Over the past year and a half, speculation has been rampant on AutoSpies.com and other websites about the Lexus IS-F and BMW M3.

Now that they have both been announced, it looks like a battle of epic proportions is being planned with the winner gaining the ultimate prize...The ability to brag that they truly make the ULTIMATE driving machine.

Granted the full specs are not out but we have enough photos and information on both cars, to take our best educated guesses and argue the pros and cons of our points, in a gentlemanly fashion.

When the ultimate showdown finally happens and it's coming sooner than we all think, who will walk away with the crown?

The Lexus IS-F or the BMW M3?.

Ladies and Gentleman...oil your mice and start your keyboards!

SMG or roll-for-yourself-and-3-pedals vs. slushbox? Easy choice...

SMG or roll-for-yourself-and-3-pedals vs. slushbox? Easy choice...

Maybe, maybe not. A Ultimate Driving Machine is not necessarily an Ultimate Clutching Machine. Several good clutchless transmissions are out there for real driving....the VW/Audi DSG is probably the best example.

I vote M3! M Power.

I truth an Lexus IS-F is a beast!

Maybe, maybe not. A Ultimate Driving Machine is not necessarily an Ultimate Clutching Machine. Several good clutchless transmissions are out there for real driving....the VW/Audi DSG is probably the best example.

DSG does have clutch. Indeed, it has two clutches in its transmission. It just doesn't have a clutch pedal.

No Toyota product has the same type of clutch and shifting feel provided by the BMW product.

M3. #6 at Don Mackey BMW (Arizona). MSRP certain. I am seriously hoping for the first allocation, but It'll probably be second. Lexus IS-F will be a AWESOME car, as well. I just love those damn Ms

No real comparison at all IMHO. Two different cars for two different types of enthusiasts. Neither car will be better for the enthusiasts on the other side of the fence.

I'd have to see either one before I can pass judgement. I'd say M3 is probably going to be a better car, but if it has the same reliability as the current M3, then it just doesn't matter.

I say it's still too early to say. But I think you would lean more towards BMW producing the better performance car. They just have the edge. It's possible that Lexus can outdo BMW on their first try... but unlikely. (I'll still keep my fingers crossed though. ;) )

Lexus hasn't even come close to matching BMW's M series yet. REALLY is easy choice here...M3.

M3 definitely, the IS350 doesnt even match a 3 series in handling

Lexus will defenately be more powerful with 5 liters of displacement vs M3's 4 liters. But then of course, M3 will edge out handling wise, and provide a manual, something that Lexus should really consider.

But the overclocked 4.0 in the BMW is probably going to be nothing but trouble.

We might as well compare the Lexus LS460-F and the BMW M7...


Neither car is out on the market yet. I doubt anyone on this forum has put their hands on both cars and drove them.

But from speculations and previous history of Lexus and BMW, I'm going to have to give the M3 the edge for performance.

DSG does have clutch. Indeed, it has two clutches in its transmission. It just doesn't have a clutch pedal.

No Toyota product has the same type of clutch and shifting feel provided by the BMW product.


Surprising coming from a (TT?)supra owner.


P.s. arent BMWs know for having rubbery feeling shifters? They are know for their steering feel not shifter feel... I stand to be corrected.

I think both cars will be great in their own respect... Lexus going the extra 10th in a straight line and BMW the extra 10th in a corner.

From pictures the bimmer looks more cohesive, but the IS-F had a better looking base to start with.
The interior of the IS far outpaces the BMW.

Its hard to say which would be the better overall package, but for my money i'd pick the F (were the V8 in an E46 shell it would be another story), while I see all the magazines going gaga over the M.

I have a good feeling about the tricked out 8 speed, it remains to be seen if they can deliver on their promise.

The funny thing is that Nissan GTR is going to walk all over both of these.

We will see.

I have both deposits for M3 and IS-F.

I am #2 for IS-F at Steven Creek Lexus and I am on the list for M3 at Steven Creek BMW (they did not mention the price at this point, so I am guessing that they are going to jack the price, and if they do, I am saying Bye Bye to them)

I am honestly leaning towards to M3, only because IS-F will basically be the same as my IS350 but with bigger motor and riceier body kits. But you can't lose either way. They are both awesome car.

But then again,on the second though, I might just end up with diesel X5 when it comes out next year. I am diesel turbo guy at heart. I am kinda fed up with smallish car that doesnt really fit me very well.
P.S I have started at thread about BMW M3 vs Is-F a while back.

Wow, considering that we don't know, I'll just take a wild guess and say

Handling? M3 easily
Straight line? this is where the IS-F might be able to outdo an M3

If history is any indication, the M3 will be the better sports/GT car. No problem. Feel free to prove us wrong, Lexus.

I think the posts and comments on this thread are going to be pretty much similar to the ones from IS350 vs. 335i. You can just copy and paste from there. Especially now, before both of the cars are in production.

The funny thing is that Nissan GTR is going to walk all over both of these.


That comment holds no ground here in this thread because the GTR is neither a BMW or Lexus. Therefor, it can run curcles around a Porsche 911 Turbo, but its still a Nissan and far far away from what a Lexus or BMW is...


I use the comparison between a Natural Bodybuilder who has his health, diet, rest, and training in check, to a GymRat who shoots up the latest 1000mg mixture of Testosterone.

Surprising coming from a (TT?)supra owner.


P.s. arent BMWs know for having rubbery feeling shifters? They are know for their steering feel not shifter feel... I stand to be corrected.

No, you are wrong.

And Supra is known for the rubbery feeling shifter.

Lexus will defenately be more powerful with 5 liters of displacement vs M3's 4 liters. But then of course, M3 will edge out handling wise, and provide a manual, something that Lexus should really consider.

But the overclocked 4.0 in the BMW is probably going to be nothing but trouble.

Oh ya? So I guess the IS-F's 5.0L should be more powerful than Ferrari F430's 4.3L engine? And the Ford's 5.4L V8 then should be more powerful than the IS-F?

That comment holds no ground here in this thread because the GTR is neither a BMW or Lexus. Therefor, it can run curcles around a Porsche 911 Turbo, but its still a Nissan and far far away from what a Lexus or BMW is...


I use the comparison between a Natural Bodybuilder who has his health, diet, rest, and training in check, to a GymRat who shoots up the latest 1000mg mixture of Testosterone.

The IS-F is more like a big amatuer looking to challenge a finely tuned professional athlete (yes the GTR). The GTR may be a Nissan but its still LEGENDARY.

The IS-F is more like a big amatuer looking to challenge a finely tuned professional athlete (yes the GTR). The GTR may be a Nissan but its still LEGENDARY.


Yes, its Legendary, and just a few minutes ago I read a thread on how skyline killed an S/C M3, but the refinement and balance the M3 and IS-F will have is far more superior.

Its like having a "lady in the streets and a freak in the bed!" LOL....

P.s. arent BMWs know for having rubbery feeling shifters? They are know for their steering feel not shifter feel... I stand to be corrected.

Not from my experience. BMW's shifters are actually fairly good. Not Honda-good, but still quite good.

I've never felt a Toyota shifter that felt good. It always feel like a disconnected joint, or a kid's toy. :(

SMG or roll-for-yourself-and-3-pedals vs. slushbox? Easy choice...

Good job on displaying ignorance :thumbup:

The auto tranny in the IS-F will shift faster than any human can and will upshift and downshift just like an SMG; it will be nothing like the autoboxes out there right now. They've stated this several times; only someone who hasn't read the press releases could make this kind of statement. We've already seen how efficient Toyota trannies are in the IS350.

As for head to head; I think the Lexus will be faster in acceleration in straight line, will brake better, will be more comfortable and luxurious inside, will ride better.

I think the handling prowess will have a slight edge to BMW because of the chassis feedback; but we might get surprised here; Lexus let loose their engineers on this beast. But as for grip and agility (slalom), I see the cars being very close with possibly a slight edge going to BMW.

As for price, Lexus will win that battle too; as I expect an optioned IS-F to go for a good bit less than an optioned M3

Good job on displaying ignorance :thumbup:
No need for personal comments like this please. Discuss & debate about his points about the CAR, NOT the person.

Oh ya? So I guess the IS-F's 5.0L should be more powerful than Ferrari F430's 4.3L engine? And the Ford's 5.4L V8 then should be more powerful than the IS-F?

Where did this come from? BMW doesnt make Ferrari engines.... They have a 5.0L V10 that makes 500hp, yes, but so does Lexus... and actually their V10 makes 550hp :)

Ford's 5.4L with a supercharger makes 450hp. In a car that weighs 4000lbs. That is a completely different car. Why don't you compare a diesel next?

NA vs NA Lexus has BMW beat actually, not in just power production, but also in emissions and gas mileage. I know BMW can make some awesome motors, but don't think for a minute the 4.0L V8 going into the M3 is going to have a better powerband than the all-new 5.0L going into the IS-F.

This discussion has nothing to do with the thread; all you're doing is bashing Toyota and Lexus. And you've got JZA80 in your title? sheesh

NA vs NA Lexus has BMW beat actually, not in just power production, but also in emissions and gas mileage.

I really hope your comparison between NA engines isn't between the 2006 IS350 and (e90) 2006 330i. Considering the 330i was 3.0 liter displacement, while the IS350 was 3.5 liter. Even then the E46 M3 was lower displacement and still made more horsepower than the Lexus IS350 so I don't see how anyone has anyone beat on that subject. Even then, the 335i sedan is still 3.0 liters running on very low boost, so its reasonable to say, BMW could've but didn't because they need to space out the New M3 a bit

Either, or, the Lexus IS-F will sell and so will the M3. There will be cases of good drivers beating a idiot M3 owner, and vice-versa.

So the way I see it, its a win win situation, considering the FACT that if in anycase the M3 ends up being a 1/10ths of a second faster, 3 years later you will see the Lexus throw down an even faster machine and so on. The evolution will grow soo much that our 0-60's will be averaged at 3-4 seconds.

Good job on displaying ignorance :thumbup:



Someone really take the bait easily.

Did I mention which car is more superior than the other one in that short sentence? No. And hence, I should have not offended you right, fan boy?

The reason I said it's an easy choice is that both cars are targeting different type of drivers IMHO. The M3 with the manual or SMG will be more driver-involving, and probably more fun on the twisty and on the track. It's probably more challenging for the drivers as they may want to improve their gear shifting time as well.

The IS-F, on the other hand, is more of a hot-rod. It's closest competitor should be an AMG C-class instead of the M. Step and go, that is. It's fast, but fewer driver input.

P.S. Just because I have a better impression on another product over a Toyota/Lexus product doesn't mean I am bashing Toyota/Lexus. And just because all the cars I have are Toyota products doesn't mean I have to brown-nose the brand and shouldn't voice my own fair opinion.

OR... as Jeremy Clarkson would say "I feel a race coming on" :)

The funny thing is that Nissan GTR is going to walk all over both of these.

Not funny but the GTR should considering it's price difference and it's designed to be a totally different car without the luxury amenities.

As for the thread topic I feel the BMW M3 will be the edgier, faster car. As someone else previously stated, the Lexus will most likely be like an AMG car rather than a //M. Super fast luxury cruiser.

It's going to be a tough battle, and Lexus is the obvious contender. So the edge goes to the M3, until Lexus can prove history wrong. I'll have to give those German engineers some credit...they can develop one hecuva chassis and drivetrain that couples to their race-like engines. So intoxicating this combination is...but the durability of their parts is deplorable.

I'm rootin' for ya, Lexus...so please come ready for battle.

Guys let's keep the name calling and personal commentary out of this or it will be closed.

Please keep on topic about the vehicles, not the people posting in the thread.

Looks like yet another thread where everyone miraculously knows the future, and knows exactly what both the new M3 and IS-F will bring to the table :rolleyes:.

The IS-F is the first Lexus of it's kind. People can make predictions all they want, but the fact is the IS-F is a big mystery until it actually goes on sale. The M3 is also a bit of a mystery until it goes on-sale.

Looks like yet another thread where everyone miraculously knows the future, and knows exactly what both the new M3 and IS-F will bring to the table :rolleyes:.

Please read the first post of this thread. it's all about speculation and guessing, and discuss in a gentlemen fashion.

Looks like yet another thread where everyone miraculously knows the future, and knows exactly what both the new M3 and IS-F will bring to the table :rolleyes:.

The IS-F is the first Lexus of it's kind. People can make predictions all they want, but the fact is the IS-F is a big mystery until it actually goes on sale. The M3 is also a bit of a mystery until it goes on-sale.

Everyone doesn't know the future but while we're on the topic of talking about a car that isn't even out yet, it's still fun to speculate. One can make educated guesses on what the new M3 will be like as it will not be revolutionary different than what the previous M3s were. The ISF will probably be closer to luxury than sport based on their previous history. No one has said they know the future but aren't we here to discuss and even possibly :gasp: speculate? ;)

Please read the first post of this thread. it's all about speculation and guessing, and discuss in a gentlemen fashion.

I read the all the posts in the thread, and some of the posters are making, or trying to make, definitive and concrete statements about the new M3 and IS-F.

Everyone doesn't know the future but while we're on the topic of talking about a car that isn't even out yet, it's still fun to speculate. One can make educated guesses on what the new M3 will be like as it will not be revolutionary different than what the previous M3s were. The ISF will probably be closer to luxury than sport based on their previous history. No one has said they know the future but aren't we here to discuss and even possibly :gasp: speculate? ;)

Speculating is fine, but it makes no sense for people to be making concrete or definitive statements.

Sure, the IS-F may be more luxury than sport ... or maybe not. The IS-F was developed closely with Toyota motorsports personnel, which includes Toyota's F1 people. This is the first Lexus ever whose development has had close involvement with Toyota's motorsports activities, or more specifically F1.

Speculating is fine, but it makes no sense for people to be making concrete or definitive statements.

Sure, the IS-F may be more luxury than sport ... or maybe not. The IS-F was developed closely with Toyota motorsports personnel, which includes Toyota's F1 people. This is the first Lexus ever whose development has had close involvement with Toyota's motorsports activities, or more specifically F1.

Okay, that's fine. There you go, you are speculating also. :thumbup: ;)

I do hope Lexus surprises us and makes the car more Sport than Luxury but it I doubt it. Again, I do hope Lexus surprises us (or is it just me?). :D

After reading this, I ran down to the dealer to buy this Lexus 550hp V10... it was nowhere to be found! The BMW dealer on the other hand had three different offerings, a coupe, convertible as well as a sedan... :sad:

I'm going to take my private jet right now to Japan, over to Toyota's Higashi Fuji technical centre, and to the Fuji Speedway to see the prototype V10 on the dyno and on the racetrack :p ;).

Okay, that's fine. There you go, you are speculating also. :thumbup: ;)

I do hope Lexus surprises us and makes the car more Sport than Luxury but it I doubt it. Again, I do hope Lexus surprises us (or is it just me?). :D

Could be an equal balance of sport and luxury. We are merely speculating on the sportiness and ultimate performance of the IS-F. But the close involvement of Toyota's motorsports people with the development of the IS-F is no speculation, it's a fact :).

Oh ya? So I guess the IS-F's 5.0L should be more powerful than Ferrari F430's 4.3L engine? And the Ford's 5.4L V8 then should be more powerful than the IS-F?

Not, but this is pretty much confirmed already, while both M3 and IS-F will make around 400hp, M3 will only make 300lb/ft torque vs IS-F 350lb/ft. O course, things might change, but if anything IS-F should make even more torque.

My money is on the M3:thumbup:

Here is a vid of both cars on the famous ring. *pay special attention to the concrete portion of the ring (forgot the name of the corner).. The BMW is faster, more composed, and more planted than the IS-F on the ring imo..

Is-f
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/PopUpVideoPlayer/videoID=20108483


M3
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-7334521782453719117

My money is also on the M3. They have more experience making sports sedans.


But like KevinGS said, I am rooting for the IS-F to be a serious contender.
Here is a vid of both cars on the famous ring. *pay special attention to the concrete portion of the ring (forgot the name of the corner).. The BMW is faster, more composed, and more planted than the IS-F on the ring imo..

Is-f
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/PopUpVideoPlayer/videoID=20108483


M3
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-7334521782453719117They might still be tuning the suspensions of both cars, so these vids though interesting, may not be an accurate depiction of what the final production cars will be like.

I'm pulling for Lexus, I want them to be the major contender but I would like to *speculate* that BMW is going to walk away in the corners.

I hope the IS-F is more of a hot-rod, because after all .. how many times are you going to take a turn at 70 mph to win a race. ;)

Autocross is another story and people in that sport, well would make a more educated purchase in the car of their choice.

So when it comes to drag racing at the track my money is on Performance and Luxory over Sport Feel. Go Lexus! (And really.. my <3 is set on the C6 Vette. When someone can give the Z06 a run then that'll turn my head! ;) )

The bimmer looks sweet and the sound of the v8 m3 is amazing. However, I'm rooting for Lexus to take down BMW. :thumbup:

My money is on the M3 and Im rooting for BMW to remain the champ.

My money on the IS-F

M3
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-7334521782453719117

Body roll is clearly not in the M3's vocabulary:eek2:

I really hope your comparison between NA engines isn't between the 2006 IS350 and (e90) 2006 330i. Considering the 330i was 3.0 liter displacement, while the IS350 was 3.5 liter. Even then the E46 M3 was lower displacement and still made more horsepower than the Lexus IS350 so I don't see how anyone has anyone beat on that subject. Even then, the 335i sedan is still 3.0 liters running on very low boost, so its reasonable to say, BMW could've but didn't because they need to space out the New M3 a bit

Either, or, the Lexus IS-F will sell and so will the M3. There will be cases of good drivers beating a idiot M3 owner, and vice-versa.

So the way I see it, its a win win situation, considering the FACT that if in anycase the M3 ends up being a 1/10ths of a second faster, 3 years later you will see the Lexus throw down an even faster machine and so on. The evolution will grow soo much that our 0-60's will be averaged at 3-4 seconds.
The current M3 isn't on the same SAE rating scale as the IS350

I am hoping for Lexus to really surprise us and it can handle just as well as the M3, but we will have to wait and see what is going to happen

That seems a bit silly.... :uh:

It's reasonable to say "I'm rooting" for the IS-F, or "I'm Hoping..." When you say "my money", that is far too much of a leap of faith, blind brand loyalty.

Judging by past performance, the BMW will trump the IS-F. It would not surprise me if the IS-F handles better than any previous Lexus and possibly outperforms the M3, time will tell. (How many M3's did Lexus disect in the creation of the IS-F?)

LOL, why would Lexus need to disect an M3 to create IS-F? IS-F is nothing more than a tuned IS with a bigger engine, just like M3 is a tuned 3 series with a bigger engine. You could say that perhaps Lexus disected a 3 series to create IS, but I find it very unlikely. Current IS is an evolution of a previous IS, which in turn is based on Supra - an already much superior car to the current M3.

That being said, if I was to chose between the upcoming M3 and IS-F, I'd probably chose the M3. A car like this simply MUST have a proper manual transmission.

Interesting.. most here are saying that the IS-F will have some new handling "magic".. if it's simply a IS with a big motor, (which I believe it is not) it's Game Over.. the M3 wins yet again.

I said tuned IS... this may include weight reduction, revised suspension geometry, stiffer spring and shock rates, bigger sway bars, and of course rims and tires. Maybe revised steering gearbox, and hopefully no more VDIM. But essentially, its going to be the same suspension, something that you could swap onto a regular IS.

the IS-F in the video seems to behave a lot better than the normal IS350. Less body roll and more stable looking. Of course seeing is one thing is driving is another, but the IS-F definitely has an upgraded suspension to accommodate the new engine. But is it enough for the M3? Who knows. BMW sure knows how to make suspensions though. This is Lexus' first true attempt at making a track-bred car. Hopefully they dont make a mistake by giving it the same kind of steering response that rivals a Toyota Camry.

No, you are wrong.

And Supra is known for the rubbery feeling shifter.


And doesn't the supra share a Getrag gearbox with BMW :rolleyes:

Here is a vid of both cars on the famous ring. *pay special attention to the concrete portion of the ring (forgot the name of the corner).. The BMW is faster, more composed, and more planted than the IS-F on the ring imo..

Is-f
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/PopUpVideoPlayer/videoID=20108483


M3
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-7334521782453719117


The 3 seems to have more suspension travel (suited for that bumpy section of the track). Surprisingly enough, th IS looks more stiffly sprung.

The 3 doesn't look any faster, but it does look ever so slightly more composed.

LOL, why would Lexus need to disect an M3 to create IS-F? IS-F is nothing more than a tuned IS with a bigger engine, just like M3 is a tuned 3 series with a bigger engine. You could say that perhaps Lexus disected a 3 series to create IS, but I find it very unlikely. Current IS is an evolution of a previous IS, which in turn is based on Supra - an already much superior car to the current M3.

That being said, if I was to chose between the upcoming M3 and IS-F, I'd probably chose the M3. A car like this simply MUST have a proper manual transmission.

every carmaker does it.

I still believe IS-F specs are underrated. It's announced with 350 lb/ft torque, and its rather weak for a tuned 5.0 V8. I wont be surprised if it debuts with close to 400.

Toyota can certainly build race cars, no question about it. It's their implementation that they have not acheived with their previous cars (minus the supra).

Being able to build a track-bred car is one thing, but to build it so that it's civilized for the public road is another thing. It's not an easy feat. How many cars out there handles like a race car, yet tame enough not to toss your coins out of the coin holder. How many cars out there can drive as smooth as the Lexus LS, while offering world class handling. There is a balance between the two. It just happens that BMW has been the leader in this department.

I reserve further judgment until the IS-F comes out. I don't expect the IS-F to run over the M3. I would be proud of Toyota if the IS-F can do 90% of what the M3 can considering this is their first attempt at a serious performance machine.

It might be Lexus first, but Toyota has tons and tons of experiences building track-bred vehicles that BMW can't hope to match.

I prefer camry steering to BMW. It's faster, sharper and lighter, much easier to drive on a daily basis. BMW steering are too slow and numb, but worse than that, they are too heavy for normal driving, yet not heavy enough for sportscar duties. M3 needs to be heavy/tight/fast like Supra twin turbos rack.

I hope you got vaseline ready - BMW fanboys are about to go postal on you, lol. :D :D :D

The IS-F and M3 will be comparable 0-60.

However, this is the only area where it will be close. One reason is if you look at the IS body, it cannot accomodate wide tires like a bimmer. So overall handling will not be as good as an M3 or even a 335 for that matter.

Both will be great cars but for different markets entirely. They are not even worth comparing.

The IS-F and M3 will be comparable 0-60.

However, this is the only area where it will be close. One reason is if you look at the IS body, it cannot accomodate wide tires like a bimmer. So overall handling will not be as good as an M3 or even a 335 for that matter.

Both will be great cars but for different markets entirely. They are not even worth comparing.

Why does a car need wide tires to have good handling? Lotus Elise has 175 series front tires and 225 series rear tires, and handling wise it will make a joke of any BMW ever produced.

Guys let's keep the name calling and personal commentary out of this or it will be closed.

Please keep on topic about the vehicles, not the people posting in the thread.

I will repeat myself once again.

I hope you got vaseline ready - BMW fanboys are about to go postal on you, lol. :D :D :D

Och, comments like the above that fan the flames are neither appreciated nor needed. Please exit this thread and do not post in it any further.

Why does a car need wide tires to have good handling? Lotus Elise has 175 series front tires and 225 series rear tires, and handling wise it will make a joke of any BMW ever produced.

The reason the Elise will make a joke of any BMW is because it weighs 2/3 what the majority of BMW's do, plus it is designed solely to handle well, with no concern about ride quality. Now if the cars were closer in weight and with a similar suspension setup, as will more likely be the case with the M3 vs IS-F tires would start to make a more noticeable difference. Yes, you're right in saying that a car can be made to handle well without wide tires, but that does not mean that wider tires cannot have a positive effect on handling.

And doesn't the supra share a Getrag gearbox with BMW :rolleyes:

Just because they source from the same company doesn't mean they are using the same gearbox, not to mention about shift linkage mechanism. Geez...

Current IS is an evolution of a previous IS, which in turn is based on Supra - an already much superior car to the current M3.


The previous IS is only loosely based on the Supra. And that's still a stretch.

How is the Supra a "much superior car" to the current (E46) M3? You must know something that I don't know. Yes, the 2JZ engine has huge mod potential and is a monster, and very likely way more reliable than the M3. Other than that, I don't see the Supra being more superior stock to stock.

It might be Lexus first, but Toyota has tons and tons of experiences building track-bred vehicles that BMW can't hope to match.


Examples? Last time I check, BMW has win more international races than Toyota. Also, when's the last time Toyota win an F1 race?

Honestly, these 2 cars aren't even out yet, and saying this car is better than the other is just silly.

Honestly, these 2 cars aren't even out yet, and saying this car is better than the other is just silly.

OMG... not again...

I still believe IS-F specs are underrated. It's announced with 350 lb/ft torque, and its rather weak for a tuned 5.0 V8. I wont be surprised if it debuts with close to 400.

Agreed.

I estimate 420-465hp, 370-400ft/lbs torque.

Any takers?

Toyota can certainly build race cars, no question about it. It's their implementation that they have not acheived with their previous cars (minus the supra).



Don't forget the MR-2 (in particular the MKII turbo). Its a better sports car than the supra was, without question. It has to be the most underrated vehicle in Toyota's arsenal.

You guys also missed out on cars like the EP82 GT Turbo Starlet, the AE101 Levin GT-Z/GT Apex, the AE111 Levin BZ-R. Albeit the we all FWD, these were some serious handling and fairly quick machines (for the time). You better believe they know how.

Just because they source from the same company doesn't mean they are using the same gearbox, not to mention about shift linkage mechanism. Geez...

I checked, its supposed to be the same family of transmission, with ratios and bell housings adapted for particular engines.

The previous IS is only loosely based on the Supra. And that's still a stretch.

How is the Supra a "much superior car" to the current (E46) M3? You must know something that I don't know. Yes, the 2JZ engine has huge mod potential and is a monster, and very likely way more reliable than the M3. Other than that, I don't see the Supra being more superior stock to stock.

I agree with you. The E46 M3 is superior to the supra. It came out after the supra was put out to pasture, it ought to be. The supra was however, superior to the E36.

And the 1st gen Altezza was based heavily on the Supra chassis, as was the Soarer (SC) and the Chaser.

Examples? Last time I check, BMW has win more international races than Toyota. Also, when's the last time Toyota win an F1 race?

Now here is where we wont see eye to eye. BMW has won more int'l races than Toyota? Puhlease :rolleyes:

Toyota has achieved more in its 50 yrs of motorsport than BMW has in almost twice the time.
Show me some stats to back ur statement up, because from what i've researched, you are very wrong. Don't try counting in BMW's success in motorcycle racing.... apples to apples here.

When was the last time Toyota won an F1 race? Pssssshhh, when was the last time BMW won one? Don't even try and tell me with Williams F1, because all they did was supply the motor.


p.s. BMW beat Toyota at Le Mans in 1999, due to a TYRE FAILURE. The GT-One was a far superior machine to BMW's entry. In fact, the more than 8 yr old GT-One draws comparisons to Audi's venerable R10

Show me some stats to back ur statement up, because from what i've researched, you are very wrong. Don't try counting in BMW's success in motorcycle racing.... apples to apples here.

When was the last time Toyota won an F1 race? Pssssshhh, when was the last time BMW won one? Don't even try and tell me with Williams F1, because all they did was supply the motor.

p.s. BMW beat Toyota at Le Mans in 1999, due to a TYRE FAILURE. The GT-One was a far superior machine to BMW's entry. In fact, the more than 8 yr old GT-One draws comparisons to Audi's venerable R10

You are not being convincing here. Maybe you can work with RiceMaster to put up some stats and facts first to back up your statement as you two brought this one up. BMW has won more touring car/stock car series racing since the 2002 (the model, not the year) era.

BMW supply the motor, and they still are part of the team right? Let's say they only won part of an F1 race because they only supply the engine, then when did Toyota win part of an F1 race?

Oh, so I guess BMW should forfeit their Le Mans title and just hand it to Toyota because people are saying Toyota has the better... no, make it FAR SUPERIOR machine to BMW's, even though it can't finish the race? Maybe ALL the entries in that race should just erase all the things happen on that day and let Toyota take the title away because it's so FAR SUPERIOR. That's funny...

Now back to the topic. Another reason I think the M3 will be a better sports car than the IS-F is that BMW has put the E90 in more races than Toyota/Lexus has done with the IS, so they should have more data and experience to work with for tuning the car.

This thread is going nowhere fast.

The IS-F will have well over 400HP, and well over 350 lb-ft. Don't believe me, then have some patience for a few months until official specs are out. Lexus in their press release stated that the suspension, steering tuning, parts of the transmission, and engine are all unique to the IS-F, among other things. Those who believe that the IS-F is simply an IS350 with firmer suspension a big motor will be sorely mistaken once the full, official specs come out.

I expect the IS-F to have a full complement of suspension modifications, different suspension geometry, as well as chassis and body rigidity enhancements.

For all we know, the suspension, steering, transmission parts, and engine of the IS-F may not be swappable into a regular IS350.

As for Toyota's involvement in motorsports, they have a legendary reputation in WRC, and the Dakar rally. Toyota has also wins in CART racing, a huge number of wins in off-road racing, and is quickly building a reputation in Rolex Grand Am Sports Car Racing. Team Lexus with the IS300 had a number of wins in Touring Car/Stock Car races.

Unlike Honda and BMW, who were simply engine suppliers in F1 for many years, Toyota entered F1 and started from scratch, building their own full team from nothing. Toyota from the very beginning made their own chassis and engine in F1. BMW and Honda now have full factory teams, but that's not the same as Toyota's team. Honda simply bought BAR, and BMW simply bought the Sauber team. Sauber and BAR people are still working for BMW and Honda, respectively. Toyota did not buy up any other teams in F1. They are a true independent team.

"My dad can beat up your dad!"---

Joy

You are not being convincing here. Maybe you can work with RiceMaster to put up some stats and facts first to back up your statement as you two brought this one up. BMW has won more touring car/stock car series racing since the 2002 (the model, not the year) era.

BMW supply the motor, and they still are part of the team right? Let's say they only won part of an F1 race because they only supply the engine, then when did Toyota win part of an F1 race?

Oh, so I guess BMW should forfeit their Le Mans title and just hand it to Toyota because people are saying Toyota has the better... no, make it FAR SUPERIOR machine to BMW's, even though it can't finish the race? Maybe ALL the entries in that race should just erase all the things happen on that day and let Toyota take the title away because it's so FAR SUPERIOR. That's funny...

Now back to the topic. Another reason I think the M3 will be a better sports car than the IS-F is that BMW has put the E90 in more races than Toyota/Lexus has done with the IS, so they should have more data and experience to work with for tuning the car.

Listen, I don't have to convince you of jack shyte. I'm tired of posting Toyota's extensive motorsport history & championship wins (based in fact, not speculation) all over the bloody internet, maybe I should have done a word doc and saved it on my pc so I dont have to gather the info every time I have a point to prove. I'm not going to do it again, maybe you could do yourself a favour and look it up.

BMW has won the WTCC twice.... what other international touring car series would you like to talk about? Of course, they have done great at DTM and ETC & BTC, and they have my props and respect for that but ...those are European series....not International. I suppose you would like to say that European touring car racing is oh so superior to Japanese touring car racing? And FYI Williams race Engineering built the BMW Le mans car. I'm not saying they should hand them the title, I'm merely stating that they lucked out.

I will agree with you that they have more experience putting the 3 series through racing than Lexus has the IS, no question about that at all. Then again, that was never my point was it?

what exactly does an open wheel racing car have to do w/a streetcar?

F1 has zero relevance to these vehicles

NA vs NA Lexus has BMW beat actually, not in just power production, but also in emissions and gas mileage. I know BMW can make some awesome motors, but don't think for a minute the 4.0L V8 going into the M3 is going to have a better powerband than the all-new 5.0L going into the IS-F.


The Lexus 3.0 V6 (GS 300) with direct fuel injection makes 245hp. The BMW 3.0 makes 255hp without direct fuel injection, with DFI it makes 272hp. So not exactly sure what you are talking about :uh:

This Thread reminds me of " Web Racing ". Guesstimation auguring. :uh:

what exactly does an open wheel racing car have to do w/a streetcar?

F1 has zero relevance to these vehicles

Not totally true. F1 does have *some* relevance to street cars and production cars, although it's very small. Many F1 technologies eventually make their way into production cars. Also, a lot of knowledge and experience gained in F1 greatly helps in terms of production cars.

Not totally true. F1 does have *some* relevance to street cars and production cars, although it's very small. Many F1 technologies eventually make their way into production cars. Also, a lot of knowledge and experience gained in F1 greatly helps in terms of production cars.
Like BBS wheels;)

Your anti-bias toward the German cars and fanboy nature are clearly evident.

The worse Toyota race car is still light years better in performance than any street BMW car.

Comments like these just make me shake my head. I would hope the worst Toyota race car would outperform any BMW street car. I'm pretty sure you can say the same about ANY company. My race car will outperform your street car. Absolutely absurd.

I don't have any doubts Toyota/Lexus COULD produce a car worthy of competing against the M3. Will they choose to however? What myself and I believe others have doubts about is Lexus really going to produce a car so different than the rest of their lineup? The leaf generally doesn't fall far from the tree and I believe this will more likely be the case here. Again, I'd be more than happy if Lexus surprises me, but I doubt it. As a car enthusiast, I'd love for the IS-F to beat the M3, it would only push BMW and other competitors to be better. Competition is a healthy thing.


I'm only pointing out that Lexus is TOYOTA, and TOYOTA has tons and tons of experience building race track vehicles that BMW can't hope to match. Toyota competes in all kinds of track events from Rally to Nascar to F1, just to name a few. BMW simply doesn't have that kind of experience or expertise.

LOL. BMW has a lot more racing history than Toyota and that's nothing against Toyota. If you go to the tracks and events, you'll see a lot more BMWs there than you will see MR2s, MR-S, & Supras. More enthusiasts race BMWs because BMWs build sportier cars throughout their whole lineup. Regardless of their "bloat" or what not. How many IS350s do you see on the track? GS? SCs? LS4xx? Not many as these are luxury oriented cars. I'll throw out a disclaimer again before anyone jumps on my back, these cars are meant to be luxury cars and that's not a knock on them. No one buys a Lexus because they are sportier than its competitors.


Lets not forget, M3 is first and foremost a luxury car(a bloated at that), it is NOT a track car nor was it design to be a track car. It was tested at the track to find flaws, but it is not a Lotus Elise or GT3 type.

How many cars are the Lotus Elise or GT3 type? You are comparing the M3 to a Lotus Elise that's hardly a comfortable street car. And the M3 to a Super car. Lexus doesn't offer anything even close to these cars as well. Let's not forget, Lexus' primary direction is luxury (where they do very well).

I apologize to the mods in advance for my rant but this fan-boyism has to stop. We are all car enthusiasts, right?

I think you're missing the point.

I guess so too, and I finally get your point -- BMW is bad, TOYOTA Rules.

I don't think people who assume M3 will be a better choice than the IS-F are saying Lexus is clueless about making a decent sports car. But if they have a choice, they may just cast their vote to BMW because of their existing production models' reputation.

From the statement provided by RiceMaster and some other Toyota Racing followers, Toyota may have participated in more motorsports event from all over the world than BMW (again, doesn't matter win or not). Here's my observation -- looks like BMW has better usage on the knowledge and experience gained from their "limited" racing history and program to engineer their consumer products that provide better driving experience (i.e., road feedback, handling, etc). Is it about better execution or something else?

Where's the cause of the loss of translation between raw data gained from the racing program and produce a better products on Toyota's side? I am not saying Toyota is making bad products. Camry is a great form of transportation. But isn't it nice for Toyota, with their strong SCM and production cycle, to develop a product that can really win over BMW's potential customers at a lower cost (hence lower price)? You may argue again that BMW's handling is not really that great. This is a thread about BMW and Toyota, and if you go to any local track event, you will see more BMW on the field than Toyota/Lexus.

Maybe IS-F will be the first product that can do that, but this is a discussion thread and we are all guesstimate. To be PC, I wish Toyota/Lexus will have success this time with the IS-F. Hope it makes you feel better and I have no intention to insult your beloved Toyota/Lexus brand, and hurting your feeling is the last thing I want to do in my previous messages.

Chill out guys, or this will be thread 4,510,203,0203,201 with the words "Lexus" and "BMW" in it to be closed.

I think you'll find that if you see a post that is particularly obnoxious, or unbelievable to you, it usually is to others as well, and as such it is better not to reply, but to let that comment wallow and disappear.

Dave, our ADMINISTRATOR, asked TWICE to debate the cars, not make sly remarks or personal attacks or fan flames
Your anti-bias toward the German cars and fanboy nature are clearly evident.
Listen, I don't have to convince you of jack shyte

Are exactly how NOT to post and against his wishes.

CLOSED