OK, enough time has passed that maybe the Acura fanatics who proclaimed the RL as the second coming and the Lexus fanatics who revere all things Lexus can both calm down. The RL has steadily sunken in the comparos, as most of us predicted, and isn't even included with most of the V8 RWDs anymore. That is natural. I find the new GS fairly disappointing all things considered and at least one magazine has said that when the 5 gets the new V8 they will not compare it to the current crop of midsize V8 wannabes, the motor makes that much difference. And the RL is just trying to bring a knife to a gun fight in this case.

But what started this was a salesman who called on Monday who was driving a new RL, still did not have plates. I was about as lukewarn to both the RL and the software he was peddling but he talked more about the RL than his product. And he mentioned very little about the RL other than the price. He paid 42.5K for the RL. Most salesmen aren't great shoppers so I assume this is not a hard deal to come by. I have to think about this. At 50 large I believed and still do believe that the RL is out of its class, no matter how good it might be (let's keep the flames on the car out, this thread is about the deal). But at 42.5, especially in light of the price escalation taking place on most everything else, this might make it worth a look.

That's the good news for us consumers. The bad news is for Acura and the Acura fanatics. The only reason you discount like that on a car that was "value priced" with no options is because the market has voted. The RL is not selling at the price point they hoped it would. Maybe it won't sell at the lower price point. Maybe there is more wrong with the RL than the price. But for you AWD mandaters, it is there and at a more attractive price. If you bought one when it first came out and paid the 50 large, or more, I pity you. Normal new car depreciation isn't all you have to deal with. You could end up losing half the value of your car in a year. Ouch.

 

The RL has sunken in comparos? Which comparos are you talking about, the same ones (plural) that the GS300 placed last in, below the RL? The RL isn't being included in the V8 RWD tests because the RL is an AWD V6. For the RL to have ever even been considered being tested against a RWD V8 does nothing but complement the car considering how opposite it is from a RWD V8 car.

Keep in mind that an Infiniti M35x and GS300X equipped similarly to an RL cost more. The RL is straight dead in the right class. Why do I believe the RL is selling in limited numbers? Not everyone wants AWD nor does everyone want a fully loaded car. If Acura sold the RL with many of its standard features being options, then too could the RL sport an MSRP of low $40's.

Acura could care less what the dealers are selling them for. Acura has already gotten their money once the dealer takes delivery of the car. LIke I said, the RL is priced at $50,000 fully loaded. There are no options you can add to it. Nobody has paid more than $50,000 for an RL because Acura just doesn't sell an RL equipped any different than it is right now.

Have you done any research on the RL? Maybe you should take a look at the several auto journalists that have placed the RL in first place in many categories. Most importantly, other than just saying your dissapointed with the Lexus GS and the RL is not worth it, what exactly was the point of posting this thread?

 

My goodness, thanks for showing that the Acura fanatics are alive and well. If you think that a car that is as new as the RL going out the door at a 15% discount is of no consequence to the manufacturer then you know very little about automotive economics. I will see if I can turn it up but there was a comparo recently where the RL was thrown in with many V8 RWD cars in the 50 to 60 K range and I believe the RL only beat the Cadillac. The RL placed first in most comparos - when it came out. It has slid, as it should as other cars are replaced with newer models. I can't believe anyone would pay more for list for a car either but if you don't think that happens you haven't been around cars very long. Or you have only concentrated on cars like Acuras that even when they are the newest kid on the block can't command a premium. Even Chrysler was able to get over sticker for a time on certain models.

But I really would rather not sink to the level where this is headed. I still don't know whether I would be interested in an RL or not, I have just not been that impressed with it. But what I wanted to point out was that it is very easy to get a significant discount. And in case you haven't taken economics, you don't heavily discount product that is in great demand. You discount as you have to to get rid of things. I am not saying that is what Acura is doing but I am very surprised that with the good press this car did receive many times that a) I have not seen more on the road and b) the magnitude of the discounts that can be gotten on it. If you bought one at 48 to 50K your resale has taken a big hit because people can buy brand new ones now for 42.5.

Maybe I am reading too much into that. Maybe you are reading too little into it. I am neither an Acura basher nor a Lexus right or wrong supporter. But I don't ignore what the market says and that discount is significant. I am also not a fan of AWD but good grief there has been a large number of people here waiting for the current GS specifically to get AWD. Look back through the GS boards with postings on features on the new model at dates before the current model was introduced. So I assume that Acura provided an alternative that provides AWD. But getting 15% off an AWD GS300 might be a very difficult task. Now and for sometime in the future. Thanks for pointing out some of the benefits of the RL however. But this topic was discussed and flamed to a great extent when the RL came out. The RL hasn't changed, but the economics of acquiring one has. I was just trying to let us Lexus types know that it may be a more attractive economic deal now to some folks here. It may do better competing with cars at the 42K price than those that easily run right past 50K which is a point that I maintain the RL was just not able to compete.

 

Ron is right. Acura STATED THEMSELVES, their goal was to sell 20,000 RLs in its FIRST YEAR of production. They WILL NOT hit that goal. On TOP of that, the car is discounted HEAVILY, its FIRST year of production. THis does not bode well for resale, image, prestige nor does it bode well for sales its 2nd, 3rd years etc.

Most cars have their best sales year newly redesigned. The RL finally got a redesign and the market simply WILL NOT pay for an expensive Acura, even if its a very competative car (RL/NSX).

There is not WRONG with the RL technically. Strong V-6, safe styling, nice interior, loaded to the gills.

But most consumers in this class do not want to spend that much money on an Acura since the old Legend GS, which topped out at 44k.

Always Late, you are dead wrong about Acura making money on the car after its delivered to dealers. Dealers are PISSED they cannot sell a brand new model and they have to offer large discounts to sell them. It cuts in everyones profit margin. NO doubt the RL MUST be making money, its still based on the Accord.

Again, no one is bashing the RL. Its placed well in most comparos. It a GIANT improvement over the old RL.

Consumers have spoken, they don't see it being worth 50k.

 

At one time I thought the new RL was clearly overpriced......I said so in posts. I still do, but have moderated my view of this somewhat. ( Yes, guys.....my views are sometimes but not always set in stone). The RL has taken its lumps in the marketplace for not having a V8, but the high-power V6 has as much HP (290-300) as the average V8 and only a little less torque (260 ft.-lbs.). It is clear that Acura, while developing this new V6 (from an existing block), chose to put the lion's share of the budget into the SH All-Wheel-Drive system instead of a big engine. ( SH meaning Super-Handling or Special Handling....I keep forgetting ). Anyhow, this is a marvelous AWD system that beats even the excellent Subaru systems....albeit for a LOT more money. It works seamlessly with the RL's vehicle stability system to transfer torque not only front-to-rear but side-to-side as well, and it can send different torque levels to EACH of the four wheels simultaneously for precision handling and steering feel.
So, while I'm still not sure this car is actually worth what it costs, the engineering....even without a V8.......justifies the $50,000 price tag to at least some extent.

 

Maybe I pick one issue to disagree with (very mildly) and one that I really have to ask you to confirm.

I don't think that Honda could not sell an expensive Acura (sorry for the double negative). I have great respect for Honda. Maybe not as much as Toyota but Honda's engine expertise can be very impressive. But I think a lot of people are disappointed that recently Honda didn't seem to know what to do with Acura and then when the RL came out, no V8, let alone pure RWD. I would be very interested in a competitive Acura and I think Honda can do it but they have chosen not to. Not sure whether you view that as a disagreement or not but I think Honda could sell a 50K plus Acura (let's forget the NSX, Honda seems to have forgotten it for a lot of years too) but it has to be competitive.

The question is did the Legend really get to 44K? I thought the Legend was a pretty pleasant car when introduced, one of the lawyers we dealt with got one. But 44K, I am shocked.

As for the market reaction, I wasn't trying to start debating the virtues of the RL. To me the price that the salesman got was impressive. Actually, if I were looking for a $42K car, that might be one of the nicer ones. But Acura and its dealers have to be very disappointed. And because I still buy cars, depreciation means something to me. Then again, if I leased one with a high residual, Acura might be kicking themselves down the street right now.

Just as an aside he said he also considered the S80. He said he could have gotten a T6 for around 8K less but liked the Acura more. I haven't really thought about it but an S80 T6 for the range of $34.5K sounds like a lot of pain for Volvo.

 

Once again, I have to wonder if you read my entire post. You seemed to have missed the part where I gave my opinion as to why I believe the RL is selling in limited numbers. Which brings me to the question of how much the new GS is being discounted. The GS is being discounted over 10% in some parts of the country and it hasn't even been on sale for half the time the RL has. So would you not agree that everything that goes with an RL being discounted, applies to a GS? People will pay for an expensive Acura just as easily as they would for a Lexus. Don't forget that $45,000 for a 2nd generation Legend when it first came out is a much higher number today. And once again, your credibility is questioned when you make a statement like the RL being based on the Accord. Do you know anything about cars? Consumers will pay for a $50,000 Acura if that is what they want. But like I said, my belief is that not everyone wants a fully loaded car with AWD. Not everyone NEEDS it. Honda is starting to figure this out and is starting to offer cars that are less fully equipped and offering stuff as options, just like the others do. If a base model RL was equipped similarly to a base model GS or Infiniti M, I'm very sure that more consumers would be attracted to it. The lower MSRP itself would be enough to attract consumers to show rooms. Most people probably don't know that the RL is fully equipped as-is. SO when they see that $50,000 price tag, they are probably thinking holly **** this car starts at $50,000, imagine what it will be with options added. I don't believe that it's a matter of consumers not willing to pay $50,000 for an Acura. Thats just ignorant to think. It has more to do with Acura's stupid value pricing.

 

I'm actually a fan of all cars that deserve respect. If I see someone spreading wrong information about ANYTHING, I WILL correct it. It's not my fault that a lot of the wrong information I catch on here is mostly involving Honda and Acura, and sometimes even Lexus.

So like I said, RL is NOT meant to compete with RWD V8 cars. Can you tell me how it compared to the AWD V6 cars in it's class though? I can tell you if you want. I already have. As for commanding a premium... The MDX has been comanding a premium for a while now. Acura still can't hold them on the lots. The TL, a mass-production to the max car was comanding premium it's first few months of release and even now in it's third MY, you will be hard pressed to get one at much below MSRP.

 

The RL is very nice, but it needs at least an optional V8 to be a flagship, plus rims that don't look like they came off a Kia.

If it could be had with a V8 and nice factory rims I think it would do a lot better.

 

I guess if I felt like starting this thread to talk about other Acura models I would have. I don't think anyone's mind is being changed about the RL here, which is to be expected. Overriding all of this is the fact that the Japanese premium models are still not established enough to command what the european premium models command. I called the Lexus dealer I bought my GS at to check on how the GS is holding up as he will talk to me over the phone and not play games. Right now you should be able to get any GS for five or six percent under sticker without having to give up a kidney. So the RL is going for 15% under list, maybe it isn't so bad but it also doesn't indicate that Acura got all the mechanicals right and only got the pricing wrong. Meanwhile the five series that is older than either of these two models would still be tough, but not impossible to get under list. But don't count on getting more than a couple of percent off. So all the drama and absolutely indisputable facts aside, the Japanese luxury brands are still not commanding the premium that the Europeans are. And of all the things that Acura could have done to spur sales of the RL, the one they chose was to put a package together for dealers that lets them go out the door for 15% under sticker. And bimmers go for for a couple of percent under sticker, just like hemi Dodges, go figure.

 

I dont want to talk about other Acura models either. But you said that no Acura has called for a premium. Your were incorrect and I had to correct you. It's been said, it's done, your over it. And keep in mind, just because your friend got it for 15% under list, doesnt mean that they are ALL going for that less. Every single RL being sold isn't going for less than invoice. The average going price is around $44-45k. If your local Lexus dealer is selling them for 6% under sticker, than that must be the AVERAGE discount they are giving out right now at your local dealer. Some dealers will discount more and some less. And I dont think anyone here is going to change their mind about the RL here either. It has superb build quality, class leading power, the most advanced AWD system in the world and technology that isn't offered by any other car in the world. I wouldnt want to change my mind about it either.

 

Sorry but if someone is paying more than 42.5K for an RL they are either particularly addled or are at the Den of 40 thieves Acura. It is a special pricing event from Acura, stopped by on the way home. That is why that dimwit salesman go the price he did. Maybe it is just Cali but that would be their biggest market anyway. My guess is the numbers I was quoted on the GS are about as good as you can do, that dealer beat everyone else at the time I bought mine so much that I got on a plane and flew to San Diego to get my car. And the notion that and Acura, even an Acura spute or NSX, is in the same premium demanding territory as the europeans, well OK, I get where you come from. End of thread for me.

 

Sorry but if someone is paying more than 42.5K for an RL they are either particularly addled or are at the Den of 40 thieves Acura. It is a special pricing event from Acura, stopped by on the way home. That is why that dimwit salesman got the price he did. Maybe it is just Cali but that would be their biggest market anyway. My guess is the numbers I was quoted on the GS are about as good as you can do, that dealer beat everyone else at the time I bought mine so much so that I got on a plane and flew to San Diego to get my car. And the notion that an Acura, even an Acura spute or NSX, is in the same premium demanding territory as the europeans, well OK, I get where you come from.

You may find this difficult to fit into your perception but if you were to read my posts you might find that I did not make the comment about no Acura model being worth a premium. This is a minor point but you seem to value your version of certitude above actual factuality. However, I wish I had said it. The closest I came was making a comment about cars going for over sticker period, which unfortunately I have had personal experience with. When the bavarians role out a new generation, they rarely go for sticker.

Let's tie this up for good. The point I was trying to make, and the only point I was trying to make, was that if you have class leading build quality, engine specs, design, colors, door handles, quantum all wheel drive, atomic stereo, and ball bearing ash trays, you don't end up with a factory promotion knocking 15% off the price. Period. One of the realities of autos, particularly luxury autos, is that if you build the best $50K car in the world, you will not get the entire market for $50K autos. It just doesn't happen. No one will ever get the entire market. And in my view, which I don't have to encourage you not to agree with, is that in my view, and maybe my view alone, Acura seems to realize that they do not make the finest $50K car in the world or even a competitive $50K car. So they quite sensibly decided to cut the price by 15% to a hopefully more marketable point. Please, anyone else other than AlwaysLate who feels I have somehow not been clear in that simple, and only, point please let me know and I will try to see if I can rephrase it. AlwaysLate I encourage you because you value the RL so much to go to your local dealer and make them take $50K for an RL. I feel confident that if you explain how much you value it, they could be convinced to sell it to you at or above sticker. Sheesh.

 

Depending on the trim and area, I wouldn't doubt it. Back in 1991 the Acura Legend LS was already hitting $40K or more here in Hawaii. By 1995 (The last year of the Legend) the LS Coupes and GS Sedans were easily selling for about $42K average. I don't specifically know of anyone myself that paid $44K, but i know of a few personally that paid anywhere between $37K and $42K. IMHO, the Legend LS Coupe and GS Sedan were definately worth the money. I've owned 3 second generation Legend's (A 91L, 93 LS Coupe 6-Speed, and 95 LS Coupe automatic for my wife) and I also now own a 93 SC400. My honest opinion is the Legend is the better car. It is not until 1998 with the higher HP motor and VVT engine that I myself would have a hard time choosing between a 95 LS Coupe and SC400. To get back on topic, after owning all those Legends and considering them the best Honda/Acura cars aside from the NSX, I would consider the 2005 RL a worthy replacement. This is the car they should have replaced the Legend with back in 1996, or at leasdt 2001. I would say low $40K is a great price, and while $49K MSRP was a little high, the market value should be around $45K. I would still have bought one at $50K, but the choice is hard because there are a lot of good cars in that price range. At $42K nothing IMHO competes with it. Not even the M35 or GS300. At $45K, I would still think it is ahead of at least the GS300 which I probably would not buy myself. I'd spend more and get the GS430.

One thing I do have to point out is it is amazing how widely prices range from the different markets around the nation. Here in my state the RL is still selling for near MSRP. I see more RLs on the road than the new 06 GS. I seem to see a new GS around 2-3 times a month. I see the RL at least once a week. The one thing in my area that the Acura RL does have an avantage over the Lexus is that they offer navigation. That for me is a big selling point in favor of the RL at this point. That is one reason why if I was ready to buy a new car now the RL probably would win over the GS. I hear next year Lexus will offer navigation to us in my state, so that could even the odds or sway it back to Lexus. I'm just talking about my area and not the nation trend.

 

The good news with what you have mentioned is that those that are considering the RL on the used vehicle market will get a very fair deal considering the depreciation factor. Works for me!