I am going to make this brief :D

1. Do you know pretty much after a brand new, redesigned model is out, the company starts working on updating and a new model immediately! For instance, the IS just came out a couple months ago, well, Lexus is already working on freshning it, as well as the 3IS.

2. Maybe someone can help with the math equation but here is the SICK equation.
If car A EVOLVES over time and continues to evolve ,than car B comes and just looks like how car A was evolving, car A is not copying car B. Its pretty much the other way around, or car B got influcenced by car A.
For example.
Car A= Gen1, then Gen2, then Gen3,

Car B=No evolution, no history, nothing to stick too, thus, out of nowhere, it looks like Gen4 of car A.

Then

Car A= Gen4, and everyone says "hey car A copied car B".

When Car A was EVOLVING for YEARS.

Car designers KNOW this, that is why many cars resemble the newer version of a car. And most ALL companies have done this in one way, shape, form or the other.

3. What looks similar in pics, can look strikingly different in person, in the flesh. "God is in the details". I challenge everyone to really LOOK at the car and notice not just how it looks, but where doors meet, where fenders end, does the hood crease, what subtle items have you never noticed. Many cars have obvious cues, but the masters of design also have subtle ones that add a touch special.

4. Guess what, all designers went to the same schools and work for the same companies. So if you wonder why sometimes things look the same, well the same people are making them.

5. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

6. Don't really judge a design today, when it debuts. Judge it 5 years from now (when the payments are up :D ). Judge it 10 years from now. Does it still look fresh? Did it age well? Did it influence other designs? Are the design items still relevant (say projector headlights in the ES back in 1992)?

7. Yes, it seems windows are getting smaller and the sides of cars, from the bottom of the window to the bottom of the car, are getting taller and taller. Two things, one, there is a belief in this time of "terrorism", people don't want to be seen in the window. The 2nd thing is, as cars have become more body-colored, the cars seem longer and wider.

8. Yes, seemingly every next generation of your car goes one up in size. This has to do with humans just getting bigger and more safety items and bigger engines and more tech packed into cars. Personally, I am not a fan of this trend, as if I like a car or design, it seems to grow huge with ever new version out. So I am left having to choose the smaller car possibly.

9. Flash is in. It used to be big chrome and tailfins. It used to be gold emblems. Now its giant company emblems, giant wheel arches, giant wheels, giant grills. Big in IN. Seemingly the bigger the better. That is why when you see a Lotus Elise, PLEASE give that guy a thumbs up. Or a Mini Cooper. Companies want to create a brand and the biggest way is to advertise their brand in a bold size. Not many companies are blessed like BMW with the hoffmiester kink (the way the C-pillar curves in) or the double kidney grill. So no matter what they make the car look like, they have 2 easily identifiable marks. And they have history to go with it. Most companies don't have this or have changed design so much, people can't tell their car from a microwave.

10. My prediction. Small cars are the future. As technology gets smaller and smaller, cars won't need to be so big to fit everything. You will always have your large cars but small is going to comeback! Europe already knows this :D

This stems from that post saying the ES350 = Acura RL doesn't it Mike? That got you riled up :p

and all the other posts about all the new car designs, i like your thoughts though

I am going to make this brief :D

1. Do you know pretty much after a brand new, redesigned model is out, the company starts working on updating and a new model immediately! For instance, the IS just came out a couple months ago, well, Lexus is already working on freshning it, as well as the 3IS.

2. Maybe someone can help with the math equation but here is the SICK equation.
If car A EVOLVES over time and continues to evolve ,than car B comes and just looks like how car A was evolving, car A is not copying car B. Its pretty much the other way around, or car B got influcenced by car A.
For example.
Car A= Gen1, then Gen2, then Gen3,

Car B=No evolution, no history, nothing to stick too, thus, out of nowhere, it looks like Gen4 of car A.

Then

Car A= Gen4, and everyone says "hey car A copied car B".

When Car A was EVOLVING for YEARS.

Car designers KNOW this, that is why many cars resemble the newer version of a car. And most ALL companies have done this in one way, shape, form or the other.

3. What looks similar in pics, can look strikingly different in person, in the flesh. "God is in the details". I challenge everyone to really LOOK at the car and notice not just how it looks, but where doors meet, where fenders end, does the hood crease, what subtle items have you never noticed. Many cars have obvious cues, but the masters of design also have subtle ones that add a touch special.

4. Guess what, all designers went to the same schools and work for the same companies. So if you wonder why sometimes things look the same, well the same people are making them.

5. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

6. Don't really judge a design today, when it debuts. Judge it 5 years from now (when the payments are up :D ). Judge it 10 years from now. Does it still look fresh? Did it age well? Did it influence other designs? Are the design items still relevant (say projector headlights in the ES back in 1992)?

7. Yes, it seems windows are getting smaller and the sides of cars, from the bottom of the window to the bottom of the car, are getting taller and taller. Two things, one, there is a belief in this time of "terrorism", people don't want to be seen in the window. The 2nd thing is, as cars have become more body-colored, the cars seem longer and wider.

8. Yes, seemingly every next generation of your car goes one up in size. This has to do with humans just getting bigger and more safety items and bigger engines and more tech packed into cars. Personally, I am not a fan of this trend, as if I like a car or design, it seems to grow huge with ever new version out. So I am left having to choose the smaller car possibly.

9. Flash is in. It used to be big chrome and tailfins. It used to be gold emblems. Now its giant company emblems, giant wheel arches, giant wheels, giant grills. Big in IN. Seemingly the bigger the better. That is why when you see a Lotus Elise, PLEASE give that guy a thumbs up. Or a Mini Cooper. Companies want to create a brand and the biggest way is to advertise their brand in a bold size. Not many companies are blessed like BMW with the hoffmiester kink (the way the C-pillar curves in) or the double kidney grill. So no matter what they make the car look like, they have 2 easily identifiable marks. And they have history to go with it. Most companies don't have this or have changed design so much, people can't tell their car from a microwave.

10. My prediction. Small cars are the future. As technology gets smaller and smaller, cars won't need to be so big to fit everything. You will always have your large cars but small is going to comeback! Europe already knows this :D

I take it for your post is a stone trown into my backyard? Still can't relax over my yesterdays comment regarding the next ES looking like a copy of RL?

I will not however argue with you whether or not the design of ES has evolved from past generation or was copied from the RL, because I honestly do not care. I do however want to clear something up - yesterday you accused me of being an RL fan and said it was my favorite car. Well, just so you know, I don't care for the RL at all, the only Acura's I like are the NSX and old Integra, and somewhat the old Legend coupe. As far as RL vs ES - one's souped up Accord, the other's souped up Camry, maybe I'd start caring for them once I turn 40.

I take it for your post is a stone trown into my backyard? Still can't relax over my yesterdays comment regarding the next ES looking like a copy of RL?

I will not however argue with you whether or not the design of ES has evolved from past generation or was copied from the RL, because I honestly do not care. I do however want to clear something up - yesterday you accused me of being an RL fan and said it was my favorite car. Well, just so you know, I don't care for the RL at all, the only Acura's I like are the NSX and old Integra, and somewhat the old Legend coupe. As far as RL vs ES - one's souped up Accord, the other's souped up Camry, maybe I'd start caring for them once I turn 40.

PLEASE don't turn this into another brand vs brand discussion. I think Mike's post was very carefully worded to be general and not have it degrade into arguments as those posts often do... assigning a continuation of a previous debate in a new thread is not effective.

PM me if you disagree with this please and let this general design discussion get back on track.

I think you made some excellent observations Mike regarding design trends, especially on the size issues. A Corolla today is probably the size of a 85 Camry. And yeah Europe is definitely early with the small car movement. I think that's moreso predicated on the price of petroleum over there, hence the popularity of 4 bangers. And you know that MB A-class will never come stateside (but then again who knows). Good thread!!

I am going to make this brief :D

:uh: :D

1-5 great.

6. Don't really judge a design today, when it debuts. Judge it 5 years from now (when the payments are up :D ). Judge it 10 years from now. Does it still look fresh? Did it age well? Did it influence other designs? Are the design items still relevant (say projector headlights in the ES back in 1992)?

Agreed, but it's tough to judge a design if you want to buy a car newer than 5 years old! ;)

7, 8, 9 agreed.

10. My prediction. Small cars are the future.

Well "the future" is a long time. ;) But I'd say it's cyclical and small cars seem to be more trendy again, like guys with shaggy hair have. I feel like we're in the 70's again. :D

As technology gets smaller and smaller, cars won't need to be so big to fit everything.

Actually 'technology' as in electronics doesn't take up that much space. And many features these days can't ignore the laws of physics that govern their size or the forces they must exert. Brake calipers can only get so small for example. Engines themselves may get smaller physically but with hybrids now having gasoline AND electric motors it's taking up MORE space.

You will always have your large cars but small is going to comeback! Europe already knows this :D

Europe will always favor small cars because many of the roads are small, the parking space in cities and towns is EXTREMELY scarce and the parking spots themselves are miniscule, and frankly they don't have the disposible income to shell out on large ones.

As I said, I think it goes in cycles, but I think the small car fad this time will be even shorter in the U.S. Here's some reasons why:

People like to cart too much $#%! around with them and you can't fit 2 dozen bags of groceries into a Scion Tc let alone 3 golf bags, or 2 baby strollers, or that huge cooler for the tailgate party, or take a mountain bike anywhere, or, or...

I think space is a luxury and Americans in particular love it.

It's no secret that Americans continue to eat WAAAAAAAAAAY too much with little exercise and so basically not enough people will FIT into small cars any more. Sad but true.

Last is the demographics - old people don't want tiny cars. They don't trust them. Now you may say you don't trust old people in huge cars either but they have practical reasons to have them too. Try carrying a 'walker' or a wheelchair for Gramma in that Civic. Try getting her in and out of it! This is where the 'hip point' matters a huge amount and why MANY vehicles have gotten taller in recent years. The thing I LOVED about the RX300 my wife used to have was opening the door and just sliding across onto the seat. WAY easier to get in and out of compared to my GS.

Anyway, great thread 1SICKCARGURU!

I think Mikes thread was very informative and basically right to the point... I can agree with all those mentioned above.. Look at commercials for example... and spy shots of vehicles... There all 2 door cars like the Civic, future Supra, and infiniti models... are aimed towards the younger generation. Me personally i used to love the 2 door sports car but now as we ( I ) get older i enjoy the 4 door like the GS...

I'm going to stop rambling on.. That was a great thread to read and very interesting... Thanks

Tony

Mike, as usual, summed things up pretty well....there isn't a whole lot I really want ( or need ) to add except for two points. First, It may be true that some models increase in physical size as they are redesigned, but not only does the increasing use of technology and non-steel parts often keep the total vehicle weight down as this happens, but what is considered " large " and " full-size " by today's standards, like the Chrysler 300, would barely make a compact by the standards of the cars I grew up with. I laugh when I see cars like the 300, Lucerne, Mecedes S-Class, etc..... referred to as " big " cars. Believe me, I know what big cars are.
Second, Mike mentioned, in point #9, the use of giant wheels and tires in today's cars. This gets back to what I have posted before about today's vehicles being designed more and more like BMW's all the time, with increasing emphasis on steering response, a firm ride, and flat cornering....at the cost of ride comfort and quietness. Each new redesign that comes out features lower and lower-profile tires...to the point that what would have been considered absurd on a family car just a few years ago is now the norm. Even cars like the Lexus ES330, Cadillac DTS, and Buick Lucerne, which had a previous history of good riding comfort, are now being shod with tires in the 45-55 series range instead of the much-better-riding 60-70 series of just a couple of years ago. It is very difficult today......and getting more difficult each year.....to find a TRULY smooth-riding car today, even for senior citizens. They, for the most part, are being ignored....and this is something that manufacturers today just don't seem to understand. I ran into this time and time again at the Washington DC Auto Show, discussing this with company reps there. They think that everything has to be marketed like a Scion or a BMW.

the front of the new es looks exactly like the front of the RL

http://world.honda.com/NAIAS2005/photos/acura-rl/image/02.jpg
http://www.clubacura.com/lexus/lexus-es350-spy-photo3.jpg

the front of the new es looks exactly like the front of the RL




Read point #4
4. Guess what, all designers went to the same schools and work for the same companies. So if you wonder why sometimes things look the same, well the same people are making them.


Since the Legend/RL has been evolving with each new generation since 1986, and the ES also has been evolving since its inception, it was just a matter of time before the two cars started to look similar given that the designers are all schooled the same. The Legend/RL just happened to originally be released a few years before the original ES, thus its evolution to its current 2005 form a few years before the ES350's evolution to its current 2007 forum.

the front of the new es looks exactly like the front of the RL

http://world.honda.com/NAIAS2005/photos/acura-rl/image/02.jpg
http://www.clubacura.com/lexus/lexus-es350-spy-photo3.jpg

They look NOTHING alike. :egads:

I'm an industrial designer (car design included in this field). After reading hundreds of comments in a ton of threads saying car A and car B look exactly alike, I sometimes feel that you need to be a designer or have a really good sense of design to distinguish even the most different things. :dunno:

As Sick pointed out about evolution, the new ES is an evolution starting from the 1st ES300. Certainly more so than the RL compared to Acura's past.

Look closer, there's a world of differance.

:)

Thanks to a member who PMd me, my points were so incredible, so close to the heart, that it was linked to another forum, where they are in a heated discussion about something they haven't the foggiest idea about :D

We don't cross post here and if you find the thread, please don't post it here either. :p

I am really am on peoples minds, I thank you, it means so much to me :D Jeremy Clarkson, eat your heart out. :batman:


This thread was something I wanted to write sometime ago, I saved it and added some new points. Even I admit, sometimes, I compared cars looks that are similar. Unlike most people, I go to see the cars myself and try to find them or get them together to make further judgement. Also, when you read say 30 auto mags/books a month, you tend to notice things.

I am not a car designer, nor engineer but trying to help people understand design better.

For one, I was not a fan of the keyless entry. I thought having the keyfob was good enough. I thought Benz and Lexus was just making another gimmick.

Well let me tell you.

When I had the RX 300 in for maintenance and had a RX 330 loaner, with the power liftgate, I didn't realize how handy that was until Christmas time, when my hands were full, it was wet and I didn't want to put the bags down. VIOLA, I was like "how could I have never had this".

Same thing with keyless entry, after using it in numerous new Lexus models, going back to a car without it, when your hands are full, to just walk up to a car and open the door, again, GOOD DESIGN!!!

Check olut the new Benz thread I made, I noticed something after seeing the ad again today, a very powerful, but subtle move on Benz's part.

They look NOTHING alike. :egads:

I'm an industrial designer (car design included in this field). After reading hundreds of comments in a ton of threads saying car A and car B look exactly alike, I sometimes feel that you need to be a designer or have a really good sense of design to distinguish even the most different things. :dunno:

As Sick pointed out about evolution, the new ES is an evolution starting from the 1st ES300. Certainly more so than the RL compared to Acura's past.

Look closer, there's a world of differance.

:)
but the general public wont know this

for most car shoppers the FRONT looks very identical. the rest of the car looks different. i would see your point if i compared a neon or ford truck to the new es. the closer you look, the more they look the same in the FRONT, just change a few lines and viola. and the rl's looks have evolved just like the es's

They look NOTHING alike. :egads:

I'm an industrial designer (car design included in this field). After reading hundreds of comments in a ton of threads saying car A and car B look exactly alike, I sometimes feel that you need to be a designer or have a really good sense of design to distinguish even the most different things. :dunno:

As Sick pointed out about evolution, the new ES is an evolution starting from the 1st ES300. Certainly more so than the RL compared to Acura's past.

Look closer, there's a world of differance.

:)

but the general public wont know this
:werd: car enthusiasts will pick apart the differences, but there are a lot of people who can't tell.
my insurance agent would ask me everytime how i liked my lexus, when i had an rl, and just the opposite when i pull up in my es300. he loves cars and has 2 newer benzes and really can't tell the difference

It doesn't really matter, I do not think that Lexus was trying to copy RL, or vice versa, I actually think its a pure coincidence that the new ES anr RL have the same looking front.

Great thread. :thumbup: I've thought about that too at some point and time. Makes perfect sense. But what do you think about when Toyota releases statements(which they did about the Avalon) that there designs are taking 29 months to complete?? From the drawing board to pre production ready. Significantly shorter than the usual 5-6 year plan.

I personally dont see that much similarity between the two models at all. This thread isnt really about the ES and the RL only, its a general statement about the entire industry(plus as successful Lexus has been of late design wise, I personally highly doubt that they would copy an argueably failing model. :dunno: )