It was predicted by me this would happen and in some ways I am. Lexus has finally with the new L-finese designs moved into more direct competition with the German powers and Jag. The question is this, the edge Lexus had over the other makes in the luxury segment was the price being in some cases $15,000-$20,000 lower, in some cases $5,000-$10,000 . With the gap changing along with the cars themselves how many of the new luxury car first time buyers will choose Lexus over the other makes being that price will become less of an obstacle. I would say this 3 years ago and was called names for it on this siteand asked to go back to Benz, know it appears what I saw coming 3 years ago is here(or on its way in 3-5 years) . The very thing that made Lexus what most of us loved is being lost. We didn't buy lexus cars because they were like Benz and BMW or at least I didn't. We or I purchased a Lexus because I liked the car the way it was. Don't get me wrong theres nothing wrong with improving on a car to make it more attactive. Whats wrong is the reason for doing so, its like smoking a cigar to fit in with the guys playing poker to fit in during a game of poker, and Benz and BMW,Jag and Audi have cigars and Lexus is smoking for the first time to fit in . You are who you are, and hay change is good but I question why. My reason for loving Lexus cars has been took away from me. Can I afford the higher prices, yes and if I wanted to pay more I would buy a Benz. As for now who would still buy a equally optioned Lexus over an equally optioned Benz, BMW or Jag.Try not to be biased because the day is upon us and coming were you will see what ive said is true they is no loyalty with big business and the consumer. Loyalty last as long as a dollar can be seen.We were all baited in to become loyal and by the time we were to see there was no differeance in price it would be to late. I know the prices aren't the same yet but soon they will. Would you still buy the Lexus? GOD IS GOOD ALL THe TIME !!!!!!!

Even with Lexus pricing slowly closing the gap and one day (perhaps) equalling) the High End Euros, I would still choose The premier Japanese Luxury automaker. To me Lexus quality and reliability and now styling is enough for me to continue making that decision. MB and BMW along with Audi will always offer attractive cars but that alone is not enough for me as a new or used car buyer. Lexus has simply won me over with their products and service offered. It goes beyond "Luxury Bang For The Buck". If that were soley the case I would pick Acura or Infinitis as my chhoice of cars. Its the overall package. I'd be lying if I said price is a non factor because for me it definitely is. That being said if the SC and CLK/SL or LS or A8 were equally priced I'd still lean more towards Lexus because of the aforementioned reasons. And with this new LS460 or LS600h MB has got a problem on their hands. That LS vs the S-Class imo is looking really ugly right now. I don't see myself driving anything without that chrome L on the grille for anytime soon. Lexus is offering to many choices right now especially with their L-finesse styling, I'm so glad they stepped out of the boxb finally. I'm patiently looking forward to the new SC ;)

Lexus pricing is still cheaper because as Lexus increases the price, so do the german competitors...MB has increased their S class prices by a lot already...the S600 for example was increased by 20K

off topic

is MB going to offer a less powerful S class in the US like the S430 was?

I think Lexus has been able to increase prices due to many factors. On the top of my head, I can think of reliability, quality, prestige, technology, resale value, service, etc.

Consumers are now savvy and know what they want and what they can get. They know that although other luxury automakers such as MB or BMW can offer the history and performance and luxury that make them highly sought after, Lexus can provide similar amenities but as a better package as a whole. That's why Lexus will sell, and that's why Lexus can charge accordingly.

I think the allure of Lexus has been in significant part, perhaps 50% or more, because of its lower pricing. But Lexus has always stated from the get-go that they were going toe to toe with the best in the world. Their goal was to meet and beat them at their game.

So if cheaper pricing is the only reason to go with Lexus, then they haven't been doing their job.

The new Lexus automobiles have increased in refinement, comfort, and features to levels past their competitors in a variety of ways..this is a process that began with the first LS. Now with captivating styling, the top-of-the-line service and other accoutrements means that Lexus should be able to sell on its merits alone, and not because of the pricing.

But it's still a work in progress, and the Lexus lineup has been expanding the top end but not losing the bottom end. Entry-level IS/ES, and possibly base price on the LS will all remain close to the original points they began with.

But I hope Lexus doesn't price itself out of my range. Otherwise, I can see myself going back to Toyotas. Good thing the trickle-down effect has given the new Toyotas lots of Lexus-like amenities and ambience.

off topic

is MB going to offer a less powerful S class in the US like the S430 was?

Good Question. I would imagine so. but don't expect a V6 350 like other markets. :D

Come out of the matrix. I was asking for you guys not to be biased. I love Lexus cars to but the truth is what we see. And reliabilty, I can't tell you how many problems others and myself have had with our LS 430's. Compared to the German makes yes the Japanese automakers have performed better. This still doesnt mean Lexus quality hasn't slipped a bit more and more since they started in 1990. Again I'm pro Lexus but if we want to maintain the quality and good pricing we must stop saying nothings wrong, because if we say its perfect they wont change a thing. You mean nobody agrees at all that they are changing only for the good of there pockets. Come on Neo's, red pill or blue pill. Again I say to you I'm pro Lexus, and love the cars but they are not focused anymore on what made us buy there cars. So nothings wrong when the LS usta be $30,000 less than the s-class and not even 20 years later its the same price in some cases? The Japanese cost to make there cars is also lower than the germans so there profit of american sells is MOB like, move over Capone and Soprano. I respect you guys opinions but all of you are biased about this topic but I understand, you never know a girl is no good like others until she does you wrong. Again dont be offended by me I mean no disrespect to you guys, your all club mates with me so Its all love we just disagree. Again look at infiniti and Acura, why have they not done what Lexus has? It was our support not lack of quality of Acura and Infiniti cars. The Honda and toyota and other Japanese makes are all well built and reliable not on the same level but hay they do well. We the consumers made Lexus not the other way around. Benz was always expensive and also BMW Jag and Audi. Lexus was the smart mans buy, quality along with price. Lexus is now no different than Benz. Next the quality will slip they dont have to care as much,give it 5 years no comments today. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

Check this out, I said in my thread though equal option pricing not base. Benz and BMW and Jags base is more eqipped so its not a fair comparison with the more traditional makes.I want us to look at same option pricing. The draw with Lexus was base entry level. No more can we use that to compare because the LS now has a long wheel base in the 460 and 600 series. Game on so lets compare apples to apples not grapes to apples. And the base for the LS is said to be going up $5,000-$6,000 big jump. Again you had some great points and made me think a whole lot, the toyata thing you mentioned was right on, They made the new Camry look like a luxury car with options and a base model is very nice lookiung also. I had a lexus dealer tell me to buy a Camry that the were the same engine wise just less power and had toyota on the back instead of Lexus and less options than Lexus. Now its closing the gap on lexus, and toyotas look entry level luxury(Avalon,Camry) GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

No matter how you look at it; Lexus is a top brand of choice when it comes to buying an upscale car, yet not loosing too much resale. There will always be a huge market of smart individuals who would buy Lexus over anything German.

There's a reason that people are still buying Lexus even though the price appears to be the same as German counterparts. I just love my IS350. It's unbelievably Smooth and GOOD!

When rappers are mentioniong that they roll in Lexus's in their songs, thats when you know that Lexus is right up there with BMW and Benz in terms of prestige. And I don't think Lexus quality will drop as the prices go up, cause if it does they will lose much of their customer loyalty and they will lose one of their best selling factors.

It was predicted by me this would happen and in some ways I am. Lexus has finally with the new L-finese designs moved into more direct competition with the German powers and Jag. The question is this, the edge Lexus had over the other makes in the luxury segment was the price being in some cases $15,000-$20,000 lower, in some cases $5,000-$10,000 . With the gap changing along with the cars themselves how many of the new luxury car first time buyers will choose Lexus over the other makes being that price will become less of an obstacle. I would say this 3 years ago and was called names for it on this siteand asked to go back to Benz, know it appears what I saw coming 3 years ago is here(or on its way in 3-5 years) . The very thing that made Lexus what most of us loved is being lost. We didn't buy lexus cars because they were like Benz and BMW or at least I didn't. We or I purchased a Lexus because I liked the car the way it was. Don't get me wrong theres nothing wrong with improving on a car to make it more attactive. Whats wrong is the reason for doing so, its like smoking a cigar to fit in with the guys playing poker to fit in during a game of poker, and Benz and BMW,Jag and Audi have cigars and Lexus is smoking for the first time to fit in . You are who you are, and hay change is good but I question why. My reason for loving Lexus cars has been took away from me. Can I afford the higher prices, yes and if I wanted to pay more I would buy a Benz. As for now who would still buy a equally optioned Lexus over an equally optioned Benz, BMW or Jag.Try not to be biased because the day is upon us and coming were you will see what ive said is true they is no loyalty with big business and the consumer. Loyalty last as long as a dollar can be seen.We were all baited in to become loyal and by the time we were to see there was no differeance in price it would be to late. I know the prices aren't the same yet but soon they will. Would you still buy the Lexus? GOD IS GOOD ALL THe TIME !!!!!!!
Market already told you what happens when Lexus raises prices - people buy more Lexus's than ever. Also, Jag and Audi sell less cars than what Lexus ES sells alone.

You are asking question that should be one year old. Today market has answered that it wants better, higher priced Lexus's.

You have good points, usermel, in that Japanese cost base is lower (due to rigorous efficiency and cost control), but now Lexus is possibly charging (or is at least very close) to = with the Germans. This = more profit for Toyota/Lexus.

However, will quality slip? I agree with you, the early LS 430s had some serious issues which the LS 400 did not have in 1989. I'm hoping that was a blip for Lexus quality overall, as for instance in the recent JD Power results, the LS 430 is the one breaking records, and continues to be a top pick. Plus Lexus claims that with the LS 460 the Tahara production process was overhauled to make 'the world's best even better' so who knows, quality could stay stellar. But then there's the fact that more and more tech is being put into luxury cars to the point where it might not be possible to have the LS 400 type reliability. But I'm hoping the LS reliability and the rest of Lexus stays top-class. There has been some blips in the past few years (out of Lexus' 'dark age' time), but overall I'm still giving them my trust.

Another point is that Mercedes' drop in quality, in particular, seems to stem from a variety of production issues, and not simply arrogance at being 'on top and charging top dollar.' It seems that in the rush to compete with the Japanese and in the American market, Benz sacrificed quality and cost-cutting, along with putting in new electronic equipment that was prone to glitches. I think that it was a series of production errors that resulted in the bottom-of-the-heap ratings for Benz quality and reliability. I'm hoping that Lexus won't make the same mistake.

I and others have the feeling that Lexus will surprise some observers by making its new lineup still price-advantaged compared to the competition. There are rumors that the LS 600h L will be cheaper than expected (far from the $125,000 figure the NY Times mentioned). There will still be a $10,000 minimum advantage to the Germans. Yes, it's getting less and less, but it's there...

Another bit is that in the prestige luxury world, $$$s count and it seems that the cut-rate pricing hurts Lexus' image. People can say, "Lexus is #1 because they dump their product/sell for cheap/undercut on price"...the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus suggests this. So Lexus, having built its reputation, no longer needs OR should use the price gap. Having = price suggests = or better value...! Also, there is this line of logic in the prestige luxury segment that 'if the customer can afford $XX,XXX, what's another $X,XXX?' Sort of the 'luxury buyer thinks of gas costs as a *'

From the consumer, pocketbook point of view, this is terrible. I am budget-minded, although I do believe in spending on luxury. So the idea that Lexus will go cost-up is not welcome to me. I can just hope that as Lexus grows, my income earning potential grows and I can afford the cars. I do think that I will opt out of the more expensive packages. As much as I ooh and aah over the rear-seat package on the LS, I doubt I will get it (even if I could afford the LS at this point!). The ES/IS are still competitive for me...if an IS coupe shows up...

Lexus moving up, because it can and because it's #1 in the US, grows a larger opening for Acura/Infiniti, the other Japanese luxury makes, and Cadillac/Buick/other near luxury-makers to come in and appeal to the more frugal luxury buyer. They won't get the same level of prestige and top-of-the-class luxury amenities, but they do get a lot of the same elements Lexus has, and a few better. One big one is the reality or perception of more performance on some models. It won't have the flair and total package of Lexus, but it's a serious contender. That said, Toyota is also a contender on this front with its XLE top models...

So with regards to pricing, it's may be a catch-22. If you don't price =, you lose some perception. If you do, you lose the value proposition.

I think that Lexus will aim for the in-between for a significant period to come. I just remembered, in The Lexus Story it was mentioned that a secret to Lexus' success was the realization that 'affluent people like a good deal too!' I hope Lexus doesn't forget that. It seems though that the 'good deal' may be paying near or equal price to the competition, for more amenities. Lexus better deliver on more amenities, or give a better deal. It seems Lexus considers quality to be its trump card thus far as 'always' resulting in a 'good deal' for the customer. One last benefit--Lexus dealerships still generally, to my knowledge, allow far more negotiating room in sales.

I hope to have a Lexus of my own in the future...but the perception is not necessarily the reality. Lexus seems to have more customers coming in all the time. I may be one of them--I hope to be one of them. But when it comes to getting the most for my money, I will pick accordingly. The Lexus cachet is something that I consider highly, so it will sway my decision in favor of a Lexus. But there are all sorts of factors to consider, and usermel you are right to consider cost as one of them.

I can only speak for myself, but price is NOT a factor at all for me when I chose to buy a Lexus over the German/European brands.

I too see your point usermel. I would like to say this though, in my view there are two types of luxury car buyers out there. Those who care and those who can afford not to. Those who do, the smart choice at this time would be Lexus so naturally these folk would be concerned with price, not so much that they can't afford it, but because they can't afford not to be concerned. Those who don't care can give a rats tail what the price is of the luxury car or how reliable the car is as long as it puts a smile on their face when they see it and drive it and if it brakes down next year they'll buy another they don't care, why because they can afford not to. I see nothing wrong with Lexus tapping into thoes pockets I think its a smart business move, if the money is there why not. I mean most who love lexus will go to a Toyota anyway if Lexus get out of their price range, so they're getting your money anyway, look at the new Avalon, see they're not forgetting about you, when the time comes when Lexus move out of folks price range they have a nice matress for people to fall into. ;)

People will still buy Lexus cars as long as they continue to innovate and focus on quality.
The new Hybrid models certainly tell me Lexus is not going to let the Germans plow them under the dirt.

At the end of the day, most people buying expensive cars aren't too concerned about quality; most of those $75K+ cars are leased. The 'owners' of those cars will only have them for 24 or 36 months, so why worry?

At least with Lexus, if there is a problem they address it quickly and efficiently...

For those of us lucky enough to have seen the new LS460 in person... trust me when I tell you, this car will sell based on its' looks alone.

Right now I am looking at getting the S 550 or the LS 460 I like both cars. Right now I am leaning towards the S 550 because I like the way it looks as compared to the LS 460 plus I have not heard anything bad by people who have reviewed the car(S 550). Now potentially the LS 460 will be a very nice car it appeals to the tech side of me and I have heard that Lexus service is the best. We won't know how good of a car the LS 460 will be until someone gets a chance to sit in it and drive it.

If the Lexus is close to the pricing of the MB , Audi or BMW it might not attract the new luxury car buyer because most people have preconceived Ideas about what luxury is. The big three in luxury to the general public is MB, BMW, and Audi mostly the first two.

I think I am rare if pricing is close and I like the Lexus better I would buy the Lexus. I am a tech person so things like voice activated navigation the works as well as the Acura's system and being able to use the navi while driving(I am aware there is a work around now, but who's to say if that will work in the new LS) is important to me. A car that can park by it's self that’s cool and all the other tech that will be in the LS and the long wheel base is God sent for me. Yes I would buy a Lexus at it's new pricing.

Well my issue with Lexus is that I've decided I prefer leasing in many cases, and their lease rates generally are about as non-competetive as possible. That's a shame considering how much they brag about their great resale value which should make for great lease rates. But you see Audi, BMW, and Mercedes doing some great factory-backed lease specials... but almost never Lexus. Sure they might say they're doing a lease promotion event but they don't ever give any actual official rates, and that tends to translate poorly to actual quoted rates.

Well my issue with Lexus is that I've decided I prefer leasing in many cases, and their lease rates generally are about as non-competetive as possible. That's a shame considering how much they brag about their great resale value which should make for great lease rates. But you see Audi, BMW, and Mercedes doing some great factory-backed lease specials... but almost never Lexus. Sure they might say they're doing a lease promotion event but they don't ever give any actual official rates, and that tends to translate poorly to actual quoted rates.
because they dont have to and they still sell cars :-)

Another thing with lexus is if you compare the equipment on the cars that will boost the prices of the german competitors. Example e350 cost 50k a gs300 is 44k if you add all the features that are standard on the GS and optional on the Eclass the 350's price soars to almost 54k. Not a good value to me.

Right now I am looking at getting the S 550 or the LS 460 I like both cars. Right now I am leaning towards the S 550 because I like the way it looks as compared to the LS 460 plus I have not heard anything bad by people who have reviewed the car(S 550). Now potentially the LS 460 will be a very nice car it appeals to the tech side of me and I have heard that Lexus service is the best. We won't know how good of a car the LS 460 will be until someone gets a chance to sit in it and drive it.

If the Lexus is close to the pricing of the MB , Audi or BMW it might not attract the new luxury car buyer because most people have preconceived Ideas about what luxury is. The big three in luxury to the general public is MB, BMW, and Audi mostly the first two.

I think I am rare if pricing is close and I like the Lexus better I would buy the Lexus. I am a tech person so things like voice activated navigation the works as well as the Acura's system and being able to use the navi while driving(I am aware there is a work around now, but who's to say if that will work in the new LS) is important to me. A car that can park by it's self that’s cool and all the other tech that will be in the LS and the long wheel base is God sent for me. Yes I would buy a Lexus at it's new pricing.

Audi really isn't consider a big part of the luxury segment, in the same level Lexus, MB, and BMW is in the US

I'm curious about why you think Lexus cars are going up in price. I can see the IS being more expensive, but it offers so much more than the first gen. However, the new GS is not much more than the old GS (my 2003 went for $54K loaded and the new ones go for $58K).

Helping Lexus even more however is the fact that they have tremendous dealer profit in each car - especially compared to the Germans. So they can negotiate a lower price - even when the stickers are equivalent (which means they don't need as many incentives spwolf)

However, the one thing Lexus has to be careful of is having too many one trick ponys. Take away the RX and their sales are not so hot any more. The IS is saving the day this week on the car side as the LS, GS, and ES were all suffering. Of course they have some nice things coming with the new ES, LS, and GS and that should really help.

I'm curious about why you think Lexus cars are going up in price. I can see the IS being more expensive, but it offers so much more than the first gen. However, the new GS is not much more than the old GS (my 2003 went for $54K loaded and the new ones go for $58K).

Helping Lexus even more however is the fact that they have tremendous dealer profit in each car - especially compared to the Germans. So they can negotiate a lower price - even when the stickers are equivalent (which means they don't need as many incentives spwolf)

However, the one thing Lexus has to be careful of is having too many one trick ponys. Take away the RX and their sales are not so hot any more. The IS is saving the day this week on the car side as the LS, GS, and ES were all suffering. Of course they have some nice things coming with the new ES, LS, and GS and that should really help.
RX is not big part of sales anymore though - 3 series has more %%% of BMW sales than does RX of Lexus sales :-). And I am sure Lexus likes to sell better margin car more anyway...

i think a few years ago i wouldnt have considered lexus a true competitor except for the LS and GX, but now since their entire sedan lineup is changed up with new designs interiors and engines, they are a real contender now

RX is not big part of sales anymore though - 3 series has more %%% of BMW sales than does RX of Lexus sales :-). And I am sure Lexus likes to sell better margin car more anyway...

March sales show the RX accounts for more than 40% of all sales - cars and trucks combined. Obviouly higher margins are preferable, but you don't walk away from a winner.

RX is not big part of sales anymore though - 3 series has more %%% of BMW sales than does RX of Lexus sales :-). And I am sure Lexus likes to sell better margin car more anyway...

As jwa pointed out, it is more than 40% of all Lexus sales - I consider that a big percentage.

Also remember, the RX is only two models, the 3-series is 12 different models.

...when people have made there mind up. It's human nature to stick to what you belive until the truth slaps you in the face,then you wake up. And dear Milla speaking on what people can afford they can give a rats a.., is based on your opinion. I have plenty of friends due to my 12 years in the music business (major label) that are wealthy and frugal even in there choice as far as value. I have millionaire friends who don't tip at all or buy new furniture, some still go to flea markets because there money smart, so saying rich means you don't care about bargins is not true in all cases. Also read "Millionaire Next Door" you"ll find if you havent already read this book that most wealthy Americans or let me say a good percentage prefer used autos. And as for me I had a S-class before buying my LS and as you well know the S-class, is more costly. Im not talking about my problem I have with Lexus, I have no problem with Lexus. Im simply seeing the truth and stating so. I also am a fan of Lexus cars, but I am a realist. The molding around my bumper came of and they replaced it, but it did. They have slipped and raised there prices. And yes its America, if I dont like, I wont buy it. Thats not what I'm saying. Im speaking on equally equipped cars not base models. And compairing Benz to Lexus is unfair also because Benz uses more expensive parts and materials to make there cars. The Japanese use some of the same designs for their cars and parts and there Government supports the auto makers allowing better price and thats also why you will notice if you pay close attention to likeness with Nissan (Maxima, Altima and 1998-2005 GS) and some likeness in other Japanese automakers cars, like now with Daimler/Chrysler and Benz and the Crossfire looking like the SL Benz. I know more about this issue than you guys see. This isnt a debate Milla about affording a Lexus. I also have a LS and by the way can afford it, and dont need to go down to Toyota Avalon(insult you even made that upady comment) . The comedy in this is I am pro keeping prices lower and you guys (not all of you) are acting like salesman for Lexus,and want them to charge more or agree if they do liek the cars Lexus make are perfect.Unless Jesus himself is building these cars there not mistake free. And most J.D pwer awards are based on reports by owners. I havehad on my LS alone 3 issue I never reported to the dealer, I fixed the myself. All im saying is hay for real now family, if your over 30 years old and purchased your first Lexus like me at 25 years old or younger or purchased at any age, a 1990-1998 Lexus what made you buy besides quality. For most it was price/quality . We can overlook the gap closing (price) if we want but its a case of worm on a hook if you ask me. To each his or her own. I can afford a new 2007 LS Milla when it arrives but will pass because i'd rather have the deal and quality Lexus usta offer with the 1990-2000 LS400 models. I got the LS430, I know but were I was buying there were no LS400's I liked when I was looking. Again people Lexus was the pretty girl that wasn't a size 4 dress size, she had meat on her. Now my girl is becoming model thin. I loved her for her and now thats gone because she changed, not some completely.Better or worse is yet to be seen but she changed. GOD IS GOOD

This is a good way to see what people think about the change in the company,some agree with me some don't. Again no disrespect to anyone if we disagree its all in fun and conversation. GOD IS GOOD.

Clearly, Lexus is still priced under the Germans but now more than ever, they are closer in price with many models. And Lexus just sold over 300,000 cars.

So the market has responded. As Lexus has gotten pricier, sales have increased. And unlike many of their compeititors, there is no Lexus priced below 30k.

As stated earlier, I also feel Lexus quality is slipping some. There are many posts on this site that proves it. Lexus is still waaay better than the germans, though. As for the price wars...I still think Lexus is a much better bargain. You can get in the entry level cars, the IS and ES for under 36K. You get a lot of car for that price too. At MB, the little c-class coupe is in that price range but it's not luxurious and it's a kid's car. The c-class sedans cost over 40K and you get a lot less car for the money. The clk is just a 2 door c-class but costs around 50K. Go up 10 and you get in an SC430. E-class, way over priced. Slk, please. I won't argue about the cls, s, sl and cl. They seem appropriately priced. Actuall, the cls uses the e-class chasis. That means it's way overpriced at 80K (68 with forced options).

lots

http://www.jdpower.com/presspass/pr/images/2005089a.gif

1990 when the V8 LS400 was the price of a 6 cylinder 300E it would be good for him to wake up and see the progress that has been made since then. Those were the days of ABS and Traction Control, usermel. Now are the days of VDIM. A Lexus first I might add unavailable on the three pointed star.. VSC happened back in 1998. The new ES350 should please a value conscious retrogrouch as it outperforms the original LS in every respect yet costs much less because of a little thing called inflation. The house you live in is not worth so much more because it's getting better with age, your dollars are just worth much less. The new ES350 has more HP, Torque, fuel efficiency, interior quietude and all weather traction not to mention front, knee, side curtain and side mounted front and rear airbags than the original LS you had a love affair wth only offered frontal protection. Now we have brake assist, brakeforce distribution, Ultra Low emissions, Gen. 5 Navigation, Mark Levinson, quadruple climate zones, Pre collision systems and Hybrids. The German Luxmobiles Usermel is so ambivalent about offer Diesels as an alternative. Did you know that diesels put out Dioxin? That is not what I want to breathe at any price. I sold the S Class (Saunder) when Usermel purchase his first LS. It was about that time that Gas Guzzler taxes were introduced and the "S" Class of today has kept that tradition alive. Did you know that Lexus has never had a model that had a gas guzzler tax? The new stellar 600hL that Usermel is warning about will probably have a Hybrid tax credit!

What I read between the lines of Usermel's rant is that he wants Lexus to keep the price down and wants to look for support from the Lexus faithful to have a peaceful demonstration threatening to take their business elsewhere. Lexus outsold MB last year by 75,000 units and BMW by 35,000 in the US. The places where Benz and BMW were strong are now under siege by Lexus. The new IS is an unqualified hit that will improve market share. The GS350 will bring new Lexus owners into the fold. The upper echelon buyers are giving me deposits on LS460's and 600hL's coming out in the October and next April already. Even European buyers have voted the Lexus the most reliable in surveys. The new ES350 is just arriving and MB and BMW don't even have a FWD model to market against it so it will just sell another 70,000 without a challenge from der Faderland.

My question is how much longer can Mercedes Benz trade on its history and pedigree? BMW is the only other fighter in the ring with Lexus and the battle ensues......BMW just announced that they are experimenting with engine shutoff when the car is at rest. They are also working on capturing the kinetic energy when braking. These are only two of the features of the Lexus Hybrid Synergy drive. Did I forget to mention that the BMW prices just keep going up, up, up?

Anyone considering the new "S"Class should wait until they get the air suspension perfected as I've heard of three failures in the first month of ownership without a fix yet as they sit waiting for parts shipment from Deutschland. Those owners must feel real special after putting down their $90,000.

Be careful what you wish for Usermel...Lexus is still a cheap date.

Rock

Cant take anyone being critical of you beloved Lexus Hay buddy. Do you own Lexus. They will let you go like Ford is doing around the country if they needed to. First of I am a Lexus supporter again, if not it wouldnt be in my driveway. Pump your brakes, Im sure you have ABS Lexus Grand Puba . This is not a debate for the biased, and no I dont want to start a revolt thats ridiculous and Im offended. Better belive I wont suggest anyone buy from Maryland (Rockville) but I highly recommend Lexus as a car company as a whole. Im just pointing out what you dont want me to so relax nobody will change there love for lexus because of me. Check this Master Rockville I am a member of clulexus for a reason, I want to be. I own a # of companies and work for nobody so dont belive I'll be intimidated by you or any other car dealer or salesman, I am an American citizen so its my right to say what I say and yours,but your trying to make me out to be Malcom X before he went to Mecca and thought all whites were devils. I in no way want to hurt you or Lexus' business. I thought you guys listened to the consumer and how they felt. This is what Benz has over you guys, I never had a disagreement with any luxury brand except Lexus. You guys are like the athletes who go from high school to the pros to quick and dont remember its the fans who pay your salary. Remeber the Roman Empire from our history books, GONE and so can your company with the right person speaking against it. Find out who peolpe are first before you speak so bold. You are going to make me do what you said with your sarcasim. I wont though, there are some Great Lexus employees and owners out there and I support and want there success. This is what you guys do, not just Lexus, Benz and BMW did it to you when I was debating between the three car companies to pick from. How about being humble and if you are that confident in the Lexus product, let it show in there actions (Sales). I am but one man not 40 or fifty. I only want to keep the car company I purchased 6 cars from honest. My comments werent meant to attack you Rockville or your nameplate. I had no idea it was taken that far with you or anyone else. Cocky Cocky Cocky is all I have to say. Dont mention my name again Rockville, you dont know me and I dont know you and dont want to. Keep my name of your keys Master Rockville. Im sorry Im not being a good boy Sir but, your company is pulling a JEDI MIND trick and your afraid I opened PANDORA'S BOX making the consumer think. I know money and money value, and how for the first time since the depression the savings rate is below 0%, please. Im not new to this Im true to this. WISDOM!!!!! You know that all car companies have flaws and yours has less right know. I know some who have had problems with there lexus and fix it and dont report it. I have plenty of times. Do those stats account for that. The best isnt just being problem free its everything not just J.D Power surveys, its also being understanding and trying to fix what is wrong. Not being critical of the consumer and making them out to be the enemy when they praise your product and battle Benz owners and turn new car buyers on to your company, which I have plenty of times(is that someone who wants a revolt?). I only am critical on clublexus not anywere else but now I wonder why Im being loyal when its so easy for you guys that sell these cars to show your true feelings about the customer. when were critical you hate us and were angry, Im not even angry now Im offended you made the comment of me trying to get people to revolt, when we ask questions you hate us. When we just buy and say noting thats how you want it, man on the Benz site they trash you(Lexus,BMW) and vice versa on BMW's site. I thought Lexus had more class than that. Again how many times must I say I am a Lexus owner and supporter. Anyone reading this should take heed of this, example of what I found out after getting a chance to go to Manheim myself(friend is a car dealer) keep the consumer dumb . If your smart you would ignore my comments, not draw attention to them your making this into a debate and I never wanted one and dont now. And Benz treats people better here (Norfolk/Va Beach) than Lexus here so maybe thats why I see things the way I do. And when I did buy from your state the salesman and general manager lied constantly (Darcars) dont say it its not your dealership .GOD IS GOOD!!

Usermel, I'm sorry for the bad experiences you've had with Lexus. I can see why you would feel that Lexus in general is not what it used to be.

I have tried to point out in this thread how generalizing Lexus to Mercedes and BMW's experiences may not necessarily be accurate. We have to wait and see

Right now the rise in prices for Lexus has come in accordance with a rise in amenities for Lexus cars, which are now top-of-class more than ever. There is also evidence that Lexus cars have improved in quality in several areas.

There was a 'dark period' up to recently, but it is my opinion and hope that that has changed. Despite being still #1, Lexus knows that it has to improve dealership service and quality to stay at the top. That is why they have recently launched a dealership service improvement program, and other initiatives. Sales, however, may not be affected--although it is still rated well. I know because I have taken my business from a Lexus dealership which was rather poor in sales service, to another which was excellent.

I would like to point out this article: http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/040601.html
in which it is stated that any cost-savings achieved on the New ES 350 are not saved for Lexus, they are put back into the car to improve other amenities. Lexus is still serious about quality.

At the same time, Lexus cars have moved up in price, yet still straddle the value gap, in order to reflect the increased prestige of the car. And yes, they do get more profit--the whole luxury division is a high-margin business to begin with. Greedy? Perhaps--but it goes with the territory and it reflects the prestige of the car as argued here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus (future of Lexus section).

I think that being biased towards Lexus (as in new pricing reflects good) can be contrasted with being biased against Lexus (as in new pricing reflects bad). I think we should all wait and see whether the market and the consumers feel Lexus is doing the right thing.

...Its these guys who are biased and even Stevie Wonder can see tha,t I cant understand. He works for Lexus, what about taking me and others into account. Remember, most here are car heads. Like Dead Heads are to the Grateful Dead. Most consumers dont join car clubs so most that would be critical like me arent even members. Hence is why I'm the minority and get jumped on. I didnt decide to be critical one day, I noticed it from observing. Again people point out Benz and BMW's prices being high and rising, again I said in an earlier post they are traditional in that way of pricing, thats how Lexus stole there business quality for the dollar. Measure options on the car, not base price, again a base LS is what they are selling the its cheaper thing on, put the same items in the car and you'll see the gap closing. 20 years from now they will be the same price, watch. Why? You guys are saying its O.K, saying there going up in price and I dont like is not anti-consumer, its hay guys did you notice this, thats it. In no way do I want people not to buy Lexus'. Also the Benz company uses better parts and more expensive, dont take my word for it research it. HELLO dont we see Lexus being just like them and no different. Thats what made Lexus, and why it was and is successful. I dont want people to stop buying Lexus', I love there cars im just bringing up someting I noticed. Again its like the humble singer who becomes Rick James (no disrespect). I got support now I dont care they still will buy my product . Rockville knows if enough do say we dont like the price going up Lexus will listen. Price goes up, salesman make more, and hay I want them to make there money but I seen the markup on these Japanese makes comnpared to the German models. It cost more to make a Benz and the other German models than the Japanese brands (hint: Hyndai,10 year 100,000 mile warranty. Have you guys wondered why Japanese makes are cheaper(think). Pandora's Box baby and they know it. So a Lexus going up in price is a greater increase of profit compared to the German model. What is the yen worth compared to a Euro tell me. Hello do the math. Its your money not mine. Il'l go to Acura, now people will trash me for saying that(I already see the post "GO USERMEL WE DONT NEED YOU) like Benz peolpe were saying about Lexus, people back in1990 for going to Lexus same principal but now you guys have become like those you once were critical of for being critical of you., I know what you might be thinking, a Acura isnt on the level of a Leuxus. Thats the same thing they said about the Lexus compared to the Benz between 1990-2005 and still say. I am a supporter of quality for money value and loyalty. Is loyalty $5,000 more because the body style changed. The only ones getting over arent just the oil companies people. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

Usermel, I'm sorry for the bad experiences you've had with Lexus. I can see why you would feel that Lexus in general is not what it used to be.

I have tried to point out in this thread how generalizing Lexus to Mercedes and BMW's experiences may not necessarily be accurate. We have to wait and see

Right now the rise in prices for Lexus has come in accordance with a rise in amenities for Lexus cars, which are now top-of-class more than ever. There is also evidence that Lexus cars have improved in quality in several areas.

There was a 'dark period' up to recently, but it is my opinion and hope that that has changed. Despite being still #1, Lexus knows that it has to improve dealership service and quality to stay at the top. That is why they have recently launched a dealership service improvement program, and other initiatives. Sales, however, may not be affected--although it is still rated well. I know because I have taken my business from a Lexus dealership which was rather poor in sales service, to another which was excellent.

I would like to point out this article: http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/040601.html
in which it is stated that any cost-savings achieved on the New ES 350 are not saved for Lexus, they are put back into the car to improve other amenities. Lexus is still serious about quality.

At the same time, Lexus cars have moved up in price, yet still straddle the value gap, in order to reflect the increased prestige of the car. And yes, they do get more profit--the whole luxury division is a high-margin business to begin with. Greedy? Perhaps--but it goes with the territory and it reflects the prestige of the car as argued here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus (future of Lexus section).

I think that being biased towards Lexus (as in new pricing reflects good) can be contrasted with being biased against Lexus (as in new pricing reflects bad). I think we should all wait and see whether the market and the consumers feel Lexus is doing the right thing.
I agree with you Enigma we will see. I dont want to be right bro. Yeah all this added amenity stuff is boring me. Is that saying they havent put enough in there cars until they convinced us they were cheaper and a better value when they will one day no longer be. I believe in being fair so I'll take your advice and wait. GOD IS GOOD.

Hey, you guys need to chill. This debate is going too far off into no mans land.

Hey, you guys need to chill. This debate is going too far off into no mans land.
I agree. Lets get back on topic

Future models said what I wasnt probably communicating. The cars are cheaper is why most not all came to Lexus. Not because we cant afford more of a higher price but we dont want to spend as much as Benz buyers. This is exactly what I meant by I loved Lexus for not being like Benz, mayber others always felt like Lexus was not on Benz and Bmw's level, and now are feeling more like there getting close to having a car that is on the level of the power 2. Again Im saying to you guys what the wikipedia article states it will work here but hasnt fully in Europe beacuse of what Lexus is, the smart consumers car. European and American buyers who are loyal to Benz and Jag and BMW are typically high status peole who believe high price is better I believe Quality,cost and reliabilty is the best and I thought you guys felt the same.I didnt buy a poor mans Benz, I bought a Lexus and am proud. When they go up in price full fledge we will see what my point is, it will happen trust me, thats what Lexus was trying to get to from day one.Benz and BMW know this and are layghing at us consumers because they know the true intent of Lexus.Again I want to keep buying these cars, but when Lexus becomes just like Benz and BMW Im done if I wanted a Benz I would buy one. Bad enough they even copy the body style of Benz a dead giveaway. They cant sell this to the Europeans as mush though they sell some becaus ethe Euro's are more srtict on there choice of Luxury cars and thats why also they tried it in America before they did in Japan before Amercica. Imagine if Ford didnt start hereor General Motors cars. I told yall to be supportive of the consumner not to hate on anyone but point out this issue. Most of you will remain close minded, but go to England and tell me how many Lexus' you see as compared to German brands. Its not just tradition its a matter of the Benz using more pricey parts. I owned the S and ML modles and can tell you they had no issues with fit and finish and interior and exterior quality. The problem I had with Benz was electical problems, nothing mechanical. As a matter of fact all my times at the Benz dealer was because of the electical problems the Germans had in building the Benz trying to keep up with the Japanese brands (Infinti,Acura and Lexus). All love for Lexus just want you guys to see Jesus didnt build this car. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

I agree. Lets get back on topic
O.k I will no problem with that just let me say Im not mad at all its these cmpany guys who never want tyhe consumer to have an opinion other than what they want you to towards there product. Im cool I love Lexus cars and this site (clublexus) and want no bad blood. So I wont comment on Rockville again.GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME!

Future models said what I wasnt probably communicating. The cars are cheaper is why most not all came to Lexus. Not because we cant afford more of a higher price but we dont want to spend as much as Benz buyers. This is exactly what I meant by I loved Lexus for not being like Benz, mayber others always felt like Lexus was not on Benz and Bmw's level, and now are feeling more like there getting close to having a car that is on the level of the power 2. Again Im saying to you guys what the wikipedia article states it will work here but hasnt fully in Europe beacuse of what Lexus is, the smart consumers car. European and American buyers who are loyal to Benz and Jag and BMW are typically high status peole who believe high price is better I believe Quality,cost and reliabilty is the best and I thought you guys felt the same.I didnt buy a poor mans Benz, I bought a Lexus and am proud. When they go up in price full fledge we will see what my point is, it will happen trust me, thats what Lexus was trying to get to from day one.Benz and BMW know this and are layghing at us consumers because they know the true intent of Lexus.Again I want to keep buying these cars, but when Lexus becomes just like Benz and BMW Im done if I wanted a Benz I would buy one. Bad enough they even copy the body style of Benz a dead giveaway. They cant sell this to the Europeans as mush though they sell some becaus ethe Euro's are more srtict on there choice of Luxury cars and thats why also they tried it in America before they did in Japan before Amercica. Imagine if Ford didnt start hereor General Motors cars. I told yall to be supportive of the consumner not to hate on anyone but point out this issue. Most of you will remain close minded, but go to England and tell me how many Lexus' you see as compared to German brands. Its not just tradition its a matter of the Benz using more pricey parts. I owned the S and ML modles and can tell you they had no issues with fit and finish and interior and exterior quality. The problem I had with Benz was electical problems, nothing mechanical. As a matter of fact all my times at the Benz dealer was because of the electical problems the Germans had in building the Benz trying to keep up with the Japanese brands (Infinti,Acura and Lexus). All love for Lexus just want you guys to see Jesus didnt build this car. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

Alright well a couple things here.
1. When u enter a new market, you BETTER price below the competiton. Lexus did that in 1989. If you look today, there are rampant accusations that China made goods are all sold here underpriced, b/c of their rate exchange.
2. Lexus offered similar or MORE car for the money. It wasn't just cheaper cars. We are talking about outside of M/AMG, Lexus cars go toe to toe with the Germans. The other Japanese car makers can't say that.
3. Everyone's prices have gone up. Its not just Lexus. All luxury brands went up in price. Even non luxury cars, Camry's, Accords, Altimas, Passats, Avalons can get in the 30k+ range.
4. Lexus has established its a TRUE TIER 1 luxury brand. THe Japanese competiton cannot come close to making this statement, as they make moves that are not one a luxury brand makes. Lexus fought incredibly hard for this position, and doesn't want to risk losing it by selling I-4 cars, sub 30k cars, etc. It simply DESTROYS your luxury credibility. Mercedes experienced with with the C230 hatchback which is now discontinued. BMW did with the 318ti hatchback and won't import the 1 series to America.
5. As people get older, their revenue increases. Brands want to keep customers IN THEIR BRAND. All companies PRAY, from the age of 10 to 90, that person STAYS with the brand.
For instance for Lexus
young 20s-IS
mid 30s-IS/GS
40s/50s/-GS/LS/SC

You want to move up and keep your market.


I think keeping the IS at 31k to start and the new ES at 33k to start is fine for a luxury brand. There are TONS of great cars out there below that price. Why have a 25k Lexus, when there are MULTIPLE 25k Toyotas?


We can keep the discussion, just no personal attacks. Just my 2 cents

...Sicklex and will do so again I like the clublexus site and Lexus cars. And am happy to be part of the site. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

Usermel, this is a bit offtopic but can you format your posts a little better. Its a bit hard to read when the text is all clumped like that. Use some spaces between lines etc. Thanks!

Alright well a couple things here.
1. When u enter a new market, you BETTER price below the competiton. Lexus did that in 1989. If you look today, there are rampant accusations that China made goods are all sold here underpriced, b/c of their rate exchange.


Easiest way to entering a new market is lower price. I agree. But on the cheap made China stuff i don't fully agree on the unfair competition which is the general opinion. The companies that are really making the profits are the US buyers, i have seen them in action, profit margins in China are very low, 5 - 10% is not unusual. Which manufacturer in the US or Europe would accept that?


2. Lexus offered similar or MORE car for the money. It wasn't just cheaper cars. We are talking about outside of M/AMG, Lexus cars go toe to toe with the Germans. The other Japanese car makers can't say that.

3. Everyone's prices have gone up. Its not just Lexus. All luxury brands went up in price. Even non luxury cars, Camry's, Accords, Altimas, Passats, Avalons can get in the 30k+ range.


Lexus/Toyota products are built on PROVEN parts/technologies, which is why the cars are so reliable and yet relatively cheap to build.

IMO one of the reason for Lexus success in the US is their focus on the US market. Other Luxury brands (MB, BMW, Audi, ...) are doing much better in Europe and Asia, but customer requirements in these markets are different.

Lexus is now getting very agressive and is introducing many different models, and i fear they may lose (some) focus.



Lexus has established its a TRUE TIER 1 luxury brand. THe Japanese competiton cannot come close to making this statement, as they make moves that are not one a luxury brand makes. Lexus fought incredibly hard for this position, and doesn't want to risk losing it by selling I-4 cars, sub 30k cars, etc. It simply DESTROYS your luxury credibility. Mercedes experienced with with the C230 hatchback which is now discontinued. BMW did with the 318ti hatchback and won't import the 1 series to America.


That statement is valid for the US market. However, in Europe customers accept lowerpriced MB and BMW. Also, MB and BMW do not have a choice. In order to stay a keyplayer they need to sell volumes.

At the moment Lexus is still not the best Luxury Brand in the World. However, it is considered as the Best Luxury Brand in the US, and that is not a bad achievement.



5. As people get older, their revenue increases. Brands want to keep customers IN THEIR BRAND. All companies PRAY, from the age of 10 to 90, that person STAYS with the brand.
For instance for Lexus
young 20s-IS
mid 30s-IS/GS
40s/50s/-GS/LS/SC

You want to move up and keep your market.

I think keeping the IS at 31k to start and the new ES at 33k to start is fine for a luxury brand. There are TONS of great cars out there below that price. Why have a 25k Lexus, when there are MULTIPLE 25k Toyotas?

Fully agree. Toyota / Lexus has been traditionally very strong in keeping their customers.

HKGS300, great points. I was referring to the US market. Clearly, Europe/Asia is different. As you stated in Europe, small cars and fuel economy does sell in the luxury car range. Lexus learned very hard by not offering a diesal until the new IS 220. Clearly there are A/B class Benzes, 1 series BMWs, A2s and A3s and TONS of I-4 options.

Usermel, this is a bit offtopic but can you format your posts a little better. Its a bit hard to read when the text is all clumped like that. Use some spaces between lines etc. Thanks!
I will try to. How do you space for paragraph's on the computer. I dont know how thats done.I noticed my self its hard to go sentence to sentence when I go on and on, and I tend to miss my place when reviewing my post.GOD IS GOOD.

I just want to say that I really think the new LS460/600 will shake up the car market along with the other Lexus'. The changes have gotten more talk amongst the regular german car buyers. So some may switch over from german makes. They (new Lexus') have a European look.GOD IS GOOD.