Source: Automotive News special email alert
Link: www.oilgelsettlement.com

Mark Rechtin - Automotive News - January 8, 2007 -

LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. has quietly settled a class-action lawsuit that covers about 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have been damaged by engine oil sludge.

Details of the settlement, which allows for third-party mediation of sludge claims rejected by Toyota, have been mailed to 7.5 million current and previous owners.

Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.

Unhappy customers had no remedy other than hiring a lawyer to go after Toyota.

Under the agreement, owners whose claims have been denied by Toyota may submit them to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.

"This settlement breathes life into claims that have been dead for years," said Gary Gambel, a lawyer for plaintiffs who sued Toyota. "This is not a settlement that gives a few dollars to everyone. The relief is exactly tied to the problems and damages that someone might have."

About 3.3 million Toyota vehicles are susceptible to oil sludge, which can cause thousands of dollars in damage and require replacement of the engine.

Sludge is gelled oil that fails to lubricate engine parts. It can lead to damage, often requiring a new engine at a cost that can exceed $10,000. Complaints about sludged engines have plagued several carmakers, but Toyota's troubles have been especially controversial in light of its reputation for vehicle quality.

The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation.

When a customer takes a sludge-caked engine to a dealership, there is usually a "clean-out" procedure. The head is pulled and a service technician tries try to steam out the sludge. If that doesn't work, the engine must be replaced.

Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.

Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.

The agreement does not find Toyota at fault.

Damages that can be recovered include loss in value of the vehicle and incidental costs, such as rental cars. Past lawyers' fees, mental anguish and bodily injuries are not covered.

A Toyota spokesman said the agreement is not a defeat for the automaker.

"The settlement validates the customer support program we implemented four years ago," Xavier Dominicis said.

"The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."

Plaintiff lawyers disagree. They say Toyota failed to communicate the extent of the problem to its dealers and customers. Toyota's appeal process also meant hiring a lawyer, which many consumers could not afford. It costs nothing to file an appeal with Ates.

"The consumer only needs to show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes," Gambel said. "You don't need to prove where the sludge came from, or explain your driving habits. If you have oil sludge, Toyota pays" the consumer.

Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.

Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.

I'm not taking Toyota's side on this, but the problem of poor vehicle maintenance is probably the biggest single cause of exposing the inherent sludge-creation problem in their engines. If people would just do the simple maintenance, they probably wouldn't be stuck in this predicament. I mean, how hard is it to remind yourself to get the oil changed every 3000 miles?

I'm not taking Toyota's side on this, but the problem of poor vehicle maintenance is probably the biggest single cause of exposing the inherent sludge-creation problem in their engines. If people would just do the simple maintenance, they probably wouldn't be stuck in this predicament. I mean, how hard is it to remind yourself to get the oil changed every 3000 miles?

True, but not all engines have an equal tolerence to extending a couple of oil changes. The Toyota / Lexus 3.0 L is notorious for being unforgiving, mainly because the oil runs hot from small oil cooling passageways. This was done for emissions reasons...the designers wanted a high engine temperature, and the engine is fine as long as you are religious about changing the oil regularly every few months or using synthetic oil, which is far more resistant to high-temperature breakdown than regular petroleum-based oil.

Frankly, I think that is also part of the problem.............Toyota should have recommended synthetic oil for this engine and didn't. Many people, however, balk at the high price of synthetic, and maybe Toyota's reasoning for not recommending it may have been a concern that it would hurt the Camry's huge sales figures.

Ordinarily, I don't see a real need for synthetic oil for non-turbo gas engines, except in extreme-climate areas like the Desert Southwest in summer or the Upper Plains/ Canada in winter, but this non-turbo engine may be an exception, especially for those who want long oil-change intervals and are not willing to change conventional oil at reasonable intervals.

3000 miles is a marketing ploy from quick lube stores, and well, if you use the crappy filters and oil they use then maybe you should do ever 3k miles, anyway... but the fact remains that many of those sludged engines had their oil changed per the factory recommendations in the manual (likely every 5000 miles is what the manual recommended) and with oil that met Toyota's ratings and requirements... and they still sludged.

Granted all engines will sludge over time, but dying outright from nothing more than sludge within the first 100k miles and adhering to a change schedule of every 5k miles or less... that's ridiculous.

My girlfriends step-father loves toyotas. Toyota Trucks to be mroe specific.

I detailed his truck as a birthday gift last year and while I drove it to the shop (space a local garage lets me use on the weekends), I noticed his "check engine" light was on. I alter noticed his tires were bald. After giving him his car back I mentioned all this to him and he even claims he hasn't chainged the oil either. I asked why, and he said "Its a toyota, it'll last forever"...
joy

I'm not taking Toyota's side on this, but the problem of poor vehicle maintenance is probably the biggest single cause of exposing the inherent sludge-creation problem in their engines. If people would just do the simple maintenance, they probably wouldn't be stuck in this predicament. I mean, how hard is it to remind yourself to get the oil changed every 3000 miles?
not to mention that Toyota has already increased the warranty on the those specific models, as they do when there is an major problem.

But you still have to show that you maintained your car properly, or no dice.

audi had this exact problem w/ their 1.8t motors. The sh1tty thing was, it was due to Audi and their claims the motor can go for x miles without oil change in between. It's resulted in lots of failed motors and Audi to rewrite their service interval.

Now on to those Camry transmissions ;)

As well as ES350's ;)

"The settlement validates the customer support program we implemented four years ago," Xavier Dominicis said.

"The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."

That's it in a nutshell. "We're not saying there ever was a fault, simply improper maintenance by consumers, HOWEVER we have always stood behind our product and will continue to do so as you see today at this moment".

GO TOYOTA!

Holy moly.:eek2: 3 millions cars. :yikes:

If 10% of the cars need the engine changed at roughly $10k per engine, that is 3 billion dollars. :yikes:

Holy moly.:eek2: 3 millions cars. :yikes:

If 10% of the cars need the engine changed at roughly $10k per engine, that is 3 billion dollars. :yikes:

Nah... it's 'up to' 10k per engine and that's what the customers were paying the dealerships 'up to' for the replacements. Look at Toyota's actual cost on warranty work and parts and I bet it's more like 2k parts and labor per engine for Toyota... and it's likely nowhere near 10% of the engines needing a full replacement, either. I mean Mazda's RX8 engines are considered to have an extremely high rate of failure and so far they're up to 5%.

Pretty much water under the bridge.. they took responsibility and made it right to the owners. They *could* have been a bit more forthcoming early on, but nonetheless they did the right thing and at the end of the day, that's what matters. :thumbup::thumbup:

:egads: Sorry but Toyota didn't do the 'right thing' until they got sued.

I don't call that "taking responsibility and making it right"... I call that "being stubborn until a pack of lawyers presents the case to a judge and the judge threatens you with hefty fines".

How do you check if you have engine sludge?!?

:egads: Sorry but Toyota didn't do the 'right thing' until they got sued.

I don't call that "taking responsibility and making it right"... I call that "being stubborn until a pack of lawyers presents the case to a judge and the judge threatens you with hefty fines".

The people with Toyota and Lexus goggles will never see this that way. I for one don't own a pair.

3000 miles is a marketing ploy from quick lube stores, and well, if you use the crappy filters and oil they use then maybe you should do ever 3k miles, anyway... but the fact remains that many of those sludged engines had their oil changed per the factory recommendations in the manual (likely every 5000 miles is what the manual recommended) and with oil that met Toyota's ratings and requirements... and they still sludged.

Granted all engines will sludge over time, but dying outright from nothing more than sludge within the first 100k miles and adhering to a change schedule of every 5k miles or less... that's ridiculous.

No. This is incorrect. It is NOT a ploy of quick-lube shops....that is a myth. Even Consumer Reports, so well-versed on most auto issues, has let themselves be duped to some extent with this. 5000 miles, regardless of what is in the Owners' Manual, is OK of you are driving long distances, at moderate temperatures, on uncongested roads, with little traffic, or using synthctic oil, but it is clearly TOO LONG when you deal with the conditions many of us do today with endless stop-and-go traffic, regular petroleum oil, and short trips. 3 months/ 3000 miles is best under those conditions....you can go to maybe 4 months if you don't have the 3000 miles yet after 3 months.

My oil gets changed every 3-4 months with a factory filter and Castrol dino oil...either by myself in the driveway or in the dealer service bay, depending if I have the time...and I have never had any engine oil-related problems.

I do agree with you, however, that junk oil filters, poor-quality oil, and a poorly-done job, can lead to problems. That's why I avoid Jiffy Lube and other dime-store oil-change shops like the plague.

That's it in a nutshell. "We're not saying there ever was a fault, simply improper maintenance by consumers, HOWEVER we have always stood behind our product and will continue to do so as you see today at this moment".

GO TOYOTA!


That is typical settlement language, they get to claim nobody has admitted any wrongdoing.

Since, just on the Lexus side, it is reached in early 07 and the models/years affected are ES300 1997 through 2002 and RX300 1999 through 2002, it took quite a while and a lawsuit for some serious standing behind the product to happen.

My 99 ES300 had this happen, then as now with a defect, there is the claim it is rare and so few owners experiencing it.

In my case it required the manager of a Mobil Lube Express calling and demanding to know what was being pulled on me in order for me to avoid being charged for the work to repair the damage caused by the gel. I won't say it was huge fight but it was enough of a tussle for it have been an inconvenience to have to prove I should not be charged.

At that time I accepted it was supposedly rare for that to have happened and now I see quite the contrary. Also it was never pointed out to me that there was an established extended warranty approach to cover this because I was made to think it so rare and as if somewhat of a favor was being done for me in not charging me for the work.

The car was never the same after the valve job as before it ever gelled and needed the work, though repaired, rougher idle etc. and is the reason I traded it.

How do you check if you have engine sludge?!?

If you pull off your oil filler cap you'll see oil the consistency of yogurt. There's no mistaking it.

I don't know if there are lesser gelling instances where this wouldn't happen, but that's what I saw.

That is typical settlement language, they get to claim nobody has admitted any wrongdoing.



Yes, but in a case like this, where you have a questionable engine design combined with SOME (not all) owner neglect, a compromise decision is about the best you can come up with that is fair to each side.

:egads: Sorry but Toyota didn't do the 'right thing' until they got sued.

I don't call that "taking responsibility and making it right"... I call that "being stubborn until a pack of lawyers presents the case to a judge and the judge threatens you with hefty fines".

The people with Toyota and Lexus goggles will never see this that way. I for one don't own a pair.

Exactly.

(and I don't own a pair of those glasses either)

:egads: Sorry but Toyota didn't do the 'right thing' until they got sued.

I don't call that "taking responsibility and making it right"... I call that "being stubborn until a pack of lawyers presents the case to a judge and the judge threatens you with hefty fines".

Judges and juries, especially at the circuit court level, don't always settle cases either. Many verdicts are appealed by either side, for various reasons.

Higher-level courts and judges often overturn verdicts from lower levels. Toyota, of course, being one of the largest and richest companies in the world, has an almost endless amount of money to pay their lawyers to keep appealing.

That is why, IMO, those subject to a settlement here should take up Toyota's offer to settle while they still CAN. If they hold out for more, and Toyota decides to fight it, that's it......this case, trust me, won't be settled for YEARS.

:egads: Sorry but Toyota didn't do the 'right thing' until they got sued.

I don't call that "taking responsibility and making it right"... I call that "being stubborn until a pack of lawyers presents the case to a judge and the judge threatens you with hefty fines".

To a company like Toyota, what's one judge? :uh:

Judges and juries, especially at the circuit court level, don't always settle cases either. Many verdicts are appealed by either side, for various reasons.

Higher-level courts and judges often overturn verdicts from lower levels. Toyota, of course, being one of the largest richest companies in the world, as an almost endless pool of money to pay their lawyers to appeal.

That is why, IMO, those subject to a settlement here should take up Toyota's offer to settle while they still CAN. If they hold out for more, and Toyota decides to fight it, that's it......this case, trust me, won't be settled for YEARS.

To a company like Toyota, what's one judge? :uh:

Judges and juries, especially at the circuit court level, don't always settle cases either. Many verdicts are appealed by either side, for various reasons.

Higher-level courts and judges often overturn verdicts from lower levels. Toyota, of course, being one of the largest richest companies in the world, as an almost endless pool of money to pay their lawyers to appeal.

That is why, IMO, those subject to a settlement here should take up Toyota's offer to settle while they still CAN. If they hold out for more, and Toyota decides to fight it, that's it......this case, trust me, won't be settled for YEARS.

They need to settle the engine issues so they can focus on the transmission issues. :D

As well as ES350's ;)

That should have been ES350BOB's post. I think you beat him to it. :p j/k

That should have been ES350BOB's post. I think you beat him to it. :p j/k


That would be even funnier than it is if not for the length of time people have been complaining about them, long before I even knew I had a transmission problem.

No. This is incorrect. It is NOT a ploy of quick-lube shops....that is a myth. Even Consumer Reports, so well-versed on most auto issues, has let themselves be duped to some extent with this.

:egads:
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but when are you going realize your opinion does not = fact? You have a habit of telling people they're flat-out wrong in cases when there is no actual right or wrong answer, and I think it's because you have an extremely high regard for your opinion.;)

There is no "absolute truth" to proper oil change intervals. The closest I've come to it is the results of countless oil tests on various forums including especially BITOG forums... and most of those tests tend to promote higher mileage oil changes as being completely safe.

But regardless... it's a complex variable function of the vehicle make/model/motor in question (design, oil capacity, oil delivery system, condition of the motor, etc), driving conditions, the oil being used (detergent and antioxident packages, base stock, viscosity, etc), the filter, a little bit of luck, and a whole lot of preference on the driver's part (ie: "If I can save even an immeasurable amount of wear or sludge buildup by changing at 5k instead of 8k then I will", vs the guy who feels it's not worth the extra time and money when the engine will likely outlast the rest of the car anyway no matter what he does with the oil- neither is necessarily correct but at some point the line must be drawn).

To a company like Toyota, what's one judge? :uh:
It was an expression. I didn't mean a judge literally told them he'd fine them a bunch of money if they didn't take care of things. That wasn't the point of my post at all.

Thanks.. i'm not sure i exactly understand - "take off the oil filter cap" - do you mean just the filter or the cap on the filter? I don't think I've ever remove the cap off the oil filter..?

Oh dear, I think I'll sell my Lexus and tell everyone to sell them and buy VWs instead....teh sky is falling.....

The people with Toyota and Lexus goggles will never see this that way. I for one don't own a pair.
that still doesnt change the fact that Toyota has changed warranty policy for these cars some 4 years ago, and gave longer warranty for these people.

Only thing that the settlement changes is that instead of suing Toyota, customer can go to mediator who they dont have to pay...

If you havent maintained your car per toyota specifications, you still wont get anything, sludge or no sludge.

:egads:
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but when are you going realize your opinion does not = fact? You have a habit of telling people they're flat-out wrong in cases when there is no actual right or wrong answer, and I think it's because you have an extremely high regard for your opinion.;)


I don't post things for my own regard. If I did, it would be a waste of time...I already KNOW what I think. Most of what I post is for the benefit of others....including you. If you think otherwise, feel free to ignore my posts. I don't answer every post I disagree with, either.......even on the DEBATE thread. If I did, I would be up all night......and I'm getting too old for that crap.



There is no "absolute truth" to proper oil change intervals.

True...and I never said otherwise. But even if the oil itself does not suffer viscosity breakdown ( as dino oil does at high temperatures ) the additives and detergents wear out. Those oil additives perform a number of important functions besides just general oil lubrication and heat absorbtion.......cleansing of deposits, anti-scuff action, evaporation of moisture, suspension of engine-metal-wear shave particles, etc......
But....for MOST of the type of driving we do today in urban and suburban areas, 3 months / 3000 miles is generally best. That is a fact, not an opinion. Today's endless stop-and-go driving is murder on engine oil, even with the good quality oil we have today ( SM grade, now ). And in fact, many automakers agree. For " severe service " intervals, which is what most of us actually encounter today, they recommend about half of the standard 7500 mile interval......3000-4000 miles, which is pretty much what I said.
Several automakers have tried out on-board computers that " monitor " oil condition based on number of cold starts, short trips, starts/stops, engine load, etc.....and signal for an oil change after a certain number of them, but experience with these devices has shown that the engines don't stay as clean as they do with standard 3/3000 changes. BMW, for example, has had more warranty work and engine replacements with these oil monitor devices than they did the old-fashioned way with regular oil changes every few months.

So......CAN you stretch oil changes? Sure you can. Will the engine suffer? In many, if not most, cases, yes. And some engines simply will not put up with it.....they will bite you......as the topic of this whole thread to start with....the Toyota / Lexus 3.0L V6.

So...I hope that clears up our disagreement a little. I'm not saying that oil change recommendations, even mine, are cast in stone. But recommendations are made for a good reason.....experience has often shown it.

Thanks.. i'm not sure i exactly understand - "take off the oil filter cap" - do you mean just the filter or the cap on the filter? I don't think I've ever remove the cap off the oil filter..?

Not the "oil filter cap" - the "oil filler cap". Top of your engine where you pour the oil in.

All I know is that I check my oil monthly and on top of that the computers in my Porsche and Audi's (not sure about our LS, going to have to ask the wife) tell me when I need change my oil or stop by the dealer for regular service. Therefore, I never experience the infamous "idiot lights". The same goes for my grocery beater.

If you had this in the car you'd know it if you have owned the car prior to it happening.

The idle gets rougher for no reason and has an uneven sound to it, there is a vibration that is present that was otherwise not and there is, in my case, smoke present in the exhaust, not a blue or white smoke, but more of a light soot-like smoke that you had not had before. The, in my case, light soot-like smoke you will certainly notice having backed out of a spot you were in.

All I know is that I check my oil monthly and on top of that the computers in my Porsche and Audi's (not sure about our LS, going to have to ask the wife) tell me when I need change my oil or stop by the dealer for regular service. Therefore, I never experience the infamous "idiot lights". The same goes for my grocery beater.

My Audi got its first service at 5200 miles per the onboard computer which of course measures driving conditions, throttle, RPM, trip distance, etc, and thus is well aware that I do mostly city driving and I'm a relatively aggressive driver in my Audi... at least in terms of acceleration.:D

My second interval, per the onboard computer, came at 15,800 miles. 10,600 miles later. The oil was in there the entire time. *gasp* Audi's engineers must have some diabolical plan to recommend harmful oil change intervals to me via my factory manual and onboard computer so that I will need an engine rebuild at 100k miles and hopefully will get it done at the dealer so they'll make a killing off of me. Nevermind the fact that they'd be alienating me as a future customer if that happened.
It just doesn't make sense that the engineers would purposely recommend an interval several times longer than is actually advisable... especially considering most other maintenance intervals in my manual are, if anything, excessive (change cabin air filter at 15k miles? right...)
So the only logical explanation left is that mmarshall is smarter than all of the engineering brainpowered combined at Audi, and, well come to think of it I think almost every single car company in existance today, as I can't recall the last time I've seen a 3000 mile interval recommended in a factory manual.
Come to think of it the only time I DO see a 3000 mile interval recommended... it's being recommended by the places that stand to profit from increased intervals - the places that sell oil and/or sell oil changes.

Who would'a'thunk it?:D

Your supposedly able to go 15k between service intervals on your A4 BTW.

Your supposedly able to go 15k between service intervals on your A4 BTW.

True... I think the first interval is at 5k miles for obvious reasons, then from there is goes 15k, 30k, 45k, etc

True... I think the first interval is at 5k miles for obvious reasons, then from there is goes 15k, 30k, 45k, etc

Same goes for our A6 (has about 20k miles on it), so far the engine and the car as a whole has been flawless and it has spent most of its' time in really icy conditions.

I heard from some very knowledgable Benz people to not wait that long to change oil...meaning the recommended 10-15k. There were alot of problems with the gaskets drying up (this is on newer ones) because quite simply it needs to be changed for.

That being said...I put 65k miles on my CL and only maybe changed oil 2-3 times....stupid me, I know.....but the car ran perfect always.

I heard from some very knowledgable Benz people to not wait that long to change oil...meaning the recommended 10-15k. There were alot of problems with the gaskets drying up (this is on newer ones) because quite simply it needs to be changed for.

That being said...I put 65k miles on my CL and only maybe changed oil 2-3 times....stupid me, I know.....but the car ran perfect always.

In general, the more you can keep moving, at steady speeds, at moderate temperatures, the longer you can run the oil and filter......up to a point.

Come to think of it the only time I DO see a 3000 mile interval recommended... it's being recommended by the places that stand to profit from increased intervals - the places that sell oil and/or sell oil changes.



More than just profit is involved. It costs a shop bucks.....sometimes big bucks......to dispose of used oil and filters per State and EPA regulations. The more oil they change, the more they have to buy in bulk, and the higher their disposal costs will be. Sometimes used engine oil can be converted to heating oil...but it still costs a lot to do so...it has to be cleaned and re-refined.

Toyota itself recommends 3750 miles for "severe" service...which incluses much of the typical stop-and-go driving we do in urban and suburban areas.

More than just profit is involved. It costs a shop bucks.....sometimes big bucks......to dispose of used oil and filters per State and EPA regulations. The more oil they change, the more they have to buy in bulk, and the higher their disposal costs will be. Sometimes used engine oil can be converted to heating oil...but it still costs a lot to do so...it has to be cleaned and re-refined.

OK so... what, you're telling me Jiffy Lube is actually a charity, and the more volume they get the less money they make (or the more they give away?).

I don't really see how your response applies to what I've said.

Toyota itself recommends 3750 miles for "severe" service...which incluses much of the typical stop-and-go driving we do in urban and suburban areas.
If the manual recommends 3750 miles for severe service, and your driving matches severe service, then great, I don't disagree - go for it.

But many cars just don't need oil changes that often and that's what the owner's manual and oil life indicators are there for.

If you'd like to tell me that the engineers that wrote the interval specifications are liars, frauds, or idiots, then go ahead, but please give some sort of credible source other than yourself.

If you'd like to tell me why (and show me some sort of credible source/reference) oil life monitors are, according to you, ineffective and somewhat incapable of accounting for startup temps, trip distances, rpm, speed, time, and other important factors, please, go ahead. I mean, I'm sure they aren't spot-on accurate - they can't even seem to do that with fuel economy readings... but I figure they're close enough, and if necessary would tune the meter to the conservative side to recommend sooner than later, such as on the Corvette - in the beginning of the 5th gen the OLI was actually programmed to recommend a change at about 2/3rds of the actual estimated recommended oil life, which was typically every 10k miles. Later on they realized that was too conservative and bumped it to, on average, 15k miles. The guys who beat the ever living snot out of their later year C5s will get OLIs that tell them to change at 8k... but that's about it.

If you'd like to show me oil sample tests from Blackstone laboratories or their credible competitors that clearly demonstrate excessive/dangerous levels of contamination or breakdown of protective capabilities after 3000 miles, then please go ahead... because I can provide more sample results than you'd have time to read showing every day cars that get driven hard and driven for many miles and pull the oil at intervals even as high as 15-25k miles and the labs still show the oil has quite a bit of safe usable life to it.

If the manual recommends 3750 miles for severe service, and your driving matches severe service, then great, I don't disagree - go for it.

But many cars just don't need oil changes that often and that's what the owner's manual and oil life indicators are there for.

If you'd like to tell me that the engineers that wrote the interval specifications are liars, frauds, or idiots, then go ahead, but please give some sort of credible source other than yourself.



I'm not saying that engineers are frauds. Far from it. I have a great deal of respect for them. But ask the typical auto engineer how often he or she changes the oil in their own car. ( I have, on several occasions...with those I have met ). More often than not, it is 3000-5000 miles depending on conditions.

I think we can summarize...
Toyota/Lexus have stated oil change intervals. If these intervals are ignored then the engines in question can and do develop a sludge problem.

1. I don't think this means they are a bad design - Toyota states the change interval. Agree with it or not, if you do not follow it, your engine will probably have issues.

2. I think that other engines can go longer without developing the issue. Sometimes it is a combination of design and/or oil type. I don't think this means they are better engineered (this can be argued of course) - but just different.

I do hate that people who did not follow the required maintenance got together with their attorneys and brought this to class action. I do however like the settlement that it goes to binding arbitration.

Of note, my wife's MDX calls for oil changes at 3,750 miles.
My BMW (with synthetic oil and constant stop and go driving) is set to call for it in 6,000 miles (I'm at 7,000 right now and at the one year mark). I changed it at the one year mark - call me chicken.

PS - co-workers son just put a new engine in his Pontiac Vibe (with Toyota engine). Had an oil sludge problem at 43,000 miles - does not have receipts however and says he "might" have gone over a couple of times :)

Very interesting thread... One of the things I dislike most about my LS430 is the 5k mile service interval. For my Honda Odyssey, the service interval is 7.5k miles and for Porsches (with Mobil1) the service interval is a whopping 18k miles. It'd be nice if Toyota could figure out a way to safely extend the service interval of their engines so I don't have to waste so much time having the oil changed.

I do hate that people who did not follow the required maintenance got together with their attorneys and brought this to class action. I do however like the settlement that it goes to binding arbitration.)

Even though I had already sold my 99 ES300 I received the legal notice and entitlement for the car and this was not an action brought by people who did not follow required maintenance. People who did not maintain their car are excluded.

Even though I had already sold my 99 ES300 I received the legal notice and entitlement for the car and this was not an action brought by people who did not follow required maintenance. People who did not maintain their car are excluded.

How long did it take between the sale of your '99 and receipt of the legal notice? It sounds like a process that might take a long time for owners to get their entitlement.

my moms 2001 avalon didnt have any problems

More than just profit is involved. It costs a shop bucks.....sometimes big bucks......to dispose of used oil and filters per State and EPA regulations. The more oil they change, the more they have to buy in bulk, and the higher their disposal costs will be. Sometimes used engine oil can be converted to heating oil...but it still costs a lot to do so...it has to be cleaned and re-refined.


when they are charging the customer the disposal fee, how are they losing money from having to dispose it

How long did it take between the sale of your '99 and receipt of the legal notice? It sounds like a process that might take a long time for owners to get reimbursed.

It was over 3 years but it seems somehow they knew I had to have work done on it and maybe the records were not clear when turned over to the atorneys handling the class action, because at first I was to be charged then that changed after Mobil Lube manager called to ask what was going on.

I won't say it was a big fight but it was an inconvenience to me to try to sort it out at that time.

They at not time made me aware of the extended coverage to repair oil gell damage, just as the class action claims, so that part is true in my experiences as stated in the action.

when they are charging the customer the disposal fee, how are they losing money from having to dispose it

They are not necessarily losing money, but obviously it cuts into their profits. And sometimes competitive pressure with other local shops forces them from even charging the fee at all.

Even though I had already sold my 99 ES300 I received the legal notice and entitlement for the car and this was not an action brought by people who did not follow required maintenance. People who did not maintain their car are excluded.

Then why exactly did they have this suit? Toyota already extended the warranty on these cars - my understanding is that anyone who was denied a claim by Toyota can now take their case before binding arbitration.

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194378
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212

I got the notice for the RX 300 AWD...stuffed it in the glovebox. 160k miles, not a problem. Had to change the starter recently that is all. I change the oil in it.

My wife have a 99 RX300 and CEL is came on a couple of days ago. We got the Notice a few weeks ago. She brought into Lexus dealership and they said that it is not due to the sludge problem, and it is expired so it wont be cover.

The vehicle currently has 150K miles. Will Lexus reimburse for any related expense? How should i proceed?

Thanks!

My wife have a 99 RX300 and CEL is came on a couple of days ago. We got the Notice a few weeks ago. She brought into Lexus dealership and they said that it is not due to the sludge problem, and it is expired so it wont be cover.

The vehicle currently has 150K miles. Will Lexus reimburse for any related expense? How should i proceed?

Thanks!

Are you serious? The Check Engine Light can be due to so many issues - it is probably the o sensor. You can't blame every issue you come up with on oil sludge.

Sorry, I wasnt very clear. What I meant was about the expired warranty. If for some reason the CEL or any other repair was due to the sludge, will Lexus pay for the related expense?

Sorry, I wasnt very clear. What I meant was about the expired warranty. If for some reason the CEL or any other repair was due to the sludge, will Lexus pay for the related expense?
well if the cel is on, it is not likely that it is because of the slugde problem... you need to find out what is the problem first.

I think it is safe to say that after 8 years and 150,000 miles, your RX is out of "normal" warranty :-).

Even though I had already sold my 99 ES300 I received the legal notice and entitlement for the car and this was not an action brought by people who did not follow required maintenance. People who did not maintain their car are excluded.
as much as I remember from back in the day, there was not an single proof of anyone having an issue who followed the rules. It was pretty huge at Yahoo Groups at the time.

I still think that engine should last longer between oil changes, but at the same time you should follow your warranty, whatever it is.

Newest Toyota models in Europe are now seeing extended oil change intervals, up to 20,000 miles. Keep in mind that they are using much more expensive long life synthetic oil... Our standard interval is 10,000 miles.

Since this is a pet peeve of mine over the last 40yrs (ME with a major oil company) I have researched many brands of oil’s for our company’s field equipment. While dealing with the major company’s lubrication engineers I have inquired as to the makeup and change time of the oils. I have learned that the auto manufactures do recommend 3000 to 6000 miles between oil changes depending on road and dirt conditions and the quality of oil the mineral oil. If you run on a highway and don’t encounter much dust and dirt you can go 6000 miles with no problem. I you are on a dirt road in the back country you will need to change oil at 3000 miles. This assumes you are using a decent quality filter. A major key is to keep your air filter clean. I have purchased an air filter upgrade to my GS400 with a KN type which has a lot of air flow capacity with low micron dirt removal. It is cleanable.

I got out of the cycle of changing oil every 3-6k by going with synthetic oil; I personally like Mobil-1, 10w-30, for use here in Houston, you will need 5w if you are in cold country. In 1975 I started using this oil after talking to the Mobil Lube engineers who came to our company of field equipment business. They told me the tests in the factory on this oil are much more demanding than advertised.

I started with my new Olds Cutlass and ran 150k miles with no needed engine repair. It would burn about ½ qt in one year (15k miles) between oil changes. I never had to add oil. In 1975 Mobil was recommending you could go 25k miles or one year which ever came first. I presently have a 99’ Lexus and a 94’ Camry bought new and change oil every May, before the summer. We run about 10k yearly on the Camry and 15-20k on the Lexus. I use a high quality filter costing about $10 each for the year. I frequently look at the oil for color and it stays quite clean, note that dark oil does not mean it needs to be changed, but I don’t like to leave it dark to long, maybe a few months. It would be unwise to put synthetic oil in an older dirty engine which was not clean, as the oil has a high detergency additive to keep your engine clean. So on a dirty engine it would break loose the sludge and could foul your filter and oil galleries, if you are changing your oil every 3k-6k then is should be ok to start syntheic, but I would watch is closely and change it more often the first year while using a high capacity oil filter. If your engine is worn and burns/leaks oil, it becomes too expensive to run a synthetic oil.

Also you have to run a new engine at least 5k on normal oil to get rings to seat as the synthetic oil may not allow your rings to seat, slick. I had a fellow engineer put it in his new truck and it burned oil until he changed it back to get the rings to seat. I am saving my time and money using synethic oil. Most people I know don’t do a good job keeping up with oil changes and run the oil longer than they should, so going a year with synthetic oil solved my proplem. I believe all of the major oil companies have good synetich oil, but mine still is Mobil. I am also convinced that I saved two engines which ran out of cooling water, and not knowing it I ran the engine until it started overheating with pinging. (water leak developed and drained all of the water out – no steaming). Both instances I did not ruin the bearings. Synthetic oil is very good for higher temperatures as it won’t degrade as fast, it won’t oxidize and sludge as a mineral based oil. Good Luck

Sludge smudges Toyota

Engine problem is latest issue to dent automaker's reputation

Christine Tierney / The Detroit News


Jeff Meckstroth's dispute with Toyota Motor Corp. might have ended quietly on March 1, 2001, when an arbitration panel unanimously agreed that Toyota was liable for the damage to the engine of his 2-year-old $37,000 Lexus RX300 sport utility vehicle.

Instead, it escalated. As the two Toyota representatives packed up their papers, they referred casually to other, similar cases they were handling. "Then we had our suspicions up that this isn't an unusual case, that Lexus knows about the problem, and has formed a response -- just deny, deny, deny," said Meckstroth, a 47-year-old New Orleans stockbroker. "We decided to sue."

His case mushroomed into a class-action suit representing prior and current owners of nearly 4 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have suffered engine damage due to thickening oil, or sludge. It can accumulate and deprive the engine of necessary lubrication.

Toyota agreed last fall to settle the case but maintains that its engines were not defective. It said the settlement terms mirror a program to reimburse customers for sludge-related engine damage or repairs that it put in place in 2002. A Louisiana state court is expected to approve the settlement this week after a hearing today.

With engine replacements costing as much as $10,000, the final tab could run into the billions. But the damage to Toyota's reputation might be even more costly for the Japanese automaker.

Toyota is not the only automaker that has received complaints from consumers whose engines are damaged by sludge -- and the source of the problem and who bears responsibility are disputed issues.

But the high-profile case is the latest in a series of recalls and other signs suggesting that the Japanese automaker's quality controls aren't foolproof.

"It would be accurate to say that there have been enough issues with Toyota in the past couple of years that they don't have the spotless image they had a couple of years ago," said Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com, an automotive research Web site.

But he adds that problems at Toyota attract a disproportionate amount of attention because of the automaker's sterling reputation for quality. "Most companies wouldn't get noticed for these problems."

Further complicating matters, sludge issues aren't clear-cut. Excessive heat, sediment, poor oil condition or a combination of those factors may thicken the oil. In engines with very narrow passages, small amounts of sludge may get stuck, causing damage.

DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group and Volkswagen AG are among the automakers that have faced complaints about engine sludge in their vehicles.

"There are reasons to believe that the engine design could be contributing to it, but there are also reasons to think that lack of maintenance or proper customer care is contributing," Brauer said. "Everything I've read indicates something kind of in between."

Gary Gambel, an attorney at Murphy, Rogers, Sloss & Gambel in New Orleans, argued that Toyota's engines had a defect giving them a propensity to develop sludge.

But "the terms of the settlement and the settlement itself have no finding of defect in the product," Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said. "They're not saying these engines are predisposed to sludge."

The settlement covers certain model years between 1997 and 2002 for the Toyota Camry, Solara, Avalon, Celica, and Lexus ES300 cars, and the RX300 and Highlander SUVs. The settlement amount "is tailored to what your damages are," Gambel said.

Toyota does not expect the rate at which customers are coming in for engine repairs in those vehicles or for compensation to change as a result of the settlement, Dominicis said.

Toyota remains among the quality leaders by any measure, but some question whether it can continue to grow rapidly and maintain top standards. Its sales targets suggest Toyota may overtake General Motors Corp. to become the world's No. 1 automaker this year.

In a recent interview, Yuki Funo, Toyota's highest-level U.S. Toyota executive, said he thought Toyota had "come through the worst period."

He noted that the company's U.S. recalls were lower last year than in 2005. "We are on the right track to get our arms around this issue, and I think we should see better signs in the future," Funo said.

Most experts say it takes years for brands to lose -- and restore -- their reputations.

"The sludge issue was a significant blow," said Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore. "Toyota's in the position that GM was in back in the 1970s. A lot of people were buying GM products in the '70s because they were GM products, but they had fractures at the edges. It took 15 years before GM started to suffer from that long-term negative word-of-mouth."

At Toyota, he said, "it's going to hurt them if they don't turn it around."source : detnews

didnt they get sued in china too for the same reason but for the Mark-X?