Manual-shift automatics (MSA's) - discussion
Manual-shift automatics (MSA's) - discussion
I wonder how the rest of you feel about these trannies. Seems to me that the proper way for them to function should be
a) push forward to downshift (ie 2-1) and
b) pull back to upshift (3-4).
This seems intuitive to me, and also mimics the shifting style used in rally cars, from what I've seen.
Certain manufacturers designed this correctly (Mazda, BMW), while many others have it ***-backwards (Toyota, Nissan, Mitsu, VW, Hyundai, Honda, Audi).
Out in left field is Chrysler, with their WTF-based push left/push right deal.
Which setup do you guys think makes the most sense?
Let's leave paddle-shifters out of this discussion; while I think they are the best choice for certain MSA's (track cars, for example), I want to focus on the 'stick shift' style, as it seems to be the most prevalent.
Also, if you can add to the list of manufacturers and which setup they employ, that would be appreciated.
a) push forward to downshift (ie 2-1) and
b) pull back to upshift (3-4).
This seems intuitive to me, and also mimics the shifting style used in rally cars, from what I've seen.
Certain manufacturers designed this correctly (Mazda, BMW), while many others have it ***-backwards (Toyota, Nissan, Mitsu, VW, Hyundai, Honda, Audi).
Out in left field is Chrysler, with their WTF-based push left/push right deal.
Which setup do you guys think makes the most sense?
Let's leave paddle-shifters out of this discussion; while I think they are the best choice for certain MSA's (track cars, for example), I want to focus on the 'stick shift' style, as it seems to be the most prevalent.
Also, if you can add to the list of manufacturers and which setup they employ, that would be appreciated.
Pole Position
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,465
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
I completely agree with your observation though I think that paddle shifters are better for more than just the track cars. I'd like to add the paddle shift question of should the paddles be stationary or rotate with the wheel? It is more intuitive to me that they rotate with the wheel.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,468
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver, BC
Paddle Shifters should move with the wheel [that's easy]
As for the stick movements, I gotta say I don't think ANY pattern really makes sense. Therefore, push fwd for up-shift and pull back for down-shift seems to be the 'least-worst' theory as it were. But the left/rite idea deffinately looses by far.
Having said that: in my IS300 you don't move the stick at all (as most of us probably know), you push buttons on the steering wheel (up on the back and down on the front)
As for the stick movements, I gotta say I don't think ANY pattern really makes sense. Therefore, push fwd for up-shift and pull back for down-shift seems to be the 'least-worst' theory as it were. But the left/rite idea deffinately looses by far.
Having said that: in my IS300 you don't move the stick at all (as most of us probably know), you push buttons on the steering wheel (up on the back and down on the front)
Racer
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,483
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
I'm generally not a fan of them in general. Rarely do they shift fast enough for me (excluding the new SMG/high-end car manumatics). I prefer a traditional clutch and shifter personally.
If only I could get a 6-speed manual in my GS....
If only I could get a 6-speed manual in my GS....
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,629
Likes: 280
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I don't care for the BMW-Mazda approach of forward-to-downshift / back-to-upshift approach. Full-automatic transmissions (and automanuals in full-automatic mode) have the P-R-N-D-lower gears pattern required by Federal law. That law was instituted back in the late 1960's, for safety and standarization purposes, because each manufacturer, before then, did the shift quadrant (or buttons) a different way. As auto-manual sport-shift transmissions didn't exist back then, of course, there is no law today governing how the manual-shift mode is done. So, like in the 1950's and 1960's with full-automatic transmissions, the sport-shift functions are done a number of different ways, as you note...depending on the manufacturer ( Mercedes, BTW, also uses the side-to-side lever in some of its products, not just Chrysler's Autostick).
So...my opinion? I personally like the forward-upshift/backward downshift motion for the manual mode because it agrees with the full-auto mode, but I think it is even MORE important, right now, to pick ONE pattern, period, an standarize it, once and for all, whether it is the one I agree with or not. I normally am not for more auto regulations, but I think this would be a good one.
So...my opinion? I personally like the forward-upshift/backward downshift motion for the manual mode because it agrees with the full-auto mode, but I think it is even MORE important, right now, to pick ONE pattern, period, an standarize it, once and for all, whether it is the one I agree with or not. I normally am not for more auto regulations, but I think this would be a good one.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 513
Likes: 1
From: VA
I've gotten used to and appreciate the way BMW and Mazda design theirs. Under hard accel, I do feel it's more natural to pull back for upshifts. Under hard braking, pushing forward for downshifts seems appropriate.
As a result, I often missshift the many other manual-modes out there. I hate it most when it ignores your command though. I tried starting our Toyota Avalon rental in 2nd gear and it just showed "2" but started in 1st anyway. Defeats the point.
As a result, I often missshift the many other manual-modes out there. I hate it most when it ignores your command though. I tried starting our Toyota Avalon rental in 2nd gear and it just showed "2" but started in 1st anyway. Defeats the point.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,350
Likes: 1
From: Inside
I believe the new-generation 7-speed SMG is also quicker than any human shift speed as well.
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Ya. the new fully automatic system are quick. There is a reason why they place them in "race" models like the 360CS and enzo. No, it's not as fun as a traditional manual, but the car was made for quickness around a track.
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aliti19 - I agree 100%
mmarshall - thanks for bringing to light the PRNDL set-up - this must be why so many have gone with the forward-upshift setup, although I think it stinks
I plan on getting a GS/LS someday, and seeing as how the chances of a factory manual are near, at, or below zero, I just hope that they put a decent manual-shift auto in them at some point (hopefully an SMG-type). I'd probably be driving one now if it weren't for the current transmissions
mmarshall - thanks for bringing to light the PRNDL set-up - this must be why so many have gone with the forward-upshift setup, although I think it stinks
I plan on getting a GS/LS someday, and seeing as how the chances of a factory manual are near, at, or below zero, I just hope that they put a decent manual-shift auto in them at some point (hopefully an SMG-type). I'd probably be driving one now if it weren't for the current transmissions
Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
I had a 'tip-tronic' in my Passat. I used it about 10 times in 8 years. Just to see if it was worth anything. It was a big 'so what'.
The auto function was just as well shift at redline etc... My point is if I'm stuck with a autobox then might as well just stick with auto mode.
The auto function was just as well shift at redline etc... My point is if I'm stuck with a autobox then might as well just stick with auto mode.
Lead Lap
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 751
Likes: 1
From: CA
pushing forward to downshift and pulling back to upshift makes the most sense to me. but of course, paddle shifters are a better way of shifting as it keeps both hands on the wheel. thankfully, i think everyone agrees that upshift should be the right paddle and downshift is the left. i dont think ive ever seen someone have it the other way around...
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,629
Likes: 280
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
pushing forward to downshift and pulling back to upshift makes the most sense to me. but of course, paddle shifters are a better way of shifting as it keeps both hands on the wheel. thankfully, i think everyone agrees that upshift should be the right paddle and downshift is the left. i dont think ive ever seen someone have it the other way around...
