You might have the ES 250, 1st gen GS and 1st gen IS as failures for Lexus, and only from a sales standpoint. However, they were improved upon and no Lexus model has EVER been discontinued.

And while Lexus is not the sportiest brand, they always fare very well in reviews, if not winning outright, then placing in a near top position.

We are talking about 6 straight years as number 1 in sales in America. Countless awards from the press.

With the GS 450h, LS 600h and LF-A coming, Lexus is boldly going where no other Japanese car company has come close to coming.

What if...

they fail???

What if people balk at the GS 450h and stick to the GErmans? What if people don't GET a performance hybrid?

Sure RX 400h sales are brisk but the RX is so good and well recieved with the market, you could add an electic toaster instead of a hybrid and it would have sold.

The Accord Hybrid, which is touted toward performance, pretty much cannot be given away.

Maybe consumers don't get it.

The Lexus LS 600h, while pricing has not been set, is GOING TO BE at least $80,000 dollars, possibly enroaching on $100.000 territory.

Are people READY to buy a $100,000 Japanese luxury car? Lexus seems to think so? I have my reservations. Its LESS about gearheads and MORE about people with money. And they go with ESTABLISHED BRANDS. Its why Tiffany's can sell a crappy 1/8 diamond for $5000 on a silver chain.

So what if the LS 600h fails?

As for the LF-A, you may say the NSX is the first Japanese Supercar and that arguement car be made. We are talking about though firsts for a Japanese sports car, a V-10 from F-1, size of a 911, and a price over $100,000 and around 500hp.

What if people just skip it? The NSX is a great example, a SUPERB car, but the lack of BRAND never made it a sales success here or anywhere.

Will the same happen to the LF-A?

I see Lexus would adjust production and lower the MSRP to see where the price of where consumers would buy it

The NSX was a sales success, its sales died because of a lack of new model

I think people would be more receptive to the 100K LS if the power levels matched the germans. I think a lot of german car drivers really want to consider lexus but 100K buys a german car with 500hp. The LS will be 380hp. More than enough but why not just push the envelope and go for the gusto. We are talking about 100K. Plus, the new es350 looks pretty good and comes with 270hp and lots of tech toys. That might steal some LS shoppers who don't care about rear wheel drive.

As for the LFA. I think it will do well because it will have the 500hp. I believe acura should have upped the power on the nsx. You got supercar looks, you need supercar power to match. Looks like lexus is putting the power in...they'll sell enough.

Ok, I understand about the whole "worried about the future" thing... but where you killed the credibility is how the first gen IS is considered a failure. I dont think it has EVER been considered a failure by ANYONES standards... :uh:

Ok, I understand about the whole "worried about the future" thing... but where you killed the credibility is how the first gen IS is considered a failure. I dont think it has EVER been considered a failure by ANYONES standards... :uh:
From a sales standpoint its a failure. But I don't think OVERALL its a failure, it was a homerun for Lexus introducing the brand to a much younger audience and was loved by the press.

From a sales standpoint its a failure. But I don't think OVERALL its a failure, it was a homerun for Lexus introducing the brand to a much younger audience and was loved by the press.


Ah... ok! Thanks for clearing that up!

The LF-A will fail if it is priced considerably more than the M6 (ie. 120K+), this is Vantage V8 and 911 Turbo territory. The Vantage V8 has a long waiting list and 911 Turbo owners tend to be very loyal, so where are the potential LF-A customers going to come from.

As for the LFA. I think it will do well because it will have the 500hp. I believe acura should have upped the power on the nsx. You got supercar looks, you need supercar power to match. Looks like lexus is putting the power in...they'll sell enough.


funny thing is the LF-A is the total opposite of the NSX, supercar power, luxo cruiser look.

Not trying to sound overly optimistic but this is the company whos slogan is "Relentless Pusuit of Pefection". If the supercar and Hybrid models fail, they wont just let it happen and forget about it. They will figure out why it didnt work the first time around and take another crack at it, but in a different way and with far more advanced technology.

The obvious answer would be sales will tank for those models and Lexus growth would slow considerably. There is a lot riding on these hybrid models right now.

I think the LF-A has a greater chance of failing than the LS600hL. Genuine sport is just not in the Lexus DNA(though things are very slowly changing). If the LF-A fails then I think they would simply try again. Not necessarily with an all out Supercar, but they could go the AMG route and add sport models to the existing line up.

If the LS600h fails, they could easily limit production or find an alternative to hybrid. Or they could make the hybrid powerplant more fuel effiecient instead of focusing on performance.

Man, its kinda tough pointing out future Lexus failures. Everything's been going so smoothly its like they are immune to failure. But that "what if..." does make you think a little bit. :) The GS450h will be the first test. If this is a big hit, then I see no reason why the LS600 would have a problem.

At $100K or more for a vehicle, there are so many choices out there. It is going to be tough. However, I think the LS600h won't have a problem because there is really no other competitions. People buy hybrid because they are HYBRID. It's just that simple. They know it is not cost effective in the end... It's the bragging rights... The LS600 has the luxury and power to match the German cars.. AND the HYBRID that German cars don't have. So for the LS600h, I think it will be a success.

For the LF-A, however, I think it will be tough battle..

I don't know. Obviously, the luxury market narrows considerably beyond the $30k price-point. But in my opinion, the mentality remains the same - people are looking to get a deal. Even though Lexus has attempted to differentiate their hybrid cars by making them more powerful than the non-hybrid cars, I don't know that it will be enough to drive sales into the clouds. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to spend 8 or 10 thousand dollars more on a hybrid that gets to 60mph less than half a second quicker than the next-lower trim level - all while only saving about 5 mpg worth of gas. That'd only account for about $1500 worth of fuel savings annully with gas prices @ $3.00/gallon. That means over 6 years of additional ownership to see a benefit.

I just don't know if the novelty of hybrid technology - which is what this whole thing boils down to - will be enough to sell these cars. The only thing that will sell them is people's distorted ideas about how much they'll save on gas by purchasing these vehicles.

We'll see if there exists such a distortion.

M.

If the first gen IS was a failure from a sales standpoint, I can answer why. Even though it is a wonderful car, it is very un-lexus like and it's like wearing a blue tux to an all black tie affair. There were several nice surprises to the IS when I first got mine, and a few downfalls also. In general, it really is not very lexus like. The doors are light, the car is very small and if it were not as nice as it is, would be considered an econobox. Lexus buyers don't buy econoboxes.

If it did not drive so well, I'd never know it was a Lexus if the badge was not on the front. Comparing it to my SC however, the SC is much better built. Lexus nearly took a step backwards with the first gen IS. Fortunately for them, it drives like a dream and satisfies the Lexus urge in all of us, however... it is still just short of an econobox with it's size and lightweight attitude. Comparibly speaking of course, to the other models.

I always thought the IS300 should have just been badged as a toyota altezza, it just lacks the lexus luster, the new IS fits the lexus style much better

I think both the the LF-A and LS600h stand good chances of failing...The first tiem around. I dont know that many people would be willing for fork over 100k for a Japanese car when you can find yourself in so many other cars; S550, E55, CLS, CLS55, 745i, Maserati Quattroporte, just to name a few. I think it would be hard to sway peoples' minds to buy a Lexus when they can have something like the aforementioned cars. Also as far as the LF-A goes, there seems to be lots of competition in that category. As stated before there is the 911 Turbo which for around the same price is definitely a fomidable opponent. There will be a NEW NSX, GTR, BMW M3/6, not to mention existing cas like the Z06 and SL500/55 AMG. If the LF-S gets too much over 100k it will defintely run into problems imo dealing with cars like Aston Martin, Maserati, Ford GT, Lamborghini and so forth. Depending on how high up the price goes Lexus might be barking up the wrong tree with this one. IMO if I had to pick on to succeed its going to be the LS.

IMO Lexus is pushing too hard and betting too much on the US market. All the models that Lexus will market in the coming years are US focused.

Since most of the CL members are US based, most of us are biased. Lexus is not an success in Europe and also is only doing okay in Asia. Hybrids are also not a success in Europe since a turbodiesel will have a much better economy on highways.

Asians (incl Japan) prefer German brands if the prices are the same. The new GS300 and IS250 are not selling well in Asia due to Toyota's pricing strategy. In other words, these cars are too expensive, and people prefer to drive BMWs or Mercedes over here.

Outside the US ... the SC430/Soarer is very very scarce.

I also believe that most Lexus owners do not consider performance as their most important reason to get a Lexus. Factors like reliability, ride/comfort, value-for-money (compared to Mercedes, BMW, ...) are more important.

Lexus is now trying to get into different markets with models that can jeopardize these factors if there are hiccups.

I dunno ... i think Lexus' strategy is very risky ...

I agree that the LF-A stands the most chance to fail among the new cars, especially from a sales standpoint if they price it too high, & Lexus has no track record of making a supercar that drives like one on the track, like the NSX. Even though the NSX sells in very few #'s in the past 10 years or so, there were actually huge waiting lists for them the first couple years it came out. Their sales dropped because they never upgrade it significantly & the price rose too much.

As for the regular LS460, it will be a big success like the LS always have been, & the LS600hL, I don't think they will make enough of them to sell for it to really fail, & it will get great reviews, as you can see the GS450h has gotten very good reviews so far, & the LS600hL will be an even more impressive car.
Like the V12's offered from the competitors, they only make up a few % of the sales of the model anyway. Similarly, Lexus won't plan to sell a lot of the LS hybrid compared to the LS460. There are many people that aren't ready for hybrids yet regardless of how good the car may be, but I think the LS600hL have a better chance of exceeding sales expectations than not meeting it, since they won't make a lot of them in the first place. I think they make the LS600hL more for a technological showcase than for sales #'s.

If the first gen IS was a failure from a sales standpoint, I can answer why. Even though it is a wonderful car, it is very un-lexus like and it's like wearing a blue tux to an all black tie affair. There were several nice surprises to the IS when I first got mine, and a few downfalls also. In general, it really is not very lexus like. The doors are light, the car is very small and if it were not as nice as it is, would be considered an econobox. Lexus buyers don't buy econoboxes.

If it did not drive so well, I'd never know it was a Lexus if the badge was not on the front. Comparing it to my SC however, the SC is much better built. Lexus nearly took a step backwards with the first gen IS. Fortunately for them, it drives like a dream and satisfies the Lexus urge in all of us, however... it is still just short of an econobox with it's size and lightweight attitude. Comparibly speaking of course, to the other models.
I agree. Thing is, Lexus had the ES and it was a great seller and they were the only company that would sell 2 cars under the same luxury brand under the same price.

A HUGE risk!

So they left the IS interior polorizing, with almost no changes.

Funny but in Europe, the IS debuted as a Lexus in 1997 and all the reviews LOVE the interior, as they see it as very styling and totally different to what everyone else was offereing.

Here, reviewers liked the difference but felt it was TOO different.

I dont see the LF-A as being a major risk for Lexus. It is more an excercise in brand imaging and marketing, rather than pushing the bottom line sales numbers through the roof. The new ES, GS, RX and IS are already doing a superb job for Lexus revenue.

The Lexus LF-A is for Lexus, what the GT40 was for Ford. The car appeals to collectors, but is admired by all. The Lexus LF-A could very well be the shot heard round the world, with the "A" standing for the "Assault" that is bound to happen on German and European automakers' luxury/sportscar division.

Toyota's Lexus division is the most successful luxury brand in the world, and development of high level sports models is inevitable in it's pursuit for perfection. Where the Lexus' beat Mercedes and BMW in standard models, Mercedes and BMW still best Lexus with their AMG and M series lines. The LF-A could be the forebearer for extremely high output engines in the standard Lexus lineup, if the marketing and timing is right.

The LS600hL on the other hand is much riskier for Lexus. While the development of hybrid technology is important (for Toyota, and for their marketing), the sticker price of this vehicle can seriously hinder it's sales if they decide to mass produce this vehicle. The price and size of the car put it in a class with limited appeal cars like the Mercedes Maybach and Volkswagen Phaeton. The Hybrid option is nice, but is counterintuitive to the reason why people buy hybrids. Hybrids save gas, and can save money. While the RX400h is a hybrid, it is still relatively affordable. The price of LS600hL vehicle goes against everything the LS was originally designed for, and goes against the sensibilities of the Hybrid owner. Hybrid technology is a very strong marketing tool for Toyota these days, but LS600hL may just come off as expensive gadgetry/gimmicky.

The LS was originally designed a low cost luxury sedan, that featured features and performance that blew Mercedes and BMW away. A 90K LS Hybrid doesn't blow away the Germans, it's more like they are joining their ranks.

I sincerely hope the LS600hL does well, but there is a high chance that the vehicle will fail.

LF-A, GS450h and LS600h are brand building cars, image cars, halo cars. Total production for all of those wont be more than 5,000 per year, which is around 1% of total lexus sales.

I doubt LS600h will fail. V12 S class doesnt save any gas either when compared to S550. And it starts at $140,000.

but if you can afford a $140,000 S-Class you can give a damn (if you wanted) about gas prices.

Also the type of buyers that want a S600 want one to differentiate themselves from the S500 people. That's the reason why they fork over that extra money. It's like a porsche 911 or a porsche 911 TURBO.

Besides, when you see a S600...you know you're dealing with one of the top world class luxury cars. I know the LS600h is nice. I know it's probably built wonderfully, but will people that normally buy $120K+ cars think so? I'm not sure...

So far it has been positive but it remains to be seen and the German marques aren't going to let them slide in...like they did (IMO) with the initial introduction of the LS. Back then, the MB mentality seemed smug that no Japanese car could dream to encroach on their cars. Well, they've seen what has happened since '89. I bet they are slicing up these cars to predict what they may be in for when Toyota brings out this release.

My prediction is the LF-A will get good press and have modest to slow sales. It may not be a clear winner but the following model year it will continue to edge up. Gee...that sounds familiar. ;)

but if you can afford a $140,000 S-Class you can give a damn (if you wanted) about gas prices.

Also the type of buyers that want a S600 want one to differentiate themselves from the S500 people. That's the reason why they fork over that extra money. It's like a porsche 911 or a porsche 911 TURBO.

Besides, when you see a S600...you know you're dealing with one of the top world class luxury cars. I know the LS600h is nice. I know it's probably built wonderfully, but will people that normally buy $120K+ cars think so? I'm not sure...
That will depend on the area, because in LA I think it might find a market with the celebs

So far it has been positive but it remains to be seen and the German marques aren't going to let them slide in...like they did (IMO) with the initial introduction of the LS. Back then, the MB mentality seemed smug that no Japanese car could dream to encroach on their cars. Well, they've seen what has happened since '89. I bet they are slicing up these cars to predict what they may be in for when Toyota brings out this release.

My prediction is the LF-A will get good press and have modest to slow sales. It may not be a clear winner but the following model year it will continue to edge up. Gee...that sounds familiar. ;)
I can't say it better.

The LF-A, GS450h and the LS600 will have a slow sell volume. If those cars can sell close to what their prediction, that's a winner for them. They just want to build a brand image.

Success or failure is relative to expectations/predictions.

Lexus has a goal of selling 2000 GS450h's in the first year, WORLDWIDE, right? I think that's less than Ferrari sales so it's hardly a stretch. They'll easily find 2000 people who want a fast quiet unique sports sedan with a trunk that can't hold two golf bags. :D

The LS600h will be a halo car as has been said, kind of like the NSX for Acura. Acura has never sold many NSX's but the vehicle is enormously respected from an engineering perspective. It is a masterpiece. The LS600h will be too.

The LS460 will sell well, it's a great successor to the LS430. Better looking, more powerful, more amenities, and hopefully not a huge uptick in price.

I don't know that the GX (haven't checked sales figures) would be considered a success. It's kind of funky - very comfy, but narrow. It will be interesting to see what its future holds. My guess is the LX will get quite a bit bigger (to go after Escalade, GL class sales) and the GX will continue on, as a vehicle more capable off road than the RX and more luxurious. The RX, GX, LX are like the ES, GS, LS progression. There's no 'IS' type of SUV but I can definitely see that coming - an X3 / sporty-ute type of vehicle, and it could do well. It might even be a better hybrid platform than the RX. Maybe it would be built off the new Camry platform.

Lexus will be fine, but many wealthy people I know have NO INTEREST AT ALL in Lexus. They just don't consider it either because they don't think a Japanese car can be luxurious or has the history or prestige. Instead they still think MB, BMW, and even Cadillac.

But if Lexus has problems, then brands like Audi have NO chance of gaining much ground in the U.S. market.

Success or failure is relative to expectations/predictions.

Lexus has a goal of selling 2000 GS450h's in the first year, WORLDWIDE, right? I .
I think is 2000 U.S., 5000 world wide :)

As long as Toyota/Lexus steering is that same boring, lightweight, uninspriing feel, real sports car fanatics will view the LF-A as an expensive Toyota. Sport cars are made for inspirational driving, in another word, the car should be a driver's car, not an appliance. Feeling the bumps in the road and hearing the engine roar are some of the stuff that makes a car a driver's car. If Lexus is able to do this, then they will depart from their traditional philosophy of quiet/smoothness. It's no longer "lexus-like" quiet or "lexus-like" smoothness. It needs character and soul, something Lexus doesn't really have at the moment.

Then again, an exotic shouldn't be made to sell in mass quantitiy. Who wants to see an exotic as much as there are GS300s on the road? I'm just not sure if the LF-A would be such a good idea, if they decide to retain quietness, smoothness, and that aweful boring steering.

Then again, I'm just rambling :p

but if you can afford a $140,000 S-Class you can give a damn (if you wanted) about gas prices.

Also the type of buyers that want a S600 want one to differentiate themselves from the S500 people. That's the reason why they fork over that extra money. It's like a porsche 911 or a porsche 911 TURBO.

Besides, when you see a S600...you know you're dealing with one of the top world class luxury cars. I know the LS600h is nice. I know it's probably built wonderfully, but will people that normally buy $120K+ cars think so? I'm not sure...
so you buy V12 to show the difference, but you buy hybrid only to save gas? :-).

What else would show you power than buying hybrid with 430hp, yet mid 20's mpg, with more tech equipment than nuclear powerplant.

What else would show you power than buying hybrid with 430hp, yet mid 20's mpg, with more tech equipment than nuclear powerplant.

Saving gas is irrelevant to someone buying an LS600h, except to feel like a 'good citizen', although it's still laughable in what is probably a 4500lb car getting 20's mpg.

The benefits of hybrid for the big Lex is the quiet ride and more responsive performance without the 'lag' typical in Lexus transmissions.

If the sales and production targets are confirmed to be at those levels, then it *may* be attainable....but I still don't see Hybrid technology as being a major selling point on vehicles at that price level.

With the advanced technology of modern transmissions, does the hybrid powerplant really improve acceleration over CVT and 7+ gear automatic transmissions?

Lexus sedans are already well known for being extremely quiet, so I think that is a negligible selling point for Hybrid technology in the LS600h.

I'm confident that Toyota's marketing department went through all this many many times before going ahead with their plans...but since this is such a huge shift from their norms, I still have my doubts.

With the advanced technology of modern transmissions, does the hybrid powerplant really improve acceleration over CVT and 7+ gear automatic transmissions?



Give me hybrid over 7spd tranny any day of the week. To be honest with transmissions, you're going to be closer to the point of diminishing return. 7 gears is awefully a lot of gears to be shifting and you'll be at the point where the car will lose time due to the amount of time it takes to shift into each gear. 5 speed (auto) is pushing it already in most cars.

With hybrid, the car overall is more efficient. It may not be efficient cost-wise, but performance-wise, it's there. Shoot, take a look at the GS450h. It practically makes the GS430 it's litter box when it comes to acceleration and gas consumption. I guess it's only time until someone can create energy from nowhere :egads:

Shoot, take a look at the GS450h. It practically makes the GS430 it's litter box when it comes to acceleration and gas consumption.

The GS450h trunk is about the size of my cat's litter box. :D

I still don't see Hybrid technology as being a major selling point on vehicles at that price level...
I think Toyota/Lexus is doing a good job in marketing the hybrid aspect of their cars. People are so distraught over the fact that gas prices are going up, and they use Toyota (as a company) as a benchmark to how all auto companies should be headed to.

Although people may not be thinking of getting a GS450h or LS600h, they are talking about getting a Toyota or Lexus vehicle that is leading the way in fuel efficiency. It may not be perfect, but they do offer the best hybrids in the market. And if not hybrids, Toyota is still touting the idea that they have the most gas efficient cars in the market.

The GS450h and LS600h may not be their top sellers, but everyone is looking at Toyota and Lexus because of them. That by itself is Great Marketing.

I think Toyota/Lexus is doing a good job in marketing the hybrid aspect of their cars. People are so distraught over the fact that gas prices are going up, and they use Toyota (as a company) as a benchmark to how all auto companies should be headed to.

Although people may not be thinking of getting a GS450h or LS600h, they are talking about getting a Toyota or Lexus vehicle that is leading the way in fuel efficiency. It may not be perfect, but they do offer the best hybrids in the market. And if not hybrids, Toyota is still touting the idea that they have the most gas efficient cars in the market.

The GS450h and LS600h may not be their top sellers, but everyone is looking at Toyota and Lexus because of them. That by itself is Great Marketing.


Very true, and well said!

The GS450h trunk is about the size of my cat's litter box. :D
lol

Again, they are not perfect but amazingly the ONLY cars in their class respectively. A huge gamble. More power, even if there is no increase in efficiency, there is no decrease.

I mean, it takes Benz 5.5 liters to make the same 380hp Lexus makes with 4.6 liters.

Where is the tech?

The GS450h trunk is about the size of my cat's litter box. :D
You must have a sabre-tooth tiger at home :p

lol

Again, they are not perfect but amazingly the ONLY cars in their class respectively. A huge gamble. More power, even if there is no increase in efficiency, there is no decrease.

I mean, it takes Benz 5.5 liters to make the same 380hp Lexus makes with 4.6 liters.

Where is the tech?

I think that the MB 5.5l has more potential to make more power if they wanted it. I imagine the power delivery of the two are also a big different. I havent seen any numbers on the GS but I know the S550 makes something like 390 ft/lbs tq at a low RPM, something like 2900-3k IIRC.

tech or no tech, there is no replacement for displacement and low end tq is what needed for luxury cars.

tech or no tech, there is no replacement for displacement and low end tq is what needed for luxury cars.

Right and electric motors are great for lots of torque RIGHT NOW. :thumbup:

My dad was looking at trading his S600 for a new S class. So I said " Dad the LS is very nice."

He was like "I guess so, dont you think that would look like a downgrade. "

Hmm....

Thats is what the risk factor is!

Image

But he loved the Hybrid idea!

Have you seen how the sales numbers for the IS and GS have increased? ES sales will not go down, and the LS is being lauded by nearly everyone that sees it. At least in the US I don't think Lexus has anything to worry about.

My dad was looking at trading his S600 for a new S class. So I said " Dad the LS is very nice."

He was like "I guess so, dont you think that would look like a downgrade. "

Hmm....

Thats is what the risk factor is!

Image

But he loved the Hybrid idea!

Hey show your dad some pics of the LS600hL, he won't think its a downgrade then! It's more of an upgrade! Plus hybrids are very "chic" right now and I have a feeling in the coming years having an "h" by your badge will be more prestigious than an M, S, or AMG.

^^^
Exactly, yeah some downgrade. The LS is an upgrade in features, refinement, quality, reliability, quiet ride, and now the New LS adds style, intuitive technology, and no ugly wheel arches.

But to each their own, the New S-class does have its charms. And a much heftier price tag.

Even if the lexus has more features or whatever, the public will still perceive the s-class as the more prestigous cars. Unfortunately, most people think the more expensive car is always better.


Just know that even if the LS600h is a "downgrade" from an S600, it's still an "upgrade" to the rest of the 80% population (:p).

The LS is an upgrade in features, refinement, quality, reliability, quiet ride, and now the New LS adds style, intuitive technology, and no ugly wheel arches.

Have you looked at a new S class? It has a zillion features. And about refinement and quiet ride, I expect the LS600h to be quieter due to the electric motors, but the new S class is very quiet and probably no louder than the new LS460.

As for reliability, the new LS isn't even out so we'll see. Certainly past history favors Lexus, but I read the initial LS430's had some issues too.

But I fwd'ed a pic of the LS600h to a friend who wants the new S class some time in the future and he was very interested in the looks and capabilities of the new LS600h (luxury and green were kinda interesting to him :D ).

Mike, you make a good point when comparing the Accord Hybrid to the GS450/LS600h, will people pay more for a "performance" hybrid?

Personally, I think they will. Especially when it is an up market, limited production model. As pointed out, these are the people who don't really care too much about gas prices, so why get the GS450/LS600? Prestige - plain and simple. It is the show off factor and they can justify it by saying "yes, but it is a hybrid and it is good for the environment". Which of course we can all reply "You dork, it will take 10 years to recoup the extra cash you paid for that baby over the standard car" - provided gas stays below $3.50 per gallon :)

Hybrid rant... Am I the only one who finds it funny that hybrids can use the HOV lanes in Calif? Don't hybrids get WORSE mileage on the Highway than in stop and go traffic? Aren't we actually HURTING the environment more by letting them use the HOV lanes? Rant over.

Their highway mileage aren't as great as their city mileage, but if you're looking from the mpg standpoint, it's better than 90% of the cars out there. I'm sure 50mpg highway for a civic is a lot better to the environment than a chevy tahoe that does 17mpg or so on the same highway.

The LF-A will fail if it is priced considerably more than the M6 (ie. 120K+), this is Vantage V8 and 911 Turbo territory. The Vantage V8 has a long waiting list and 911 Turbo owners tend to be very loyal, so where are the potential LF-A customers going to come from.

NSX is hands down the Japaneese supercar. All aluminum construction, the first variable valve timing electronic lift engine, mid engine, no power steering, low profile high grip tires (nice lawsuit to boot over those).

I think the LFA will be more of a GT car than a drivers car, the local auto crosses/scca events will sort that out. I have a feeling the LFA will be quiet, refined, cushy, basically... a LEXUS. It will still be great, but not be as hard core as an NSX.

Even if the lexus has more features or whatever, the public will still perceive the s-class as the more prestigous cars. Unfortunately, most people think the more expensive car is always better.


Just know that even if the LS600h is a "downgrade" from an S600, it's still an "upgrade" to the rest of the 80% population (:p).
I am not sure how people will argue V-12 vs V-8 plus hybrid. I have no idea how this will play out.

I am not sure how people will argue V-12 vs V-8 plus hybrid. I have no idea how this will play out.
I am not sure about the rest, but for me, it's clearly the V12 Yo!. :p oh wait.. V12 plus TT YO!. :p :p

Their highway mileage aren't as great as their city mileage, but if you're looking from the mpg standpoint, it's better than 90% of the cars out there. I'm sure 50mpg highway for a civic is a lot better to the environment than a chevy tahoe that does 17mpg or so on the same highway.

Very true, but the fact is, by allowing them unlimited access to the HOV lanes we are using more gas. That's the part I find funny.

I do see your side however - and that is to reward the drivers who purchase more fuel efficient cars. That part does make sense.