Green (MPG) vs. Green ($$$): How much green being green will cost you
ANDREW LUU
Posted Date: 9/22/05

With gas prices hovering near $3 per gallon, some drivers rushed toward hybrid vehicles in hopes of saving their rapidly thinning wallets. But many don’t realize that while hybrids may save money at the pump, they don’t necessarily save money overall.

Put another way, owning a hybrid is like owning a low-flush toilet: Each is environmentally sound, but not without sacrifice.

For hybrid vehicles, that means paying more for fuel-saving technology that may not pay off at the pump any time soon. If saving money is your main objective for considering a hybrid car, your ambition is better served by owning a non-hybrid with good fuel economy, something like a Scion xA, which gets 32 mpg city/38 mpg highway.

According to EPA annual fuel cost estimates, the shortest period in which you will recoup the added sticker price of a hybrid is about nine years for a Ford Escape Hybrid vs. an Escape XLT V6.

If you include the $2,000 tax credit—available until Dec. 31 on all newly purchased hybrids—that duration can drop to as low as two years in the Honda Civic Hybrid. The exact figures for new tax incentives authorized under the 2005 Energy Bill can be as high as $3,400, depending on the type of vehicle and its fuel economy rating.

Obviously the higher the gas price and the more you drive, the faster the financial gap closes. All these calculations are based on car sales price and gasoline use, but do not include the eventual (and high) cost of replacing a hybrid’s battery pack.

Regardless of how you crunch the numbers, a hybrid’s real return on your investment comes in the form of self-gratification: in knowing that with every mile you drive and every trip to the gas station, you’re doing your part to preserve the place we all call home. For many drivers, that’s a few grand.


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When the Hybrids become more mainstream & are in line with the rest of the model lines pricewise, then I will seriously consider purchasing one. Does not make much economic sense in the short term (say first 5 years of ownership) to buy one as things stand now. :rolleyes: :uh:

do these writers not add the performance some of the hybrids add to part of the equation of price as well as the added standard equipment

They obviously did not, which totally missed the point ,at least for the RX400h & the Highlander(i'm not too familiar with the other hybrids). The performance gain alone over the RX330 already fully justified the $3-4K premium, with the better gas mileage being a bonus.

They obviously did not, which totally missed the point ,at least for the RX400h & the Highlander(i'm not too familiar with the other hybrids). The performance gain alone over the RX330 already fully justified the $3-4K premium, with the better gas mileage being a bonus.

A 3-4K premium on a 40K vehicle is one thing (10%) but on a 20K vehicle, a 20% premium is harder to justify. And the 'performance' of a Civic hybrid is anemic. It works better on the RX400h for sure.

When the Hybrids become more mainstream & are in line with the rest of the model lines pricewise, then I will seriously consider purchasing one.

Why do you believe a hybrid vehicle price will be in line with non-hybrid models? I mean it seems to me that 2 'engines' and the inherent complexity of hybrids are always going to have a pretty decent price gap over simpler single combustion engine vehicles.

A 3-4K premium on a 40K vehicle is one thing (10%) but on a 20K vehicle, a 20% premium is harder to justify. And the 'performance' of a Civic hybrid is anemic. It works better on the RX400h for sure.

i was talking about the accord, highlander, rx400h
the civic doesn't get better performance
don't know if the escape gets better performance

in the long run, these hybrids will probably cost more to fix too... think about it.. they run on batteries... you gotta change them sometime... how much is that going to cost... also, not only do you have to worry about the combustion engine malfunctioning... but the electrical engines too. many more components to go wrong... and there is a law that says if something can go wrong it will go wrong.

I think a hybrid RX 400h and upcoming GS450h are not only hybrids but are like essentially V8 versions of the vehicles but with better gas mileage and performance than those of a normal non-hybrid. That's all I can think of.

Something that I consistently see being left out from these magazine articles is the altrusim factor. Some people that are in the financial position to take a hit (10% on a $40k vehicle) may do so in an effort to drive cars that are better for the environment. Perhaps making the money back isn't always first on their minds. I also know that many people are so in love with techno gadgets and so on that owning a hybrid would be quite cool just to have it and be part of the experience.

Also, the prius is $22,xxx which isn't a fortune by many stretches of the imagination. Maybe I'm way off base but I never see these points argued by magazines, news, or any other form of media.

James

I'm about ready to switch to a hybrid. Literally don't care if it cost me a $20,000 premium either. Why? Simple - I would rather pay more and stick it to the oil companies. I'm tired of the price gouging, and even though I am a conservative, I do care about the environment. It's time to start conserving, even if it's only to a small extent.

It's not always about the money...

drink300

in the long run, these hybrids will probably cost more to fix too... think about it.. they run on batteries... you gotta change them sometime... how much is that going to cost... also, not only do you have to worry about the combustion engine malfunctioning... but the electrical engines too. many more components to go wrong... and there is a law that says if something can go wrong it will go wrong.
Also consider that the majority of mechanics out there are familiar with the typical gas engine. The only place you can get these hybrids fixed is at the dealers. How many mechanics do any of us know that is slightly familiar with these systems?

in the long run, these hybrids will probably cost more to fix too... think about it.. they run on batteries... you gotta change them sometime... how much is that going to cost... also, not only do you have to worry about the combustion engine malfunctioning... but the electrical engines too. many more components to go wrong... and there is a law that says if something can go wrong it will go wrong.

in the long term, the prices of the equipment will go down, and if there was a big problem with the hybrids the owners from 97 priuses would be in an uproar about it

Drink you brought up an excellent point I forgot. I would rather give my money to the green pioneers like Toyota or Honda so that I can support the research to the final goal of zero emission cars than just hand out more of my money to oil companies while they fatten their pockets and do little or nothing to significantly help with consumption or pollution.

James

As nice as the theory behind hybrids are, there are still many considerations to be made when choosing the hybrid version versus a regular gas version:

1) Hybrid Price: $4k premium is relatively high, but hopefully will decrease in the next 5 years.
2) Gas Price: If gas goes up to about $4 a gallon for premium, you would still need to drive the car 15k miles a year for 5-6 years to break even with cost savings from less gas consumption.
3) Battery life: a hybrid battery is expected to last about 100k miles. If you drive 15k miles a year, you would need to change the battery in about 6-7 years, and will cost approx. another 2k to replace.
4) Maintenance: "qualified" techs that can fix any problem with hybrid engines are found at the dealerships, which can be significantly more expensive than neighborhood auto mechanics that may not know how a hybrid system works.
5) "Luxury Premium": hybrid versions of most cars have most upgrades standard. Consider the RX330 -- $38k for simple to $46 for loaded. The RX400h is fully loaded at $50. They do not offer a "simple" hybrid version that would be around $42k without the high-end options.
6) Dealer mark-up: hybrids are the fad, and most dealers will also add an extra $2k to the price.

My suggestion: don't buy a hybrid, but rather lease it. You'll pay for the depreciation, but not the maintenance costs in the long run. You should drive around 20k miles annually to really get your money's worth. If you drive less than that, get a gas engine.

If you think that "being green" is important, it's your choice/money.
If you like Toyota/Lexus compared to other cars when considering a hybrid, that's fine. But Toyota/Lexus can offer other non-hybrid cars at better value.

Good luck with your car shopping!

As nice as the theory behind hybrids are, there are still many considerations to be made when choosing the hybrid version versus a regular gas version:

1) Hybrid Price: $4k premium is relatively high, but hopefully will decrease in the next 5 years.
2) Gas Price: If gas goes up to about $4 a gallon for premium, you would still need to drive the car 15k miles a year for 5-6 years to break even with cost savings from less gas consumption.
3) Battery life: a hybrid battery is expected to last about 100k miles. If you drive 15k miles a year, you would need to change the battery in about 6-7 years, and will cost approx. another 2k to replace.
4) Maintenance: "qualified" techs that can fix any problem with hybrid engines are found at the dealerships, which can be significantly more expensive than neighborhood auto mechanics that may not know how a hybrid system works.
5) "Luxury Premium": hybrid versions of most cars have most upgrades standard. Consider the RX330 -- $38k for simple to $46 for loaded. The RX400h is fully loaded at $50. They do not offer a "simple" hybrid version that would be around $42k without the high-end options.
6) Dealer mark-up: hybrids are the fad, and most dealers will also add an extra $2k to the price.

My suggestion: don't buy a hybrid, but rather lease it. You'll pay for the depreciation, but not the maintenance costs in the long run. You should drive around 20k miles annually to really get your money's worth. If you drive less than that, get a gas engine.

If you think that "being green" is important, it's your choice/money.
If you like Toyota/Lexus compared to other cars when considering a hybrid, that's fine. But Toyota/Lexus can offer other non-hybrid cars at better value.

Good luck with your car shopping!

compared with the the rx400h
1),2) depends if you look at for just better fuel economy then it is not worth it, but if you add in the better emmisions, and better perfomance it gets, and 2-3k tax deductions does that make a difference
3) the toyota system last 180k miles, if they did charge an arm and a leg and needs to replaced in 7 years, where are the owners from 97 priuses making a huge fuss about it
4) that you can't get around to if it is battery or electric motor related
5) the better performance doesn't count? does that mean a GS430 doesn't make sense over a similar equipped GS300?
6) dealers will always find a way to mark-up hot sellers, scions have a bit of a mark-up from dealer options, are scions just a fad?

Something that I consistently see being left out from these magazine articles is the altrusim factor. Some people that are in the financial position to take a hit (10% on a $40k vehicle) may do so in an effort to drive cars that are better for the environment. Perhaps making the money back isn't always first on their minds.

ROFL. This 'altruism' is really owners stroking their own egos / sense of superiority as a year's worth of lessened environmental impact of their hybrid is offset by a cow farting in a field nearby or some decaying road kill.

I also know that many people are so in love with techno gadgets and so on that owning a hybrid would be quite cool just to have it and be part of the experience.

Yes, so that's hardly altruistic! :)

Also, the prius is $22,xxx which isn't a fortune by many stretches of the imagination. Maybe I'm way off base but I never see these points argued by magazines, news, or any other form of media.

The reality is that even if EVERYONE in the U.S. drove a hybrid it wouldn't change the environment or world oil production much.

ROFL. This 'altruism' is really owners stroking their own egos / sense of superiority as a year's worth of lessened environmental impact of their hybrid is offset by a cow farting in a field nearby or some decaying road kill.


I don't really see it as just an ego inflation exercise, it may be a false sense of security but I'd rather be part of the solution (environmental and as an investment in further research) than just doing like I've always done.


Yes, so that's hardly altruistic! :)


There can always be the best of both worlds, and with hybrids I see it as that. Altruism or whatever we choose to call it as well as the fun stuff. :)


The reality is that even if EVERYONE in the U.S. drove a hybrid it wouldn't change the environment or world oil production much.

But it can be about the statement of doing it or a personal choice. Also, like someone else said, maybe pay more up front for the cost and save at the pumps. For example, I choose organic milk because I don't like the normal milking practices and even though it's not going to stop others from buying normal milk or stop them from producing it, I feel better for my own good and just for the fact that I'm doing it.

I think we'll just have to see how it all turns out in the long run with maintenance and actual reported mileage. Technology should become less expensive and time should tell what is the best choice for people.

Another question, do you feel that zero emission cars ARE the ultimate goal and by supporting these companies you are helping that research? I see something as major as NO emissions as something that by itself can make a major difference.

James

I don't really see it as just an ego inflation exercise, it may be a false sense of security but I'd rather be part of the solution (environmental and as an investment in further research) than just doing like I've always done.

It's like peeing in the ocean. It may make you feel good but it doesn't make any difference. :D Put another way, hybrids aren't the answer.

For example, I choose organic milk because I don't like the normal milking practices and even though it's not going to stop others from buying normal milk or stop them from producing it, I feel better for my own good and just for the fact that I'm doing it.

I also choose organic milk, but also for a practical reason, it lasts twice or more as long in my refridgerator than 'normal' milk, a big benefit for me.

Another question, do you feel that zero emission cars ARE the ultimate goal and by supporting these companies you are helping that research?

A practical ZEV is the holy grail - car companies are VERY motivated to creating one. Buying a hybrid does help a little, with things like regenerative braking (an amazing technology) - it gives car companies experience in what works and what doesn't. But combining a gasoline engine with an electric one (or more than one) is hugely complicated and ultimately a frankenstein solution that isn't good long term.

I agree that hybrids aren't the final answer. I believe they're a segway to ZEVs as you call them, and that the ones who are investing in hybrids and hydrogen research are going to be the ones who see the value and are motivated to make ZEVs. For now I think we have to work with what we have and hope that our support today will pay off tomorrow. But who am I to talk, I just finished watching the Formula 1 race this morning! :egads:

James

But who am I to talk, I just finished watching the Formula 1 race this morning!

LOL - you heretic you! Those screaming gas guzzling polluting machines! Somehow I doubt there will be hybrid F1 :D

LOL - you heretic you! Those screaming gas guzzling polluting machines! Somehow I doubt there will be hybrid F1 :D

It's coming...

Toyota is creating the "Volta," which will be a racing hybrid. May not be F1, but they're expecting it to have 408 horsepower, go 0-60 in four seconds, and travel 435 miles on a 13 gallon tank!!! That's 32 miles a gallon!!!