From Wired (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html)

A silver Lexus RX 400h hybrid SUV is suspended on a lift in a room the size of a soccer field at the General Motors Technical Center in Warren, Michigan. It was purchased off the lot just a few days ago for $49,000, loaded, which seems a waste, since it's already a carcass. Mechanic John Klucka has removed its tires and engine and doors and seats and dashboard and, well, just about everything but a few wires and the windshield. "This is a complicated vehicle," he says, unbolting the engine from its frame, "and I've got no manual, so I'm taking it apart blind."

Within a few weeks, GM engineers will unravel the Lexus' every secret - down to the weight and production cost of each nut and bolt - just as they've done with every other Toyota hybrid model. The latest Prius lies in on a table in the corner, gutted, tagged, and spread out like a frog in a high school biology lab.

Toyotas aren't the only cars being disemboweled here at GM's Vehicle Assessment and Benchmarking Activity center. A 2006 Mercedes ML350 waits to be carved up with a handheld power saw. A VW Touareg is spread helter-skelter. Chryslers and Hondas and BMWs and Fords lie dismantled, their parts reduced to labels and data points: Cap ASM F/Tank Fil, 1 @ .068 kg. Switch ASM HTR w/bezel, 1 @ .174 kg. It's all part of the biggest open secret in Detroit: Automakers reverse engineer their opponents' newest and hottest vehicles in what's called a competitive teardown.

"You wouldn't think there'd be any mysteries anymore," says auto industry analyst Lindsay Brooke. "But what used to be a closed club is now a ruthless global business. Suddenly you've got the Koreans undercutting the Japanese, and the Chinese about to undercut everyone. As much as you think you know," he says, "nothing beats picking up the parts, feeling them, weighing them, and knowing the processes that made them. Teardowns are part of a big cat-and-mouse game, and they're more important than ever."

Radios. Seat cushions. Welds. Drive trains. Bumpers. Headliners. Every company wants to know exactly how its competitors' cars are put together and how much they cost to make so it can learn how to save money on parts, shed weight, and improve its manufacturing methods. Even more important, teardowns help executives make long-term strategic decisions. A teardown of the 2004 Prius two years ago helped sour GM on hybrid technology. The company is slowly rolling out hybrid trucks and buses, but it's focusing its innovation efforts on fuel cells.

A full teardown takes about six weeks. First, mechanics measure the vehicle with a device called a 3-D vector arm, taking all of the car's inner and outer dimensions, like the bumper height and the distance from the driver's eyes to the steering wheel. They create a digital blueprint, then they disassemble the car. Each part gets named, weighed, and labeled with a number. Cost estimators gauge the price of every one, not only to determine what competitors spend but also to pressure GM's own suppliers. "We know a certain kind of plastic costs x per kilo," explains staff project engineer Craig Duncan, a round man in standard GM dress of khakis and a polo shirt. "So we know the mass of the part, what the labor rate is, and what the shipping costs are, and we start adding up all the puzzle pieces. It's a scientific way of being much more aggressive with our suppliers to push the cost down." Finally, all the information is entered into a database for GM engineers puzzling out new car designs.

Some insights are big and obvious. Toyota, for instance, installs many of the same parts, from seats to door handles, in models as diverse as the inexpensive Corolla and the luxury Lexus. But details, too, can be revealing. Most body frames have material to quiet vibrations: Chrysler uses glued pads; Ford, rows of a caulk-like substance. "Why did Ford do it that way?" Duncan asks. He points to what was recently a cherry Mustang and is now a bare-metal lower-body shell. "It looks primitive," Duncan says, pointing to the rows of caulk, "but it's not. A robot did it. That means one machine could be programmed for lots of different cars. No parts. No person babysitting the parts. No parts room. Huge savings." Duncan adds that the number and type of welds can show "how many robots they've got. Sometimes your competitors do things better than you; sometimes they don't. But you have to know."

On top of about 40 complete teardowns per year, GM subjects up to 20 vehicles - like the Mercedes ML350 SUV - to a process known as a "full trim-saw cut": 100-mm-wide cross sections are taken from the doors and roof pillars and fenders. "If you want to be competitive in the midsize luxury category, you have to look at the Mercedes," Duncan says. Flatbed scanners turn these slivers into digital blueprints. The diagrams enable the company's engineers to analyze such arcane information as the design of the A-pillar - the slender structure at the side of the windshield - which not only supports the roof but also contains sound-dampening rubber seals, an airbag, and the electrical connections between overhead lamps and dash.

A dissected hybrid lies on display in the back of the VABA, next to the remains of a Chevy Malibu. The Prius demystified comes down to this: It has 1,432 propulsion parts (the Malibu has 822). It has two electric motors, plus lots of software and finely machined gears to transport power to the wheels. That makes the Prius very expensive to design and build. And for all the publicity, Toyota is likely to sell a mere 105,000 Priuses this year in a US market of 16 million vehicles. "Prius owners love it, but are the other 16 million-plus people beating down the doors of Toyota dealerships to buy a hybrid?" Lindsay Brooke asks. "Not yet, and Toyota will have to figure out how to drive the hybrid vehicle segment into the meat of the North American market."

To do that, Toyota is introducing hybrid engines into cars like the luxury Lexus SUV. The 400h is remarkably similar to the nonhybrid Lexus RX 330 except for its braking system and a hybrid engine that produces 268 horsepower (as opposed to 230 from the regular SUV). It's marketed as a performance luxury car with a hybrid's typical fuel parsimony. Yet the 400h gets just three more miles per gallon on the highway than the RX 330 - and it costs nearly $10,000 more. GM engineers say that this price tag at last accurately reflects the real cost of hybrid tech. Which means that consumers who buy a Lexus hybrid are paying thousands for a technology that will never pay for itself in fuel savings.

That's typical of Toyota, say critics. With the Prius, says electrical engineer Michael Cutajar, "Toyota took a Corolla and added huge amounts of cost and complexity. They don't make any money on it." Toyota scoffs at the idea. "We're making money on the Prius," says Nancy Hubbell, a spokesperson for the company, "especially with the economy of scale we're getting by introducing two new models this year and two next year. The additional cost of a system is more like $3,500 per auto." And in any event, Hubbell says, consumers buy hybrids not only for fuel savings but also for intangibles like lower emissions and cleaner air.

The teardowns tell GM a different story. "They're all about validating our insights into what competitors are doing and extrapolating where we think they're going," says Clay Phillips, GM's director of intelligence, in charge of scoping out other automakers. Phillips, a former Navy intel officer, is tall and thin, with a gray mustache and a serious, almost scholarly demeanor. "We think the Prius was originally less about fuel economy and more about a technical and assembly experiment," he says. "In Japan, the hybrid drive was sold as a cool electronic feature. Fuel economy was hardly mentioned, and I have a hunch that fuel efficiency was a marketing strategy that they just stumbled onto."

more...use above link for source.

Just because GM can play Legos doesn't mean they can fix their R&D... :D

Makes me think of the recent Buick Lucerne ads on TV, at least 2 of which mention the ES 330 in them....not only was the ES 330 benchmarked on spec, evidently according to this article it was 'dissected' and reverse-engineered.

And yet the all-new Buick Lucerne, which I sat inside in at the LA Auto Show, feels very cheap compared to the older ES.

It used to bother me a bit that Lexus vehicles had parts sharing from 'the Toyota bin' but now that Toyota has come to stand for quality, I don't mind as much...as long as the Lexus price advantage stays! :)

one of our members put it perfectly

I can see the value in competitive information...but it seems like the intended primary use for the information, namely vendor price pressure, and lower manufacturing costs appears to be yet another example of American car manufacturers focusing on everything but developing compelling new cars that people want to buy. Cut costs, get into price wars, reverse engineer... Man, I wonder what would happen if they actually put some effort into discovering,highering, and developing great car designers instead of all this.

kind of true, if they spent more time designing rather than looking at the competition you'd actually come up w/ something better.

I think this is fairly common. I remember the competition even Ferrari disassembled the Honda/Acura NSX when it first came out to see how it was built.

I think this is fairly common. I remember the competition even Ferrari disassembled the Honda/Acura NSX when it first came out to see how it was built.
yeah i agree it's pretty common, i am sure toyota and everyone else does that too. quick way to learn and improve

I thought Mercedes had dissected a LS more than a decade ago. They bought one, took it apart to see how Toyota managed to build such a high quality car, then came to the conclusion : no we can't do that ;) :D

YEah, everyone does this but thanks for the good read!

excellent article... I only have one question...



Are there any nice suburbs near Warren, because I think I just found the job for me. :D

I'm sure your local salvage yard would hire you, it's the same type of work....

I'm sure your local salvage yard would hire you, it's the same type of work....

LOL im sure it's a bit more analytical than just taking things apart.

Maybe if they stopped buying other high end models to rip apart, they'd have the time to properly design their own and the cash to keep their employees.

:egads:

This kind of "competitive analysis" is a good sign of a manufacturer's openness to new ideas. If they only concentrated on their way of doing things, GM's engineering department would become inbred. Dissecting the competition's product may seem a little underhanded, but for us consumers, it eventually gives us a better product - at a better price.

This kind of "competitive analysis" is a good sign of a manufacturer's openness to new ideas. If they only concentrated on their way of doing things, GM's engineering department would become inbred. Dissecting the competition's product may seem a little underhanded, but for us consumers, it eventually gives us a better product - at a better price.
yep, everyone does it.

However, their comments are pretty stupid - toyota "stumbled" at hybrids getting best mpg? what in the world is he possibly thinking while saying that? With Toyota on track of selling some 500,000 hybrid per year by 2007, can it be called low volume technology?

As to the hydrogen... these people just make me laugh. First of all, Toyota is developing fuel cell cars as well.
2nd of all, hybrid components will be crucial for fuel cell vehicles. 3rd of all, by 2007, most of the world will still not have access to clean diesel that has been available in some parts for 10 years now. How in the world will they build hydrogen supply if they cant modernize oil rafineries at that rate?

By 2010, GM will be saying how in 2 years they will have an hydrogen powered vehicle. Same will happen in 2012.

I thought Mercedes had dissected a LS more than a decade ago. They bought one, took it apart to see how Toyota managed to build such a high quality car, then came to the conclusion : no we can't do that ;) :D

I remember this too except I think it was BMW that dissected an LS when it had first come out and they said that they could not build one and sell it for less than ~75k. The LS was going for around 35k at that time.

most GM cars in 7 years = worthless

Not only would they be very cheap blue book wise but they're going to be collecting dust on lots. Funny how once new $50,000 Cadillacs are soon worth less than a $25,000 Toyota Camry of the same year, less than 10 years later.

I bet GM is looking at the Lexus, puzzled at the technology they could never match like this guy,

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~foo/wtf.jpg

yep, everyone does it.

However, their comments are pretty stupid - toyota "stumbled" at hybrids getting best mpg? what in the world is he possibly thinking while saying that? With Toyota on track of selling some 500,000 hybrid per year by 2007, can it be called low volume technology?

As to the hydrogen... these people just make me laugh. First of all, Toyota is developing fuel cell cars as well.
2nd of all, hybrid components will be crucial for fuel cell vehicles. 3rd of all, by 2007, most of the world will still not have access to clean diesel that has been available in some parts for 10 years now. How in the world will they build hydrogen supply if they cant modernize oil rafineries at that rate?

By 2010, GM will be saying how in 2 years they will have an hydrogen powered vehicle. Same will happen in 2012.
they did have a point though, ive even heard ppl on this forum say that the hybrid is not worth the extra dough b/c it will never pay for itself, unless your one of those enviormental types

I bet GM is looking at the Lexus, puzzled at the technology they could never match like this guy,

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~foo/wtf.jpg

That picture is priceless. :D I believe that's British comedian **** Emery who was incredibly funny (don't know if he's still this side of the turf). He would play that priest (reverend as they say there) with false buck teeth but he was always saying inappropriate stuff - very funny.

Forgot to say - great article! :thumbup:

I'm sure it's tough when dissecting those competitive vehicles to not dismiss stuff simply because it's NIH (not invented here).

While Toyota may be creating a market with thin benefits and profits (hybrids), the LESSONS they're learning from building them are no doubt invaluable.

If you like skinny tires, weird sounds, funny transmissions, guages that come out of Homer Simpson's nuclear plant, then a Prius is the car for you. :D

yep, everyone does it.

However, their comments are pretty stupid - toyota "stumbled" at hybrids getting best mpg? what in the world is he possibly thinking while saying that? With Toyota on track of selling some 500,000 hybrid per year by 2007, can it be called low volume technology?

As to the hydrogen... these people just make me laugh. First of all, Toyota is developing fuel cell cars as well.
2nd of all, hybrid components will be crucial for fuel cell vehicles. 3rd of all, by 2007, most of the world will still not have access to clean diesel that has been available in some parts for 10 years now. How in the world will they build hydrogen supply if they cant modernize oil rafineries at that rate?

By 2010, GM will be saying how in 2 years they will have an hydrogen powered vehicle. Same will happen in 2012.

Exactly. Everyone does it. How else could a company like Hyundai make such a competitive car like the Sonata?

On the other hand, realize that reverse engineering doesn't tell you as much as those GM workers would like to think. Reverse engineering a Prius won't help you build a Prius; what I mean is that taking apart a competitor's car won't tell you about the competition's production processes, or what sort of assembly methods and techniques they use.

As mentioned by others in the thread, everyone reverse engineers each other's cars, and it's usually for cost reduction. Mercedes reverse engineered a Lexus LS after it first came out, and over a decade later, Mercedes still cannot match Lexus quality. Reverse engineering will not tell you assembly line secrets that Toyota uses in it's Tahara plant.

Also, GM must be kidding themselves if they can just "give a nod" to hybrids and go straight to hydrogen or fuel cell cars. First of all, commercially viable and available fuel cell cars are at least a decade away, if not more so. Furthermore, if you do a bit of research, you will see that the first fuel cell cars on the market will likely be hybrids, because by then hybrid technology will be advanced and cheap enough to make it a no-brainer. Hybrid technology will increase the mileage, and power of a fuel cell vehicle. The beauty of hybrid technology is that it can be combined with any type of powertrains, from diesel, to gas engines, to fuel cells. Even in worse case, if hybrids are not used in the future, the knowledge gained from them about electrical systems will be of great use for future vehicles. I find it funny that GM workers make such comments.

And while GM is busy making bold comments and reverse engineering the competition, competition like Toyota is busy readying its 3rd gen hybrid technology, as well as constantly reducing development times.

i agree with what you said, looking at parts doesnt give you the process in which the parts go together. But for some company like GM, they essentially can sit on their laurels and just dissect to see the advancments made by say...Toyota...so when they decide to go hybrid or hydrogen...their development time would be from scratch so-to-speak.

I know that this is a common thing in the industry...heck for all others as well that produce a tangible product. I'm sure Toyota did it immensely prior to launching the Lexus line. But what they did learn was how to do it better and cheaper...and that is where they have their german counterparts scratching their heads.

they did have a point though, ive even heard ppl on this forum say that the hybrid is not worth the extra dough b/c it will never pay for itself, unless your one of those enviormental types


Buying a hybrid isnt JUST about saving money on gas. Do people constantly need reminding of this? The huge difference in emissions output between full gasoline engines and hybrid engines is quite striking.

Think about it: The Lexus RX400h and Toyota Prius are the "IT" cars to have in Hollywood and the rest of the "in style" world. Why? Not because they can save on gas (****, most major actors and actresses make more in a day than the average american does in a year) its because of the low emissions.

Buying a hybrid isnt JUST about saving money on gas. Do people constantly need reminding of this? The huge difference in emissions output between full gasoline engines and hybrid engines is quite striking.

Think about it: The Lexus RX400h and Toyota Prius are the "IT" cars to have in Hollywood and the rest of the "in style" world. Why? Not because they can save on gas (****, most major actors and actresses make more in a day than the average american does in a year) its because of the low emissions.
same goes for diesel engines, you are not buying them for fuel savings, but for power as well. As with RX400h.

Prius is so sucessful because it is the price of Camry, has a lot of space and gets 50mpg. It also looks interesting and has a lot of technology packed in. It is affordable car that anyone can buy instead of Camry.

GM's engineers comparing it to Impala... lol.

It is one thing to research competitors, but to dismiss them like that is clearly an PR. Ford recently said that PR doesnt make you the leader, products do, obviously GM has a way to go.

Prius actually pays off since its resale is crazy. You actually save money when you buy prius over camry, and even corolla.

Yes, it is because of the resale (plus 15 mpg savings), but folks, it is the same for diesels here in Europe. People pay 2k more for an diesel engine, not because they like it better but because once they sell the car 3-4 years from now, they will get 3k more than for petrol version.

This has been going on since the motor car was invented. When the original fwd mini came out in the UK in the early 60s, none of the other manufacturers could work out how a new car with such radical new technology could be sold at that price. Ford took a mini and stripped it down in a similar way to the article above and worked out that Austin were losing money on every mini they sold. The mini was a big sales success but it continued to lose money for over 10 years. Ford decided that they would pursue another direction with the rwd Cortina and within 15 years were the biggest manufacturer in Britain.

Mind you they are not anymore...

Hmm makes you wonder, if any other car manufacturer is tearing down GM, or Ford products to reverse engineer their cars. :thumbdn: I still have fond memories of my then new 89 GrandAm literally falling apart on me, radio stop working, headliner came down, rear view mirror fell off, dashboard separated, and started coming apart, heating/ ac vents broke, body cladding came loose, car would never aligned properly, starter went out, seat adjustment knobs came off, hood latch broke, all in the 4yrs I owned that %$#&@#$! I never bought a new GM car again, but I did have a memory lapse and bought a used chevy S-10 with the V-6, I had it exactly 6 months, and practically gave it away. Sorry for the rant, I got caught up emotionally, did I mentioned the tube of super glue I found in my car after picking it up from the dealer, supposedly fixing my dashboard! :eek2: Now I did it!!! My suppressed memories came back!!! Must go lay down, relax a little.

Makes me think of the recent Buick Lucerne ads on TV, at least 2 of which mention the ES 330 in them....not only was the ES 330 benchmarked on spec, evidently according to this article it was 'dissected' and reverse-engineered.

And yet the all-new Buick Lucerne, which I sat inside in at the LA Auto Show, feels very cheap compared to the older ES.


As far as GM starting to build more Lexus-like vehicles in quality, there is both fact and fiction here. The Lucerne, as you mention, has been the subject of a lot of hype lately. GM chief Bob Lutz himself has announced he is trading his chauffer-drive Cadillac for one. I reviewed all three trim levels of the Lucerne a couple of months ago and I agree with you....I found all three somewhat dissapointing in cheapness and in overall quality, although the top-line V8 was, naturally, somewhat nicer than the others. With one or two exceptions, the trim quality and plastic inside was just as bargain-basement as previous Buicks, and I actually preferred the outgoing Park Avenue's interior overall.
Same with some other new GM interiors I have seen.....the Pontiac G6's for example. GM is purtting chrome circles around the gauges and vents for a little bit of flash, and the climate-control knobs feel a little more precision-made, but in general it is the same old cheapness with a couple pieces of flash.

NOT, so, however, with the new 2007 Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon, Denali, and Escalade.....they ARE impressive. I spent a lot of time at the recent Washington, DC Auto Show examining these new SUVs. ( A GM camera-crew and a team of Product Specialists, when they found out I was with Club Lexus and did auto write-ups, also asked me to do a formal interview for them with my thoughts, positive and negative, on these and other new GM products ). Here, GM not only talks, but, for the first time in many years, DOES appear to deliver on its promise of better quality......at least in the showroom. These vehicles, inside and out, do appear to have a lot of materials that are almost ( not quite, but close ) Lexus-grade. ( No, they didn't pay me to say this :D ). I won't go into all the details about these new vehicles and interiors...much has been posted and discussed here on CAR CHAT about them. We won't know the whole vehicle, of course, without a test-drive, which I will do when they become available.....and I will definitely do a formal review on at least one or two of them, including the Tahoe, which is likely to be the largest-seller.

most GM cars in 7 years = worthless

Not only would they be very cheap blue book wise but they're going to be collecting dust on lots. Funny how once new $50,000 Cadillacs are soon worth less than a $25,000 Toyota Camry of the same year, less than 10 years later.


and people continue to buy new caddys

and people continue to buy new caddys

Yes, but look at the new Caddys. They are not your grandfather's mush-mobile. Today, with few exceptions, they are luxury-sport sedans, and some of them.....the CTS-V, STS-V, and XLR-V, compete with BMWs. Even the senior-citizen DTS ( formerly DeVille) has lower-profile tires and a more responsive chassis than previously. Cadillac, like many other automakers today, is tossing the soft-ride and comfort fans aside in favor of pursuit of the sports-sedan crowd.

Yes, but look at the new Caddys. They are not your grandfather's mush-mobile. Today, with few exceptions, they are luxury-sport sedans, and some of them.....the CTS-V, STS-V, and XLR-V, compete with BMWs. Even the senior-citizen DTS ( formerly DeVille) has lower-profile tires and a more responsive chassis than previously. Cadillac, like many other automakers today, is tossing the soft-ride and comfort fans aside in favor of pursuit of the sports-sedan crowd.
the new ones prob won't lose as much as fast as the older ones did, they def have some better choices now

Buying a hybrid isnt JUST about saving money on gas. Do people constantly need reminding of this? The huge difference in emissions output between full gasoline engines and hybrid engines is quite striking.

Surely only when the gasoline engine isn't running. And that isn't the case with highway driving for example, so how striking is it really?

The Lexus RX400h and Toyota Prius are the "IT" cars to have in Hollywood and the rest of the "in style" world. Why?

Because Hollywood and the "in style" world are more about 'feel good' things than doing anything significant.

If driving a hybrid makes you feel like you're saving the world, knock yourself out. I don't think it makes the SLIGHTEST difference. While a few hundred thousand or even millions of hybrids might get out there, we may end up with a BILLION more cars on the road in the next few years as prosperity grows in developing nations. And the world's emissions don't just come from cars. With MASSIVE growth in economic activity in China and India, their need for new emission-emitting power stations and other plants and factories will dwarf anything going on elsewhere.

same goes for diesel engines, you are not buying them for fuel savings, but for power as well.

Cuz you sure aren't buying a diesel for low emissions. Can you say carcinogens? :D

And diesels have good low end torque, but you won't hear of many diesels doing great high speeds. They almost always need turbos to get decent passing power as well.

Cuz you sure aren't buying a diesel for low emissions. Can you say carcinogens? :D

And diesels have good low end torque, but you won't hear of many diesels doing great high speeds. They almost always need turbos to get decent passing power as well.

The main reason diesels don't do well on top end is not so much the need for turbos but the low redlines. Compression-ignition engines, turbo or not, for a variety of reasons, simply cannot turn high RPM's as efficiently or as safely as short-stroke, VTEC-equipped gasoline engines. If you gear them tall enough to get a high top speed with low RPM's, at least theoretically on paper, the gearing will make them lose enough power that they will not overcome the increased air resistance.

Current U.S.-spec diesel emissions are actually pretty good in the NO2 and CO areas. It is the area of solid particulates ( better known as soot ) that diesels, while improving, still trail in ( one reason why they cannot be sold new in CA )....but even then they are much better than they used to be. However, the advent of clean low-sulfur diesel fuel here in the U.S. and urea-injection systems which are being perfected will soon open up a whole new world for diesels here.

Surely only when the gasoline engine isn't running. And that isn't the case with highway driving for example, so how striking is it really?



Because Hollywood and the "in style" world are more about 'feel good' things than doing anything significant.

If driving a hybrid makes you feel like you're saving the world, knock yourself out. I don't think it makes the SLIGHTEST difference. While a few hundred thousand or even millions of hybrids might get out there, we may end up with a BILLION more cars on the road in the next few years as prosperity grows in developing nations. And the world's emissions don't just come from cars. With MASSIVE growth in economic activity in China and India, their need for new emission-emitting power stations and other plants and factories will dwarf anything going on elsewhere.
You are simply repeating things you have read in some magazine.

Yes, Hybrids will go electric only at highway as well, although not for a long time. In fact, for most people, hybrids get the most mpg on the highway and not in town. Prius has an miller cycle engine which is 15% more efficient than comparable gasoline engine and together with electric engines and superior aerodynamics, it will get 50-60mpg on the highway all day long, something you cant do with 4cly Camry. Same will be true for 4cly Camry.

I dont care if you are opposed to the hybrids or dont like them. its cool. everyone has their own opinion. but at least get the facts straight :-).

and I dont know what is high speed for diesel - all of them do well above 130mph in medium sedans. Someone needs more than that? Diesel engine needs an turbo? Yes, most definetly. Diesels have pretty large turbos, you cant find non-turbo diesels in europe anymore (well you can in ultra cheap vans and cars).

V8 engines cost a lot more than V6 engine, and even spend more gas! How will you ever save money on V8 I really dont know... hahaha.

.

Yes, Hybrids will go electric only at highway as well, although not for a long time. .

This is true of Toyota / Lexus-designed hybrids and the Ford Escape ( actually borrowed Toyota technology ). It is NOT true of Honda IMA ( Integrated Motor Assist ) hybrid designs. Honda-type " series " hybrid designs, unlike Toyota " parallel " designs, CANNOT run off of the electric motor directly, either in the city or on the highway.......the electric motor simply assists the gas engine as needed and serves as the starter to start the gas engine up from rest when it shuts off at stops and the driver presses the gas pedal to get moving again.
Toyota hybrid systems, by comparison, can run anywhere on either the gas engine alone, the electric motor alone, or both as needed........and as the drivetrain computers are programmed. The electric motor, while it CAN and does run independent of the gas engine for economy, obviously cannot do so indefintely......it, of course, needs to have its battery pack recharged, so the gas engine cuts back in as needed....and to keep its oil temperature and coolant warm for low emissions.
In both systems, the electric motor, while coasting or braking, serves as a generator to recharge the battery pack, thus the term " regenerative braking ". The gas engine's alternator, of course, can also charge both the gas engine battery and the battery pack for the electric motor.

Buying a hybrid isnt JUST about saving money on gas. Do people constantly need reminding of this? The huge difference in emissions output between full gasoline engines and hybrid engines is quite striking.

Think about it: The Lexus RX400h and Toyota Prius are the "IT" cars to have in Hollywood and the rest of the "in style" world. Why? Not because they can save on gas (****, most major actors and actresses make more in a day than the average american does in a year) its because of the low emissions.
i thought that was what i said :uh:

I find myself having to explain ALL THE TIME to people who just immediately say the RX400h is a waste of money.... that it and the Prius serve two very different purproses. The Prius is slow as piss, and is meant to get a very high mpg figure to save fuel. The Lexus RX-h however, is providing you with the torque, feel, and acceleration of a V8 SUV with the fuel economy of a 4 or 6 cylinder car. Yea, you may not ever make that up in plain gas savings over the RX330.... but if you compare to the gas you'd save if you got the 400h over the ML500 or X5 4.4i.... anyone would see how much you'd be saving in gas. Anyow, i'm sure i'm just preaching to the choir here.

And oh yea, if I remember reading correctly, Toyota bought and chopped up 4 to 500 jags, bmw's, benzes, and caddy's when they were developing the "F1" project back in the 1980's.

And on a note about GM vehicles, i just got back from Florida today, i had an 05 Chevy Monte Carlo rental car. I have to say, GM has come a long way in 10 years. I'd never even think about buying the car, but the materials and fit and finish were much better than older GM vehicles (with exception of the steering wheel.... still has a very flimsy feel to it). The interior dash design actually wasn't that bad either. Overall, I'd actually say that I think the interior "feels" richer than a lot of the new Nissans sold today. GM still has far to go, but I can definitely see some improvement.

This is true of Toyota / Lexus-designed hybrids and the Ford Escape ( actually borrowed Toyota technology ). It is NOT true of Honda IMA ( Integrated Motor Assist ) hybrid designs. Honda-type " series " hybrid designs, unlike Toyota " parallel " designs, CANNOT run off of the electric motor directly, either in the city or on the highway.......the electric motor simply assists the gas engine as needed and serves as the starter to start the gas engine up from rest when it shuts off at stops and the driver presses the gas pedal to get moving again.
Toyota hybrid systems, by comparison, can run anywhere on either the gas engine alone, the electric motor alone, or both as needed........and as the drivetrain computers are programmed. The electric motor, while it CAN and does run independent of the gas engine for economy, obviously cannot do so indefintely......it, of course, needs to have its battery pack recharged, so the gas engine cuts back in as needed....and to keep its oil temperature and coolant warm for low emissions.
In both systems, the electric motor, while coasting or braking, serves as a generator to recharge the battery pack, thus the term " regenerative braking ". The gas engine's alternator, of course, can also charge both the gas engine battery and the battery pack for the electric motor.
yep, it is often confusing to the customers that there are different hybrids. Obviously, it is the same as with any other powertain - there are differences in systems, same as there are numerious different petrol engines which work differently (even more so for diesels).

most people also dont know that during normal driving, your petrol engine is constantly recharging your HSD hybrid battery, preparing it to go into full electric mode when needed. So it is not only when you brake that you recharge the battery.

Prius isnt really slow as piss, sure it is not as fast as my turbo mrs, but most cars are not. Passing acceleration is actually very good, and there are quite few brand new bmw's that would not be able to pass my prius around here :-). 50-80mph is pretty impressive, i am often taken back with the kick in the back. Amusing.

This is true of Toyota / Lexus-designed hybrids and the Ford Escape ( actually borrowed Toyota technology ). It is NOT true of Honda IMA ( Integrated Motor Assist ) hybrid designs. Honda-type " series " hybrid designs, unlike Toyota " parallel " designs, CANNOT run off of the electric motor directly, either in the city or on the highway.......the electric motor simply assists the gas engine as needed and serves as the starter to start the gas engine up from rest when it shuts off at stops and the driver presses the gas pedal to get moving again.
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This was true for the previous IMA system and also the one still used in the Accord. In the new Civic Hybrid though, the car and be propelled solely by the IMA system electric motor. Here is the quote from Honda about the IMA in the new Civic.

At steady speeds below 35 MPH on level roads and under light throttle, fuel injection can cease and the car can be propelled solely by the IMA system electric motor.

This was true for the previous IMA system and also the one still used in the Accord. In the new Civic Hybrid though, the car and be propelled solely by the IMA system electric motor. Here is the quote from Honda about the IMA in the new Civic.

You may or may not have a point here, CK. I carefully avoided going into this new 2006 / 2007 Honda system in my last post because, first, I don't really know that much about it ( yet ) , and, second, the descriptions I HAVE read about it do not all agree on whether the system can run on just the electric motor alone. Honda says it can. A couple of magazines that have actually road-tested the car say no, it cannot. From a practical point of view though, as long as the system functions well, gives good mileage and low emissions, and is reliable ( as Hondas usually are ) I don't think it makes a lot of difference.

( BTW, I reviewed a new Civic EX a couple of weeks ago but was not able to test-drive the new Civic Hybrid because of the short supply )

You may or may not have a point here, CK. I carefully avoided going into this new 2006 / 2007 Honda system in my last post because, first, I don't really know that much about it ( yet ) , and, second, the descriptions I HAVE read about it do not all agree on whether the system can run on just the electric motor alone. Honda says it can. A couple of magazines that have actually road-tested the car say no, it cannot. From a practical point of view though, as long as the system functions well, gives good mileage and low emissions, and is reliable ( as Hondas usually are ) I don't think it makes a lot of difference.

( BTW, I reviewed a new Civic EX a couple of weeks ago but was not able to test-drive the new Civic Hybrid because of the short supply )
it is still an mild hybrid, even though they made improvements. They use few tricks but electric only mode is almost impossible.

It was edmunds that compared the HSD to new Civic and HSD still got 15% mpg more and was 2 sec faster 0-60... So thats where the difference is.

Of course, new Civic is pretty nice car itself.

the fastest way for GM to improve is to sell itself to Toyota and let Toyota manage it.

and people continue to buy new caddys

Not as much as new Lexus vehicles :D
Saying that is like saying; 'people continue to buy new Nobles' or new Atom 2s. It means absolutely nothing.

Surely only when the gasoline engine isn't running. And that isn't the case with highway driving for example, so how striking is it really?



Because Hollywood and the "in style" world are more about 'feel good' things than doing anything significant.

If driving a hybrid makes you feel like you're saving the world, knock yourself out. I don't think it makes the SLIGHTEST difference. While a few hundred thousand or even millions of hybrids might get out there, we may end up with a BILLION more cars on the road in the next few years as prosperity grows in developing nations. And the world's emissions don't just come from cars. With MASSIVE growth in economic activity in China and India, their need for new emission-emitting power stations and other plants and factories will dwarf anything going on elsewhere.

Its emissions over time. And if you want to argue that full gas engines have the same emissions over any period of time (say one gas tank) then you're a moron.

My point wasnt about Hollywood being noble or any of that BS. My point was that they arent hard up for cash and dont give a rat's ass if they save gas money or not, because money is nothing to them. Its done for emissions. I'm not saying anyone feels like they're saving the world from the car; I dont care. Saving the world or not is outside the scope of this thread; which you've completely taken it out of.

I don't know where your argument came from. You attacked my point on some completely irrelevant basis; much akin to arguing if a color is blue or cyan. Now I remember why I stopped posting at clublexus. :rolleyes: You guys are a joke.

Now I remember why I stopped posting at clublexus. :rolleyes: You guys are a joke.

Well, just because you and bitkahuna can't agree on the role of hybrids doesn't mean this forum is a joke. People don't always agree with me either. But......show us a better general automotive forum than CAR CHAT, with more informed people, better mods, and a better administrator. Good luck........I haven't seen one yet. In fact, a lot of what I see and read in this forum....especially from 1SICKLEX, RON430, LexArazzo, Rominl, CK6speed, Jet864, bitkahuna, GS3Tek, 2000sc300, flipside909, Incendiary, and others ( including yourself ) beats some of what the auto press itself puts out.....and they are people who get PAID to test cars and write about them.

Its emissions over time. And if you want to argue that full gas engines have the same emissions over any period of time (say one gas tank) then you're a moron.

My point wasnt about Hollywood being noble or any of that BS. My point was that they arent hard up for cash and dont give a rat's ass if they save gas money or not, because money is nothing to them. Its done for emissions. I'm not saying anyone feels like they're saving the world from the car; I dont care. Saving the world or not is outside the scope of this thread; which you've completely taken it out of.

I don't know where your argument came from. You attacked my point on some completely irrelevant basis; much akin to arguing if a color is blue or cyan. Now I remember why I stopped posting at clublexus. :rolleyes: You guys are a joke.
now that you remember i guess we will see you later :D unless your going to call me names also :cry: your upset b/c someone questioned your statement, get real :uh:

Toyota Production System. They probably can't buy one of the factory robots and tear it down as easily but they need to do something quickly. Toyota factories are running at 115% capacity in the US and the domestics are between 70-80%. The Prius was the first two generations of hybrids for Toyota and the third was the RX400h/Highlander. Now Lexus will have the fourth gen hybrid GS450h in the showroom this Spring. GM makes progress by press release as Spwolf mentions. Detroit is a sad city as revealed during the Super Bowl. It is now only a vestige of an industrial giant. I'm not a Bush apologist but he is so right about educating the youth of America in Math and Science. Just like GM we became complacent and now are waking up like Rip Van Winkle and finding we are 20 years behind the times.

Rock

Toyota Production System. They probably can't buy one of the factory robots and tear it down as easily but they need to do something quickly. Toyota factories are running at 115% capacity in the US and the domestics are between 70-80%. The Prius was the first two generations of hybrids for Toyota and the third was the RX400h/Highlander. Now Lexus will have the fourth gen hybrid GS450h in the showroom this Spring. GM makes progress by press release as Spwolf mentions. Detroit is a sad city as revealed during the Super Bowl. It is now only a vestige of an industrial giant. I'm not a Bush apologist but he is so right about educating the youth of America in Math and Science. Just like GM we became complacent and now are waking up like Rip Van Winkle and finding we are 20 years behind the times.

Rock
hahhaa that would be kinda useless reverse engineering for them right now i guess ;) i mean, even if they can somehow do it, they know already they can't "reproduce" it ;)

Its emissions over time. And if you want to argue that full gas engines have the same emissions over any period of time (say one gas tank) then you're a moron.

Thank you for your input, :) I am aware that hybrids have lower emissions 'over time' than gas only vehicles.

My point wasnt about Hollywood being noble or any of that BS. My point was that they arent hard up for cash and dont give a rat's ass if they save gas money or not, because money is nothing to them. Its done for emissions. I'm not saying anyone feels like they're saving the world from the car; I dont care. Saving the world or not is outside the scope of this thread; which you've completely taken it out of.

But if someone who has the cash to buy anything ends up buying a vehicle for its low emissions , aren't they doing that to help save the world? Or to at least set an example (which I'm fine with - more power to 'em)

I don't know where your argument came from. You attacked my point on some completely irrelevant basis; much akin to arguing if a color is blue or cyan.

Well you said hybrids are the 'it' thing in Hollywood and I was commenting on why I felt that was so, so I don't think it was completely irrelevant, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Now I remember why I stopped posting at clublexus. :rolleyes: You guys are a joke.

Well, perhaps you need to lighten up. :)

They might be disecting the RX400H to help with design secrets on their new upcoming Buick Enclave.

I don't know about you guys but the Lucerne is pretty pittiful for the dollar, with a few exceptions in mind (magnaride is great). But this new Enclave looks like it could be a very solid competitor for the RX, at least assuming it comes out before the RX gets its next redesign.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?p=469183

I don't know about you guys but the Lucerne is pretty pittiful for the dollar, with a few exceptions in mind (magnaride is great). ]

No, it is not a very impressive car....especially with all the hype Bob Lutz is giving it. If you want, here was my take on it several months ago:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188162&highlight=review+lucerne+2006

No, it is not a very impressive car....especially with all the hype Bob Lutz is giving it. If you want, here was my take on it several months ago:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188162&highlight=review+lucerne+2006

Yeah... 3800 series II V6 in a 30-40k dollar car?? WTH were they thinking? Yeah, Northstar is OK but its acceleration #s still don't quite match the Avalon despite it costing a pretty penny more and wasting quite a bit more fuel (plus northstars aren't exactly known for running expense-free for any extended period of time).

It sits on the chassis from the long ago discontinued 1995 Olds Aurora, and only has a 4-speed auto.

Interior is pretty bland, too.

I do like the outside, though, and I love GM's magnaride suspension though it seems to me it's a goldmine that hasn't been taken advantage of nearly enough (infinitely/instaltly variable suspension).

Whether Toyota makes a lot or a little or no money from hybrids, and however much hybrids actually benefit mankind in terms of cleaner air and lower fuel consumption, there are major dividends for being the company that pioneers research and development of hybrid powertrains. Exhibit one is the pile of patents that Toyota keeps building up. Ford, Nissan, Porsche, and maybe others, are having to pay to use Toyota technology. Have you got that check in the mail yet, mein Herr?