http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/12/14/175199.html

I think Nissan said that it will introduce Infiniti in Japan around the same time.

Do they even sell the TL or the MDX in Japan right now? What are they called?

I know that the RL is the Legend. The TSX is the Accord, and the Accord is the Inspire.

I think the TL is the Inspire

the old TL was the previous gen Inspire

but the US market Accord (current)
is the current JDM inspire ( i never thought i'd use JDM in a sentence...)

I saw this coming after Lexus was introduced in Japan

Good for them, but I think they shouldn't be making CSX & EL, or have TSX as Acura's anymore then . . . & how about V8/V10 models other than a NSX ?

I saw this coming after Lexus was introduced in Japan

:agree: :agreed:

Bingo!

does this mean that they'll stop selling some hondas over in japan and strictly sell them as acuras now?

Good for them, but I think they shouldn't be making CSX & EL, or have TSX as Acura's anymore then . . . & how about V8/V10 models other than a NSX ?
agree, it's a good thing they do it, especially with lexus ahead of them by a good 2 yrs.

and they should just leave those 4 bangers back for honda and get some v8+ going for acura. otherwise they are not going to distinguish themselves from honda...

I wonder if they will match the way Lexus has gone all-out on the dealership experience in Japan. When visiting my friends over there it became very clear that Honda is significantly lower on the prestige scale than Toyota, and the exact same thing will happen with Lexus/Acura unless Honda goes all out.

The real question here is why this move was so long in coming. Acura was created in 1985-86, and Lexus in 89-90, and just NOW ( and in 2008) they are coming to Japan? :egads:

IMO, instead of explaing the details of their move now, Acura and Lexus reps need to come up with some good answers why this was not done LONG ago.....and I don't mean BS or smoke-and-mirror answers.

( Sorry, folks, if this sounds like I'm venting.......I sometimes have a tendency to do that. :wild: I just get p***ed when auto companies do dumb things )

The real question here is why this move was so long in coming. Acura was created in 1985-86, and Lexus in 89-90, and just NOW ( and in 2008) they are coming to Japan? :egads:

IMO, instead of explaing the details of their move now, Acura and Lexus reps need to come up with some good answers why this was not done LONG ago.....and I don't mean BS or smoke-and-mirror answers.

( Sorry, folks, if this sounds like I'm venting.......I sometimes have a tendency to do that. :wild: I just get p***ed when auto companies do dumb things )
imho it's about how they leverage off the status in other countries to make people in japan to believe.

think about this (using toyota/lexus). soarer, aristo, celsior, windom, harrier, they were all under toyota, so people KNOW it's a toyota. if suddenly one day toyota put up couple of lexus dealeships and these suddenly goes into sc430, gs430, ls430, es330, rx330, it's hard for people to adjust. i don' tknow about the price but i assume these cars might now be sold a bit higher than before under the lexus name (consider how much better looking those dealerships are, it's money), how would people judge it?

and you can't expect toyota to build up the lexus name in japan from ground zero, too much money to lose.

so what do they do? they continued to build the lexus name here in the US (mainly). now lexus is a spell out name, people know it's luxury, and with the recent yrs vip bloom in japan, toyota see the chance. they see that people in japan all know about lexus already and it means luxury, and also the fact that a lot of people they are trying to make their cars into a lexus.

so now they just comfortably roll out the lexus name in japan, and without much work, people accept the name, people know what it is, and people are willing to pay.

same for honda/acura i think. though i think its very obvious that acura couldn't build up the name fast enough as lexus (well, after the first legend, the acura name got slumped quite a bit)

I agree with much of what you say, Henry, but history shows that Acura and Lexus were both successful here in the U.S. from Day One....although Acura, like Infiniti, was later somewhat overshadowed in the 1990's by Lexus.
Still, the point remains that you cannot be successful in any country if you don't actually get in and introduce your products. As the old saying goes....you have to walk before you run, and before you can walk you have to get up off your a**.

Anyhow, that's water under the dam now. No matter what I think ( and I am only one person ) at least Honda has made a commitment to do so that with the Acura nameplate, so I guess they deserve some credit....perhaps I simply vented too much in my first post.

I really think it comes down to a cultural difference between Japan and America, and the "westernization" of some aspects of Japanese culture. The Japanese are EXTREMELY brand conscious and love to show off logos, but only of foreign companies. Wearing jeans with a Levi's patch is considered very fashionable, for example. Lexus and Acura are associated with America, and my guess is that Toyota and Honda have decided the Japanese consumer will be impressed enough with the label to pay the premium. The other brilliant thing Toyota is doing is elevating the dealer experience to a whole new level, commensurate with how good they say the cars are (and how good we owners believe they are, but the typical Japanese consumer doesn't know that yet).

imho it's about how they leverage off the status in other countries to make people in japan to believe.

think about this (using toyota/lexus). soarer, aristo, celsior, windom, harrier, they were all under toyota, so people KNOW it's a toyota. if suddenly one day toyota put up couple of lexus dealeships and these suddenly goes into sc430, gs430, ls430, es330, rx330, it's hard for people to adjust. i don' tknow about the price but i assume these cars might now be sold a bit higher than before under the lexus name (consider how much better looking those dealerships are, it's money), how would people judge it?

and you can't expect toyota to build up the lexus name in japan from ground zero, too much money to lose.

so what do they do? they continued to build the lexus name here in the US (mainly). now lexus is a spell out name, people know it's luxury, and with the recent yrs vip bloom in japan, toyota see the chance. they see that people in japan all know about lexus already and it means luxury, and also the fact that a lot of people they are trying to make their cars into a lexus.

so now they just comfortably roll out the lexus name in japan, and without much work, people accept the name, people know what it is, and people are willing to pay.

same for honda/acura i think. though i think its very obvious that acura couldn't build up the name fast enough as lexus (well, after the first legend, the acura name got slumped quite a bit)

Great post Henry. One thing I am curious about is did they really see how successful Lexus would become? I mean, I am sure they planned very well to make it profitable and excel but at this level? We are talking about now 6 years a row #1 in sales here in the USA and finally sales expanding in Europe.

It seems they didn't feel that way in the early 90s, thus, Lexus didn't roll out in Japan b/c they felt it would not compete well at home. But as you stated, Lexus has PROVEN it is a serious contender.

As for Acura, I don't have enough confidence in their management to understand this move, other than "Since they did it, we have to do it"

Thing is they DON'T have the products. As ICEMAN stated, Japan is VERY BRAND conscious and while Lexus offers German competiton on most levels, Acura still is a niche brand (FWD, I-4/V-6, etc) offering mostly entry level and sub entry level cars.

It seems Lexus waited this long, b/c they have some SERIOUS hardware. New most powerful V-6s, new V-8s coming, AWD, RWD, top luxury SUVs and now hybrids and a new design language.

To me its apples to oranges at this point.

excellent point there as well mike. personally, i think toyota was NOT prepared about what's coming in the lexus name when they first debut it in early 90s. they knew they could build a car better than the mb and bimmer, that i am sure. however i am sure they knew about the brand name effect too, and they probably wasn't that sure how they are going to tackle it and able to compete.

howeve by end of 90s, i think toyota was pretty confident in lexus already, and they started to see the grow where lexus can be a separate entity instead of "under toyota". and with that coming, putting lexus as a separate brand in japan started to make sense

and yes, i still think honda putting up acura in japan could be a good thing, but they have a lot more work to do than toyota/lexus. their foundation is poor at best, and with their current acura lineup it's far from strong (keep in mind they still have no future answer on the nsx, and putting up the RL as flagship is like lexus without the LS but instead GS). that's a far stretch. they need to have a big game plan and a lot of stuff up their sleeves.

for now, they shouldn't expect the same outcome as lexus

It wasn't so much the fact that Acura didn't do well. Acura did in fact do well here when it was introduced in 1986. Except for the ongoing popularity of the Integra with the tuner crowd, Acura, like Infiniti, was simply overshadowed by Lexus after 1990. The Lexus ES250 was not popular at all, but the LS400 was a great car and became an instant hit, overshadowing both the Q45, which sold in far fewer numbers, and the Acura Legend with its reliable but smaller V6. And neither the Legend or Q45 could equal the LS400's ride. So Acura actually did well for a time, but Lexus simply did better and overshadowed them.

Actually, the Legend was the best selling luxury car in the US during the early 90s. So it wasn't exactly overshadowed by the LS. They were in different segments anyway, so it's hard to compare.

I think what marshall means is that the Legend is only a V6 & not a truly premium model, whereas Lexus LS is a V8. Plus the fact that Lexus revolutionize how luxury cars are marketed - dealership experience & customer service etc.
The Acura TL is the best selling luxury sedan last year too, but is overshadowed by Lexus as a brand overall.

I think what marshall means is that the Legend is only a V6 & not a truly premium model, whereas Lexus LS is a V8. Plus the fact that Lexus revolutionize how luxury cars are marketed - dealership experience & customer service etc.
The Acura TL is the best selling luxury sedan last year too, but is overshadowed by Lexus as a brand overall.
yup well said. though putting TL in the luxury sedan is kinda debatable, at least to me. but well that's beyond the scope. being best selling doesn't mean the whole brand name is there, lexus is aiming brand and i think acura needs to do that too, since it needs to depart from -- honda

I think that before acura and honda do ANYTHING, they should make a V8 first! It's 2005 and they have the balls to go against lexus when they don't have a car with 8 cylinders?? :uh:

Actually, the Legend was the best selling luxury car in the US during the early 90s. So it wasn't exactly overshadowed by the LS. They were in different segments anyway, so it's hard to compare.
I absolutely love the Legend and have all the respect in the world for it.

The LS though, TOTALLY reshaped the perceptions of what a luxury car is. It was like "the shot heard round the world". Every magazine around the world raved about it. It was considered the finest car, period.

The Legend is not a fair comparison, its a V-6 with FWD. It was an EXCELLENT car in its class but did not gather the response or praise like the LS did.

Imagine IF the Legend had RWD and a V-8. Then, I truly think it would have shaken the world like the LS did.

To this day, Acura hasn't changed anything in the public's eyes, EXCEPT, we are a "value" company. Which is a total contridiction to what luxury is. This "value" approach (loaded cars cheaper than the competiton) has done wonders for them as of late, with sales never better. :thumbup:

Yes...between Amethy, Henry, and 1SICK...I think you guys have got it. I was saying that the Legend, while a great car and a good seller, ( It was extremely well-built and reliable except for a few problems here and there with the manual-transmission version ) clearly was not in the same class as the original LS400 in ride quality, noise, luxury features, power and torque....a number of different areas. It was essentially a stretched and reengineered Accord FWD V6 platform competing against one of the finest luxury cars on the planet....a classic case of apples and oranges.

To this day, Acura hasn't changed anything in the public's eyes, EXCEPT, we are a "value" company. Which is a total contridiction to what luxury is. This "value" approach (loaded cars cheaper than the competiton) has done wonders for them as of late, with sales never better. :thumbup:

I think that's oversimplistic for two reasons. One is that Acura DID change the public's perception of Japanese cars--it wasn't Lexus that first broke that ground. The Legend and the NSX vaulted the Japanese into ranks conventional wisdom thought they could never achieve. While the products since then have underwhelmed in many cases, and Lexus clearly took the ball and ran with it, it's not fair to say Acura didn't have an impact.

The other reason is that Lexus, like Acura, is in the "value" game. Price out any Lexus product with a comparably-equipped German counterpart. It will be thousands of dollars cheaper. And the fans of the German marques will tell you that the Lexus is thousands of dollars less impressive, either in performance (coming from a BMW fan) or luxury and prestige (coming from a MB fan). Lexus specializes in offering a premium experience that is great in all respects, and at a price less than you would pay for similar products from the competition. Acura has simply cut more corners and aimed a little more downscale in their application of the same basic approach.

I think that's oversimplistic for two reasons. One is that Acura DID change the public's perception of Japanese cars--it wasn't Lexus that first broke that ground. The Legend and the NSX vaulted the Japanese into ranks conventional wisdom thought they could never achieve. While the products since then have underwhelmed in many cases, and Lexus clearly took the ball and ran with it, it's not fair to say Acura didn't have an impact.

The other reason is that Lexus, like Acura, is in the "value" game. Price out any Lexus product with a comparably-equipped German counterpart. It will be thousands of dollars cheaper. And the fans of the German marques will tell you that the Lexus is thousands of dollars less impressive, either in performance (coming from a BMW fan) or luxury and prestige (coming from a MB fan). Lexus specializes in offering a premium experience that is great in all respects, and at a price less than you would pay for similar products from the competition. Acura has simply cut more corners and aimed a little more downscale in their application of the same basic approach.

Great point, Acura did show people WOULD indeed buy a Japanese luxury branded car, no matter what it was called. That had to be encouraging to Lexus when it was under development under the F1 program.

The NSX is an incredible acomplishment, all aluminium (a first) top reliablity and performance to match Ferrais and Porsches of the time. However, sales died quickly and it just never caught on with the public. Odd how some cars just don't have mojo to the public, no matter how fabulous. IMO, that is needed minimal change all these years, shows how ADVANCED it was in 1990.

And it kind of pisses me off (as I love both the NSX and Porsche) how the 911 gets its balls licked by the press for offering the SAME design for over 30 years with constant improvements, and the NSX does the SAME thing, yet the NSX is old and outdated and slow to car editors.

At least the Honda NSX, especially in R form is very much revered in Europe.

A HUGE significant difference in Lexus value and Acura value is Acura offers a lesser product for less, but its loaded while Lexus offers an equivilent product for less.

As in, Acura has the options, but not the hardware. Whereas Lexus has both.

For example.
Acura plays the I-4 and V-6 game in FWD form ONLY with the TSX and TL to battle the Germans.
Even with the IS 300, Lexus offered RWD and a I-6, JUST LIKE the Germans but cheaper. Now Lexus outpowers the Germans with more luxury for less money with the IS 250 and 350 and now offers AWD.

With Acura, you always have a niche or it lacks a huge componant. The TSX and TL are GREAT sellers and have hit their marks, but until they offer FWD only and are both Accord based.

With the GS, you get a ground up redesign and RWD, AWD and V-6 and V-8s and hybrids soon. Same tech and hardware as the Germans for less
The RL, you finally get AWD (still FWD biased) with no optional V-8. So outside of AWD, V-6 cars, they have no answer for the Germans.

The RX and MDX are very evenly matched. Both are based off other cars, both offer V-6s, both are great sellers. Lexus has now elevated with the 400h though. Acuras MDX forumla is a huge success.

They have absolutely no answer for the LX, GX, SC, LS, which battles the Germans in each category toe for toe.

Lexus has no answer for the NSX.

I think Acura sales maybe 3rd or 4th this year after BMW or Caddy, a huge accomplishment, though their cars are much cheaper than all the luxury competition.

I have to agree with Iceman that come what may, it will forever be a fact of automotive history that Honda was the first Japanese manufacturer to introduce an upmarket brand and upmarket vehicles, Acura, to the U.S. market, and that this new brand was in fact successful until Lexus...for reasons which we have already discusssed.......came along 4-5 years later and ended up overshadowing it. Indeed it was Acura that first convinced the American public to shell out extra money for the upmarket Japanese car.....and the public, given the good luck they had already had with low-priced Japanese products like Civics and Corollas, were only happy to do so.....and get the best of both worlds.
However, not all attempts by Japanese companies to follow in Acura's footsteps were successful. Mazda attempted to launch an upscale Amati division in the American market......only to have Ford ax it on the excuse it was too costly. In fact the innovative Mazda Millenia semi-luxury car and sports sedan with the Miller-cycle V6, was initially to have been the first Amati, but, of course then got the Mazda name when Amati was cancelled. Mitsubishi had toyed with the idea of an upscale U.S. division, too....but has so many other well-publicized problems that that issue has had to take a back seat for now.

Honda has one big problem - they simply dont listen to the public, they put too much into what they believe and not what their customers want. This is why Toyota/Lexus is where they are today, and why Honda has to battle to keep market share.

Back in 80's and even 90's, it was Honda that was innovating the industry and Toyota that was too conservative in their business decisions. I remember reading an article about Toyota executives not wanting to approve large pickup for american market, they simply didnt not know why would anyone want anything as large, let alone give it an V8 option. US executives invited them to some texas football game, to show them what people there are driving and result was that tundra v8 was approved.

Honda on the other hand, doesnt see the need for V8, depite thousands upon thousands of customers and dealers begging for it. It didnt want to build an pickup, and finally did one minivan that looks the part. It also thought that IMA is all that customer needs, letting HSD eat its sales away. Acura is still FWD based brand, with less of brand image than Lexus or Infiniti and much less profits.

This year they will spend half a billion in F1, following Toyota (and remember, it is Honda that had decades of F1 heritage). Hopefully since F1 is using V8's now, it will help them reach decision that they need an V8 engine.

To me, it looks as if they are struggling to decide between what their customers want and what their managment thinks customers want. Hopefully new Civic is an turning point (although, where is the multilink!!!), and F1 involment shows commitment for V8 and rwd...

Acura is an good brand, with good cars, RWD sport sedan with V8 will make it better.

I absolutely love the Legend and have all the respect in the world for it.

The LS though, TOTALLY reshaped the perceptions of what a luxury car is. It was like "the shot heard round the world". Every magazine around the world raved about it. It was considered the finest car, period.

The Legend is not a fair comparison, its a V-6 with FWD. It was an EXCELLENT car in its class but did not gather the response or praise like the LS did.

Imagine IF the Legend had RWD and a V-8. Then, I truly think it would have shaken the world like the LS did.

:

I agree. The Acura Legend over achieved, but it also had a great design and enineering execution. Two totally different cars though. The LS is pure and simple luxury boat. The Legend was probably much closer to what we like to call sports sedans/coupes back in its time. It was always offered with a 5-Speed manual, or 6-Speed manual in the later years along with the optional automatic. the 200, then 230 HP engines were very good and strong for their time. My personal experience is the Legend's V6 is a great match and moves the car better than the 1UZFE V8 in my SC400. Anyway, Acura dropped the ball in 1996 when it came out with the 3rd generation RL and new TL to replace the Vigor. If 2005 RL came out closer to 1999, Acura would be fairing much better right now. Only now are they catching back up after falling behind.

I don't believe it was the engineerings and designers at Honda/Acura though. I believe it was all the bean counters. There have been various opportunities on another forum to hear from barious Honda engineers like those who designed the NSX. Its good to hear what they want to do, but obviously back then it wasn't up to them. Honda dropped out of many racing series back in the early 90s as well. That is when they started to fall off. Now it seems like they are letting the engineers build cars rather than the guys up stairs.

The NSX is an incredible acomplishment, all aluminium (a first) top reliablity and performance to match Ferrais and Porsches of the time. However, sales died quickly and it just never caught on with the public. Odd how some cars just don't have mojo to the public, no matter how fabulous. IMO, that is needed minimal change all these years, shows how ADVANCED it was in 1990.

And it kind of pisses me off (as I love both the NSX and Porsche) how the 911 gets its balls licked by the press for offering the SAME design for over 30 years with constant improvements, and the NSX does the SAME thing, yet the NSX is old and outdated and slow to car editors.

At least the Honda NSX, especially in R form is very much revered in Europe.

.


I agree. unexpectedly I had to put the NSX into a car show this weekend. I haven't driven it for a while, and boy once you get in and start driving you remember what is all about. I haven't done much to the engine itself and even with the 270HP it is more than enough for me. However, if you need more power which we all could use, my friend has a Factor X 500+ HP NSX :thumbup: But yes, power wise the NSX may have fallen behind the times, but the drive is still IMHO one of the bset ever under $100K and eve over $100K in many cases. Honda NSX's came with optional navigation systems that were not offered in the US. That was a dumb move because it kind of updates the interior with a nice LCD navigation screen, and I'm sure many in the US would have loved navigation sinve many have put in aftermarket systems anyway. One more thing. The stock NSX stereo sucks :p

Honda has one big problem - they simply dont listen to the public, they put too much into what they believe and not what their customers want.



This may or may not be true. Honda as far as I personally know is the only major company to fly in some of their design engineers to peoples personal hoomes in the US, sit down with them over nice dinner, and ask for their specific feedback on the design, and what they wanted to see in the next Honda/Acura car. Now, obviously not everything the owners want will be included in the new designs, but what other company has done that? Honda also sends engineers and technicians to special Honda/Acura club events and holds seminars and Q&A sessions.