Today I got a paintless dent guy come to my house to remove a door ding. He said that Toyota & Lexus has one of the least amount of paint coating layers on their cars. Personally, I think Toyota & Lexus cars paint look the best compare to their competitors in ages. I rarely see any 5-7 years old Lexus cars are dull on the road compare to the German cars. American cars are the worest. What do you guys think?

The paint quality of older Benz's and Lexus's is pretty similar.

Here take a look for yourself:

94' MB S420: link (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=208138957&dealer_id=578154&car_year=1994&search_type=used&num_records=25&make=MB&transmission=&model=S420&distance=0&make2=&address=98335&advanced=&certified=&max_mileage=&max_price=&bkms=1161836864822&sort_type=priceDESC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=1996&color=&start_year=1990&drive=&engine=&fuel=&doors=&style_flag=1&cardist=970)

96' Lexus LS400: link (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=210635774&dealer_id=96636&car_year=1996&search_type=used&num_records=25&make=LEXUS&model=LS400&transmission=&distance=0&address=98335&make2=&advanced=&certified=&max_mileage=&bkms=1161836975553&max_price=&sort_type=priceDESC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=1996&color=&start_year=1990&drive=&engine=&fuel=&doors=&style_flag=1&cardist=2186)

Mind you the Benz is 2 years older than the Lexus I found.

I think it differs with each model.

For example, I own an Acura RL and I know that it has one of the best and most meticulous paint jobs of any mass production car. It is hand sanded and painted at the factory. But on the other hand, the RDX for example is only hand sanded and doesn't receive a paint job with as much attention that the RL receives. It probably goes along something like that with Lexus too. I don't know the details of my SC430 and Range Rover paint jobs but visually they both are almost as good as the RL's minimal orange peal.

I can't say for sure, but my GS paint isn't that great. It's starting to develop cracks already (1999 black onyx). Plus I maintain it all the time. :(

The better quality paint job i've seen are from higher-end european cars.

It depends how you take care of it.
You can't pick out two random examples and just say "well one is better than the other"

The new Mercedes paint is likely the worst looking I have seen of any car producer. Why? ..........Orange peel. More orange peel on the newer Mercedes than any car I have seen on the market.

I expect this from GM, I expect this from Ford (and neither disappoint in that area), but for $60k I expect to buy a car without orange peel all over it in massive amounts.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully understand that these new age paints produce more orange peel, but I also know that ANY clear coat can be sanded smooth and a $60k car should have wet sanding in the final process if orange peel is THIS bad.

Thank god my Mercedes is actually a few years old, it's only lately in the last couple years it has gotten as bad as it has.

Now, Lexus has a little peel to it also, but nowhere near as bad.

The new LS 460 paint process is one of the best in the world, from what I've read.

Here's a topic I know something about. :)

First, Lexus paint thickness is now lower than other manufacturers; they are all around 12-15 microns from the factory. The only anamoly is Mercedes ceramiclear (aka, nanopaint), which is slickly thicker.

The issue with Japanese paints is they tend to be *softer* than German and domestic paints; this of course is a generalization, but it's pretty uniform. For example, Acura/Honda paint is widely considered very soft, on a scale of 1-10 I'd say it's about a 3, maybe a 4. Nissan/Infiniti paint is even worse, it's probably a 1 or 2; it's so soft in fact that it not only marrs easily but is difficult to work on, and prone to early clear coat failure. Toyota/Lexus actually has the best of the Japanese paints, though it is still soft. Not only do they typically have the least orange peel, but the paint is a good mix of easy to correct, and reasonably easy to maintain.

Germany paints, in particular Audi/VW and Mercedes, tend to be very hard. Ceramiclear is a whole different story, it's the only 10/10. BMW is somewhere around average.

Domestic paints are almost all above average for hardness, with Corvettes (only Corvettes, not all Chevys), being a solid 8-9/10.

As for orange peel; aside from wetsanding there isn't a lot a manufacturer car do, and until people stop buying the cars due to excessive OP they aren't going to do anything. New VOC regulations mean more OP using the same paint process, and they won't change that paint process unless it makes them money.

As for dullness after a few years, it depends almost entirely on care and maintenance. A well maintained Neon will have better paint than an abused Lexus.

The new LS 460 paint process is one of the best in the world, from what I've read.

they wetsand it, which is labor intensive and very rare on a production car, mainly reserved for custom paintjobs

Part of the reason I wound up painting my lower panels black to match the rest of my RX300 was peeling paint on the of the rear bumper (closer to the corner) a few months after I had it. I think the black paint has issues with the lack of clearcoat protection.

Here's a topic I know something about. :)

First, Lexus paint thickness is now lower than other manufacturers; they are all around 12-15 microns from the factory. The only anamoly is Mercedes ceramiclear (aka, nanopaint), which is slickly thicker.

The issue with Japanese paints is they tend to be *softer* than German and domestic paints; this of course is a generalization, but it's pretty uniform. For example, Acura/Honda paint is widely considered very soft, on a scale of 1-10 I'd say it's about a 3, maybe a 4. Nissan/Infiniti paint is even worse, it's probably a 1 or 2; it's so soft in fact that it not only marrs easily but is difficult to work on, and prone to early clear coat failure. Toyota/Lexus actually has the best of the Japanese paints, though it is still soft. Not only do they typically have the least orange peel, but the paint is a good mix of easy to correct, and reasonably easy to maintain.

Germany paints, in particular Audi/VW and Mercedes, tend to be very hard. Ceramiclear is a whole different story, it's the only 10/10. BMW is somewhere around average.

Domestic paints are almost all above average for hardness, with Corvettes (only Corvettes, not all Chevys), being a solid 8-9/10.

As for orange peel; aside from wetsanding there isn't a lot a manufacturer car do, and until people stop buying the cars due to excessive OP they aren't going to do anything. New VOC regulations mean more OP using the same paint process, and they won't change that paint process unless it makes them money.

As for dullness after a few years, it depends almost entirely on care and maintenance. A well maintained Neon will have better paint than an abused Lexus.

So who has the better paint jobs?

AUDI and Porshe used to be the best, but I've even seen an AUDI with orange peel. Newer paints only have 10% VOC due to the new regulations are all water based. The paint from my early 90's Del Sol (lime green) has led an outside life and blows away my 2000 RX300 (Black Onyx, pre-clearcoat).

All my older cars have had fab paint, 1990 Accord, 1991 MR2 Green pearl (clear coat). The non-clear coat Toyota paint jobs like Crimson Red, Super White, and Black from that same era fade and look like junk after 15 years, not the case with the old ozone destoying clear coated paints of that era.

Just a fact of life, the majority of paint jobs have gotten worse and even chip easier.

AUDI and Porshe used to be the best, but I've even seen an AUDI with orange peel. Newer paints only have 10% VOC due to the new regulations are all water based. The paint from my early 90's Del Sol (lime green) has led an outside life and blows away my 2000 RX300 (Black Onyx, pre-clearcoat).

All my older cars have had fab paint, 1990 Accord, 1991 MR2 Green pearl (clear coat). The non-clear coat Toyota paint jobs like Crimson Red, Super White, and Black from that same era fade and look like junk after 15 years, not the case with the old ozone destoying clear coated paints of that era.

Just a fact of life, the majority of paint jobs have gotten worse and even chip easier.

Our old beater 87' 325is has lead-based paint so it looks just as good as the day it was made.

The paint jobs on our two 2006 Lexus cars both chip and scuff far easier that any car I've ever owned. Regardless of environmental restrictions, whether self-imposed or not, that tells me all I need to know about Lexus paint quality.

The paint jobs on our two 2006 Lexus cars both chip and scuff far easier that any car I've ever owned. Regardless of environmental restrictions, whether self-imposed or not, that tells me all I need to know about Lexus paint quality.

Problem is all modern cars paint sucks just as bad. Your best bet is to add those new clear film "bras" I think they are mandatory with today's paints.

The new LS 460 paint process is one of the best in the world, from what I've read.
Maybe so, but the LS 460L that was sitting in my local dealership's showroom left a little bit to be desired; maybe it was just the lighting inside the showroom, but the finish of the LS hood did not appear to be as smooth as that on my ES 350. I could see some very faint orange peel/ripples on the LS hood; not that I could say with any certainty that the finish on my ES is flawless, but compared to the LS finish, the finish on mine looked almost glasslike in comparison.

Now mind you--I'm not talking about the paint itself, but the clearcoat and/or whatever was done to finish the paint process. Maybe it was just that particular LS I saw in the showroom, but still a bit disappointing to see in a new-gen Lexus flagship vehicle.

So who has the better paint jobs?

In terms of paint quality or orange peel? If paint quality/hardness/ease of maintenance then Mercedes ceramiclear, Audi/VW, and Vette's.

In terms of orange peel, it's hard to say. I've seen SLR's with OP and Yaris' with none.

As mentioned, paint on *all* modern cars exept ceramiclear is generally inferior to paint 10 years ago. Modern VOC laws have made it soft, prone to orange peel and thinner.

FWIW, almost all factory jobs have OP. The only "OP free" paint jobs I've seen are very expensive aftermarket jobs. The best paint I've ever seen was on a '70 AAR Cuda, and it was a ~$20,000 job.

In terms of orange peel, it's hard to say. I've seen SLR's with OP and Yaris' with none.


You've seen a Yaris with literally no orange peel? I've NEVER seen a car (that I've inspected) without orange peel - even the new LS460 I was checking out on the showroom floor yesterday. I mean the paint was nice as hell and had very little orange peel - but there was still an obvious amount of it.

In terms of paint quality or orange peel? If paint quality/hardness/ease of maintenance then Mercedes ceramiclear, Audi/VW, and Vette's.

In terms of orange peel, it's hard to say. I've seen SLR's with OP and Yaris' with none.

As mentioned, paint on *all* modern cars exept ceramiclear is generally inferior to paint 10 years ago. Modern VOC laws have made it soft, prone to orange peel and thinner.

FWIW, almost all factory jobs have OP. The only "OP free" paint jobs I've seen are very expensive aftermarket jobs. The best paint I've ever seen was on a '70 AAR Cuda, and it was a ~$20,000 job.Wow, $20K for a paint job? Interesting.

Hypothetically, how do you figure out (or what questions do you ask), of any paint shop to figure out if they can do the $20K type of quality paint jobs?

Wow, $20K for a paint job? Interesting.

Hypothetically, how do you figure out (or what questions do you ask), of any paint shop to figure out if they can do the $20K type of quality paint jobs?

There are not many questions that you can ask and expect to get an honest answer. The best bet is to get recommendations from prior jobs performed and go and see for yourself. A $20,000 job is not out of the question. One of my "garage/trailer queens was painted in 1986 at a cost of $15,000.

You've seen a Yaris with literally no orange peel? I've NEVER seen a car (that I've inspected) without orange peel - even the new LS460 I was checking out on the showroom floor yesterday. I mean the paint was nice as hell and had very little orange peel - but there was still an obvious amount of it.

I was being faceatious, but ya I've seen Yaris's (Yarii?) with less OP than SLR's. I've not seen a factory painted car with no OP.

I've seen very few cars with no OP, one was the 20k job.

Wow, $20K for a paint job? Interesting.

Hypothetically, how do you figure out (or what questions do you ask), of any paint shop to figure out if they can do the $20K type of quality paint jobs?

As mentioned there isn't much you can ask, becuase unless you know the paint process if they are worth 20k they will know a hell of a lot more than you. :) You just go by recommendation and visual inspection of prior work, reputation and feeling good with the shop/painter. As for what a 10K+ job gets you; a quality paint (glasurit etc.) little to no OP, runs, fisheyes, solvent pops, good hardness, no overspray, etc.

Here is a link to that car, btw.

http://gtaindetail.com/pics/cuda073006/m.html

You could read the newspaper at 20 feet in the reflection, it's pretty wild.

Problem is all modern cars paint sucks just as bad. Your best bet is to add those new clear film "bras" I think they are mandatory with today's paints.

I don't know. The '04 S2000 and '03 330i I owned previous to the IS were pretty good for a modern paint job. No issues at all with chips or scuffs.

Here's a topic I know something about. :)

First, Lexus paint thickness is now lower than other manufacturers; they are all around 12-15 microns from the factory. The only anamoly is Mercedes ceramiclear (aka, nanopaint), which is slickly thicker.

The issue with Japanese paints is they tend to be *softer* than German and domestic paints; this of course is a generalization, but it's pretty uniform. For example, Acura/Honda paint is widely considered very soft, on a scale of 1-10 I'd say it's about a 3, maybe a 4. Nissan/Infiniti paint is even worse, it's probably a 1 or 2; it's so soft in fact that it not only marrs easily but is difficult to work on, and prone to early clear coat failure. Toyota/Lexus actually has the best of the Japanese paints, though it is still soft. Not only do they typically have the least orange peel, but the paint is a good mix of easy to correct, and reasonably easy to maintain.

Germany paints, in particular Audi/VW and Mercedes, tend to be very hard. Ceramiclear is a whole different story, it's the only 10/10. BMW is somewhere around average.

Domestic paints are almost all above average for hardness, with Corvettes (only Corvettes, not all Chevys), being a solid 8-9/10.

As for orange peel; aside from wetsanding there isn't a lot a manufacturer car do, and until people stop buying the cars due to excessive OP they aren't going to do anything. New VOC regulations mean more OP using the same paint process, and they won't change that paint process unless it makes them money.

As for dullness after a few years, it depends almost entirely on care and maintenance. A well maintained Neon will have better paint than an abused Lexus.

I'll take your word for it:)

older Lexus paints seemed more durable. Diamond White Pearl is very tough. my 95 ES had it and the paint was much thicker, harder and more resilient than the paint on my 01.
I agree Lexus paint is now soft and chips easy.

That's the same with almost every manufacturer. The new VOC laws in '98 really limited what they could do to keep paint hard; which is why almost all paint is now so soft and prone to chipping (and, incidentally, why it tends to have more OP now than ever before).

Current Lexus paints are also the most interesting of the Japanese brands, imo. GWP on the new IS's is a fantastic color that must be a nightmare to apply in the factory. The only thing I can think of that's close would be Nissan's Brickyard Red, but they discontinued that.

You guys seem to have covered this topic pretty well.....there isn't a whole lot I can add. In general, Toyota/Lexus paint jobs are the best if you define " best " as the smoothest with the most gloss and the least amount of orange peel. The Matador Red is an especially stunning paint job. EPA painting regulations sometimes determine what kind of paint jobs you are going to get on the average car. In general, though, Hyundai / Kia paint jobs have improved the most in recent years ( just like everything else on their vehicles ) while American-nameplate vehicles still seem to have second-rate paint jobs, except for some Cadillacs such as the STS.

You guys seem to have covered this topic pretty well.....there isn't a whole lot I can add. In general, Toyota/Lexus paint jobs are the best if you define " best " as the smoothest with the most gloss and the least amount of orange peel. The Matador Red is an especially stunning paint job. EPA painting regulations sometimes determine what kind of paint jobs you are going to get on the average car. In general, though, Hyundai / Kia paint jobs have improved the most in recent years ( just like everything else on their vehicles ) while American-nameplate vehicles still seem to have second-rate paint jobs, except for some Cadillacs such as the STS.

Thats not what Picus said.

In terms of paint quality or orange peel? If paint quality/hardness/ease of maintenance then Mercedes ceramiclear, Audi/VW, and Vette's.

In terms of orange peel, it's hard to say. I've seen SLR's with OP and Yaris' with none.

As mentioned, paint on *all* modern cars exept ceramiclear is generally inferior to paint 10 years ago. Modern VOC laws have made it soft, prone to orange peel and thinner.

FWIW, almost all factory jobs have OP. The only "OP free" paint jobs I've seen are very expensive aftermarket jobs. The best paint I've ever seen was on a '70 AAR Cuda, and it was a ~$20,000 job.

mmarshall and I were talking about two different things really. I am more concerned with thickness and hardness than OP. In terms of OP and gloss paint varies so much from car to car that it's really hard to say who is "best". Lexus is definitely one of the better ones in that regard so we actually agree. :). In terms of "hardness" and thickness Merc, Audi, VW, and most Domestics are at the top, with Lexus being near the middle. Cheers.

mmarshall and I were talking about two different things really. I am more concerned with thickness and hardness than OP. In terms of OP and gloss paint varies so much from car to car that it's really hard to say who is "best". Lexus is definitely one of the better ones in that regard so we actually agree. :). In terms of "hardness" and thickness Merc, Audi, VW, and most Domestics are at the top, with Lexus being near the middle. Cheers.

oh, now i see :thumbup:

mmarshall and I were talking about two different things really. I am more concerned with thickness and hardness than OP. In terms of OP and gloss paint varies so much from car to car that it's really hard to say who is "best". Lexus is definitely one of the better ones in that regard so we actually agree. :). In terms of "hardness" and thickness Merc, Audi, VW, and most Domestics are at the top, with Lexus being near the middle. Cheers.

Picus, as a detailer, don't you prefer cars that are near middle of the road as opposed to hard such as VW? I find VWs a pain to work on. "Hardness" I guess would benefit the average consumer who doesn't get his/her car detailed but as a non-professional detailer, I find it's much easier working with "softer" paints.

I think it differs with each model.

For example, I own an Acura RL and I know that it has one of the best and most meticulous paint jobs of any mass production car. It is hand sanded and painted at the factory. But on the other hand, the RDX for example is only hand sanded and doesn't receive a paint job with as much attention that the RL receives. It probably goes along something like that with Lexus too. I don't know the details of my SC430 and Range Rover paint jobs but visually they both are almost as good as the RL's minimal orange peal.


Yea I noticed this. My TL and RL have no Orange Peel, and its paint job is as good as my Audi was. I had a huge DOOR ding on my TL (3 inches long) and had to take it to a dent guy and he got it out, but surprisingly it didn't break the paint! Then my G35 had some bad orange peel and so did our Camrys.

Yea I noticed this. My TL and RL have no Orange Peel, and its paint job is as good as my Audi was. I had a huge DOOR ding on my TL (3 inches long) and had to take it to a dent guy and he got it out, but surprisingly it didn't break the paint! Then my G35 had some bad orange peel and so did our Camrys.

I have inspected my friend's 05 TL (the gold color) up close and there's definitely a noticeable amount of orange peel there - no question. I put it side by side with my boss' Acura RL of roughly the same color (it is the last year of the older body style though) and would say the quality was about identical to my friend's TL.
My 06 Audi (optional silver metallic) I'd say is roughly equal in terms of OP but as we have been discussing thickness - my back passenger side car door smacked into my garage door siding pretty hard one day when I forgot the door was open and pulled into the garage. The paint was scuffed badly but you still couldn't see through to the metal. I was impressed and also glad since it's not enough damage to be charged for on the lease turn-in.

My parent's 05 Camry XLE (gold also... lol) had quite a bit of OP in it... side by side my dad's 02 F-150 (red) has quite a bit less OP than their camry does. But my 99 GS400 had less OP than his F-150 did.

With all that said, the new LS460 has the least OP I've seen in any factory job to date. It also has a very strange 'feel' to it... I don't know how to describe it but I ran my finger lightly over one at the dealership and it most definitely had a different tactile feel to it than the GS450H that was right next to it.

There's a great detailer here in my area who has shown some before and after wetsanding pics and does a great job of getting rid of OP.

Here is a link to that car, btw.

http://gtaindetail.com/pics/cuda073006/m.html

You could read the newspaper at 20 feet in the reflection, it's pretty wild.

Cool. :thumbup: Nice rims. :p

http://gtaindetail.com/pics/cuda073006/e.jpg

Well I have WDP White Diamond Pearl, and it might be done with a different process but definitely no orange peel.

I have inspected my friend's 05 TL (the gold color) up close and there's definitely a noticeable amount of orange peel there - no question. I put it side by side with my boss' Acura RL of roughly the same color (it is the last year of the older body style though) and would say the quality was about identical to my friend's TL.
My 06 Audi (optional silver metallic) I'd say is roughly equal in terms of OP but as we have been discussing thickness - my back passenger side car door smacked into my garage door siding pretty hard one day when I forgot the door was open and pulled into the garage. The paint was scuffed badly but you still couldn't see through to the metal. I was impressed and also glad since it's not enough damage to be charged for on the lease turn-in.

My parent's 05 Camry XLE (gold also... lol) had quite a bit of OP in it... side by side my dad's 02 F-150 (red) has quite a bit less OP than their camry does. But my 99 GS400 had less OP than his F-150 did.

With all that said, the new LS460 has the least OP I've seen in any factory job to date. It also has a very strange 'feel' to it... I don't know how to describe it but I ran my finger lightly over one at the dealership and it most definitely had a different tactile feel to it than the GS450H that was right next to it.

There's a great detailer here in my area who has shown some before and after wetsanding pics and does a great job of getting rid of OP.

Picus, as a detailer, don't you prefer cars that are near middle of the road as opposed to hard such as VW? I find VWs a pain to work on. "Hardness" I guess would benefit the average consumer who doesn't get his/her car detailed but as a non-professional detailer, I find it's much easier working with "softer" paints.

In general I prefer working on harder paints. When I say "harder" I mean in the 6/7/8 range, not ceramiclear or vette paint which are so hard that they are different animals all together. Why do I like working on harder paints? It's easier to finish down clean on them. I use a rotary for 75% of the work that I do, so correcting marring is relatively easy with the right combination of pad and compound; however soft paints tend to haze so easily that it often takes as much or more time correcting the hazing and finishing down smooth than it does to correct deep defects on hard paint. Does that make sense?

To give you an example, take an Infiniti G35 and an Audi A4, both '03 both moderate condition. Now straight away we know the G35 will be easier to correct and the A4 will likely have hard paint (in the 7/8 range on my make believe scale), so obviously we're going to take different approaches, on the A4 I would use a heavy compound + a yellow pad @1500 rpm, on the G I would use an orange pad, medium compound and less speed; now you'll have to trust me when I say I've done enough cars that they've become predictable, so I know the A4 would require one more step, 106FF or another finishing polish on a grey pad @1300, and it would be perfectly clean, no haze. The G, on the other hand *normally* requires two more steps, one to clean up the haze and then one to finish down without any micromarring. So the G, while easier to correct, will take more time, and is incidentally a lot more frustrating. To add to this, it's almost always the case that cars with harder paint are in better shape because they are easier to maintain. I see so many *mangled* Infiniti's/Acuras it's really sick. Most of the German cars I see are in good to moderate condition, since they resist scratching a bit better.

For someone with a PC, midrange paint (Toyota/Lexus/some Acuras/some BMWs) is probably the easiest to deal with.

I hope this makes sense.

FWIW, as I mentioned in 10 years I have only seen one factory finish with *no* orange peel, a Rolls Royce Phantom.

Cool. :thumbup: Nice rims. :p



:) At least they are staggered!

Makes total sense, thanks for the insight.

FWIW, I use a PC, I don't have much experience with a rotary.

I agree. I prefer harder paint because they resist swirls better than softer paint (in general), but they are harder to fix than softer paint. One has it's advantage over the other. Luckily for me, rotary will tackle most surface jobs i've done. :)