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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 03:21 PM
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Default The 10 best ways to spend your automotive dollar.

One of the most-often questions I get asked, both on and off CL, is: " Marshall, what is the best way for me to spend my auto or truck dollar on a new vehicle? What vehicles offer the most for the money? "

While, of course, you can often get more car or truck for your money buying used or by leasing, there are pitfalls associated with both that are generally absent when buying new. In this write-up, I won't get into those pitfalls because not only do they not apply here but are ( and have been ) the subjects for other CL threads.

So....to answer that question, here are, after careful consideration, the 10 vehicles that offer what I believe to be the best value for the dollar, the most vehicle for the money, the best bargains in the marketplace, and the most sensible purchases. With one or two exceptions, these are not so-called " Image " vehicles but what I would call " common sense " vehicles, so if it is a list of exotics or mega-buck luxury cars you want, look elsewhere.



1. Hyundai Accent.

This is the car I recommend the most for those who want a well-made car, especially for basic transportation, but have little or no money to spend. The Accent, even more than its cousin the Kia Rio ( Kia is owned by Hyundai) has improved literally light-years since the mid-late 1990's. Its fit-and-finish and general quality of construction is just as good now as the Corolla's and Civic's now ( no, I am NOT kidding ).....and ( get this ) better than the more expensive Hyundai Elantra. However, to be fair, the Corolla and Civic have better and more efficient engines...but not so much as to fully justify their noticeably higher prices. Accent prices start at $10,000 or less......and even with A/C, automatic, a nice stereo, and a power package don't run much more than $12,000 for the GL version. The gauges and controls are all well-designed; the body is solid and without squeaks or rattles; the doors close with a solid " thunk " and the hardware....especially for the price....is first-rate. And...to top it off, the Hyundai / Kia 10 / 100 drivetrain waranty ahd 5 / 60 bumper-to-bumper warranties come standard....and are transferable to immediate family upon resale.
No, the car is not perfect...it has very small tires and wheels and is a little low on engine power, even with the manual transmission, but for general basic transportation, as a gift to a college student, or just a low-cost way to get GOOD new wheels...this car IMO is unbeatable.

2. Lexus ES330

Here is the true luxury car for those with little more than family-sedan money. While this car is not necessarily what you would call cheap, for the money and as a luxury car it is unbeatable. Starting in the low 30's, it has an interior, wood trim, and general fit-and-finish that puts cars almost twice its price to shame...and gives big brother LS430 a run for its considerably more expensive sum. This car gives a whisper-quiet ride, first-rate reliability, absolutely stunning wood trim inside, and a first-rate stereo, especially the Mark Levinson package. With it, of course, comes the generous Lexus warranty, high resale value, the Lexus dealership experiences, and a real treat for your hard-earned money. While there have been some customer complaints about the transmission's electronic shifting controls, those have generally been addressed on the latest models...as have the previous 3.0L V6's tendency to self-destruct if the oil was not changed regularly.

3. Ford F-150

Yes, in this case I recommend a domestic-name truck over the Toyota, Nissan, and Honda ones. Why? Simple. The Japanese trucks are all either too small, ( mid-sizers marketed as full-sizers) too underpowered, or, as in the Titan's case, built in plants of questionable quality. While the F-150 is not the most durable truck on the market ( that honor goes to the Toyota Tacoma ) , it is reasonably well-built, and is rugged enough to have satisfied literally millions of buyers. Ford sells upwards of three-quarters of a million of them every year...for good reason. F-150's are available with an almost unimaginable number of configurations, powertrains, bed and cab sizes, towing capacities, and option packages. There is an F-150 for almost any job or purpose you could think of short of being an economy car, and unlike its Chevy / GM competition, the F-150 has avoided expensive and unreliable electronic features like 4-wheel steering and the GM Hybrid engine-stop mechanism ( this GM system is not a true hybrid). In addition, for a real treat, the F-150 Lariat and King Ranch interiors have to be seen to be believed. Their interior hardware is not the best ( certainly not Lexus-grade ) but the Lariat's interior looks will not disappoint...trust me. The F-150's only real negative points, IMO, are the cheap, flimsy standard-equipment thin plastic mirrors on the base models and Ford's less-than-generous 3 / 36 bumper-to-bumper warranty.


4. Subaru Impreza

Here is a vehicle borrowed right from my CL thread of " Best Inexpensive Snow Vehicles ". Yes, there are a few other inexpensive ( under $20,000 ) AWD vehicles on the market, but for the money, nobody does AWD better than Subaru. Imprezas start between $18,000 and $19,000 and come standard with AWD, 175 HP, a generous amount of interior equipment, Subaru's flat-four low-center-of-gravity " boxer " engine, and the simple but effective and durable AWD system that the boxer engine, with its rearward-facing output shaft, allows. imprezas are available in both 4-door sedan an SportWagon You can spend more money for WRX and STi versions, but they are essentially rally-street cars desined for higher performance and, with their high-performance tires, are not as well-suited to winter conditions as the base car. All Imprezas come with a standard 5 / 60 drivetrain warranty ( important in an AWD vehicle) and 3 / 36 bumper-to-bumper. If more ground cleaance is need for deep snow or mud, an Outback Sport version of the Impreza is available for about $1500 more....but this vehicle as a stiff ride....try before buying.


5. Ford Crown Victoria.

Want a traditional American full-size, full-framed, V8 cruiser with plenty of metal around you and plenty of crash protection? While Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln have several versions of this basic platform still in production, from a value-per-dollar standpoint, the Crown Vic is easily the best value, starting in the low 20's....and Ford dealers will generally bargain, especially with high gas prices limiting sales. While this car is no Lexus, especially in the quality of its interior hardware and switchgear, it is reasonably well-built, but with a big engine up front, rear-drive, and lack of an AWD option, it is not the best car for slippery surfaces....and the power steering is ridiculously light and lacking in road feel. The warranty is also the unimpressive Ford 3 / 36. But.......here's an unexpected plus: buy the car in a dark color and with a plain-looking body and NOBODY on the road will give you any bulls***. You'll have cars all around you dropping to the speed limit and getting out of your way.


6. Subaru Forester XS

As the Forester is built on the same platform, many of the Impreza comments apply here except
that the Forester feels even more solid ( the back doors shut with a solid " thunk" and a feeling of solidity that has to be seen...and felt ) The base Forester XS is easily the best value, starting between $21,000 and $22,000, and offering more interior room, a higher roof, more ground clearance, and more off-road capability than Imprezas for little more money....and with the same good Impreza durability, warranty, and good gas mileage ( by AWD standards )
As with the Impreza, more expensive Turbo versions are available, but IMO are not worth the money....especially with the extra maintenance and having to idle the engine a while before shutting it off.



7. Kia Sedona

Here is simply the best value on the market in minivans. The 2005 and earlier versions started between $18,000 and $19,000, and while the new 2006 model is slightly more than that , it is still an excellent bargain, offering as standard equipment many of the features that families want ...such as power packages, dual A/C, captain's chairs, etc.....at a price that is little more than HALF of what, say, a loaded AWD Sienna would run. (almost $40,000 ). The former Sedonas did not offer fold-under-floor seats, but the new one does.
The Sedona exibits the same much-improved build quality as other recent Hyundais and Kias, and comes with the same 10 / 100 drivetrain and 5 / 60 bumper-to-bumper warranty as they do.


8. Subaru Outback 2.5

Here is the vehicle that combines more versatility and different capabilities for the money than anything else on the market....and was my personal choice for a new vehicle. Many of the previously noted Impreza and Forester comments apply, and in addition the Outbacks start at $24,700 and offer 8-way power drivers' bucket seats, 4-stage heated seats (the Foresters have 2-stage) , and a superb interior that, in many ways, rivals its much more expensive AWD Lexus RX330 competitor. Outbacks, IMO, combine more things in one package than any other vehicle in the American market.....snow machine, mild off-roader, economy 4-cylinder, luxury-car interior, station wagon-capability, car-like ride / steering / handling, and proven reliability. As with all Subarus, the 5 / 60 and 3 / 36 warranties are standard. And like other Subarus, more expensive Turbo and H6 models are offered but don't, IMO, give the same value as the standard Outback.


9. Chevrolet Corvette C6.

Want a world-class thundering a** kicking sports car without re-financing your house to get the money? Well, friends....here's your ride. For $40,000-$50,000 there is no better sports-car value in the world.....including the more powerful but also far more expensive Z06 with its exhorbitrant dealer mark-ups and waiting lines.
All Corvettes come with no-rust, no-dent, no-ding fiberglass body panels ( which, by the way, can be expensive to repair if they ARE damaged ). Even the base models.....the best values......steer and handle like on rails and will push you back in the seat HARD upon acceleration. They also have very high resale value and will bring you a good return on your investment if well-cared for.
Just don't expect three things.........cheap insurance, go-in-snow capability, or freedom from police monitoring.


10. Toyota Camry

Yes....the quintessial family sedan....and the base platform for the more expensive Lexus ES330 mentioned above. There are cheaper sedans out there....especially in the mid-sized family-car class.....but none give the overall engineering, refinement, reliability, and quality of construction combined that the Camry does. Arch-competitor Accord has the quality and fit-and-finish but cannot equal the Camry's refinement....the Accord is set up for a slightly different purpose and is geared more toward driving feel and handling. And if driving feel is what you want, you might as well pay a little more than the Accord and get the King of the moderately-priced drivers' sedans...the BMW 3-series.


So....there you have it. Sorry if your favorite car or truck is not on this list, ( I know I may take some flak ) but I made this list based not on popularity but on what I believe, after much inspection, to be the best values on the market and the best ways to part with your automotive dollar. For instance, I know that many of you like the Infiniti G35 and consider it a good value. I do, too....the G35 would have been number 11 on my list....dollar for dallar, it is a slightly ( not that much ) better value than the new Lexus IS, its closest competitor....and the G35X combines AWD with a larger engine than the IS does.

Last edited by mmarshall; Nov 2, 2005 at 03:58 PM.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
One of the most-often questions I get asked, both on and off CL, is: " Marshall, what is the best way for me to spend my auto or truck dollar on a new vehicle? What vehicles offer the most for the money? "

While, of course, you can often get more car or truck for your money buying used or by leasing, there are pitfalls associated with both that are generally absent when buying new. In this write-up, I won't get into those pitfalls because not only do they not apply here but are ( and have been ) the subjects for other CL threads.

So....to answer that question, here are, after careful consideration, the 10 vehicles that offer what I believe to be the best value for the dollar, the most vehicle for the money, the best bargains in the marketplace, and the most sensible purchases. With one or two exceptions, these are not so-called " Image " vehicles but what I would call " common sense " vehicles, so if it is a list of exotics or mega-buck luxury cars you want, look elsewhere.



1. Hyundai Accent.

This is the car I recommend the most for those who want a well-made car, especially for basic transportation, but have little or no money to spend. The Accent, even more than its cousin the Kia Rio ( Kia is owned by Hyundai) has improved literally light-years since the mid-late 1990's. Its fit-and-finish and general quality of construction is just as good now as the Corolla's and Civic's now ( no, I am NOT kidding ).....and ( get this ) better than the more expensive Hyundai Elantra. However, to be fair, the Corolla and Civic have better and more efficient engines...but not so much as to fully justify their noticeably higher prices. Accent prices start at $10,000 or less......and even with A/C, automatic, a nice stereo, and a power package don't run much more than $12,000 for the GL version. The gauges and controls are all well-designed; the body is solid and without squeaks or rattles; the doors close with a solid " thunk " and the hardware....especially for the price....is first-rate. And...to top it off, the Hyundai / Kia 10 / 100 drivetrain waranty ahd 5 / 60 bumper-to-bumper warranties come standard....and are transferable to immediate family upon resale.
No, the car is not perfect...it has very small tires and wheels and is a little low on engine power, even with the manual transmission, but for general basic transportation, as a gift to a college student, or just a low-cost way to get GOOD new wheels...this car IMO is unbeatable.

2. Lexus ES330

Here is the true luxury car for those with little more than family-sedan money. While this car is not necessarily what you would call cheap, for the money and as a luxury car it is unbeatable. Starting in the low 30's, it has an interior, wood trim, and general fit-and-finish that puts cars almost twice its price to shame...and gives big brother LS430 a run for its considerably more expensive sum. This car gives a whisper-quiet ride, first-rate reliability, absolutely stunning wood trim inside, and a first-rate stereo, especially the Mark Levinson package. With it, of course, comes the generous Lexus warranty, high resale value, the Lexus dealership experiences, and a real treat for your hard-earned money. While there have been some customer complaints about the transmission's electronic shifting controls, those have generally been addressed on the latest models...as have the previous 3.0L V6's tendency to self-destruct if the oil was not changed regularly.

3. Ford F-150

Yes, in this case I recommend a domestic-name truck over the Toyota, Nissan, and Honda ones. Why? Simple. The Japanese trucks are all either too small, ( mid-sizers marketed as full-sizers) too underpowered, or, as in the Titan's case, built in plants of questionable quality. While the F-150 is not the most durable truck on the market ( that honor goes to the Toyota Tacoma ) , it is reasonably well-built, and is rugged enough to have satisfied literally millions of buyers. Ford sells upwards of three-quarters of a million of them every year...for good reason. F-150's are available with an almost unimaginable number of configurations, powertrains, bed and cab sizes, towing capacities, and option packages. There is an F-150 for almost any job or purpose you could think of short of being an economy car, and unlike its Chevy / GM competition, the F-150 has avoided expensive and unreliable electronic features like 4-wheel steering and the GM Hybrid engine-stop mechanism ( this GM system is not a true hybrid). In addition, for a real treat, the F-150 Lariat and King Ranch interiors have to be seen to be believed. Their interior hardware is not the best ( certainly not Lexus-grade ) but the Lariat's interior looks will not disappoint...trust me. The F-150's only real negative points, IMO, are the cheap, flimsy standard-equipment thin plastic mirrors on the base models and Ford's less-than-generous 3 / 36 bumper-to-bumper warranty.


4. Subaru Impreza

Here is a vehicle borrowed right from my CL thread of " Best Inexpensive Snow Vehicles ". Yes, there are a few other inexpensive ( under $20,000 ) AWD vehicles on the market, but for the money, nobody does AWD better than Subaru. Imprezas start between $18,000 and $19,000 and come standard with AWD, 175 HP, a generous amount of interior equipment, Subaru's flat-four low-center-of-gravity " boxer " engine, and the simple but effective and durable AWD system that the boxer engine, with its rearward-facing output shaft, allows. imprezas are available in both 4-door sedan an SportWagon You can spend more money for WRX and STi versions, but they are essentially rally-street cars desined for higher performance and, with their high-performance tires, are not as well-suited to winter conditions as the base car. All Imprezas come with a standard 5 / 60 drivetrain warranty ( important in an AWD vehicle) and 3 / 36 bumper-to-bumper. If more ground cleaance is need for deep snow or mud, an Outback Sport version of the Impreza is available for about $1500 more....but this vehicle as a stiff ride....try before buying.


5. Ford Crown Victoria.

Want a traditional American full-size, full-framed, V8 cruiser with plenty of metal around you and plenty of crash protection? While Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln have several versions of this basic platform still in production, from a value-per-dollar standpoint, the Crown Vic is easily the best value, starting in the low 20's....and Ford dealers will generally bargain, especially with high gas prices limiting sales. While this car is no Lexus, especially in the quality of its interior hardware and switchgear, it is reasonably well-built, but with a big engine up front, rear-drive, and lack of an AWD option, it is not the best car for slippery surfaces....and the power steering is ridiculously light and lacking in road feel. The warranty is also the unimpressive Ford 3 / 36. But.......here's an unexpected plus: buy the car in a dark color and with a plain-looking body and NOBODY on the road will give you any bulls***. You'll have cars all around you dropping to the speed limit and getting out of your way.


6. Subaru Forester XS

As the Forester is built on the same platform, many of the Impreza comments apply here except
that the Forester feels even more solid ( the back doors shut with a solid " thunk" and a feeling of solidity that has to be seen...and felt ) The base Forester XS is easily the best value, starting between $21,000 and $22,000, and offering more interior room, a higher roof, more ground clearance, and more off-road capability than Imprezas for little more money....and with the same good Impreza durability, warranty, and good gas mileage ( by AWD standards )
As with the Impreza, more expensive Turbo versions are available, but IMO are not worth the money....especially with the extra maintenance and having to idle the engine a while before shutting it off.



7. Kia Sedona

Here is simply the best value on the market in minivans. The 2005 and earlier versions started between $18,000 and $19,000, and while the new 2006 model is slightly more than that , it is still an excellent bargain, offering as standard equipment many of the features that families want ...such as power packages, dual A/C, captain's chairs, etc.....at a price that is little more than HALF of what, say, a loaded AWD Sienna would run. (almost $40,000 ). The former Sedonas did not offer fold-under-floor seats, but the new one does.
The Sedona exibits the same much-improved build quality as other recent Hyundais and Kias, and comes with the same 10 / 100 drivetrain and 5 / 60 bumper-to-bumper warranty as they do.


8. Subaru Outback 2.5

Here is the vehicle that combines more versatility and different capabilities for the money than anything else on the market....and was my personal choice for a new vehicle. Many of the previously noted Impreza and Forester comments apply, and in addition the Outbacks start at $24,700 and offer 8-way power drivers' bucket seats, 4-stage heated seats (the Foresters have 2-stage) , and a superb interior that, in many ways, rivals its much more expensive AWD Lexus RX330 competitor. Outbacks, IMO, combine more things in one package than any other vehicle in the American market.....snow machine, mild off-roader, economy 4-cylinder, luxury-car interior, station wagon-capability, car-like ride / steering / handling, and proven reliability. As with all Subarus, the 5 / 60 and 3 / 36 warranties are standard. And like other Subarus, more expensive Turbo and H6 models are offered but don't, IMO, give the same value as the standard Outback.


9. Chevrolet Corvette C6.

Want a world-class thundering a** kicking sports car without re-financing your house to get the money? Well, friends....here's your ride. For $40,000-$50,000 there is no better sports-car value in the world.....including the more powerful but also far more expensive Z06 with its exhorbitrant dealer mark-ups and waiting lines.
All Corvettes come with no-rust, no-dent, no-ding fiberglass body panels ( which, by the way, can be expensive to repair if they ARE damaged ). Even the base models.....the best values......steer and handle like on rails and will push you back in the seat HARD upon acceleration. They also have very high resale value and will bring you a good return on your investment if well-cared for.
Just don't expect three things.........cheap insurance, go-in-snow capability, or freedom from police monitoring.


10. Toyota Camry

Yes....the quintessial family sedan....and the base platform for the more expensive Lexus ES330 mentioned above. There are cheaper sedans out there....especially in the mid-sized family-car class.....but none give the overall engineering, refinement, reliability, and quality of construction combined that the Camry does. Arch-competitor Accord has the quality and fit-and-finish but cannot equal the Camry's refinement....the Accord is set up for a slightly different purpose and is geared more toward driving feel and handling. And if driving feel is what you want, you might as well pay a little more than the Accord and get the King of the moderately-priced drivers' sedans...the BMW 3-series.


So....there you have it. Sorry if your favorite car or truck is not on this list, ( I know I may take some flak ) but I made this list based not on popularity but on what I believe, after much inspection, to be the best values on the market and the best ways to part with your automotive dollar. For instance, I know that many of you like the Infiniti G35 and consider it a good value. I do, too....the G35 would have been number 11 on my list....dollar for dallar, it is a slightly ( not that much ) better value than the new Lexus IS, its closest competitor....and the G35X combines AWD with a larger engine than the IS does.
#10 gotta go, replace it with the Accord.
#7 gotta go, minivan with solid rear axle? WTF???
#2 ES300.... meh... If ES300 appels to you, then so does the Avalon, and the Avalon is an even better value.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Och
#10 gotta go, replace it with the Accord.
#7 gotta go, minivan with solid rear axle? WTF???
#2 ES300.... meh... If ES300 appels to you, then so does the Avalon, and the Avalon is an even better value.

I don't think you even read what he said.

Replace Camry with Accord? Read why it's there.
ES330 is there because there is no better near-luxury (actually, full luxury with near luxury price) car on the market.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Och
#10 gotta go, replace it with the Accord.
#7 gotta go, minivan with solid rear axle? WTF???
#2 ES300.... meh... If ES300 appels to you, then so does the Avalon, and the Avalon is an even better value.
Camry / Accord was a tough choice, but Camry won for two main reasons....it excels in more different areas than the Accord does, and the Accord is harder to bargain on...neither Honda nor its dealerships believe in incentives or discounts....and on this list, VALUE is the name of the game.

The Sedona is on the list, once again, because of value........while, of course, it does not have as many features as, say, a high-line Town and Country or Sienna, it gives many families what they basically need......at half the price and with twice the warranty.

The new Avalon, granted, is a nice car with a well-engineered drivetrain ( I did a write-up on one last March). But its price differential with the ES330 is not that great, and the ES offers not only a better warranty but an interior that blows the Avalon's away....once you open the doors there is no contest.

Last edited by mmarshall; Nov 2, 2005 at 05:17 PM.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 05:14 PM
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That's a good list; exactly what I would expect from an automotive expert with an open-minded view to all manufacturers. Thanks for sharing!

The one thing that surprises me is the lack of any Acuras on that list. The TSX, TL, and RL in particular seem like they are SCREAMING to be on any list of the "best value for the dollar" cars. Just out of curiousity, why didn't you include any?
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceman
That's a good list; exactly what I would expect from an automotive expert with an open-minded view to all manufacturers. Thanks for sharing!

The one thing that surprises me is the lack of any Acuras on that list. The TSX, TL, and RL in particular seem like they are SCREAMING to be on any list of the "best value for the dollar" cars. Just out of curiousity, why didn't you include any?
Why no Acuras? Several reasons. First, like Honda ( and perhaps because it is a Honda division ) Acura is stingy with incentives and discounts. Their attitude, like Honda's is that generally, if you want an Acura you're going to pay for one. Second, though Acuras on average cost more than Hondas, there doesn't really ( IMO ) seem to be that much difference between them either in interiors or performance. Lexus, on the other hand, generally differentiates its vehicles more from Toyota not only in price but in refinement and engineering as well. Third, the Acura RSX does not impress me at all...though well-built, IMO it is cheap-looking and cheap-feeling. Fourth, The TSX, while not cheap-looking and feeling like the RSX, IMO is too small for the price they charge...it does not give you enough car for the money, especially with the standard 4-cylinder. Fifth, the RL, which is quite impressive both in interior trim and in the sophistication of its new SH AWD system, nevertheless IMO is overpriced ( $50,000 )and makes do with a high-output V6 where it should have used a compact V8 designed for sideways-mount like the Cadillac Northstar. And..it is interesting that much of the public agrees.....Acura is being forced into incentives on this car ( in opposition to long-standing company policy ) just to move them. If the incentives get good enough, the car just might be a good value. As it stands now, IMO it is not. The MDX......again......is just a Honda Pilot with a few more features inside and slightly less boxy styling. The NSX, despite its all-aluminum construction and razor-sharp handling, IMO is not worth anywhere near what a new one costs....and the aluminum body has to be repaired and opainted in special facilities.
Last...the TL you mention. It is a nice car but, again, IMO, to much like the Accord to justify its price. And some of them have had transmission problems.

Last edited by mmarshall; Nov 2, 2005 at 05:40 PM.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
For instance, I know that many of you like the Infiniti G35 and consider it a good value. I do, too....the G35 would have been number 11 on my list....dollar for dallar, it is a slightly ( not that much ) better value than the new Lexus IS, its closest competitor....and the G35X combines AWD with a larger engine than the IS does.


One question since you seem to be familar with the segment - are there any compeitors to the Accent aside from the civic and corolla that are worth looking at in your opinion? We're buying my sister a car for Christmas and the Accent is on the short list but I felt even as basic transportation it was a little underpowered, but aside from the Rio/Civic/Corolla I don't really know where else to look.

Oh one more question - did you consider only incentives on pricing or msrp or a trend towards paying near invoice? The reason I ask is that the RL seems to be going for anywhere from 40-44k in most states now, which might impact it's "bang for the buck" rating. I wasn't a big fan of it @50k but @40k it's a lot more interesting.

Edit - I keep thinking things up. What do you think of the Legacy 2.5? I noticed a couple Subaru's on the list and that one seems to me to be a really good bargain, especially the GT with an msrp of under 30k,, a *****in' engine, and similar "feel" to the forester. .

Last edited by picus; Nov 2, 2005 at 06:35 PM.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Och
#2 ES300.... meh... If ES300 appels to you, then so does the Avalon, and the Avalon is an even better value.
Och,

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that part. Although comparable in some features, the avalon overall is different than the ES 330. Look at it this way, the Lexus ES 330 feels much better than the avalon when you take it out for a spin. I've driven both when I went car shopping. The ES 330 is more relaxing and comfortable, plus the price range is perfect and I get a vehicle with a world famous brand name ("Lexus").
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:41 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by MarkW2005
Och,

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that part. Although comparable in some features, the avalon overall is different than the ES 330. Look at it this way, the Lexus ES 330 feels much better than the avalon when you take it out for a spin. I've driven both when I went car shopping. The ES 330 is more relaxing and comfortable, plus the price range is perfect and I get a vehicle with a world famous brand name ("Lexus").
But we are talking value here, aren't we? I for instance think Avalon is a better value than ES330, although ES300 is a better car on many points, but still not enough to be as bang for the buck as the Avalon.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:49 PM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by picus


One question since you seem to be familar with the segment - are there any compeitors to the Accent aside from the civic and corolla that are worth looking at in your opinion? We're buying my sister a car for Christmas and the Accent is on the short list but I felt even as basic transportation it was a little underpowered, but aside from the Rio/Civic/Corolla I don't really know where else to look.

Oh one more question - did you consider only incentives on pricing or msrp or a trend towards paying near invoice? The reason I ask is that the RL seems to be going for anywhere from 40-44k in most states now, which might impact it's "bang for the buck" rating. I wasn't a big fan of it @50k but @40k it's a lot more interesting.
See my answer to Iceman above concerning Acuras.....and the RL.

Yes, I noted in my summary that one of the Accent's few weaknesses was a low-powered and somewhat inefficient engine for its size.
If your sister can tolerate its quirky dash with the center-mount gauges, look at the Scion xA. As base transportation, it is not quite the value that the Accent is....it costs more, is roughly the same size, and doesn't have anywhere as near as good a warranty. But.....being a Toyota product, it is well-built, reliable, and though it will cost more than an Accent ($13,000-$14,000) its no-haggle, no-markup and no-discount Saturn-type pricing makes buying one an easy, simple, no-hassle affair...though you can still bargain on trade-in and finanacing, if applicable.
In addition, the xA, unlike the Accent, has a squared-off hatchback rear end with a more useful shape for hauling things. Its engine has about the same torque as the Accent's but somehow feels a little stronger...but is still is no drag-racer.

The Chevrolet Aveo ( a Korean Daewoo Lanos built for Chevrolet ) sells in the Accent's price range ( 10-13K ) but is a little more crude inside, a little tinnier-feeling in the body and hardware, and has a noisy engine. It comes in both 4-door sedan and hatchback body styles.....and some wild colors like bright yellow and burnt orange. Its warranty, while not as good as Hyundai / Kia, is 5 / 60 drivetrain and 3 /36 bumper-to-bumper......MUCH better than other GM cars.


As to the question of incentives, I took them where applicable. One of the reasons I did not list any Hondas or Acuras is their stinginess on incentives and the unwillingness of their dealerships to bargain. The Accent is an especially good value when they are taken into account.
GM, on the other hand, is known for incentives....and they are also the ones that pioneered employee pricing for the public. But most of GM's products, even in spite of this, are not particularly good values ( the C6 Corvette is an exception ) simply due to their second-rate design and assembly....though some of the very latest ones are showing some improvement.

Last edited by mmarshall; Nov 2, 2005 at 06:55 PM.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Why no Acuras? Several reasons. First, like Honda ( and perhaps because it is a Honda division ) Acura is stingy with incentives and discounts. Their attitude, like Honda's is that generally, if you want an Acura you're going to pay for one. Second, though Acuras on average cost more than Hondas, there doesn't really ( IMO ) seem to be that much difference between them either in interiors or performance. Lexus, on the other hand, generally differentiates its vehicles more from Toyota not only in price but in refinement and engineering as well. Third, the Acura RSX does not impress me at all...though well-built, IMO it is cheap-looking and cheap-feeling. Fourth, The TSX, while not cheap-looking and feeling like the RSX, IMO is too small for the price they charge...it does not give you enough car for the money, especially with the standard 4-cylinder. Fifth, the RL, which is quite impressive both in interior trim and in the sophistication of its new SH AWD system, nevertheless IMO is overpriced ( $50,000 )and makes do with a high-output V6 where it should have used a compact V8 designed for sideways-mount like the Cadillac Northstar. And..it is interesting that much of the public agrees.....Acura is being forced into incentives on this car ( in opposition to long-standing company policy ) just to move them. If the incentives get good enough, the car just might be a good value. As it stands now, IMO it is not. The MDX......again......is just a Honda Pilot with a few more features inside and slightly less boxy styling. The NSX, despite its all-aluminum construction and razor-sharp handling, IMO is not worth anywhere near what a new one costs....and the aluminum body has to be repaired and opainted in special facilities.
Last...the TL you mention. It is a nice car but, again, IMO, to much like the Accord to justify its price. And some of them have had transmission problems.
Agree on the Acura's for the most part, except the TL. If you were to put a great value sporsts sedan on your list (why didn't you by the way?), I think it should be a close call between TL and G35. They both blow away pretty much everything in the price range, and the TL has an advantage over G35 with it's awesome interior, but then G35 is RWD, and can be had with AWD, and is slightly faster.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Och
#10 gotta go, replace it with the Accord.
I agree on that one. The Camry is as interesting as watching grass grow. The Accord is just more pleasurable to drive.

#7 gotta go, minivan with solid rear axle? WTF???
Disagree. A minivan is not a sports car the the Kia is a great value minivan.

#2 ES300.... meh... If ES300 appels to you, then so does the Avalon, and the Avalon is an even better value.
Disagree again. As mmarshall points out, the ES330 (not ES300) interior is VASTLY superior to the very bland and cheaper Avalon interior. Avalon's a fine car and I was quite interested in it as a comfy sedan but when I saw the interior I concluded it was too much 'Buick'-like.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
See my answer to Iceman above concerning Acuras.....and the RL.
Ok gotchya - I agree on the V8.

Good call on the Scion - when I moved to Canada they weren't available for sale here but I think they have just recently been made available. I will have to look into them, I think she would like the xA.

I appreciate the thorough response. I'm still interested to hear your thoughts on the Legacy, but that can wait.
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:55 PM
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I will agree however that this is a very good list... I personally wouln't buy a single car on it though

Now, how about making a 10 wost value list (but lets not inlude rolls royces, etc)
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Old Nov 2, 2005 | 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by picus
Ok gotchya - I agree on the V8.

Good call on the Scion - when I moved to Canada they weren't available for sale here but I think they have just recently been made available. I will have to look into them, I think she would like the xA.

I appreciate the thorough response. I'm still interested to hear your thoughts on the Legacy, but that can wait.
Another thing about Acuras... how about comparing M35x and 3.5 RL awd?
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