you come in drunk, high or sleep on the job then run to your UAW rep to save you.

Big 3- Several points...........

Until the playing field is level with their competition, they will decline. Which includes ridiculous retirement packages!!!!!!!!!!!

UAW will always drag them down.

They need a whole generation of the "good ole boys" to die off. I am tired of hearing about people sleeping in warehouse racks while getting 10 hours of OT, it was old 10 years ago, and now I see why American auto continues to whither away. Start running your business right or fail, because the foreign auto makers smell blood and they are not going to stop.

When you decide to stop FORCING Tier Ones into 5% discounts every year, then putting draining requirements on them that cost more money AS you're asking for discount.... how can you ask for 5% every year when things get more expensive every year? When you stop this crap, you MAY get higher quality parts and your cars won't be labeled junk anymore.

yep.... get rid of the UAW, pensions, benefits to retiree's, CLEAN UP your operations and get rid of the dead weight, then focus on having good relationships with your suppliers and buy products are a fair price allowing the suppliers to give each unit the right amount of focus for quality, and you are on the right track to surviving............


so tired of the uaw.... guys running around with $3 prescriptions saying their healthcare use to be better. I don't know anyone paying less then $20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

True, the UAW is not blameless in the area of wages and benefits, but let's be fair.............you can't blame auto workers if the managers, engineers, and bean-counters give them junk parts to assemble the cars with. And it doesn't matter how well you work....or goof off.....if you have lousy parts. You can match up two flimsy, cheap pieces of plastic with a modern laser-sighting device that will give you a gap SO thin you couldn't stick a piece of paper through it, but WHAT do you STILL end up with? Correct...two well-fitted flimsy pieces of plastic.

True, the UAW is not blameless in the area of wages and benefits, but let's be fair.............you can't blame auto workers if the managers, engineers, and bean-counters give them junk parts to assemble the cars with. And it doesn't matter how well you work....or goof off.....if you have lousy parts. You can match up two flimsy, cheap pieces of plastic with a modern laser-sighting device that will give you a gap SO thin you couldn't stick a piece of paper through it, but WHAT do you STILL end up with? Correct...two well-fitted flimsy pieces of plastic.

I see what your saying as I noted part of the problem being the parts..

But growing up in Detroit, when everyone around you at one point was UAW........ The stories will make you sick.... sooner or later you get tired of people talking about working 7 days of doubles and working maybe 10 hours of that.... hiding behing the UAW for everything, even sipping a bottle while on the line. it's endless, and sad, because the same people who have the UAW and BUY AMERICAN stickers on their car, are the same ones who helped cause this problem.......... just years and years of this crap, I STILL here these stories today.....

True, the UAW is not blameless in the area of wages and benefits, but let's be fair.............you can't blame auto workers if the managers, engineers, and bean-counters give them junk parts to assemble the cars with. And it doesn't matter how well you work....or goof off.....if you have lousy parts. You can match up two flimsy, cheap pieces of plastic with a modern laser-sighting device that will give you a gap SO thin you couldn't stick a piece of paper through it, but WHAT do you STILL end up with? Correct...two well-fitted flimsy pieces of plastic.


Just something funny if you ever get to it, go walk through a Big 3 plant, then go walk through a Toyota or Honda plant. Everytime I talk to a mfg or application engineer who has, it's always the same thing.... One place you can eat maple walnut ice cream off the floor and see pride, the other you want to wash your hands after you get done running away from the people.

I'm sure the workers on the assembly line have their faults but this is a management problem. Why are people complaining about the little man getting $28.00 an hour, that's peanuts compared to the millions in salary, bonuses, and stock options that upper management receive. I bet you could pay 1/5 of all the workers salaries with the salaries of the top three managers at GM. I don't see them cutting their pay.

The little guy don't design cars and order all the cheap crappy plastic to be used in GM's cars. So don't blame them for all of GM's problems. Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of unions at all but it's this same management team that signed the stupid contracts.

Back in 1990 GM had 228,000 hourly employees and 58,000 salary employees. Today they have 111,000 (not counting the -25,000) and 44,000 salary employees. Something is wrong with that picture.

When will they realize that people want cars that look good inside and out without making a trip a week to the dealership or a local shop to have the car repaired. I want the choice of keeping my car 10 years instead of being force to buy one every 4 years because it's falling apart.

As far as Toyota increasing their prices to help GM, I think that's a bunch of bull. Someone over there knows that people will buy their cars over GM's reguardless of a small increase therefore you publicize that you will only be increasing the price of Toyota/Lexus vehicles for GM's sake. What a load of crap! Toyota just want bigger profits, they just found the perfect excuse to raise prices. How in the hell will raising the price of the Avalon by $300.00 make me go by a Buick. Give me a break. Now they can say what Flip Wilson use to say, "...GM made me do it...".

I'm sure the workers on the assembly line have their faults but this is a management problem. Why are people complaining about the little man getting $28.00 an hour, that's peanuts compared to the millions in salary, bonuses, and stock options that upper management receive. I bet you could pay 1/5 of all the workers salaries with the salaries of the top three managers at GM. I don't see them cutting their pay.

The little guy don't design cars and order all the cheap crappy plastic to be used in GM's cars. So don't blame them for all of GM's problems. Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of unions at all but it's this same management team that signed the stupid contracts.

Back in 1990 GM had 228,000 hourly employees and 58,000 salary employees. Today they have 111,000 (not counting the -25,000) and 44,000 salary employees. Something is wrong with that picture.

When will they realize that people want cars that look good inside and out without making a trip a week to the dealership or a local shop to have the car repaired. I want the choice of keeping my car 10 years instead of being force to buy one every 4 years because it's falling apart.

As far as Toyota increasing their prices to help GM, I think that's a bunch of bull. Someone over there knows that people will buy their cars over GM's reguardless of a small increase therefore you publicize that you will only be increasing the price of Toyota/Lexus vehicles for GM's sake. What a load of crap! Toyota just want bigger profits, they just found the perfect excuse to raise prices. How in the hell will raising the price of the Avalon by $300.00 make me go by a Buick. Give me a break. Now they can say what Flip Wilson use to say, "...GM made me do it...".

They can cut the salary people too... But I never hear about a Sr Buyer getting 16 hours of OT while he slept back in the warehouse.. like i said, I am bitter of hearing these stories all my life..........

You are right, the big 3, with GM leading the way, is way to TOP heavy.... like i said, they have a lot of clean up to do

And why get paid $28 an hour if the job is only worth $12??????????

You have $3 RX's, I soooo feel your pain... not

"Back in 1990 GM had 228,000 hourly employees and 58,000 salary employees. Today they have 111,000 (not counting the -25,000) and 44,000 salary employees. Something is wrong with that picture."

Welcome to 15 years of technology. Which means less and less hourly workers............ This goes for nearly all MFG unless you need manual labor and or cannot get a machine for a reasonable price to assist in your mgf'ing process that saves you $$$$.

dang toyota is so smart for having such foresight...no wonder their cars dominate! just look at how the big bosses think! imagine the engineers...

It is not the common GM workers fault and saying most of them sleep on the job and work drunk is making a pretty unfair generalization. There are problems with people sleeping and drinking on the job in all types of jobs. Also paying workers only $12 an hour is not going to solve anything but make these workers not able to support their families and work massive amounts of overtime. Any money saved will go into top management pockets so they can buy more private jets, stay at more 5 star hotels, buy more yachts, buy more million dollar homes etc. Some of the jobs at GM are not $28 an hour jobs but most of those workers do work hard and deserve what they get. Why is their jobs not worth more then $12 an hour yet just because mommy and daddy payed for college and graduate school many of those people somehow are entitled and deserve high paying jobs when most of these jobs have you just sitting at an airconditioned desk and not working nearly as hard as autoworkers. Some of the so called well educated and highest payed people I have met are the most arrogant shady scumbags and will weasal their way to the top no matter how many people they screw over or get fired. What do lawyers do that are so deserving of high income over auto workers.

You used to be able to make a decent living and provide for your family doing jobs that did not require a college education like building cars, working at stores, working at manufacturing plants etc and now these jobs are getting away with paying people $7-$12 an hour where you can not only support a family but with the cost of things today you can't support yourself on those wages. Even entry level college jobs often don't pay anything and it is going to continue to hurt our economy. There are always top level people in these companies that are multi millionares and have no desire to not get a raise or take a cut in pay to help out the real employees.

I worked at a GM plant over the summer and the vast majority of the workers there worked hard and took pride in their work. They complained that they wanted to build cars like Lexus, Honda, Toyota, Porsche etc but were given subpar designs and materials. I did see one lady who did sleep on the job and she was protected by the union and I had to pretty much do her job as well as mine but that was the exception and not the norm. I don't know how things are in Detroit but it is not like that in every American GM plant and things like that happen in all types of plants and jobs even white collar jobs.

It is not the common GM workers fault and saying most of them sleep on the job and work drunk is making a pretty unfair generalization. There are problems with people sleeping and drinking on the job in all types of jobs. Also paying workers only $12 an hour is not going to solve anything but make these workers not able to support their families and work massive amounts of overtime. Any money saved will go into top management pockets so they can buy more private jets, stay at more 5 star hotels, buy more yachts, buy more million dollar homes etc. Some of the jobs at GM are not $28 an hour jobs but most of those workers do work hard and deserve what they get. Why is their jobs not worth more then $12 an hour yet just because mommy and daddy payed for college and graduate school many of those people somehow are entitled and deserve high paying jobs when most of these jobs have you just sitting at an airconditioned desk and not working nearly as hard as autoworkers. Some of the so called well educated and highest payed people I have met are the most arrogant shady scumbags and will weasal their way to the top no matter how many people they screw over or get fired. What do lawyers do that are so deserving of high income over auto workers.

You used to be able to make a decent living and provide for your family doing jobs that did not require a college education like building cars, working at stores, working at manufacturing plants etc and now these jobs are getting away with paying people $7-$12 an hour where you can not only support a family but with the cost of things today you can't support yourself on those wages. Even entry level college jobs often don't pay anything and it is going to continue to hurt our economy. There are always top level people in these companies that are multi millionares and have no desire to not get a raise or take a cut in pay to help out the real employees.

I worked at a GM plant over the summer and the vast majority of the workers there worked hard and took pride in their work. They complained that they wanted to build cars like Lexus, Honda, Toyota, Porsche etc but were given subpar designs and materials. I did see one lady who did sleep on the job and she was protected by the union and I had to pretty much do her job as well as mine but that was the exception and not the norm. I don't know how things are in Detroit but it is not like that in every American GM plant and things like that happen in all types of plants and jobs even white collar jobs.

Well it is partly their fault,, they keep the UAW around since they like getting over paid and having someone to hide behind............

And sorry, you don't need $22 an hour to drive a hi-lo or to bolt bumpers on. People do temp labor for $10 an hour and work 10 times harder then these people. Ok the 22 an hour isn't so bad, but they end up making 60-70-80k with all the OT, how can you pay someone this much money and expect to get quality cars at a good price out the door........

Yeah that stuff goes on everywhere, someone is always slacking... But when it comes to the plants up here, these are stories people still tell at bbq's and everyone laughs... A quick trend, see how many overseas compaines are building plants in detroit............. yeah do the math, the big 3 won't even build new plants around here since the detroit area auto worker has been shaped into someone you don't want working for you.

06/10/2005

The Asahi Shimbun


Toyota Motor Corp. plans to raise the prices on most of its models in the United States to help its struggling rivals in Detroit and to prevent trade friction from erupting, company sources said.

The price hikes of 2 percent to 3 percent will likely start in October, they said.

The automaker will increase delivery costs for sales companies and reduce incentives, which will force the retailers to make up the difference with bigger price tags, the source said.

In 2004, Toyota posted record profits and sold 2.29 million vehicles in North America, an increase of 10.6 percent from the previous year.

But the fortunes of the so-called Big 3 U.S. automakers went the other way. General Motors Corp. recently announced it would cut 25,000 jobs by 2008 and has expressed its intention to substantially raise its auto prices.

Concerned that Toyota's success in the United States could be viewed as coming at the expense of U.S. automakers, Toyota Chairman Hiroshi Okuda repeatedly said Toyota would need to adjust prices.

He also wants to stave off any potential trade friction that could lead to the "Japan bashing" seen in the United States in the 1980s and 1990s, the sources said.

In the U.S. auto industry, vehicle prices usually change when new models are offered.

But Toyota generally raises prices only as a result of foreign exchange fluctuations or when equipment is added to its cars.

Under the changes in October, the Camry, Toyota's best-selling midsized sedan in the United States, will cost several hundred dollars more than its current price of around $20,000 (2.2 million yen), the sources said.

Toyota officials said they have no immediate plans to significantly revise auto prices in Japan.(

source : asahi.com

By James R. Healey, USA TODAY

For the second time in about two weeks, the chairman of Toyota Motor in Japan said the automaker is likely to raise U.S. prices and give struggling Detroit car companies room to raise theirs — a comment U.S. antitrust experts say is ill-advised and borders on illegal.

Inviting competitors to match your price increases can be illegal "price signaling," says lawyer Jim Weiss, former head of an antitrust unit at the Justice Department and now in private practice at a law firm specializing in antitrust.

If rivals don't follow, no violation. "But it invites the government to look into what you're doing. When the government looks into what you're doing, they frequently find something, even if it's not what they intended," he says.

Toyota Chairman Hiroshi Okuda, speaking in Osaka, Japan, made his most recent price comment after General Motors announced Tuesday that it will close plants and cut 25,000 jobs by 2008 to get its North American auto operations in the black. GM lost $1.3 billion in North America the first quarter.

GM had no comment on Okuda's remarks, which were reported by Japan's Kyodo News and published on U.S. newswires.

Mike Michels, spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales, the automaker's main U.S. unit, says prices might rise because of higher costs or additional features, but "There're not going to be any arbitrary price increases. That's not how we do pricing. I don't think Chairman Okuda meant it that way."

Okuda's reasoning both times, according to wire reports, has been that U.S. automakers can improve earnings if they charge higher prices. He said he's afraid that financial trouble among Detroit car companies will be blamed on tough competition from Japan-based automakers, creating an anti-Japan backlash that could hurt sales.

Toyota is the biggest Japanese brand in the USA. It has 13.3% of the U.S. market through May. It is just 0.7 percentage points, or 48,658 sales, behind No. 3 DaimlerChrysler, according to Autodata.

His most recent price remarks came at a press conference in which Okuda was speaking as chairman of the influential Japan Business Federation.

Antitrust lawyers say the Justice Department is likely to take note of the comments and watch for unusual moves in Detroit automakers' pricing.

Okuda's comments might have the opposite result. Antitrust lawyers say it's possible that Detroit car companies might temporarily skip planned price increases on models that compete directly with Toyota models to prove they are not colluding with Toyota in a price-fixing scheme.

I think this is one of the classiest backhanded comments I've read in a while...Here, since you guys can't run your own business....we're gonna raise our prices to help you since you uhh...suck. <----Folks,. sarcasm with a bit of truth here.

Hahaha remember this is all business and about making money, no one cares about anyone called a competitor. Don't believe the hype. Toyota is about to make a killing and seal the number one spot by the cloak of sentiment, Okuda might as well send GM a thank you card..

Why are people complaining about the little man getting $28.00 an hour,

I agree. I make a LOT more than that myself, even not counting my investments, partly because my work is complex and demanding, but even then I am not considered particularly rich for the area of the country and the county I live in. The average cost of a new home in Fairfax County, VA where I live (one of the richest counties in the nation) is now close to $500,000 and the per capita income is well over $100,000 a year. At $28 an hour you could barely pay the mortgage...not to mention the many other expenses and taxes here.

I agree. I make a LOT more than that myself, even not counting my investments, partly because my work is complex and demanding, but even then I am not considered particularly rich for the area of the country and the county I live in. The average cost of a new home in Fairfax County, VA where I live (one of the richest counties in the nation) is now close to $500,000 and the per capita income is well over $100,000 a year. At $28 an hour you could barely pay the mortgage...not to mention the many other expenses and taxes here.


$28 an hour with a little OT is $60,000. Not sure where you guys come from but being in recruiting, I see people with 1-2 degrees not making this.... So pay a guy 60k for unskilled labor?

People making $28/hr shouldn't be in 500k homes.... Live within your means and minus CA or NY, for most parts, 60k is a "decent" living if you’re not an idiot and dig yourself into debt.

My view if you cannot get enough education to get a job that supports you and your family, then A. You can go back to school and better yourself or B. Your wife can work...........

Sorry not everyone will live a "comfy" life, plain and simple. and it's not a company’s problem to make sure they pay them enough to live the lifestyle you "want", you should get paid for what the job is worth!

Truth, how many people live check to check regardless of their income? I know just as many people making 100k just getting by as those who make 50k.

You are in control of your own life, where you work, how you spend your money, if you choose to go to school or not. This job pays $15 an hour, if that isn't enough for you, then in this country called America, you have OPTIONS.

$28 an hour with a little OT is $60,000. Not sure where you guys come from but being in recruiting, I see people with 1-2 degrees not making this.... So pay a guy 60k for unskilled labor?

People making $28/hr shouldn't be in 500k homes.... Live within your means and minus CA or NY, for most parts, 60k is a "decent" living if you’re not an idiot and dig yourself into debt.

My view if you cannot get enough education to get a job that supports you and your family, then A. You can go back to school and better yourself or B. Your wife can work...........

Sorry not everyone will live a "comfy" life, plain and simple. and it's not a company’s problem to make sure they pay them enough to live the lifestyle you "want", you should get paid for what the job is worth!

Truth, how many people live check to check regardless of their income? I know just as many people making 100k just getting by as those who make 50k.

You are in control of your own life, where you work, how you spend your money, if you choose to go to school or not. This job pays $15 an hour, if that isn't enough for you, then in this country called America, you have OPTIONS.



Hot dog I couldn't have said that any better.. :thumbup:
Can I add C to your option?
If your fortunate you can have handed down to you a successful business. I have no college degrees whats so ever just a Deploma oh and a few community college classes on specifics thats it. We all have choices the future is ours to make even if you never went to a four year college I didn't and neither did my parants and they both are very wealthy. People have more control over their lives they themselves even know, its just that depending on the road you chose it may take more work to get to where you want to go. Let me stop before I turn this into defferent thread because its not my intention.

I don't mean to bring the president into this but he needs to get his arse in this situation. How can ANYONE ignore the fact that Americas 2 largest companies are STRUGGLING and have so for years now. Only Chrysler currently is doing well and guess what, that arse is owned by Germans.

I did't live when JFK and co. were in office but in tons of reading and watching documentaries, he was like WE WILL NOT LOSE TO THE RUSSIANS!!! WE WILL BE THE SPACE LEADERS!!!

It may not have been the best thing to do with money but damnit it helped bring a country TOGETHER and we had a common goal and supported those in the space program trying to make American #1.

Today, the problem is much more REAL. The Space thing was much so about "ego" .This auto thing is about AMERICANS. Bush and co. need to talk to GM and Ford and say "WAKE THE FOCK UP". AMERICA IS A LEADER, NOT A FOLLOWER!!!!

I am AMERICAN, I would love to rock an American car with pride. I am willing to forgive the ABSOLUTE CRAP my family was sold by those SOBs in the 80s and 90s. But give me a good ARGUEMENT!!!

Outside the Vette and Caddy (and I say that loosly), the Ford GT is out my price range, what the HELL is there to buy AMerican that is not one of the best?

Chrysler has got the PICTURE. Give em American big body styling, RWD and V-8s. I see so many 300Cs and Magnums, stock or with rims. And to people, its DESIRABLE. Not some rebate laden sedan/car. It started with the SRT-4, WHY SHOULD IMPORTS BE THE ONLY HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPACTS??? That is why I like the SRT-4, its shows WE CAN COMPETE!!!

I hate to nitpick but actually Wal-mart is the worlds largest and americas largest company at roughly 1.5 million employees.


Anyways I dont think wages and or healthcare is the problem, I dont see why this people are deserving less then those that have a white collar job, seeing how I am young, I have a so called blue collar job, very physical, overnite, but it pays the bills, the amount of work I have to do would be downright unberable for even some posters here, Id probably have fun watching a few people trying to make it through the first nite. But at least in the retail world is one of the few places where a blue collar worker can go up and with commission with a possition as a store manager or above make considerably more then your average lawyer or doctor... about 2 to 3 times more just at the store manager level. Funny since years ago that guy started in the sales floor. Now he is bringing 300,000k a year..

I hate to nitpick but actually Wal-mart is the worlds largest and americas largest company at roughly 1.5 million employees.

We're talking about the Automotive industry, not retail sales. Thanks.

Wal-Mart is also notoriously cheap-paying. I doubt if even the CEO makes 28K. (OK...so that's exaggerating a little)

I hate to nitpick but actually Wal-mart is the worlds largest and americas largest company at roughly 1.5 million employees.


i heard walmart was exploring the possibility of a used car dealership network....what's next? buyout GM?

Wal-Mart is also notoriously cheap-paying. I doubt if even the CEO makes 28K. (OK...so that's exaggerating a little)

Wal-mart is notoriously cheap paying till about.. store manager level after that they start getting some real nice bonuses. But then again the type of labor expected from a walmart employee, lets just say theyd be fired on teh spot where im at right now. Compounded this low wage problem by fact that it takes for ****ing ever to be promoted there to manager. Another sharp contrast to where I am at now. I have a friend in walgreens, he started at 6.15.... 2 years later.... 45k a year. For him its comfortable at the moment.

i heard walmart was exploring the possibility of a used car dealership network....what's next? buyout GM?

I dont think ive heard this rumor and I am quite a bit skeptical... but i wouldnt buy one.. have you seen their tire options?....... I think my bare wheels will grip as well.

$28 an hour with a little OT is $60,000. Not sure where you guys come from but being in recruiting, I see people with 1-2 degrees not making this.... So pay a guy 60k for unskilled labor?

.

Some jobs in an auto factory are, as you say...relatively unskilled. Some are not. Some no longer exist at all, thanks to robot welders, painters, etc....

And...for the jobs NOT done by machine.....your life and mine could literally be riding on the quality of work that those people do....even if it is just putting relatively simple like putting on a wheel / tire assembly with an impact wrench. Put the lugs on too tight and they strip, warp the brake rotors and are almost impossible to get off.....too loose and the wheels could fall off.
One of the reasons (among many others, of course) why Toyota and Lexus produce such good vehicles is the quality of the people in the plants......quality they are willing to pay for.

One of the reasons (among many others, of course) why Toyota and Lexus produce such good vehicles is the quality of the people in the plants......quality they are willing to pay for.


Money\Salary doesn't dictate pride in your work. A clear reason why they are now building plants in the south... I worked for a Tier 1 that had one plant in Metro Detroit, and one out in the sticks over an hour away. The wages were lower in the sticks plant, but production and quality could never be matched by the Metro Detroit plant. They had a bunch of "country folk" that took pride in there work, not someone who is use to itching to the UAW for more money\less work.

Sorry homey, 12th grade education while your using a robot that does most the work for you, or if your driving a hi-lo or a puller in the warehouse, it's not worth $50,000-60,000 on a 40 for this.

You should take pride in your work if it's $10\hr or $40\hr, plain and simple.

Salary in my mind is skill needed, coupled with demand for that type of skill along with talent supply... Fact is if Ford put a sign outside saying $35,000\yr for line workers, there would be a line a mile long to take those $60,000 retards jobs who say the UAW is god day in and day out.

It is not the common GM workers fault and saying most of them sleep on the job and work drunk is making a pretty unfair generalization. There are problems with people sleeping and drinking on the job in all types of jobs. Also paying workers only $12 an hour is not going to solve anything but make these workers not able to support their families and work massive amounts of overtime. Any money saved will go into top management pockets so they can buy more private jets, stay at more 5 star hotels, buy more yachts, buy more million dollar homes etc. Some of the jobs at GM are not $28 an hour jobs but most of those workers do work hard and deserve what they get. Why is their jobs not worth more then $12 an hour yet just because mommy and daddy payed for college and graduate school many of those people somehow are entitled and deserve high paying jobs when most of these jobs have you just sitting at an airconditioned desk and not working nearly as hard as autoworkers. Some of the so called well educated and highest payed people I have met are the most arrogant shady scumbags and will weasal their way to the top no matter how many people they screw over or get fired. What do lawyers do that are so deserving of high income over auto workers.

You used to be able to make a decent living and provide for your family doing jobs that did not require a college education like building cars, working at stores, working at manufacturing plants etc and now these jobs are getting away with paying people $7-$12 an hour where you can not only support a family but with the cost of things today you can't support yourself on those wages. Even entry level college jobs often don't pay anything and it is going to continue to hurt our economy. There are always top level people in these companies that are multi millionares and have no desire to not get a raise or take a cut in pay to help out the real employees.

I worked at a GM plant over the summer and the vast majority of the workers there worked hard and took pride in their work. They complained that they wanted to build cars like Lexus, Honda, Toyota, Porsche etc but were given subpar designs and materials. I did see one lady who did sleep on the job and she was protected by the union and I had to pretty much do her job as well as mine but that was the exception and not the norm. I don't know how things are in Detroit but it is not like that in every American GM plant and things like that happen in all types of plants and jobs even white collar jobs.

I think its unfair how people are so quickly to blame the unions. Are the Toyota and other "import" factories in America unionized also? If not, I still assume that they pay as well if not better than GM.

Also, it is the designs and marketing of many of the GM cars that suck. Who in their right mind would buy a Pontiac G6 over the 300M :uh: The workers are doing what they can while the executives arent. Even if you get the Monte Carlo or Malibu hand assembled on a dolley in Ferrari's plant in Italy or the NSX's plant in Japan, it would still be a piece of crap fugly fwd car. GM needs to get back on the drawing board and either redesign or scrap almost every car on its lineup. As were speaking, there going to soon release a new FWD V8 SS Monte Carlo :egads:

I think its unfair how people are so quickly to blame the unions. Are the Toyota and other "import" factories in America unionized also? If not, I still assume that they pay as well if not better than GM.

Also, it is the designs and marketing of many of the GM cars that suck. Who in their right mind would buy a Pontiac G6 over the 300M :uh: The workers are doing what they can while the executives arent. Even if you get the Monte Carlo or Malibu hand assembled on a dolley in Ferrari's plant in Italy or the NSX's plant in Japan, it would still be a piece of crap fugly fwd car. GM needs to get back on the drawing board and either redesign or scrap almost every car on its lineup. As were speaking, there going to soon release a new FWD V8 SS Monte Carlo :egads:

Article from 7/03, not sure if this still stands true.

"None of the automaker's U.S. plants is unionized."

Yep, real quick to blame the unions. Maybe you need to live here, have your freinds and family work for the UAW then you will understand. There is a REASON why Detroit is losing the name "motor city" because all the plants are moving elsewhere!

I recall a story from an old plant manager friend. About a plant down south, may have been a toyota or honda plant. UAW bought up a ton of billboards on the freeway leading to the building. 12 months later they gave up. People are not stupid, they seen what the unions have done to the auto industry in Michigan.

And they don't make UAW wages, but they make fair wages with no BS and they treat their employees WELL Because if you show up and do YOUR JOB, you don't need to hide behind a union.........

Walmart is one of the most wealthy franchises yet they pay their workers nothing and in turn you get poor service and a crappy reputation for the store catering to a lower class people. Walmart has even been known to use illegal immigrants and pay them much less then minimum wage. All this money goes into the pocket of a handful of top executives etc who have hundreds of millions of dollars and have no intention of sharing their wealth with the people who helped make them wealthy. This is true with many companies and businesses these days. It is one of the reasons we have such a huge low income segment in our country because most jobs that you used to make a comfortable living with now pay their workers nothing. Not all jobs require a college degree and many jobs that do require a college degree, you really don't have to go to college to do the job. Not everyone can afford or wants to go to college. You should not be penalized for not going to college to poor paying jobs. There are not enough "college degree" jobs out there to support most Americans. The lower you pay people the less they can buy and our economy goes down which cause middle and upper class people to loose money in mutual funds, investments, etc. People should get payed what is fair, can live on, how long they worked, how successful the company is etc instead of what someone says is worthy of a high paycheck. Many white collar people would not be able to handle working in a autoplant or other blue collard jobs and many of these blue collar workers could easily do what white collar workers do. The Toyota and Honda plants are non union but they still pay workers $18+ an hour and they make profits and high quality products.

Just because people get jobs that require college, graduate and high GPA does not mean they are working any harder or deserving of more pay then blue collar workers. Workers making $22-28 an hour is not GM's problem but the problem goes to the top where people are making millions to several hundred thousand a year and greedy shady auto unions. Instead of lowering wages on blue collar jobs that some people deam unskilled labor or not worth a good paycheck how about they lower salaries on white collar jobs and try to make things a little more even. It will actaully be better for the economy if they did this. CEOs, lawyers, managers, high level executives, investors, consultants, stadium owners, number crunchers, etc do not really need or deserve to be payed hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a year either even if they did go to ivy league colleges and have graduate degrees or high GPAs.

Walmart is one of the most wealthy franchises yet they pay their workers nothing and in turn you get poor service and a crappy reputation for the store catering to a lower class people. Walmart has even been known to use illegal immigrants and pay them much less then minimum wage. All this money goes into the pocket of a handful of top executives etc who have hundreds of millions of dollars and have no intention of sharing their wealth with the people who helped make them wealthy. This is true with many companies and businesses these days. It is one of the reasons we have such a huge low income segment in our country because most jobs that you used to make a comfortable living with now pay their workers nothing. Not all jobs require a college degree and many jobs that do require a college degree, you really don't have to go to college to do the job. Not everyone can afford or wants to go to college. You should not be penalized for not going to college to poor paying jobs. There are not enough "college degree" jobs out there to support most Americans. The lower you pay people the less they can buy and our economy goes down which cause middle and upper class people to loose money in mutual funds, investments, etc. People should get payed what is fair, can live on, how long they worked, how successful the company is etc instead of what someone says is worthy of a high paycheck. Many white collar people would not be able to handle working in a autoplant or other blue collard jobs and many of these blue collar workers could easily do what white collar workers do. The Toyota and Honda plants are non union but they still pay workers $18+ an hour and they make profits and high quality products.

Just because people get jobs that require college, graduate and high GPA does not mean they are working any harder or deserving of more pay then blue collar workers. Workers making $22-28 an hour is not GM's problem but the problem goes to the top where people are making millions to several hundred thousand a year and greedy shady auto unions. Instead of lowering wages on blue collar jobs that some people deam unskilled labor or not worth a good paycheck how about they lower salaries on white collar jobs and try to make things a little more even. It will actaully be better for the economy if they did this. CEOs, lawyers, managers, high level executives, investors, consultants, stadium owners, number crunchers, etc do not really need or deserve to be payed hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a year either even if they did go to ivy league colleges and have graduate degrees or high GPAs.

Thats what I like about the retail bussiness your promotion depends solely on your skill as a worker and your worth ethic. If you have a bussiness degree you might just might skip an hourly position and get a entry level management position... or you can work as an hourly associate and get there in about same time or less then what it takes to finish college. Best of both worlds is to go to school and work imo. However higher ups ussually rely on work experience alone to handle the job, believe me no college anywhere will teach you how to run a major retail franchise with classes alone.

Thats what I like about the retail bussiness your promotion depends solely on your skill as a worker and your worth ethic. If you have a bussiness degree you might just might skip an hourly position and get a entry level management position... or you can work as an hourly associate and get there in about same time or less then what it takes to finish college. Best of both worlds is to go to school and work imo. However higher ups ussually rely on work experience alone to handle the job, believe me no college anywhere will teach you how to run a major retail franchise with classes alone.

Well you're not going to get rich working a manager position at Walgreens or Walmart. You're right, college degree or not, will not teach you how to run a retail franchise, but then again, without a college degree and good experience, you're not going to become wealthy advance above the middle class with that type of job. Any higher management job requires experience. They don't just give a management job to any non-experienced worker. That's already a given. I'd rather have the backing of a business degree than work my way up to the top in the same amount of years. Because if anything happens with the job you worked 4 years to get to, the same person w/the business degree isn't stuck in a dead end job at a retail store only.

I think we lost a little focus here. We were originally talking about Toyota's concern for GM's livelihood. Let's discuss the automotive industry, business models, market pricing and how it affects the US & world economy. If you want to talk about how to work your way to the top of your local Wal-Mart, you can talk about it in the Clubhouse.

Thanks.

You can use me as one of your references.

:thumbup:

Hey Mike, keep me in mind once you're in and have flushed out the clogged toilet that is GM upper management.

M.

Just because people get jobs that require college, graduate and high GPA does not mean they are working any harder or deserving of more pay then blue collar workers.

Umm, if you go to a good school (which is free btw with all the school loans and grants nowadays) and work your ass off to get, say one of the more difficult engineering degrees or a nursing degree, etc....
Yeah they are MORE deserving of more pay than blue collar types... thats just how it is...

everyone can go to school and expand themselves if they want to, its too easy to get school money these days ESPECIALLY if you're a minority
everyone can get a degree that they want if they work hard enough...

and after all that they deserve the extra money their degree entails... they worked hard to get it

Well you're not going to get rich working a manager position at Walgreens or Walmart. You're right, college degree or not, will not teach you how to run a retail franchise, but then again, without a college degree and good experience, you're not going to become wealthy advance above the middle class with that type of job. Any higher management job requires experience. They don't just give a management job to any non-experienced worker. That's already a given. I'd rather have the backing of a business degree than work my way up to the top in the same amount of years. Because if anything happens with the job you worked 4 years to get to, the same person w/the business degree isn't stuck in a dead end job at a retail store only.

Store manager, district manager, regional manager and finally even home office leadership positions.

These people make more money then the so called white collar workers. Store manager in Lowe's for example, is said they could theoritically become a millionaire in 5 years of that position. Their base pay is already in the 6 digit figures, and their bonuses are absolutely huge if their store is succesful, about 150 percent addition to their base pay. (imagine having a 200k bonus?)
I fail to see how this is a dead end job. And not everyone in those positions have college degrees.

A bussiness degree helps but its not an absolute necessity nor will anyone be stuck in a dead end position without it. Work experience is valued greatly in this bussiness. As well as their own bussiness and management courses which are quite extensive. Thus the reason why college degree helps, but is not required, because they teach you everything you need to know.
A store manager in home depot, when he left the company and went to a rival company, his experience was valued to the point where he could resume his career at the point he left it at home depot with lowes.

The only drawback to this bussiness well drawback for most people here, is that this bussiness well some workaholics lurk around I have witnessed dedicated people come in at 4 am, leave at 8 pm, and be back next day at 4 am.

Not to mention that their stock options and 401k plans in addition to their decent wages are more then adequate.

But honestly rarely will anyone get trully wealthy working for someone else, generally speaking people that start their own enterprises and become succesful are the ones that make the most.

I think we lost a little focus here. We were originally talking about Toyota's concern for GM's livelihood. Let's discuss the automotive industry, business models, market pricing and how it affects the US & world economy. If you want to talk about how to work your way to the top of your local Wal-Mart, you can talk about it in the Clubhouse.

Thanks.

Like Flip said, let's get back on topic...........Toyota / GM marketing.

I'm not convinced that higher prices for Toyota ( and other Japanese firms) are the way to go for GM's troubles. You older guys here at CL, I'm sure, can remember with me that this has been tried before....several times. During the Reagan Administration, in the early-mid 1980's, tariffs and quotas on Japanese vehicles made them hard to get and allowed dealer price markups...particularly at Honda, whose Accord and CRX were selling like gold. This was done primarily to " protect " the domestic industry and save jobs (the industry was much less global back then) from an "invasion" of cheap, reliable Japanese products. Reagan himself did not like the idea...he was a classic free-trader.....but caved in from political pressure and pressure from the UAW. (Toyota and Honda did not yet have U.S. plants). The quotas and higher prices worked for a time.....it DID insulate the domestic industry for a time.....but what did Detroit do with this temporary "protection"? Did they start producing better products so they could start catching up? NO...they did NOT. In fact, because the quotas insulated them from Japanese competition, they RAISED prices substantially several times WITHOUT a corresponding increase in quality. In fact, GM and Chrysler made some of their all-time worst vehicles, quality-wise, during this period. The Big Three took advantage of this insulation from competition to increase short-term profits and little else. In fact, this was the period when I myself finally had enough of American junk and defected to Japanese cars....even with dealer mark-ups.....starting with a Mazda GLC...a car which had some design flaws but was MUCH better then the typical domestic product of the time. With one exception...a Saturn SL-2......I have not returned to the domestic product since.
Again in the mid-1990's the extreme dollar-yen ratio produced very high prices for Japanese-nameplate cars in relation to the domestic competition. Again, Detroit was offered an opportunity to improve its products by the higher prices for the Japanese competition, and this time they responded a little better but still not very impressively, IMO.
So....now what makes people think that a new round of price increases for Japanese-nameplate cars will change GM any more than in the past? The only difference between now and then is that now it will hurt American as well as Japanese workers because unlike 20 years ago, Americans now assemble Japanese-nameplate cars here in American plants.

Instead of raising prices, why doesn't Toyota give GM some help in the quality and design areas? Give them pointers on cost cutting, factory improvement and give them some market research on designs and features the public is looking for. Teach them how to get vendors to lower prices and raise the quality of the products they produce. That would make more sense to me.

For the record I dont work at ****ing wal-mart.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anywho, GM has increased quality of their cars. The new Cobalt is in my oppinion a superior offering to the current Civic for example( how long will this last is yet to be determined since the new model is coming up), and leaps and bounds better then the outdated j bodied cavalier it replaced. Reading some responses by some members here it seems that maybe some guys here are judging GM by the shady quality products they used to have decade or 2 ago.

Rather then GM being plagued by quality problems in its current line up, its more like its being hurt by its image it got for years upon years of unleashing substandard products into the market place.

I also think that by default domestic manufacturers have some serious competitive disadvantages to foreign ones to some extent. For example many countries have a national healtcare system, a huge cost That GM would not be burdened by, if USA also had a national healthcare coverage. Part of the reason why you see domestic manufacturing plants move both north and south since both of those nations have nation wide healthcare.

One thing where Im positive GM is blowing it however is reverting to having FWD V8 powered SS midsize sedans, that give a marginally better performance then its next strongest V6 competitors. Especially since they already have a brand new Zeta platform already developed for their austrialian and middle eastern line up. Although I guess having a 303 hp 4 door midsize sedan for 27,000 grand isnt a bad deal, even if it is fwd.

I wonder how a Impala SS would match against a lighter but less powerful Nissan Altima SE-R?

Although I think the TrailBlazer SS is looking out to be a down right awesome hit! out performing X5 4.8is not being far behind a Cayenne Turbo for half and nearly 1/3rd of the price? If I were to get a new SUV this might be it! 391 hp for 35k and nurburgring sport tuned suspension included!

The Pontiac G6 is a great example of poor marketing and lackluster appeal but only to fleet and rental car agencies.

I also think that by default domestic manufacturers have some serious competitive disadvantages to foreign ones to some extent. For example many countries have a national healtcare system, a huge cost That GM would not be burdened by, if USA also had a national healthcare coverage. Part of the reason why you see domestic manufacturing plants move both north and south since both of those nations have nation wide healthcare.

You don't think Toyota is burdened by US healthcare? Toyota employs 37,000 employees in North America alone from TMS in Torrance, all the way to the many plants across the US, but for the most part, most of Toyota's North American operations are here in the United States alone. There is TMMC in Canada and TMMBC in Mexico.

The Pontiac G6 is a great example of poor marketing and lackluster appeal but only to fleet and rental car agencies.

Its still not a subpar product and definitively not a bad buy especially when considering that you get a V6 mind you not a high performance V6 but still a mean of 40 hp extra, for the same price that would land you the base model 4 cylinder options from Honda, Mazda, Nissan or Toyota. And definitively a huge step up from the relic that is the Grand Am, honestly I think the G6 got unfair bashing. If I were looking for a 20k or less family sedan and I can get get a V6, vs an I4, id probably opt for the V6.

READ the article on "what went wrong at GM" in the July Issue of "Smart Money" pg 78-82

Wow, JPA is right, the UAW has a lot to do with the companies demise. Funny I got my mag today with this article. Here are some scary facts.
1. GM market share is 25.4%, its lowest since Henry Ford was selling the Model T.
2. GM stock price is NO HIGHER than it was in 1962.
3. Between pension fund and heath care, $165 BILLION is promised to workers. Only 17 billion is left for stock holders.
4. Only 13% of GMs workers are under 40 years old
5. GM has 150k employees but has to procinde heath care for 1. 1 million people.
6. The health care is LAVISH. UAW members pay 7% compares to the avg 32% out of pocket for medical.
7. GM spends $1,525 on health care (Ford $1,100, Toyota $400)
8. GM has improved, only 2.9 workers needed to assemble cars, that number was 4.6 in 1992.
9. This **** began with a stike in 1936. Walter REuther is the dude that started the UAW and fighting with GM/Ford/Chrysler.
10. This guy and his successors got SWEET ASS deals for workers every 3 years, the contract got better and better.
11. He negotiated one company after the other, so when the first agreed, the others would too.
12. From 1947-1977, GM was king ding a ling. Every YEAR sales in the U.S and Canada rose 4.5 percent from 4 million to 15 million.
13. For 20 STRAIGHT years, GM was first in sales among American corporations and 16 of those years, 1st in PROFITS!
14. GM auto share was around 45%, peaking with 50.7% of the market in 1962.
15. GM cannot be profitable with a 20% market share.
16. When GM IDLES a damn plant, workers get 95% of their pay. Their wages are 60% higher than the avg American worker.

Its still not a subpar product and definitively not a bad buy especially when considering that you get a V6 mind you not a high performance V6 but still a mean of 40 hp extra, for the same price that would land you the base model 4 cylinder options from Honda, Mazda, Nissan or Toyota.

Have you sat or driven a G6? Material quality interior/exterior are exactly like it's bigger brother, the Grand Prix....cheap. I'd still rather opt for the 4cyl Accord, Altima, 6 or Camry despite the fact it's 40 hp less than the G6's slow 8 second 0-60 V6. The quality and value you know with the Japanese competition will outlast and overcome the power and added options you can get w/the G6. I wouldn't doubt in 5 years or 10 years of ownership, the Japanese offerings will still hold it's value and still run strong compared to the G6.

You don't think Toyota is burdened by US healthcare? Toyota employs 37,000 employees in North America alone from TMS in Torrance, all the way to the many plants across the US, but for the most part, most of Toyota's North American operations are here in the United States alone. There is TMMC in Canada and TMMBC in Mexico.

Not to the extent General Motors is that employs well over 121,000 employees in the united states alone. Not to mention retired employees that are still covered.

For the record I dont work at ****ing wal-mart.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anywho, GM has increased quality of their cars.

Reading some responses by some members here it seems that maybe some guys here are judging GM by the shady quality products they used to have decade or 2 ago.

Rather then GM being plagued by quality problems in its current line up, its more like its being hurt by its image it got for years upon years of unleashing substandard products into the market place.



Not working at Wal-mart is probably the reason you can afford a nice car.

As for GM's quality (and Chrysler's) , it is both. The poor quality of most domestic 1980's vintage vehicles was not just an an image...it was a fact. In some 36 years of experience with vehicles, the 1980 Chevolet Citation was the worst new car ever owned, defect-wise, and the 1984 Pontiac Fiero and 1987 Hyundai Excel were the worst new cars I ever test-drove.....and believe me, I was not alone. 1980's vintage Chrysler products were almost as poor...but their problems were mostly in less-critical areas of rattles and loose assembly. Yes, today's domestically-designed GM products are somewhat better, but they still trail the better Japanese-nameplate cars by a large margin...with the exception of a few Nissan and Mitsubishi products. While GM, as you say, has shown some improvement in fit-and-finish, especially in the very newest models like the Buick LaCrosse and Pontiac G6, (although Flip doesn't think much of the G6 in general and I don't either) in other areas it has lagged far behind...as in the ongoing and persistent brake problems in the larger trucks and SUV's....and the rest of the world has not stood still, as witnessed by Toyota's impressive success and Hyundai's even more impressive rise in recent years.

It still brings us back to the question of Toyota deliberately raising prices to keep GM from going down the tubes. I explained in detail in my last post why I think that is a bad idea..and how GM has not learned from past " protection " . GM's history shows that this has not worked in the past...I highly doubt that it will work today.

Have you sat or driven a G6? Material quality interior/exterior are exactly like it's bigger brother, the Grand Prix....cheap. I'd still rather opt for the 4cyl Accord, Altima, 6 or Camry despite the fact it's 40 hp less than the G6's slow 8 second 0-60 V6. The quality and value you know with the Japanese competition will outlast and overcome the power and added options you can get w/the G6. I wouldn't doubt in 5 years or 10 years of ownership, the Japanese offerings will still hold it's value and still run strong compared to the G6.

Yes I have In fact I was a driving supervisor for a trucking national weekend and had plenty of seat time in the G6 as well as other cars. I found the cars handling dynamic surprisingly nimble for a fwder, and rather forgiving especially to the demands that some patrons were putting on the demo car. I found the car to be adequate and its fit and finish to be tolerable. Id trade a slight trade off fit and finish for slightly sportier driver dynamic and accelaration. And its fit and finish was comparable to some japanese offerings.

Not to the extent General Motors is that employs well over 121,000 employees in the united states alone. Not to mention retired employees that are still covered.

Well that's something GM has to figure out quickly w/their structure. Obviously GM isn't the company to follow a business model after and that's the reason why it's imported competition is pulling strong to their demise.

its fit and finish was comparable to some japanese offerings.

Well if you compare it to Nissan, it's pretty evident in that deparment. ;)

Not working at Wal-mart is probably the reason you can afford a nice car.

As for GM's quality (and Chrysler's) , it is both. The poor quality of most domestic 1980's vintage vehicles was not just an an image...it was a fact. In some 36 years of experience with vehicles, the 1980 Chevolet Citation was the worst new car ever owned, defect-wise, and the 1984 Pontiac Fiero and 1987 Hyundai Excel were the worst new cars I ever test-drove.....and believe me, I was not alone. 1980's vintage Chrysler products were almost as poor...but their problems were mostly in less-critical areas of rattles and loose assembly. Yes, today's domestically-designed GM products are somewhat better, but they still trail the better Japanese-nameplate cars by a large margin...with the exception of a few Nissan and Mitsubishi products. While GM has shown some improvement, it other areas it has lagged far behind...as in the ongoing and persistent brake problems in the larger trucks and SUV's....and the rest of the world has not stood still, as witnessed by Toyota's impressive success and Hyundai's even more impressive rise in recent years.

It still brings us back to the question of Toyota deliberately raising prices to keep GM from going down the tubes. I explained in detail in my last post why I think that is a bad idea..and how GM has not learned from past " protection " . GM's history shows that this has not worked in the past...I highly doubt that it will work today.


My "nice car" is a 1995 Lexus SC300 while the other is a 240sx , if you do the maintenance yourself, and know where to shop for parts the car becomes somewhat affordable, and cheaper to find then say a 2002 neon even if someone were to work at walmart (ok I take it back I dont know how walmart employees survive!). I know employees in my local Wal-mart that drives an S2000.... shes married but still. Another worker had a modified 2002 Audi A Although walmart is a decent company (if youre manager or above) for me at the time of moving to a new city it was more like a temp agency type job till i found a much better one,thats all in the past however. Although I wonder if some employees had special treatment with their pay rates?.

Anyways (bah why do I keep going off topic?) yes I do agree that protection is pretty much the welfare of the car industry and very very bad news for people like us, the consumer. No argument from me there, but I can't help but notice that its skeletons in the closet of the past thats catching up to GM rather then its current trend. Perhaps they decided to improve its line up when it was just simply way to late?

Flip and Inabj2 are both correct here to an extent. The G6 does have noticeably better fit-and-finish than the Grand Prix and the former Grand Am, but the materials used for assembly....especially in the interior.....IMO are still rather flimsy and cheap feeling. They just don't LOOK quite as cheap as before because GM is finally starting to figure out again ( as it did in the 1960's ) how to assemble and detail their interiors using cheap materials.

Flip and Inabj2 are both correct here to an extent. The G6 does have noticeably better fit-and-finish than the Grand Prix and the former Grand Am, but the materials used for assembly....especially in the interior.....IMO are sGM to to spend $200 more in car interiorstill rather flimsy and cheap feeling. They just don't LOOK quite as cheap as before because GM is finally starting to figure out again ( as it did in the 1960's ) how to assemble and detail their interiors using cheap materials.
Not just that but the actual design of the interior is just to odd for most. Conservative is in with interiors. GM also still uses too much damn grey in the interior. Grey seats and plastics all around. Its ridiculous. http://www.jayauto.com/pontiac/gt_int1.jpg http://pontiac.jbcarpages.com/G6/2005/Bilder/2005%20Pontiac%20G6%20Interior.jpg http://www.gmcanada.com/images/vehicles/2005/pontiac/gpg6/pont_gpg6_opti_main.jpg

Its not bad but GM needs to realize it needs to be class leading or up to class leading. BTW, not sure ya'll seen this.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Industry/Daily_Edition/Daily_Edition_Jun_1_2005.S173.A8694.html

GM to to spend $200 more in car interior

There IS SOME hope, though, for GM interiors...though I agree with you there is too much gray. Notice, in the top picture, that there is a three-spoke Toyota-derived steering wheel.....the same one as on the Corolla, Celica, MR2, RAV4, Matrix, and Lexus IS300. ( I have an IS300 and recognized it immediately ). The only difference is that the Celica's and IS300's have the transmission buttons on the spokes....the others don't. No doubt that wheel came from the parts bin used for the Pontiac Vibe...a Toyota Matrix twin. And the nice chrome rings around the gauges (probably just chromized plastic) don't hurt either.

Actually it's similar and fashioned after but not the same. The Corolla, Voltz, Celica, Matrix & MR2 used the same steering wheel and obviously w/the Vibe. But they are not the same. The only buttons these particular Toyota derived wheels have are the e-shift buttons for the Celica GTS and MR2 SMG and the cruise control switch.

http://images.autobytel.com/view/aic/PONTIAC/VIBE/wgn/usa_2005_pontiac_vibe_wgn_4_x_indrvrdash_x.jpg
http://images.autobytel.com/view/aic/TOYOTA/CELICA/lbk/usa_2005_toyota_celica_lbk_2_x_indrvrdash_x.jpg
http://images.autobytel.com/view/aic/LEXUS/IS300/sdn/usa_2005_lexus_is300_sdn_4_x_indrvrdash_x.jpg
http://asjornal.ru/img2004/26_0207/voltz/voltz4.jpg
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/ToyotaCorolla/Images/Dash-S.jpg
http://www.toyoland.com/images/mr2-interior.jpg
http://www.toyota-altezza.co.uk/Altezza_Steering.JPG

I'm actually hoping Antitrust laws will prevent Toyota from inflating the prices.:p How about you?

http://biz.yahoo.com/usat/050609/12928284.html

USATODAY.com
Price remarks by Toyota chief could be illegal
Thursday June 9, 9:41 pm ET

For the second time in about two weeks, the chairman of Toyota Motor in Japan said the automaker is likely to raise U.S. prices and give struggling Detroit car companies room to raise theirs - a comment U.S. antitrust experts say is ill-advised and borders on illegal.

Inviting competitors to match your price increases can be illegal "price signaling," says lawyer Jim Weiss, former head of an antitrust unit at the Justice Department and now in private practice at a law firm specializing in antitrust.

If rivals don't follow, no violation. "But it invites the government to look into what you're doing. When the government looks into what you're doing, they frequently find something, even if it's not what they intended," he says.

Toyota Chairman Hiroshi Okuda, speaking in Osaka, Japan, made his most recent price comment after General Motors announced Tuesday that it will close plants and cut 25,000 jobs by 2008 to get its North American auto operations in the black. GM lost $1.3 billion in North America the first quarter.

GM had no comment on Okuda's remarks, which were reported by Japan's Kyodo News and published on U.S. newswires.

Mike Michels, spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales, the automaker's main U.S. unit, says prices might rise because of higher costs or additional features, but "There're not going to be any arbitrary price increases. That's not how we do pricing. I don't think Chairman Okuda meant it that way."

Okuda's reasoning both times, according to wire reports, has been that U.S. automakers can improve earnings if they charge higher prices. He said he's afraid that financial trouble among Detroit car companies will be blamed on tough competition from Japan-based automakers, creating an anti-Japan backlash that could hurt sales.

Toyota is the biggest Japanese brand in the USA. It has 13.3% of the U.S. market through May. It is just 0.7 percentage points, or 48,658 sales, behind No. 3 DaimlerChrysler, according to Autodata.

His most recent price remarks came at a press conference in which Okuda was speaking as chairman of the influential Japan Business Federation.

Antitrust lawyers say the Justice Department is likely to take note of the comments and watch for unusual moves in Detroit automakers' pricing.

Okuda's comments might have the opposite result. Antitrust lawyers say it's possible that Detroit car companies might temporarily skip planned price increases on models that compete directly with Toyota models to prove they are not colluding with Toyota in a price-fixing scheme.

Repost ;) (in another thread :p )