Hello all,

I know this is not a BMW board, but I'm sure just like me a lot of lexus members here also have an interest in bimmers. As I will soon have a very prominet job or make more money, I've been thinking of what car will I get to display whatever ounce of success I'd like to display in a few months. My choices have been strickly between BMW and Lexus. At first it was going to be the 3, then once it came out the design turned me off. The IS came and lifted my spirit, but I have come to realize a convertible coupe is what I really want (nonthing like having your top down in the summer time. Absolutely nothing like it.) So I checked out the SC430, wonderful interior but I hate 2 seaters with a passion. Although it has 2 seats in the back, but we all know no real humans can fit back there and enjoy the ride at the same time. It got Xed out.

So, when I heared BMW would come out with a convertible hardtop I thought maybe this might be it, but after looking at these spie pictures (http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm?spyphotoid=6060102.001/country/gcf) All I want to say is why is the 3 so badly styled compared to the 5, 6 and 7 series? I guess now that leaves the IS convertible. If it's coming more than a year from now, I don't know if I can wait that long. If that's the case I may be forced into an SC430 and keep my little honda when I need to cater to 4 people or so. I don't want to buy 2 nice cars. Just one nice ride.

Is there any spie shots of the IS coupe floating around at all?

Also, rumor has it that the next SC430 will have proper rear seats. How truthful is it and will it be the 07 or 08 model? And Lexus if you are reading this at all, for the love of God, fix the SC's only weakness; it's rear end.

Thanks in advance for all the replies!

Hello all,

I know this is not a BMW board, but I'm sure just like me a lot of lexus members here also have an interest in bimmers. As I will soon have a very prominet job or make more money, I've been thinking of what car will I get to display whatever ounce of success I'd like to display in a few months. My choices have been strickly between BMW and Lexus. At first it was going to be the 3, then once it came out the design turned me off. The IS came and lifted my spirit, but I have come to realize a convertible coupe is what I really want (nonthing like having your top down in the summer time. Absolutely nothing like it.) So I checked out the SC430, wonderful interior but I hate 2 seaters with a passion. Although it has 2 seats in the back, but we all know no real humans can fit back there and enjoy the ride at the same time. It got Xed out.

So, when I heared BMW would come out with a convertible hardtop I thought maybe this might be it, but after looking at these spie pictures (http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm?spyphotoid=6060102.001/country/gcf) All I want to say is why is the 3 so badly styled compared to the 5, 6 and 7 series? I guess now that leaves the IS convertible. If it's coming more than a year from now, I don't know if I can wait that long. If that's the case I may be forced into an SC430 and keep my little honda when I need to cater to 4 people or so. I don't want to buy 2 nice cars. Just one nice ride.

Is there any spie shots of the IS coupe floating around at all?

Also, rumor has it that the next SC430 will have proper rear seats. How truthful is it and will it be the 07 or 08 model? And Lexus if you are reading this at all, for the love of God, fix the SC's only weakness; it's rear end.

Thanks in advance for all the replies!

Nice post.
1. No true IS coupe shots. The ones in the mags and floating on the internet all originated from Photoshops from members here, lol
2. No real news on the next gen SC. The only thing I've heard is it will be GS based. As for model replacement, not sure at all.

The IS350 CS will be a year or less from now so I think it's worth the wait. It'll have more usable back seats with more legroom at the back than the SC430, but my guess is that the rear seats will still not be too comfortable to sit in for any lengthy period of time except for kids/young teens.

The SC430 just got a facelift last fall & my guess is it will last til the 08 model year at least.

Hello all,


Is there any spie shots of the IS coupe floating around at all?

!

How about this? I don't think this is one of the Photoshops ones that 1SICK was referring to.

http://www.japanesecarfans.com/spyphotos/6051205.001/6051205.001.Mini6L.jpg

Hello all,

I know this is not a BMW board, but I'm sure just like me a lot of lexus members here also have an interest in bimmers. As I will soon have a very prominet job or make more money, I've been thinking of what car will I get to display whatever ounce of success I'd like to display in a few months. My choices have been strickly between BMW and Lexus. At first it was going to be the 3, then once it came out the design turned me off. The IS came and lifted my spirit, but I have come to realize a convertible coupe is what I really want (nonthing like having your top down in the summer time. Absolutely nothing like it.) So I checked out the SC430, wonderful interior but I hate 2 seaters with a passion. Although it has 2 seats in the back, but we all know no real humans can fit back there and enjoy the ride at the same time. It got Xed out.

So, when I heared BMW would come out with a convertible hardtop I thought maybe this might be it, but after looking at these spie pictures (http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm?spyphotoid=6060102.001/country/gcf) All I want to say is why is the 3 so badly styled compared to the 5, 6 and 7 series? I guess now that leaves the IS convertible. If it's coming more than a year from now, I don't know if I can wait that long. If that's the case I may be forced into an SC430 and keep my little honda when I need to cater to 4 people or so. I don't want to buy 2 nice cars. Just one nice ride.

Is there any spie shots of the IS coupe floating around at all?

Also, rumor has it that the next SC430 will have proper rear seats. How truthful is it and will it be the 07 or 08 model? And Lexus if you are reading this at all, for the love of God, fix the SC's only weakness; it's rear end.

Thanks in advance for all the replies!

The ultimate convertible has 2 wheels, not four :D

Unconfirmed info states that the IS coupe and convertible will be available by Jan 2007. That's only 10 months away. Also, there is no confirmed info if the SC will be discontinued or revived in the future.

I'd wait. You have plenty of time to save up for the convertible, so you're down payment will be significant.

P.S. By the way, the ultimate convertible does come with only two wheels... :D

Unconfirmed info states that the IS coupe and convertible will be available by Jan 2007. That's only 10 months away. Also, there is no confirmed info if the SC will be discontinued or revived in the future.

I'd wait. You have plenty of time to save up for the convertible, so you're down payment will be significant.

P.S. By the way, the ultimate convertible does come with only two wheels... :D


Nice garage :thumbup:

Nice garage :thumbup:
Thanks. Your's too. Isn't the 2008 R1 coming out with 189 hp?

umm, actually, what's your budget? that will help. if budget is no issue, i would just choose from ls460 (this fall), sc430, 7 series, or the 6 series. that's how you show your status.

i have to be honest, driving 3 series or IS, that's not going to really show much. they are nice cars, and for sure you need some money to get them. but they are a dime a donzen out there.

i am NOT trying to offend anyone, i used to have is300

LOL, I'm having a similar problem.

A BMW E60 5-series suits me way better than the Lexus GS does. But Lexus quality, reliaiblity, and attention to detail suits me much better than BMW's lack thereof does. I've been surfing the BMW forums and I found that BMW engines are plagued with VANOS issues. Poorly designed oil seals in the vanos actuator piston can cause erratic action of the valve timing causing powerband issues, high fuel consumption, degraded emissions, and best of all cold start / stalling issues. $1000 to fix, and the problem can recur yearly. Lovely. That's just icing on the cake to go along with all of the other i-drive and electrical issues (window regulators, door seals, etc). Will have to go sit in a GS again, and give the Infiniti M a 2nd look after this.

LOL, I'm having a similar problem.

A BMW E60 5-series suits me way better than the Lexus GS does. But Lexus quality, reliaiblity, and attention to detail suits me much better than BMW's lack thereof does. I've been surfing the BMW forums and I found that BMW engines are plagued with VANOS issues. Poorly designed oil seals in the vanos actuator piston can cause erratic action of the valve timing causing powerband issues, high fuel consumption, degraded emissions, and best of all cold start / stalling issues. $1000 to fix, and the problem can recur yearly. Lovely. That's just icing on the cake to go along with all of the other i-drive and electrical issues (window regulators, door seals, etc). Will have to go sit in a GS again, and give the Infiniti M a 2nd look after this.

Steve, this is going to come off as a BMW guy sticking up for his brand (ok, it is!), but seriously, I have not heard much about VANOS issues on the e60. Worse, I can't imagine many people paying for these fixes as the car has only been out two years.

The car is not as reliable as the GS - that's for sure. But the 3rd gen GS certainly has had its share of problems as well.

Thank you for all the replies eveyone.


umm, actually, what's your budget? that will help. if budget is no issue, i would just choose from ls460 (this fall), sc430, 7 series, or the 6 series. that's how you show your status.

i have to be honest, driving 3 series or IS, that's not going to really show much. they are nice cars, and for sure you need some money to get them. but they are a dime a donzen out there.

i am NOT trying to offend anyone, i used to have is300


I do agree, there is no real status with 3 and IS. That is why I really wanted SC430. But I simply got to have 2 decent rear seats. My 97 convertible 328i BMW doesn't have a very spacious rear, but I could at leat get 2 friends in the back with no problem. The SC however that's not possible at all. That's my only issue. Like I said, maybe I'll just have 2 cars; a hoopty for the crowd :sad: and the SC for showoff moments. :eek2: :cool:

Thank you for all the replies eveyone.

I do agree, there is no real status with 3 and IS. That is why I really wanted SC430. But I simply got to have 2 decent rear seats. My 97 convertible 328i BMW doesn't have a very spacious rear, but I could at leat get 2 friends in the back with no problem. The SC however that's not possible at all. That's my only issue. Like I said, maybe I'll just have 2 cars; a hoopty for the crowd :sad: and the SC for showoff moments. :eek2: :cool:
I dunno, I think it depends on how old you are too. A BMW 3-series or similar car has been the "I've arrived" car for 20-somethings for a while now. But I'm not that impressed if the guy driving it is 40. a 30-yr-old in an M5 is impressive. A 65-yr-old in a 7-series, not that impressive. Does that make sense?

And, an 18-yr-old in a Bentley Continental GT (which I saw a couple weeks ago) is not impressive, because his daddy obviously bought it for him! :)

Thank you for all the replies eveyone.





I do agree, there is no real status with 3 and IS. That is why I really wanted SC430. But I simply got to have 2 decent rear seats. My 97 convertible 328i BMW doesn't have a very spacious rear, but I could at leat get 2 friends in the back with no problem. The SC however that's not possible at all. That's my only issue. Like I said, maybe I'll just have 2 cars; a hoopty for the crowd :sad: and the SC for showoff moments. :eek2: :cool:
well you can't really compare the sc430 to the 3 series convertible. the 3 convertible is sitll designed to have 4 people, but the sc430 is only 2 seaters. the rear seats are only there for insurance purposes imho. although my wife can fit in the rear no problem, it's still no fun. i never plan to have more than 3 people in the sc430 anyway

and if you wanna compare, the sc430 should be compared to the 6 series size wise (though still different), and the rear seats of 6 is no fun too. maybe a tad better, but still :)

Steve, this is going to come off as a BMW guy sticking up for his brand (ok, it is!), but seriously, I have not heard much about VANOS issues on the e60. Worse, I can't imagine many people paying for these fixes as the car has only been out two years.

The car is not as reliable as the GS - that's for sure. But the 3rd gen GS certainly has had its share of problems as well.It's just a question of how well an E60 would suit our needs beyond that of other cars, how much we would truly enjoy ownership of the car, and if that would be enough to offset the frustration from whatever problems we have to deal with that we wouldn't have otherwise in say a Japanese vehicle. I think we'll probably give it a shot when we're ready in a year or two, but I do need to do my research on the BMW boards and lower my expectations a bit. I don't like surprises. ;)

nose and chin up in the air.

Status status status!!!

How about you get a car youll enjoy driving and not worry so much what the guy next to you thinks?

:p :D

nose and chin up in the air.

Status status status!!!

How about you get a car youll enjoy driving and not worry so much what the guy next to you thinks?

:p :D

BRAVO! Excellent post.

Agree with Inabj2.

A person who needs a car to show his "status" really need to get some self esteem. A lot of people got a 7 or 8 year car loan to get themselves into a "premium brand" vehicle, living in a junk place and on cup noodles on a daily basis is just laughable to me.

I don't look down on 18-yr old kid driving a Bentley. I just blame my father for not working harder so I could have been in the same shoes of that kid. :p

IM 22.. I rent a house with 2 friends and roomates.

And my inspirational/motivational drive is going around the neighborhood looking at the big million dollar+ homes, helps me to be more motivated at work.

And I notice ... some of these people have much crappier cars then I do.. but look at their houses!

what make you assume so quickly that people buying these cars because of its status?

It's a C-class for godsake.... Status does not start there...

I would never get my kid a Bentley, no matter how rich I was. They have to grow up feeling like they need to earn the things they want. Otherwise they won't be motivated to do anything, like the thousands of trust-fund babies here in NYC. I personally don't think I would enjoy my Lexus as much if it wasn't my reward to myself for years of hard work in school and at my job... But maybe that is just me.

If you can just enjoy your ride without wondering AT ALL what the next guy over thinks of you, bravo to you. I hope you only buy clothes at K-Mart, and get your hair cut at an $8 barber. But I don't think you need to accuse people of low self-esteem just because they sometimes think about the image they are projecting. Especially for people who use their car for business, image can be very important.

To the OP - I guess it depends how old you are. I think most people in their 30's and up would not view 3-series and others in its class as status cars. But both the 3 and IS are great cars, and you'll have fun with either one. You could also look at an M3 or S4 for serious fun with a decent back seat, in a slightly higher price bracket. :)

Thanks. Your's too. Isn't the 2008 R1 coming out with 189 hp?

When the tach hits 10K I'm already hanging on for dear life. One of my riding buddies has an 05 gixxer 1000 and we frequently swap, the K5 is at a totally different level, I couldn't imagine any more power. The acceleration of a modern liter supersport bike is freakish, they'll run 9s in the quarter and will easily hang with a 800hp car up until ~150mph.

With that being said, my favorite bike is still the Viffer. Comfortable enough for 400 mile days, sporty enough to drag pegs through twisties, and the V4 growl is intoxicating :thumbup:

Because seems that some people are almost... well theyre noting that the entry level luxury cars do not have enough status.

Some people consider the brand themselves to be ... associated with something only succesful individuals drive.

I dunno, the guy next to me can think that if my soon to be running 240sx is a pos. That can suit him just fine.. to me its one of my street/track car, same can be said about my obsolete lexus.

As I will soon have a very prominet job or make more money

Is that one or the other? ;)

I've been thinking of what car will I get to display whatever ounce of success I'd like to display in a few months.

Right well that's the first problem. If you buy a car to 'display your success' the only friends you'll have will be equally shallow. Buy a car YOU LIKE.

I have come to realize a convertible coupe is what I really want (nonthing like having your top down in the summer time. Absolutely nothing like it.) So I checked out the SC430, wonderful interior but I hate 2 seaters with a passion. Although it has 2 seats in the back, but we all know no real humans can fit back there and enjoy the ride at the same time. It got Xed out.

OK, almost all convertible coupes have almost useless back seats so you need to decide which is more important, 4 usable seats, or a convertible. Exceptions might be a CLK convertible or the Volve C70 (don't look down on it, it's pretty nice). I don't know about a convertible 650i but that's a PILE of money.

Is there any spie shots of the IS coupe floating around at all?

The SEDAN has cramped back seats, so a coupe, let alone convertible is likely to be less comfortable in the back.

what make you assume so quickly that people buying these cars because of its status?

It's a C-class for godsake.... Status does not start there...
I agree, but there are people who still think any Benz is a status symbol .

LOL, I'm having a similar problem.

A BMW E60 5-series suits me way better than the Lexus GS does. But Lexus quality, reliaiblity, and attention to detail suits me much better than BMW's lack thereof does. I've been surfing the BMW forums and I found that BMW engines are plagued with VANOS issues. Poorly designed oil seals in the vanos actuator piston can cause erratic action of the valve timing causing powerband issues, high fuel consumption, degraded emissions, and best of all cold start / stalling issues. $1000 to fix, and the problem can recur yearly. Lovely. That's just icing on the cake to go along with all of the other i-drive and electrical issues (window regulators, door seals, etc). Will have to go sit in a GS again, and give the Infiniti M a 2nd look after this.

1. what vanos issue? There have been one or two cases that the early 545i v8 had minor issues with valvetronics. The early vanos issue from 6 years ago was minor and has been fixed.

2. Door seals issue on the early E60 has also been fixed since 05. Window regulator i have yet to seen a big issue on the e60.net.

3. I-drive issue has also been resolved since late 04.

The E60 are quiet bullet proof right now.

1. what vanos issue? There have been one or two cases that the early 545i v8 had minor issues with valvetronics. The early vanos issue from 6 years ago was minor and has been fixed.

2. Door seals issue on the early E60 has also been fixed since 05. Window regulator i have yet to seen a big issue on the e60.net.

3. I-drive issue has also been resolved since late 04.

The E60 are quiet bullet proof right now.

Good post. People like to have long memories on brands they don't like, and short memories on ones they do. ;)

1. what vanos issue? There have been one or two cases that the early 545i v8 had minor issues with valvetronics. The early vanos issue from 6 years ago was minor and has been fixed. Yeah that's why people are still having problems and some tech heads on roadfly just went public with their findings after BMW was not responsive.

roadfly.org:6-cyl double vanos problem assessment - FEB 2006 (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e39/7494631-1.html) :thumbdn:

Cliffs: The VANOS piston oil seals do not hold up, bleed off pressure, and results in erratic or non-functional VANOS operation, and on certain engines cold start and stalling issues also. Can also result in degraded powerband, poor mileage, and poorer emissions also since the engines use internal EGR via double VANOS instead of external EGR on a lot of other cars. Those are not E60's, but designs and technology all carries forward.

2. Door seals issue on the early E60 has also been fixed since 05. Window regulator i have yet to seen a big issue on the e60.net.They're also new cars. How do you know they won't develop the same problems. Are the window regulators the same problematic designs as older BMWs? If so they'll probably have the same problems.

3. I-drive issue has also been resolved since late 04.yeah that explains why just the other day I saw on a BMW site a thread about a lot of E60 owners waiting for a software update to fix false alarms on high current drain, and wondering if they're going to walk out to their cars and have a flat battery or not, from 2005/2006.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103405

Here's another one: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132416

Nice, brand new 525 with engine problems and stalling. Maybe that guy had an issue with the VANOS getting stuck due poorly designed seals.


The E60 are quiet bullet proof right now.Absurd statement and impossible to backup considering the cars are brand new, there is a lot of unproven hardware in it (like the durability of the magnesium alloy blocks), they've already had a fair number of issues, and that 2 yrs just isn't a very good timeframe to be judging long-term reliability and whether or not the car is "bulletproof". Maybe it's a relative term, but my definition of bulletproof is most Toyotas and Lexus. Average to below average reliability on the E60's as per Consumer Reports is NOT bulletproof.

You have zero credibility as far as I'm concerned, and you're also the same chap that told me that an N52 could be stretched to 3.5L via a 90 mm bore with "no probems", nevermind the fact that the internal dimensions of the engine do not allow that.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1731672&postcount=60

You clearly do not do your homework on things, and speak of which you simply do not know. BTW as it stands right now I'm still planning on giving the E60 a try, but it certainly won't be on your advice. :)

The 5 series is a great car but no where near bullet proof. It WINS sports sedan comparos, it loses in reliablity ones. That is a fact. The 5 hasn't been recommended in CR or been near best in class for reliablity since I can remember,

You don't buy BMWs to be reliable.

The 5-series is now a Consumer Reports recommended choice for those who are interested.

The 5 series is a great car but no where near bullet proof. It WINS sports sedan comparos, it loses in reliablity ones. That is a fact.
I think the reliability factor went down the tube, not with the engine, but with that damn iDrive!!!

You don't buy BMWs to be reliable.

You speak the truth.. :)

Yeah that's why people are still having problems and some tech heads on roadfly just went public with their findings after BMW was not responsive.

roadfly.org:6-cyl double vanos problem assessment - FEB 2006 (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e39/7494631-1.html) :thumbdn:



Someone needs to understand how to read.

"The problem occurs on M52TU engine cars, 3 & 5 series 6-cylinder 1999-2000. It presents when the car is cold, ~ < 55° Fahrenheit, " Taken from the post above.

As i have stated earlier. BMW had issues with Vanos in us, but that issues was resolved 6 years ago as I have stated earlier.

All the problems on the roadfly, was dealing with 1st and 2nd year of single vanos E39/E46, i believe the same issue also occured on the V8 powered car at same model year.

Vanos has been replaced by valvetronics and are different in their design and application.

So your information is wrong and outdated.

You need to take a reading class. The vanos issue on both their car was fixed 6 years ago. The poster errorneously added M54 engine into mix as BMW upgraded vanos in 01 when M54 was introduced. Which is totally wrong and pointless.

If you want to talk about none responsive. It's not like Toyota/Lexus have been great either. Toyota had problem with sludge issues on the v6 in late 90's to early 00. Did toyota ever issue a recall on that problem? NO.

When comes down to it. Both of their cars are way out of warranty. Simple as that.

If you want to be critical of BMW, then do the same with toyota. Why not stand up and challenge troyota/lexus to recall all of their V6 with engine sludge issue.




yeah that explains why just the other day I saw on a BMW site a thread about a lot of E60 owners waiting for a software update to fix false alarms on high current drain, and wondering if they're going to walk out to their cars and have a flat battery or not, from 2005/2006.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103405




Again, if you bothered to learn to read, the issue again has been resolved. This was not related to I-drive which was resolved in late 04. Again i fail to see where my comment was wrong?

The issue had to do with DME software when BMW phased in new engine in march 05. And issues were fixed. I don't expect BＭW to get things right the 1st time especially with new valvetronics engine. Consider that this issue were closed within 6 months, it is no factor either.


Here's another one: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132416

Nice, brand new 525 with engine problems and stalling. Maybe that guy had an issue with the VANOS getting stuck due poorly designed seals.


The problem i have with your post is your simple lack of correct information.

1. That 06 525i does not use vanos, its actually the new N52 engine with valvetronic (3.0L). Hence your comment on vanos does not apply here. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to go ahead and do any kind of research.

Also, you are making a generalization based on one car. So that means the N52 has big inherent issue?

I just did a quick search and document quiet a bit of issue on this board with new IS and GS. So based on your reasoning, Lexus quality must be in pits as well.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198954
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201957


Again, using your logic. Lexus quality must be down the toilet. OMG. We have excessive gas in the oil. hmmmmm....................


You have zero credibility as far as I'm concerned, and you're also the same chap that told me that an N52 could be stretched to 3.5L via a 90 mm bore with "no probems", nevermind the fact that the internal dimensions of the engine do not allow that.


Look at your own post. I have already provide all the information needed on this.

YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL EXCEPT LACK OF RESEARCH.

BTW, i am waiting to see how double vanos on the M52 was applied on the valvetronci N52.



You clearly do not do your homework on things, and speak of which you simply do not know. BTW as it stands right now I'm still planning on giving the E60 a try, but it certainly won't be on your advice. :)

Like i said, all of your information has been proven wrong.

1. I-drive issues was resolved in late 04.
2. The issue you mentioned has to do with DME programming when BMW introduced N52 in march 05, and resolved in 9/05.
3. Vanos issue based on your own so called evidence, came back and slap you in the face. Since M52 TU Vanos design is quiet different from M54 double vanos introduced in 01. Which i already told you that BMW had issues with Vanos 6 years ago. (year 2000). Damn, i just hit on that directly.

The single vanos debuted in US in 1999 and lasted until 2000 models years. The double vanos came on as 01 in US with introduction of M54, when M52 went through another stroke that see its displacement went to 3.0L. The S54 which is also anther L6 was stretched in mid 90 to 3.2L. I already gave you all history on the L6 engine. BMW can stretch both stroke and bore on the N52. It's not a difficult task.

Your credibility just went down the toiler. Sir.

Don't talk to me about BMW history until you do homework on it.

You have gotten nothing right thus far. SIR.

yeah ok sure... :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :thumbdn:

Someone needs to understand how to read.

"The problem occurs on M52TU engine cars, 3 & 5 series 6-cylinder 1999-2000. It presents when the car is cold, ~ < 55° Fahrenheit, " Taken from the post above.

As i have stated earlier. BMW had issues with Vanos in us, but that issues was resolved 6 years ago as I have stated earlier.

All the problems on the roadfly, was dealing with 1st and 2nd year of single vanos E39/E46, i believe the same issue also occured on the V8 powered car at same model year.If the issues were "resolved" 6 years ago then could you please explain to me why people are still having problems with them TODAY in 2006? Clearly they were NOT resolved, and people with cars as new as 2003 are having the problems. That is not "SIX YEARS AGO". For all I know the newer models will develop the same problems but just aren't old enough yet.


Vanos has been replaced by valvetronics and are different in their design and application.

So your information is wrong and outdated.If you had even the slightest friggin clue about what you were talking about, or how an engine works, you would know that Double VANOS is still alive and well because Valvetronic works on top of that. Here it is straight off of BMWUSA.com.

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/530iSedan/features.htm

Performance and Efficiency
3.0-liter dual overhead cam (DOHC), 24-valve inline 255-horsepower 6-cylinder engine with composite magnesium/aluminum engine block, Valvetronic system, 3-stage air intake manifold, and double-VANOS steplessly variable valve timing

Direct ignition system with knock control

Electronically controlled engine cooling (map cooling)

6-speed manual transmissionNice try...


You need to take a reading class. The vanos issue on both their car was fixed 6 years ago. The poster errorneously added M54 engine into mix as BMW upgraded vanos in 01 when M54 was introduced. Which is totally wrong and pointless.Oh ok, so those guys who did a complete tear down analysis and root causing of the problem who were in direct contact with BMW who said they were "impressed" with their work are wrong, and you're right. Ok. Not.


If you want to talk about none responsive. It's not like Toyota/Lexus have been great either. Toyota had problem with sludge issues on the v6 in late 90's to early 00. Did toyota ever issue a recall on that problem? NO.

When comes down to it. Both of their cars are way out of warranty. Simple as that.

If you want to be critical of BMW, then do the same with toyota. Why not stand up and challenge troyota/lexus to recall all of their V6 with engine sludge issue.
What in THE HELL are you talking about? Non-responsive? Toyota extended the warranty on all of their sludge affected engines and people got letters in the mail for it. I believe they extended the engine warranty to 7yrs/100k miles for sludge issues. Why would they recall it? there's no safety issue. And it was only on an extremely small percentage of engines, and a lot of it could probably be tracked to non-prompt maintenance.

So where are the BMW warranty extensions for VANOS and all sorts of other issues? Nada...



Again, if you bothered to learn to read, the issue again has been resolved. This was not related to I-drive which was resolved in late 04. Again i fail to see where my comment was wrong?

The issue had to do with DME software when BMW phased in new engine in march 05. And issues were fixed. I don't expect BＭW to get things right the 1st time especially with new valvetronics engine. Consider that this issue were closed within 6 months, it is no factor either.Yeah, all issues are resolved and closed. That explains why if you open up consumer reports and look at the electronics column of any BMW in the reliability sections you see solid strings of "much worse than average". The cars have issues new, and continue to have issues throughout their lives.

BTW, when you buy a car with a new engine from Toyota or Honda you're pretty well assured that you're going to get something solid that isn't going to blow up in your face down the road because both of these companies actually have top notch quality control unlike BMW. Remember those S54 engines with bad crank main bearings? That was cool. Most of those should have been covered under warranty though. My personal favorite is the E39 "expendable cooling system" that needs to be replaced (all of it) every 60k as "preventative" maintenance because the plastic parts just don't hold up. I understand why they do it. They use light parts to keep weight off the front end which helps them achieve their 50:50 balance, but it comes at the expense of reliability. Are their warranty extensions on the cooling system? haha my buddy has a 98 540i 6spd and he had to replace all of his and it cost him a pretty penny. he wasn't too happy.



The problem i have with your post is your simple lack of correct information.

1. That 06 525i does not use vanos, its actually the new N52 engine with valvetronic (3.0L). Hence your comment on vanos does not apply here. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to go ahead and do any kind of research.My problem with your posts is the inability to get even a single goddamn thing right, and not being intelligent enough to even distinguish what is correct and what is complete, total, utter, BS! So the 06 525i does not use VANOS? Okay...

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/525iSedan/features.htm

Performance and Efficiency
3.0-liter dual overhead cam (DOHC), 24-valve inline 215-horsepower 6-cylinder engine with composite magnesium/aluminum engine block, Valvetronic system, 1-stage air intake manifold, and Double-VANOS steplessly variable valve timing

Right, it doesn't use VANOS. I need to do my research better so that I can get correct information. I'm getting my information directly from BMWUSA.com. Where the hell are you getting yours from???



Also, you are making a generalization based on one car. So that means the N52 has big inherent issue?

I just did a quick search and document quiet a bit of issue on this board with new IS and GS. So based on your reasoning, Lexus quality must be in pits as well.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198954
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201957


Again, using your logic. Lexus quality must be down the toilet. OMG. We have excessive gas in the oil. hmmmmm....................Please refer to JDPA and Consumer Reports data.



Look at your own post. I have already provide all the information needed on this.AND IT IS WRONG PERIOD.

Please explain to me how you can get an N52 to 3.5L with a 90 mm bore when the bore spacing is only 91 mm which would leave just a 1mm cylinder wall. Please explain this or just stop posting.

YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL EXCEPT LACK OF RESEARCH.yeah, uh-huh....

BTW, i am waiting to see how double vanos on the M52 was applied on the valvetronci N52.Why don't you learn how an engine works and then maybe you would understand.

Double VANOS: steplessly variable valve TIMING
Valvetronic: steplessly variable valve LIFT for "throttle free load control"

The two work together. They're both there. You are wrong. Period.



Like i said, all of your information has been proven wrong.

Your credibility just went down the toiler. Sir.

Don't talk to me about BMW history until you do homework on it.

You have gotten nothing right thus far. SIR.Yeah ok, you just go ahead and keep thinking that. :) I refuse to waste another second of my time reading or replying to one of your highly idiotic posts. I mean, the information is right on BMWUSA.com. I am going to link your post to some of my buddies, we're all going to have a good laugh, and the joke is going to be all on you.

*ignore*

(you are far worse than even a lot of Honduh guys and believe me, that's pretty god damn bad. you have to be one of the biggest bmw apologist/fanboy types out there to dish out crap like this. to the person that PMed me about the E60 with RATIONAL thought, thanks. I just haven't had time to get back to you yet but will, and you know who you are )

yeah ok sure... :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :thumbdn:

If the issues were "resolved" 6 years ago then could you please explain to me why people are still having problems with them TODAY in 2006? Clearly they were NOT resolved, and people with cars as new as 2003 are having the problems. That is not "SIX YEARS AGO". For all I know the newer models will develop the same problems but just aren't old enough yet.


yes, we all know that you are a BMW master tech.

Get real.

Again, you are stating that you know that newer model will develop the same problem. It is you that know what will happen. Perhaps BMW should higher you as engineer.

You said there was issue with 03?

Here is the post from the original poster on the same subject.
"like why do 01+ i6 cars not exhibit vanos cold engine symptoms?"
http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e39/7494640-1.html

hmm............

Again, how many time do you want to keep on embarrassing yourself.




If you had even the slightest friggin clue about what you were talking about, or how an engine works, you would know that Double VANOS is still alive and well because Valvetronic works on top of that. Here it is straight off of BMWUSA.com.

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/530iSedan/features.htm

Nice try...


Double vanos is alive because it is variable valve timing, but not in the same form as the issues from the M54. Valvetronic builds on top of that and its part of same system. The design has changed since the M52 and M54 era. Hence should never be confused as such.

You on the other hand, insist that the design are identical, in which its not. You are basing your conclusion on your own imagination, when the original poster already stated that they can't reproduce the issue on the +01 cars.


Oh ok, so those guys who did a complete tear down analysis and root causing of the problem who were in direct contact with BMW who said they were "impressed" with their work are wrong, and you're right. Ok. Not.


Yes, compare to someone that only read the information they want to here instead of all post. I think i was able to comprehend more than you did.

Again, read the original poster's comment on 2/22/06, attached above. THANK YOU!!!



What in THE HELL are you talking about? Non-responsive? Toyota extended the warranty on all of their sludge affected engines and people got letters in the mail for it. I believe they extended the engine warranty to 7yrs/100k miles for sludge issues. Why would they recall it? there's no safety issue. And it was only on an extremely small percentage of engines, and a lot of it could probably be tracked to non-prompt maintenance.

Responsive?

hmm, do you want to do a search on the oil sludge problem.

Toyota fought with owners to death on this issue and only reluctantly issued extension without admitting any error. In addition, that extention only applied to 1997 to 2001 vehicle. In which, we all know that the issue also appeared on earlier V6 and we have cases on car as late as 03 with sludge issue.

BTW, the extension was for 8 years unlimited miles. BUT- read the damn fine print. You have to produce all oil change record since day one you own the car.

hmm................ very responsive. Toyota has never accepted fault on this and played this as a favor to consumer.

This is what really happened. Again, pertty much identical to what BMW has on hand with this two 99-00 L6 single vanos cars.



So where are the BMW warranty extensions for VANOS and all sorts of other issues? Nada...


Again, it will take time for BMW to respond on this. And like toyota, unless this thing gets out of hand, BMW will probably do nothing.

Toyota is not a saint as you made it out to be. Toyota was pressured into extension not as good will. These two guys are at beginning of their fight that thousands of toyota owners went through with the sludge case.

The problem with your comment is you simply lacked the knowledge behind the fight that toyota/lexus owners went through to get that warranty extension.

WHERE IS TOYOTA'S RECALL??? GUESS WHAT IT DOES NOT EXIST. Toyota knows that with close to 2 million engines out there, if it issues a recall the cost would be extremely high. Hence it alongs with 4 other company that had similar issue are fighting this to death and will not issue a recall.

So why are you blaming BMW for resisting, when Toyota just wen through the same with their V6?

Again biased post.


Yeah, all issues are resolved and closed. That explains why if you open up consumer reports and look at the electronics column of any BMW in the reliability sections you see solid strings of "much worse than average". The cars have issues new, and continue to have issues throughout their lives.

Consumer report based data on the vehicle's past performance. E60 had a lot of i-drive issues in 2004. Hence it is being dragged down as result of such performance.

But it is not reflective of current situation as nearly all issues with i-drive has been resolved. So your point still provide no counter point to my comment earlier.



BTW, when you buy a car with a new engine from Toyota or Honda you're pretty well assured that you're going to get something solid that isn't going to blow up in your face down the road because both of these companies actually have top notch quality control unlike BMW. Remember those S54 engines with bad crank main bearings? That was cool. Most of those should have been covered under warranty though. My personal favorite is the E39 "expendable cooling system" that needs to be replaced (all of it) every 60k as "preventative" maintenance because the plastic parts just don't hold up. I understand why they do it. They use light parts to keep weight off the front end which helps them achieve their 50:50 balance, but it comes at the expense of reliability. Are their warranty extensions on the cooling system? haha my buddy has a 98 540i 6spd and he had to replace all of his and it cost him a pretty penny. he wasn't too happy.

Again, you as a consumer have to know what you want. There are going to be trade off when you want performance over long term reliability. Because the issue you mentioned above is not a quality issue but a design decision made by the company to please its customers.

E39 has a lot of parts that were designed for performance in mind over logevity. The other big example is the aluminum control arm that is prone to cracking after long period of use. Does this mean BMW quality sucks? No, its a design deicsion that BMW made. So i don't have a problem with that because going in, i already know that this is going to be a problem. Just as I already know that the S85 in my M5 will not last past 100k. You as a consumer has to do your homework and understand what you are getting into.

As far as S54 bearing issue, that was isolated to production issues and has been resolved. Then again, i wouldn't expect you to go dig through that as well. So far the M3 engine has been quiet durable. BTW, the S54 is not entirely new either. The basic block has been around since 1998 in europe developing over 315HP and quiet durable. I also have seen a turbo charged version of that 1998 3.2L developing over 600HP that has ran fine.


Double VANOS: steplessly variable valve TIMING
Valvetronic: steplessly variable valve LIFT for "throttle free load control"

The two work together. They're both there. You are wrong. Period.

Again, PLEASE LEARN TO READ. Vanos is the term that BMW used to stepless variable timing, with introduction of valvetronic. The double vanos and single vanos design on the M52 and M54 no longer applies as they are different in design.

You kept on lumping then together when they are different system. How many time do i need to point out even the original poster realized as such as well.


(you are far worse than even a lot of Honduh guys and believe me, that's pretty god damn bad. you have to be one of the biggest bmw apologist/fanboy types out there to dish out crap like this. to the person that PMed me about the E60 with RATIONAL thought, thanks. I just haven't had time to get back to you yet but will, and you know who you are )

Like i said, i am not apologizing for BMW.

I am simply point out your mistake one by one.

1. PLEASE GET BACK TO ME ON THE I-DRIVE SOFTWARE ISSUE

2. SHOW ME HOW YOU CAN CONCLUDE THAT THE ISSUES EXIST ON THE SINGLE VANOS INTRODUCED ON THE M52 EQUATES ALL DOUBLE VANOS M54/S54, AND VALVETRONIC ON N52 WILL MEAN THEY WILL ALL FAIL. ESPECIALLY AFTER THE ORIGINAL POSTER UPDATED STATING THAT THE PROBLEM CAN'T BE REPRODUCED ON THE M54.

3.SHOW ME THAT TOYOTA WILLINGLY OFFERED EXTENSION WITHOUT A FIGHT. SHOW ME HOW TOYOTA DID NOT IGNORE PROBLEM WITH V6 ON 2002 AND LATER CARS AND PRIOR TO 97.

4. PLEASE SHOW ME ON ONE CASE OF ENGINE PROBLEM WITH AN 06 525I EQUATES TO VANOS ISSUE AND BMW QUALITY IS DOWN THE TOILET WHILE THE ISSUES I POSTED ON THE IS AND GS CAN'T BE USED TO MEAN THAT LEXUS QUALITY IS IN TOILET AS WELL.

5. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE WAS I WRONG ON CLEARLY STATING THAT SINGLE VANOS ISSUE EXISTED 6 YEARS AGO AND ISSUES HAVE BEEN FIXED.

BMW does have its share of quality issue and will fight you to death on it. But don't portray toyota to be a saint and no quality issues as well.

The fact of matter is that each company has its own share of issues and depends on the amount of liability will either fight you to death or suck it up. It's all about money.

Toyota is the same way in dealing with its customers. Toyota has other issues on hand that is been fighting, and in fact i am still fighting them on the issue they made on the poor alignment on the sienna which resuled in uneven tire wear on all 4 tires.

If you look closely at amount of TSB that lexus/toyota has within last 3-5 years, you will see that the trend is pointing in increase of problems and TSB being issued.

Toyota is nowhere close to where it was 15 years ago, when its quality is beyond a doubt the best in the industry. With growth, toyota has slipped. Even though it is still best in the industry, it's not as good as 15 years ago. Design has improved, but quality IMHO has declined.

I went through 6 toyota/lexus within last 13 years. I can honest say, that quality has been on the decline.

My 93 camry V6 was bullet proof and did not have any mechanical issue that warranted any repair (other than replacing the transmission after 150k miles and i was tortoure it to die). The 97 camry that my mother in law has been durable at 100k miles. Starting with 98 sienna we started to see problem (mis-agligned dash, power door failed, failed stereo), 01 IS300 (did not own the car enough to have good feel of quality), 01 RX300 (rattle after 2 years of ownership, forgetful and none working memory seat), and 04 sienna (un-even tire wear due to wrong toe setting by toyota, rattling from the B-pillar due to poor quality of the locks, drawing of current from bad amp, leaking rear struts, poor design of dvd screen causing it not to lock in place for good viewing, poor programming of throttle by wire....).

Yes, all the problems were minor. I was lucky as i never experienced the sludge issue. I still believe toyota has good quality not again not as great as people make it out to be.

BMW does have its share of issues. But then again, on this board, this is blown way out of proportion.

As a reader, maybe we really need to take chiawei's advice and learn how to read, as his post sure is very difficult to understand. So difficult to be convinced and understood that, I don't even want to use the word "contradictive" to describe his posts.

Wow, I've learn more about Vanos system in this thread than at E46.com
Anyway, the guy just want something or some car to display his new job that will make him more money. He just wanted either the BMW or Lexus IS or SC430 to display his status. I don't think he concerns about the Vanos valve timing at all or even heard of it, reliablity issue or any of the i-drive/ u-drive or who the F-drive the car issues. Just be polite and get back on the topic.

IMO, just buy whatever you like and the car that will give you best status as possible. If you're looking at Lexus or BMW convertible that will fit 4 people. I suggest the 2002-05 M3 convertible or perhap get a Hummer H2 or H3.