the word around the sport is there is some real shady business coming outta the far east. obviously, we all know that toyota isnt gonna do anything half-assed. and we all know that the pockets are mega-deep. right now they are scavenging the garage, picking the best of the best for their 3 team Cup invasion next year. they are paying engineers, crew chiefs and drivers 2 or 3x more than the other teams are paying. truthfully, i dont have a real problem with that. but now the word is, is that they are discounting sponsorship deals. basically subsidizing the funding outta their own pockets. now that, i have a problem with. this will have a ripple effect throughout the sport, because sponsorship money will dry up as they wont want to pay the premiums that less funded teams are asking to be competitive. with the red bull team coming in, i have no doubt that toyota will be successful in the cup series. just like in the truck series. but i really dont like the way that theyre doing business right now.........

RICHMOND, Va. -- Roush Racing president Geoff Smith isn't as concerned with the reportedly large salary increases Toyota is offering to lure personnel as he is the discounts being offered to Nextel Cup sponsors.

"They're attacking price points by offering radical discounts to the sponsorship values that are out there today as a means of attracting corporate sponsors to those teams,'' Smith said before Saturday night's race at Richmond International Raceway.

Smith is afraid Toyota will drive up the cost of racing just as it did in the Craftsman Truck Series the past few years.

"You can see what their impact is on the sponsorship environment there,'' he said.

its open market

its open market
Didn't we learn this in highschool economics?
It's a pure competition -- many firms offer the same product. Therefore there is little to none economic profit on these cars and because of that -- inefficent producers (or racers or whatever) are pushed out.

If their not breaking any rules then they are doing what they have to do to win, a la steinbrenner

NOBODY plays fair in NASCAR. Just watch how these guys drive around the track like madmen trying to bump and spin each other out and you will see just what I mean.
The current champion, Tony Stewart, is, IMO, one of the worst.

If their not breaking any rules then they are doing what they have to do to win, a la steinbrenner
GO TOYOTA!!!

i still dont see the fun in NASCAR.....driving in circles until some1 crashes--toyota should join the BTCC, where it actually requires more skills than keeping your left turn consistent

NOBODY plays fair in NASCAR. Just watch how these guys drive around the track like madmen trying to bump and spin each other out and you will see just what I mean.
The current champion, Tony Stewart, is, IMO, one of the worst.

you have no perspective on nascar. b/c you dont like stewart, you paint with a broad brush. its not a game of bumper cars, like you believe. watch a race and educate yourself before you spout off and look like a hater..............

i still dont see the fun in NASCAR.....driving in circles until some1 crashes--toyota should join the BTCC, where it actually requires more skills than keeping your left turn consistent

see post #8 (with a little less bite, for you :D )

see post #8 (with a little less bite, for you :D )


i've watched races before, thinking i could enjoy it if something did catch my eye (the girls in the stands did) but other than that nothing really....i know it takes skill and all that greatness to drive a car around 200mph and overtake and what have you, but i rather see drivers use their full potential and drive a course full of twisties in both directions--that to me exerts real driving skills

Didn't we learn this in highschool economics?
It's a pure competition -- many firms offer the same product. Therefore there is little to none economic profit on these cars and because of that -- inefficent producers (or racers or whatever) are pushed out.

thats not exactly true in this case. toyota will not be able to land a tier 1 driver (ala earnhardt, gordon, stewart, johnson, etc) when they 1st come in. those drivers are locked in place with long-term contracts. however, the sponsorship deal is another issue. i realize that toyota did this with lexus in the beginning. offer an incredible car for much, much less than your competitors and then take it upmarket (price-wise) once you have established yourself. in marketing, i say go for it. in sports, i have problems. nascar isnt formula one, where the best funded teams always win. the technology (and therefore the costs) are kept down in order to balance the playing field. if toyota isnt careful, they will rattle the cages of the suits in daytona. and im sure that the frances will have no problem telling them to take their budgets elsewhere........

i've watched races before, thinking i could enjoy it if something did catch my eye (the girls in the stands did) but other than that nothing really....i know it takes skill and all that greatness to drive a car around 200mph and overtake and what have you, but i rather see drivers use their full potential and drive a course full of twisties in both directions--that to me exerts real driving skills

how does it take more skill to 50 left turns and 50 right turns, than to make 100 left turns. there is a reason that great road course racers havent done well in nascar. boris said, paul tracey, ron fellows, pj jones.............these guys are world class road course racers. and on nascar road courses, they do farely well. but they dont win. and on an oval, they are dog food. dont discount the fact that its in one direction and they only turn left as to the opinion that they arent as talented. it takes infinitely more precision to drive and set-up a car on ovals.......

how does it take more skill to 50 left turns and 50 right turns, than to make 100 left turns. there is a reason that great road course racers havent done well in nascar. boris said, paul tracey, ron fellows, pj jones.............these guys are world class road course racers. and on nascar road courses, they do farely well. but they dont win. and on an oval, they are dog food. dont discount the fact that its in one direction and they only turn left as to the opinion that they arent as talented. it takes infinitely more precision to drive and set-up a car on ovals.......

Here here! Well said.

I had the same opinion of NASCAR until about two years ago when my girlfriend got me watching. It takes so much talent, for instance, to bump-draft properly, that it absolutely stuns me. For instance, Jeff Gordon was in the top 5 for most of the race two weeks ago in Talladega until he lost his draft partner on the last lap. In less than one lap, he dropped all the way to 15th.

Additionally, the G-forces in a NASCAR race are all in one direction, all the time. So, your body gets very, very tired from bolstering itself to one side of the seat for 2-5 hours. This also takes its toll on the car, where tires get unequally worn down because of the angle of attack is constantly the same and in the same direction.

Watch for a few weeks. especially watch the restrictor plate races, Bristol and Martinsville and you will begin to see why it is so amazing.

drink300
2003 LS430 Parch/Ecru Custom Lux

Isnt nascar by nature a game of what you can get away with? There are all sorts of tricks to make your car faster or last longer before re-fueling. Thats why they have all of those pre and post inspections to make sure people arent "cheating". But the reality is, you keep bending those rules until you get busted and then you find another way to bend the rules.

So toyota's way of saying hello to everyone else is by offering cheap ads...

how does it take more skill to 50 left turns and 50 right turns, than to make 100 left turns. there is a reason that great road course racers havent done well in nascar. boris said, paul tracey, ron fellows, pj jones.............these guys are world class road course racers. and on nascar road courses, they do farely well. but they dont win. and on an oval, they are dog food. dont discount the fact that its in one direction and they only turn left as to the opinion that they arent as talented. it takes infinitely more precision to drive and set-up a car on ovals.......


well i guess we'll find out if nascar drivers can deal with regular road courses (and road rage for that also) because they have 2 road courses this season that they must compete in, if i'm correct...and though the road courses may not be high speeds as their used to, we'll see how much they can deal with steady single file laps with barely any room to overtake one another

well i guess we'll find out if nascar drivers can deal with regular road courses (and road rage for that also) because they have 2 road courses this season that they must compete in, if i'm correct...and though the road courses may not be high speeds as their used to, we'll see how much they can deal with steady single file laps with barely any room to overtake one another

dude, they have 2 road courses in the schedule every year. thats nothing new. and the "ringers" or road course specialists (said, fellows, etc) that some teams bring in still dont win. its not as easy as you would want to think. these cars are 3400 lbs with skinny tires, no traction control, etc. it takes alot to drive one well.....

you have no perspective on nascar. b/c you dont like stewart, you paint with a broad brush. its not a game of bumper cars, like you believe. watch a race and educate yourself before you spout off and look like a hater..............

I've been watching NASCAR for over 40 years....since many of them were on dirt tracks. It is not what I believe or what I "paint" , it is a fact. The sport has steadily deteriorated from a basically civilized autosport where drivers raced sensibly and settled their differences off the track ( sometimes with fisticuffs ) to what has basically become a free-for-all on the track. No, it is not a TOTAL free-for-all...some drivers still have some manners, but a lot of them simply don't impress me ( Stewart being one of them ). Now, if that offends you to hear me call Stewart a dirty driver, I'm sorry, but IMO he ( and some other drivers ) have earned it, this is a public forum, I'm not violating any CL posting rules, and I'm not going to change my view of him just because you ( or others ) don't happen to agree with it.
Now.....WHY are some drivers like this on the track? Partly because they are not allowed to settle their differences OFF the track anymore and fight it out.....so they take it out on each other's cars.

This type of behavior is not just limited to NASCAR either.....we're seeing it more and more in professional baseball as well....public brawls between teams on the field during games.

I've been watching NASCAR for over 40 years....since many of them were on dirt tracks. It is not what I believe or what I "paint" , it is a fact. The sport has steadily deteriorated from a basically civilized autosport where drivers raced sensibly and settled their differences off the track ( sometimes with fisticuffs ) to what has basically become a free-for-all on the track. No, it is not a TOTAL free-for-all...some drivers still have some manners, but a lot of them simply don't impress me ( Stewart being one of them ). Now, if that offends you to hear me call Stewart a dirty driver, I'm sorry, but IMO he ( and some other drivers ) have earned it, this is a public forum, I'm not violating any CL posting rules, and I'm not going to change my view of him just because you ( or others ) don't happen to agree with it.
Now.....WHY are some drivers like this on the track? Partly because they are not allowed to settle their differences OFF the track anymore and fight it out.....so they take it out on each other's cars.

This type of behavior is not just limited to NASCAR either.....we're seeing it more and more in professional baseball as well....public brawls between teams on the field during games.

i completely disagree with your assertion that the majority of drivers are dirty. theyre younger and they get in way over their heads, which in turn causes accidents, but i wouldnt call them dirty. is stewart dirty...........uh yeah at times. so is harvick, busch (both of em) and even gordon. but this is not every lap. for you to say that the drivers "drive around like madmen and try to bump and spin each other out" is moronic. just this weekend, jr backed out of a battle for 1st place b/c he couldnt do it without "roughing" harvick up. he simply passed him later. hardly a madman, wouldnt you say. there is much more contact than there is in open wheel racing, but thats b/c the competition is alot closer.......

OK...lt's just agree to disagree, then like gentlemen.

But you do make some points. In open-wheel racing you can't do that nonsense because when the wheels make contact, the cars don't just skid or spin.....they can flip up end-over-end or roll over, and people can get killed. ( not that people, like Dale Earnhardt, don't occasionally buy the farm in NASCAR either )

Another factor that encourages a lot of aggressive driving in NASCAR is the restrictor-plate rules for the fastest tracks like Daytona and Talladega....a policy I have long opposed. These idiotic rules have most of the cars bunched up at more or less the same speeds regardless of how they are driven, and invariably, in the corners, one car bumps another either accidentally or on purpose, that car spins, takes two more with it, THOSE two more take four more, those four take out eight, and...well, you get the picture. One major accident can take out half the cars in the race in just a couple of seconds.

Anyhow, we got at least a little bit off-topic: Toyota in NASCAR.