dont really like the rear too much, like the front though
PhilipMSPT
08-16-07, 12:27 PM
I like the S wheels...
ElitistK
08-16-07, 12:27 PM
still looks like an overgrown g35
skater
08-16-07, 12:45 PM
still looks like an overgrown g35
And doesn't the E-Class look like an overgrown C-Class? Doesn't the GS look like an overgrown IS? 3series to 5 series? What's the point? :uh:
I really don't get your logic. And there's nothing wrong with this direction manufactures take. I think its a smart move in their part.
.
1SICKLEX
08-16-07, 12:50 PM
And doesn't the E-Class look like an overgrown C-Class? Doesn't the GS look like an overgrown IS? 3series to 5 series? What's the point? :uh:
I really don't get your logic. And there's nothing wrong with this direction manufactures take. I think its a smart move in their part.
.
Not when it looks like a G35:D I kid I kid!
Its funny to see a total switch, how the Japanese sedans never looked alike and now they share styling cues, though Lexus IMO does a good job of not looking the same.
On the other end, the Germans went from 1 style, 3 sizes to trying to make their sedans look different.
EZZ
08-16-07, 01:22 PM
The G35 looks like the M35...the M35 predates the new G35 look by a couple years. That doesn't look like a mid-size luxury sedan...looks like a full-size to me.
Hypnotik
08-16-07, 02:03 PM
And doesn't the E-Class look like an overgrown C-Class? Doesn't the GS look like an overgrown IS? 3series to 5 series? What's the point? :uh:
I really don't get your logic. And there's nothing wrong with this direction manufactures take. I think its a smart move in their part.
.
I totally agree. ALL audis have the exact same front end minus the R8. But even still, an a6 is a larger a4 and an a8 looks like a larger a6. Judging by the new C class, it looks like Mercedes is also once again making a big family resemblance; this time with the bulging fenders. They still have their same grille whether it be the luxury or sport grille. All BMWs have a similar look to them. The "bangle" look. Kidney grilles. Lexus has small differentiations in the shape of the headlights but overall the same. The same thing goes with lexus grilles. The ES looks like an LS from a distance as well. This is what we call brand identity. Is that hard to comprehend? L shaped headlights, LED rear tails and grille are what identify each vehicle as infiniti
On to topic...i love the facelift. Looks really good imo
tmf2004
08-16-07, 02:26 PM
Has the body changed from last year to this year? They look the same to me but different of course from the S to the X..
So where exactly is this HUGE likeness between the g35 front end and the M? They have a family resemblance definitely but dont look simply like a bigger version of the other
whoster
08-16-07, 02:46 PM
i still can't get over how FAT the car looks...
and not in a good way either.
ElitistK
08-16-07, 02:47 PM
And doesn't the E-Class look like an overgrown C-Class? Doesn't the GS look like an overgrown IS? 3series to 5 series? What's the point? :uh:
I really don't get your logic. And there's nothing wrong with this direction manufactures take. I think its a smart move in their part.
Finally a Japanese sedan with V8 and available all wheel drive. This will surely put the current GS out of it's misery.
1SICKLEX
08-16-07, 02:50 PM
http://www.ridepowercar.com/includes/images/Nissan_Maxima/2004NM.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7137/teana22re.jpg
The Teana and M35/45 are almost identical.
http://www.pantown.com/data/2594/board4/415-20040723225721.jpg
http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/infiniti2008/800px/08_M45s06.jpg
There's a fine line between family resemblance and being identical.
That picture of the E class and C class does not help your cause. That just shows you are hating on infiniti. The headlights are exactly the same...the C class is just connected and the E isnt. :egads:
Hypnotik
08-16-07, 02:53 PM
http://www.ridepowercar.com/includes/images/Nissan_Maxima/2004NM.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7137/teana22re.jpg
The Teana and M35/45 are almost identical.
http://www.pantown.com/data/2594/board4/415-20040723225721.jpg
http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/infiniti2008/800px/08_M45s06.jpg
Are you really going to start this again?
How about you post pics of a solara and SC. Or how about an ES and Camry. Or how about LX and land cruiser. ES, LS. Rear 3/4 panel of maxima and GS. Please get over it
ElitistK
08-16-07, 02:56 PM
That picture of the E class and C class does not help your cause. That just shows you are hating on infiniti. The headlights are exactly the same...the C class is just connected and the E isnt. :egads:
So the same goes to the IS/GS? the IS has connected headlights but the GS doesn't? :egads::egads::egads:
Hypnotik
08-16-07, 02:56 PM
THe comparison between the G35 and G37 is kinda dumb too. They ARE both G cars. One is a coupe and one is a sedan they are supposed to look similar.
Hypnotik
08-16-07, 02:58 PM
So the same goes to the IS/GS? the IS has connected headlights but the GS doesn't? :egads::egads::egads:
the shape is exactly the same. Separate the C class ones and what do you have. The E class. I dont think the IS and GS look similar. The shape of the M and G headlights are obviously different. if you dont see that then maybe you should get your eyes checked
1SICKLEX
08-16-07, 02:58 PM
http://forum.joomla.org/Smileys/joomla/popcorn.gif
I'm out this thread!! :)
ElitistK
08-16-07, 03:01 PM
Are you really going to start this again?
How about you post pics of a solara and SC. Or how about an ES and Camry. Or how about LX and land cruiser. ES, LS. Rear 3/4 panel of maxima and GS. Please get over it
Windom is the camry. The camry coupe has always borrowed design from the soarer, nothing new (look at the 1995 Camry coupe). It's just re-badging and selling. That's like comparing the old Maxima with the Infiniti I30/I35. I didn't bring up that argument because that's a different story.
Nissan BLATANTLY made the maxima/altima very close to the 2gs. I think any 2gs owner would agree on that.
Hypnotik
08-16-07, 03:02 PM
http://forum.joomla.org/Smileys/joomla/popcorn.gif
I'm out this thread!! :)
ya because you know you are wrong:woot:
ElitistK
08-16-07, 03:04 PM
the shape is exactly the same. Separate the C class ones and what do you have. The E class. I dont think the IS and GS look similar. The shape of the M and G headlights are obviously different. if you dont see that then maybe you should get your eyes checked
Ok man, i'll get my eyes checked out for you. No need to be butthurt when someone bags on the car you drive. Imagine the crap i get from all the maxima/altima owners http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif
Diggin' the updated look. :thumbup: Glad to see they shrunk the huge tail lights from the previous model...although it does look like G35 tail lights now.
dunnojack
08-16-07, 03:47 PM
yeah. the smaller back lights are better. old one was fat assed.
but the car still looks dated.
MikeSC4
08-16-07, 04:16 PM
I'll take the white M45S please. Why so much Infiniti hating here? Is it because they can actually make a car that handles well? Anyways similar to the G or not, I'd totally rock the 08 M45 over the boring GS or anything else in its class.
1SICKLEX
08-16-07, 04:25 PM
I'll take the white M45S please. Why so much Infiniti hating here? Is it because they can actually make a car that handles well? Anyways similar to the G or not, I'd totally rock the 08 M45 over the boring GS or anything else in its class.
So on the internet, people cannot post their thoughts?:uh:No, its called "hating". lol
Oh noes, Lexus can't handle, they crash in turns!!!:D
No one here has said its a bad or poor car. Quite the contrary, its a fine ride. Don't expect everyone to be floored by it.
GS3Tek
08-16-07, 04:46 PM
Just for comparisons sake
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x141/InfinitiMichael/Blueslatest8on.jpg
http://www.nissannews.com/multimedia/infiniti2008/800px/08_M45X01.jpg
Don't tell me they used S as in type S also.
No hatin' on my part:p
They look good, even mercedes is borrowing the headlight:p
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108245&stc=1&d=1184578373
MPLexus301
08-16-07, 06:42 PM
Very nice updates IMO. The interiors especially look nice...right colors and contrasts in the right places.
marshmallo
08-16-07, 07:06 PM
They made the car blander. Truth be told I liked the previous
M45 sport and associated aero package better. I am not going to
be rushing out to trade in my GS300AWD for a M45X that's for sure.
Incidentally I was just at the Infiniti dealer checking out the new G37
and it will absolutely sell. They covered up the hideous chrome spoiler
with a good old fashioned plastic one that looks good. I even considered
leasing one for 5 minutes until I closed the door and remembered how
crappy Infiniti's materials are in comparison to Lexus. No hating, just
stating an honest opinion...
LetMeShowU
08-16-07, 07:56 PM
I'll take the white M45S please. Why so much Infiniti hating here? Is it because they can actually make a car that handles well? Anyways similar to the G or not, I'd totally rock the 08 M45 over the boring GS or anything else in its class.
Indeed :thumbup:
The M has more character in its grille than in the entire GS frame. Seriously, I've said this before and I'll say it again - Lexus removed all the character that the previous generation GS had and replaced it with blandness.
The M has style, character, features, reliability, and excellent handling to boot. Add an AWD system to the V8 and I agree with what Och said in that it should finally put the GS out of its misery.
Maybe then Lexus will wake up and realize that their "performance luxury sedan" needs to look and perform like the sports sedan it claims to be - and not a feminine-looking cruiser.
1SICKLEX
08-16-07, 08:13 PM
Indeed :thumbup:
The M has more character in its grille than in the entire GS frame. Seriously, I've said this before and I'll say it again - Lexus removed all the character that the previous generation GS had and replaced it with blandness.
The M has style, character, features, reliability, and excellent handling to boot. Add an AWD system to the V8 and I agree with what Och said in that it should finally put the GS out of its misery.
Maybe then Lexus will wake up and realize that their "performance luxury sedan" needs to look and perform like the sports sedan it claims to be - and not a feminine-looking cruiser.
Amazing, to put the GS out its misery. How about a reminder.
M30 discontinued. GS 300 comes out. Not a home run, but shows the GErmans the Japanese can build an interesting sedan. Infiniti lags.
2GS debuts, wins multiple awards, showing the Japanese can indeed build a top luxury sports sedan. Where was Infiniti?
Then they bring us a M45, which makes matters worse, loses badly in every single comparo, does nothing to help the cause.
After 2 years, a new M35/45 comes out. Home run, no doubt. 3GS debuts as well, a double, triple in GS 450h form.
GS outsells M 35/45 first year, (not sure who outsold who 2nd year but lets give it to the M35/45), GS has basically no V-8 model sold this year and only the GS 450h (limited production). M has lease deals galore, etc.
M leads GS by 600 sales YTD.
Yet you say "put the GS out its misery".:uh::uh:
When the M 30/35/45 wasn't even around, the GS was the ONLY Japanese sports sedan holding it down for the East. Remember that.:)
marshmallo
08-16-07, 08:40 PM
Indeed :thumbup:
...
Add an AWD system to the V8 and I agree with what Och said in that it should finally put the GS out of its misery.
Maybe then Lexus will wake up and realize that their "performance luxury sedan" needs to look and perform like the sports sedan it claims to be - and not a feminine-looking cruiser.
Add an AWD system to that inefficient V8 and you will have a gas guzzler
of unbelievable proportions. Remember it is a Nissan engine and it only has 5 speeds.
Refinement is not their strong point.
The 3GS is a bit bland, but you cannot convince me that the M is a
ground breaking design...
skater
08-16-07, 09:29 PM
Oh great... 1SICKLEX has done it again. His infamous random vehicle comparison images. I thought he would grow out of such a bad habit; guess not. Yet, if I do the same on Lexus, its automatically incorrect. He's always doing these "Hit & Runs" and then states he's out of this thread :uh:
ElitistK, those pictures didn't help your claim at all. The Mercedes Benz pictures were just laughably against your own personal stance on family resemblance.
I expected something better out of this forum; I always thought of most Lexus owners as a bit more mature and open minded.
As far as the GS & IS in terms of family resemblance... I see it almost as close as the G35-M35 resemblance; althought I'll admit that the M resembles the G a bit more than the GS does to the IS.
There's a Lexus GS430 [& G35] in our family garage that I admire every dat for its greatness. But that doesn't mean im going to be completely close minded like some individuals here.
Sadly, all of this bashing is reflecting this site negatively. But i'm sure some will consider this bashing just "opinions" :egads:
.
CK6Speed
08-16-07, 09:44 PM
Oh great... 1SICKLEX has done it again. His infamous random vehicle comparison images. I thought he would grow out of such a bad habit; guess not. Yet, if I do the same on Lexus, its automatically incorrect. He's always doing these "Hit & Runs" and then states he's out of this thread :uh:
ElitistK, those pictures didn't help your claim at all. The Mercedes Benz pictures were just laughably against your own personal stance on family resemblance.
I expected something better out of this forum; I always thought of most Lexus owners as a bit more mature and open minded.
As far as the GS & IS in terms of family resemblance... I see it almost as close as the G35-M35 resemblance; althought I'll admit that the M resembles the G a bit more than the GS does to the IS.
There's a Lexus GS430 [& G35] in our family garage that I admire every dat for its greatness. But that doesn't mean im going to be completely close minded like some individuals here.
Sadly, all of this bashing is reflecting this site negatively. But i'm sure some will consider this bashing just "opinions" :egads:
.
Only 30 something posts in this topic with a few different individuals and you conclude the entire Club Lexus shares the same opinions? I guess when they say the squeaky wheel gets the grease it applies to the few vocal members of any car forum will be thought of as having the voice of the entire forum?
I said it many times in other posts. I think the M35/45 is the best car in its class. With the new 07+ GS35/37 I think Infiniti may also have another best in class car.
You have to expect that owners of certain manufacturers will have vocal biases for their own brand whether they are purely opinions or actually based on fact. Opinions are just that. Opinions. No need to get too upset about it. Now, if you are correcting a factual error that is one thing, but trying to change other peoples opinions is pretty pointless unless it is based on false facts. But even then most of the time people don't care and will continue to believe the wrong information that formed their opinion. The best thing to do is add your two cents about the car and move on.
cherplex
08-16-07, 09:51 PM
Another Infiniti bashing *sigh*.........
MikeSC4
08-16-07, 09:56 PM
So on the internet, people cannot post their thoughts?:uh:No, its called "hating". lol
Oh noes, Lexus can't handle, they crash in turns!!!:D
No one here has said its a bad or poor car. Quite the contrary, its a fine ride. Don't expect everyone to be floored by it.
Lexus may not crash in turns, but they certainly don't handle well enough to be called a sports sedan. The term "sports sedan" is thrown around too loosely nowadays.
Anyways I think the facelift M looks great. I dont know why people complain that it looks like the G, its called brand identity. Double arch grill, L shape headlights and tailights are signature Infiniti. Benz all look the same across the board. BMW has the kidney grills and halo lights. Audi A4-A8 all look the same. Even Acuras have an identity most noted by the new grilles. Lexus seems to be lacking continuity across the lineup. I just wish they threw in some more bold design cues. But hey... I guess whatever sells cars.
skater
08-16-07, 10:02 PM
Only 30 something posts in this topic with a few different individuals and you conclude the entire Club Lexus shares the same opinions? I guess when they say the squeaky wheel gets the grease it applies to the few vocal members of any car forum will be thought of as having the voice of the entire forum?
I said it many times in other posts. I think the M35/45 is the best car in its class. With the new 07+ GS35/37 I think Infiniti may also have another best in class car.
You have to expect that owners of certain manufacturers will have vocal biases for their own brand whether they are purely opinions or actually based on fact. Opinions are just that. Opinions. No need to get too upset about it. Now, if you are correcting a factual error that is one thing, but trying to change other peoples opinions is pretty pointless unless it is based on false facts. But even then most of the time people don't care and will continue to believe the wrong information that formed their opinion. The best thing to do is add your two cents about the car and move on.
By no means did I mean to generalize the whole Cluxlexus.com community. My apologies for my wrongful wordings.
It's just that there are a few particular members in here who possess such a close minded & narrow views. Either that, or im not seeing something they are. [Those few individuals seem to play a big role in this community].
IE. The familiy resemblance problem is only brough up as an issue with Infiniti vehicles. When in reality, its about the same with every manufacture. Some members even go as far as saying "sameness".
I'll leave it to this: I respectully, completely disagree with the Family resemblance "issue" and the random picture comparison images.
Once again, I apollogize for generalizing the whole community; that was certainly not my intentions.
.
skater
08-16-07, 10:05 PM
Lexus may not crash in turns, but they certainly don't handle well enough to be called a sports sedan. The term "sports sedan" is thrown around too loosely nowadays.
Anyways I think the facelift M looks great. I dont know why people complain that it looks like the G, its called brand identity. Double arch grill, L shape headlights and tailights are signature Infiniti. Benz all look the same across the board. BMW has the kidney grills and halo lights. Audi A4-A8 all look the same. Even Acuras have an identity most noted by the new grilles. Lexus seems to be lacking continuity across the lineup. I just wish they threw in some more bold design cues. But hey... I guess whatever sells cars.
We share the same opinion in regards to brand identity.
.
CK6Speed
08-16-07, 10:30 PM
By no means did I mean to generalize the whole Cluxlexus.com community. My apologies for my wrongful wordings.
It's just that there are a few particular members in here who possess such a close minded & narrow views. Either that, or im not seeing something they are. [Those few individuals seem to play a big role in this community].
IE. The familiy resemblance problem is only brough up as an issue with Infiniti vehicles. When in reality, its about the same with every manufacture. Some members even go as far as saying "sameness".
I'll leave it to this: I respectully, completely disagree with the Family resemblance "issue" and the random picture comparison images.
Once again, I apollogize for generalizing the whole community; that was certainly not my intentions.
.
You have to realize just don't take things too personally on any car forum. I own a BMW as well so I'm on various BMW forums. Some of the comments from members there are borderline racists when it comes to most other Japanese competitors. I used to own a lot of Acura cars before and there are also a lot of closed minded people there. Same as here. What you need to learn to do is weed out the facts from the fanboy opinions. A lot of these somewhat biased members also have very good factual knowledge about the Lexus line of cars, so you might learn a lot of cool info about the Lexus which really is why you'd come to a Lexus forum anyway. If you wanted to learn more factual knowledge about the Infiniti, you'd probably should learn from Infiniti owners who know more about that car than others.
UDel
08-16-07, 11:04 PM
I like the interior but I wish they offered a light birds eye maple wood or a dark cherry. I don't really care for the color of that wood in the picture or what is available now although some people really like it. Plus I think cars in this price segment should have power heated and cooled rear seats and rear radio/cd players with headphones pretty much standard by now. There are too many less expensive cars out there that pretty much have all the options these 50K cars have available and auto manufactures need to set these cars apart with more standard features not available on less expensive cars and nicer more exotic materials. I have been in several GM SUVs that have rear heated seats and radios and pretty much all the options currently available in most mid size 50K luxury cars which is pretty sad. Still I like the M45, I just wish it was a little lower and sleeker like the concept and pre production show car with white leather accents.
TRDFantasy
08-17-07, 01:39 AM
"Put the GS out of it's misery"
Do some of you have a personal vendetta against the GS or something? Comments like those are just plain ridiculous :thumbdn:.
For all those that consider CL a mature and open minded community, you're only making it worse by posting narrow minded comments such as "put the GS out of it's misery".
Oh and for the record, the M45x will do little to change M sales. GS460 should do more for GS sales just because for 2007 so far the GS430 has a been a special order item, so as SICK said GS this year was selling without the V8 model basically.
DASHOCKER
08-17-07, 09:24 AM
Infiniti M series cars are excellent and are well made vehicles. Society is filled with the have and have nots. Infiniti should host a driving event this year so folks who have not owned or driven these cars can actually get behind the wheel and experience them instead of getting pudgy, eating bon bons, and relying on car magazine comparos. :)
carguy101
08-17-07, 09:48 AM
Nice improvements inside and out.
A bit disappointed that they didn't upgrade the powertrain.
Funny, when the M35 and M45 first came out just a couple years ago, they were pretty much the fastest vehicles in their respective classes. Since then:
530i --> 535i
GS300 --> GS350
545i --> 550i
GS430 --> GS460
E500 --> E550
So now, the M35 and M45 are among the slowest. M37 and M50 are inevitable. Go hp wars, go!
speedflex
08-17-07, 10:25 AM
Nice improvements inside and out.
A bit disappointed that they didn't upgrade the powertrain.
Funny, when the M35 and M45 first came out just a couple years ago, they were pretty much the fastest vehicles in their respective classes. Since then:
530i --> 535i
GS300 --> GS350
545i --> 550i
GS430 --> GS460
E500 --> E550
So now, the M35 and M45 are among the slowest. M37 and M50 are inevitable. Go hp wars, go!
Not sure about what you're saying. I don't have the latest acceleration numbers for each of these cars but it sounds like you're saying larger displacement equals speed, which is not necessarily so. It's true that the 5 and GS cars have gone up in displacement but I'm not sure how much of a speed boost they got in the process. And keep in mind that the M cars already had bigger engines that most of their competitors to start with. So now it looks like this: M35-3.5V6 vs. GS350-3.5V6 vs. 535-3.5V6. All are 3.5s now. M45-4.5V8 vs. GS460-4.6V8 vs. 545-4.5V8. All pretty even now.
But you're right... Infiniti is probably readying new engines for the M cars.
Bean
08-17-07, 12:22 PM
There's a pretty big difference between the 3rd gen GS300 and the GS350. Displacement DOES add power for the most part and the 2GR in the Lexus is pretty spectacular. It dynos higher than even the new 3.7L V6 Infiniti has in the G37 coupe when you compare auto to auto. Almost all dyno numbers released comparing the two have been auto vs manual.
Also, the GS430 to GS460 jump is MUCH more than just a .3L displacement increase. You're looking at a near 100hp jump in power output with better gas mileage.... I'd say thats rather significant wouldnt you?
Add an AWD system to that inefficient V8 and you will have a gas guzzler
of unbelievable proportions.
Right, because anyone who can afford an M45x is terribly concerned about gas mileage. :rolleyes:
Any AWD V8 mid size sedan is going to deliver poor mpg #'s, so I don't really see what your point is.
Remember it is a Nissan engine and it only has 5 speeds.
Refinement is not their strong point.
The 3GS is a bit bland, but you cannot convince me that the M is a
ground breaking design...
Not groundbreaking, but very appealing nonetheless. Strong stance, smooth lines, aggressive, yet not too aggressive styling. It's a winner and it doesn't look like an ordinary sedan (*cough cough* Maxima *cough cough*) like the GS does (no matter how many useless photos 1SickLex posts to try to convince everyone otherwise).
marshmallo
08-17-07, 05:15 PM
Right, because anyone who can afford an M45x is terribly concerned about gas mileage. :rolleyes:
Any AWD V8 mid size sedan is going to deliver poor mpg #'s, so I don't really see what your point is.
My point is Lexus builds engines that make Nissan's engines look crude.
I test drove the M45 and then the LS460 in a very short span and came
away much more impressed by the LS460.
Not groundbreaking, but very appealing nonetheless. Strong stance, smooth lines, aggressive, yet not too aggressive styling. It's a winner and it doesn't look like an ordinary sedan (*cough cough* Maxima *cough cough*) like the GS does (no matter how many useless photos 1SickLex posts to try to convince everyone otherwise).
The difference is that the GS looks like a Maxima while the M
IS a Maxima...
blacksc400
08-17-07, 05:35 PM
The M is not a Maxima, it is Gloria in Japan, RWD VS FWD Maxima...
and they finally made the taillight look better, I hate the rear of the M and that's the reason I don't put it in my shopping list...
now I can seriously consider it... :)
Gojirra99
08-17-07, 05:41 PM
M35/45 is Fuga in Japan ...
1SICKLEX
08-17-07, 06:02 PM
Right, because anyone who can afford an M45x is terribly concerned about gas mileage. :rolleyes:
You can go into your OWN Nissan forum and see threads about dismal gas mileage. Clearly its not a huge issue but it is an issue.
Any AWD V8 mid size sedan is going to deliver poor mpg #'s, so I don't really see what your point is.
The 5 and GS have really good gas mileage as a V-8. The GS450h is amazing, faster or as fast as these V-8s with fuel economy in the 20s. That is TRUE advancement.
Not groundbreaking, but very appealing nonetheless. Strong stance, smooth lines, aggressive, yet not too aggressive styling. It's a winner and it doesn't look like an ordinary sedan (*cough cough* Maxima *cough cough*) like the GS does (no matter how many useless photos 1SickLex posts to try to convince everyone otherwise).
It looks ordinary to me and tons of people. Automobile just stated in their Long term Write up how "bland" it was to look at and no one stared at it. Styling is subjective, you seem to love it, others are not impressed. If you don't see similarities, I cannot even take you serious.
Overall, again, its a fine car, its selling well, its performed well, its a hit, no doubt. Don't expect everyone to share your exact sentiments.
God is in the details. God loves Lexus!!
LetMeShowU
08-17-07, 07:18 PM
You can go into your OWN Nissan forum and see threads about dismal gas mileage. Clearly its not a huge issue but it is an issue.
I don't have my own Nissan forum.
The 5 and GS have really good gas mileage as a V-8.
The gas mileage on both is "ok", but nothing to brag about. They're still V8s and thus, by nature, gas guzzlers. Adding AWD will only bring down the mpg even further, which was the point of my post.
The GS450h is amazing, faster or as fast as these V-8s with fuel economy in the 20s. That is TRUE advancement.
True advancement would have been fuel economy in the 30s. I'm sorry, but for a hybrid, I think most were expecting better #'s with the 450h. The LS600h is even more disappointing. I still can't understand why anyone would buy that car over the standard LS460L, when it produces practically the same 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers and delivers the same exact mpg #'s as well :uh:
Both models are a stepping stone to bigger and better things of course, but there's a reason why the 450h isn't selling (average fuel economy, uninspiring design).
1SICKLEX
08-17-07, 08:58 PM
I don't have my own Nissan forum.
Try freshalloy, tons of MPG talk there.
The gas mileage on both is "ok", but nothing to brag about. They're still V8s and thus, by nature, gas guzzlers. Adding AWD will only bring down the mpg even further, which was the point of my post.
I know all about gas guzzling.:D I get 16 when I'm flooring it, 24 on the highway behaving. The GS 430 engine debuted in 2001 and a bore/stroke of the 4.0, not really an all new engine. It dates back to 1992 with the original 1UZ. VVti added in 1998 helped with power and fuel economy.
The M45 engine is from the Q45 engine, an all new engine in 2002. It does has .2 more cubes of displacement and it gets worse gas mileage than the GS 430.
Clearly AWD brings gas mileage down. No point needs to be made, that is common knowledge.
As you stated and I agree with, gas mileage is not a major concern with V-8 buyers.:)
True advancement would have been fuel economy in the 30s. I'm sorry, but for a hybrid, I think most were expecting better #'s with the 450h.
You can't say that, since Nissan cannot even develop a hybrid synergy drive system. They buy the OLD Toyota systems. The GS 450h is not the cure to all problems but there is nothing else like it. It was a huge risk and gamble and the only car more technologically advanced is its bigger brother the LS 600h L. Its main drawback is the small trunk. It is the first of its kind. How can you say this is not advanced?
20-25%% better fuel economy than a V-8.
V-8 performance. It is the fastest Lexus according to Lexus. 0-60 in 5.2 and high 13 second 1/4 mile times.
340hp. 40 more than the GS 430.
Weight is almost not an issue. It weighs 4100lbs WITH battery packs. The M45 weighs over 4000, as the E550.
The LS600h is even more disappointing. I still can't understand why anyone would buy that car over the standard LS460L, when it produces practically the same 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers and delivers the same exact mpg #'s as well :uh:
You don't understand that market. Lexus clearly does, almost everyone is spoken for. Again, its the first of its kind. Look how far the Prius has come from its first generation to today.
Both models are a stepping stone to bigger and better things of course, but there's a reason why the 450h isn't selling (average fuel economy, uninspiring design).
The 450h is selling. It is a LIMITED VOLUME MODEL. Only 2,000 for the USA and they sell them all. :)
skater
08-17-07, 09:55 PM
You have to realize just don't take things too personally on any car forum. I own a BMW as well so I'm on various BMW forums. Some of the comments from members there are borderline racists when it comes to most other Japanese competitors. I used to own a lot of Acura cars before and there are also a lot of closed minded people there. Same as here. What you need to learn to do is weed out the facts from the fanboy opinions. A lot of these somewhat biased members also have very good factual knowledge about the Lexus line of cars, so you might learn a lot of cool info about the Lexus which really is why you'd come to a Lexus forum anyway. If you wanted to learn more factual knowledge about the Infiniti, you'd probably should learn from Infiniti owners who know more about that car than others.
I understand your point :thumbup:
My point is Lexus builds engines that make Nissan's engines look crude.
I test drove the M45 and then the LS460 in a very short span and came
away much more impressed by the LS460.
The difference is that the GS looks like a Maxima while the M
IS a Maxima...
There's two things wrong with this statement:
1) The LS460 is another level beyond the M45; Infiniti has yet to offer a true competitor to the LS & 7-Series. I will agree to the fact that Nissan engines feel rougher as compared to Toyota engines; but that's what I love about the Nissan engines... its such a thrill to push, whereas Toyota's engines feel much more refined & suble as far as "feel". It's all about personal preference.
2) The M35/M45 is not a Maxima; its a Nissan Fuga over in Japan.
MikeSC4
08-17-07, 10:27 PM
Buying a high performance hybrid car is pointless IMO. If you're concerned about mileage you shouldn't be going 0-60 in 5.4 seconds anyway. If I purchased a top of the line V8 I wouldn't be too concerned about mileage. Instead I'm concerned about whether or not theres open road so I can floor the beast every chance I get.
And as stated before the M looks nothing like the Maxima. The only similarities are that they are large in size and have quad exhaust tips. I remember being on these boards when the 3GS was revealed. All I read was how similar it looked to the Maxima. And of course comparison pics followed.
Hypnotik
08-17-07, 11:14 PM
The difference is that the GS looks like a Maxima while the M
IS a Maxima...
:egads::egads::egads:
The M is the nissan fuga first of all, and an M looks nothing like a maxima. The GS already mimicked that look;)
marshmallo
08-18-07, 12:59 AM
Fuga, Shmuga, this is a cowardly, gutless design :thumbdn:
GFerg
08-18-07, 02:05 AM
At least from my point of view, the M35 and Maxima share way to many similarities. Nissan like other companies like to have a certain family resemblance. The M35 is a Nissan (Fuga) so it will share certain characteristics. Nothing really wrong with that (for some people), but its a given. Like others said, it is not a bad car (I respect it), but its also not great...at least to me.
Lastly, as a Maxima owner and lover, the current 6th gen Maxima is a clear rip off of the 1st and 2nd gen GS. No GS looks like a Maxima, its the other way around. No Maxima before the 6th gen ever had the styling characteristics of a GS (long hood, short deck, sloping roof line). ANd during the process they totally forgot about what the Nissan Maxima means to the enthusiast. :thumbdn:
RX_330
08-18-07, 12:38 PM
I'm digging the M45x!!
I still love the interior of the M. :)
Hypnotik
08-18-07, 01:10 PM
Fuga, Shmuga, this is a cowardly, gutless design :thumbdn:
A cowardly gutless design that took alot of the E, 5 and GS market share :uh:. Time and time again this car has outperformed the competition. (FACT) The GS is definitely no breakthrough design. I mean it did copy e-class headlights and current gen maxima. :p And for a car that is supposedly very successful, it sure doesnt have the sales numbers of bmw and mercedes. No headroom in the rear and small trunk probably and the so-so design contributed to that
TRDFantasy
08-18-07, 01:44 PM
I don't have my own Nissan forum.
The gas mileage on both is "ok", but nothing to brag about. They're still V8s and thus, by nature, gas guzzlers. Adding AWD will only bring down the mpg even further, which was the point of my post.
True advancement would have been fuel economy in the 30s. I'm sorry, but for a hybrid, I think most were expecting better #'s with the 450h. The LS600h is even more disappointing. I still can't understand why anyone would buy that car over the standard LS460L, when it produces practically the same 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers and delivers the same exact mpg #'s as well :uh:
Both models are a stepping stone to bigger and better things of course, but there's a reason why the 450h isn't selling (average fuel economy, uninspiring design).
Gas mileage in the 30s? For a high powered V8 RWD luxury sedan? You're kidding right? At this point, technology and physics make that impossible. Maybe in a few decades.
Again, the GS and 5 Series V8 models both have very good (class leading) fuel economy. The LS460 also has class leading fuel economy. The car weights over 4000lbs, and achieves better fuel economy to an M45, a lighter and less powerful car. Now that's advancement.
As for the LS600h, it weighs roughly 5000lbs (about the weight of a full size pickup) AND it has AWD. Plus, the LS600h is rated using 2008 EPA numbers that use a more stringest testing method. The LS460 is currently rated using 2007 EPA ratings, so the 2008 LS460 will see it's fuel economy ratings drop.
All real-world reviews so far show that the LS hybrid achieves noticeably better fuel economy than an LS460.
LetMeShowU
08-18-07, 05:48 PM
Gas mileage in the 30s? For a high powered V8 RWD luxury sedan? You're kidding right? At this point, technology and physics make that impossible. Maybe in a few decades.
Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I was referring to the 3.5L V6 in the GS450h - You know, the same engine that gets 30mpg in the Toyota Avalon. How can you say it's impossible for the same engine to get at least the same if not better mpg with a hybrid electric motor attached to it when it already achieves 30 mpg in a non-hybrid form? :uh:
I think that's what's so disappointing about this car. It's the same engine that gets 30mpg on the highway in the Avalon, yet gets fewer mpg in the GS which is a hybrid. Sorry, but I guess I just don't see the GS450h achieving mpg in the 30s as such an impossibility like you do.
1BlackM3
08-19-07, 11:30 AM
I like the design of the M better than the GS. The GS looks so much like the Avalon it's crazy. Lexus needs to get away from toyota as much as possible even the LS looks like a stretch Camry.
Infiniti has become a bigger threat to BMW than Lexus. I mean the entry level Lexus is a front wheel drive sedan. The IS is a Corolla with a kit on it with a large motor. Thats why it's a woman car.
With the M you're getting performance and luxury not just luxury like the GS.
RA40
08-19-07, 12:28 PM
I like it...sure there is a family resemeblance. Though with many current cars, there are enough styling ques that are variations on other manufacturers.
For the enthusiast certainly whatever they want... they motivate the companies to give me more car for the $$ spent. :) A strong engine is nice and makes for additional sales motivation. For me, I'm less particular if the car does the 1/4 in 14.5 or 15. LA/OC isn't conductive to Autobahn level driving so anytime I can get the car up to 70, it is a gift here. I do like MPG since we'll take modest 200-400 miles drives. Certainly in town I don't want to experience 14 MPG.
As they say...if they build it and good enough, I'll be inclined to consider or buy it. :thumbup: So far Lexus has done what I like and my other contender is Infinity.
TRDFantasy
08-19-07, 03:56 PM
Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I was referring to the 3.5L V6 in the GS450h - You know, the same engine that gets 30mpg in the Toyota Avalon. How can you say it's impossible for the same engine to get at least the same if not better mpg with a hybrid electric motor attached to it when it already achieves 30 mpg in a non-hybrid form? :uh:
I think that's what's so disappointing about this car. It's the same engine that gets 30mpg on the highway in the Avalon, yet gets fewer mpg in the GS which is a hybrid. Sorry, but I guess I just don't see the GS450h achieving mpg in the 30s as such an impossibility like you do.
In your post you were talking about V8 engines as well as the GS hybrid.
Also, FYI the 2008 Avalon gets 19/28 EPA mpg.
http://www.toyota.com/avalon/specs.html
The 2008 GS450h gets 25/28 EPA mpg. Compared to the Avalon, the GS is quite a bit heavier, offers more HP and torque, offers way better overall performance compared to the Avalon. and much better emissions. Apples to apples, based on 2008 EPA ratings the GS hybrid beats the Avalon in the city by 6mpg, and ties it on hwy mpg. Such an accomplishment can only be considered an advancement.
You must understand all cars will see their EPA ratings drop for 2008 because of the new, more stringest testing system. The LS hybrid and GS hybrid will look a lot more efficient in the eyes of critics once they see the EPA ratings for all other 2008 vehicles.
I like the design of the M better than the GS. The GS looks so much like the Avalon it's crazy. Lexus needs to get away from toyota as much as possible even the LS looks like a stretch Camry.
Infiniti has become a bigger threat to BMW than Lexus. I mean the entry level Lexus is a front wheel drive sedan. The IS is a Corolla with a kit on it with a large motor. Thats why it's a woman car.
With the M you're getting performance and luxury not just luxury like the GS.
Are you sure you didn't confuse the GS with the M?
http://www.lexus.com/lexus-share/images/gallery/models/GS/photos/exterior/g_ext5.jpg
That M sure looks awfully similar to the 1st gen Avalon.
LetMeShowU
08-19-07, 05:58 PM
In your post you were talking about V8 engines as well as the GS hybrid.
Also, FYI the 2008 Avalon gets 19/28 EPA mpg.
http://www.toyota.com/avalon/specs.html
The 2008 GS450h gets 25/28 EPA mpg. Compared to the Avalon, the GS is quite a bit heavier, offers more HP and torque, offers way better overall performance compared to the Avalon. and much better emissions. Apples to apples, based on 2008 EPA ratings the GS hybrid beats the Avalon in the city by 6mpg, and ties it on hwy mpg. Such an accomplishment can only be considered an advancement.
25/28 is decent gas mileage, but not good enough to be called a hybrid, IMO. Unlike all other hybrids, the mpg of the GS450h does not justify the additional expense over the base model (GS350). Everyone knows the Camry hybrid costs more than the SE, but after several years of ownership, the additional mpg should balance out the difference in initial cost. That is the point I am trying to make here.
Yes, the 450h is powerful and performs well, but it's still a hybrid. I don't think 25/28 is that great of an advancement, especially when compared to the cheaper, almost as powerful and almost as fuel efficient GS350.
1SICKLEX
08-19-07, 06:29 PM
25/28 is decent gas mileage, but not good enough to be called a hybrid, IMO. Unlike all other hybrids, the mpg of the GS450h does not justify the additional expense over the base model (GS350). Everyone knows the Camry hybrid costs more than the SE, but after several years of ownership, the additional mpg should balance out the difference in initial cost. That is the point I am trying to make here.
Yes, the 450h is powerful and performs well, but it's still a hybrid. I don't think 25/28 is that great of an advancement, especially when compared to the cheaper, almost as powerful and almost as fuel efficient GS350.
Dude, they cannot MAKE a hybrid. No one else can make a RWD, AWD V-8 or V-6 hyrbid but Lexus;) I dont' care if it makes 10 MPG, its a hybrid. You keep forgetting it makes MORE power and is faster than the M45.:)
You cannot talk about the "cost" of ownership as that is VARIABLE. A hybrid makes more sense from a MPG standpoint if you DRIVE MORE. To others, they like the "Greener" image and the emissions are much cleaner than a gas engine. Until Nissan can stop buying Toyota tech and make their own, you really should not harp on the GS 450h.
Both cars are sensational, GS and M. As well as the E and 5. Even the RL, S80 (Volvo), STS, etc are all superb. Guess what they all look like something. So lets us all (including me) stop debating that subjective point.
This class has never been better.
bitkahuna
08-19-07, 06:50 PM
Seems Infiniti threads generate more passion than anything outside the debate forum. :p
I still don't care for the center stack on the M and they need at least a 6 speed auto. :egads: Apart from that though, it's a great car. :thumbup:
TRDFantasy
08-19-07, 07:26 PM
25/28 is decent gas mileage, but not good enough to be called a hybrid, IMO. Unlike all other hybrids, the mpg of the GS450h does not justify the additional expense over the base model (GS350). Everyone knows the Camry hybrid costs more than the SE, but after several years of ownership, the additional mpg should balance out the difference in initial cost. That is the point I am trying to make here.
Yes, the 450h is powerful and performs well, but it's still a hybrid. I don't think 25/28 is that great of an advancement, especially when compared to the cheaper, almost as powerful and almost as fuel efficient GS350.
That's your opinion. With all things considered, there is NO car in the world that provides the combination of performance, refinement, super low emissions, and fuel economy. A diesel E Class or 5 Series doesn't cut it because they have less refinement due to diesel powertrains and significantly more emissions than the GS hybrid.
Considering this is the 1st RWD hybrid Toyota has *ever* done (LS hybrid being the 2nd) I'd say it's a pretty damn good achievement. You can't expect amazing advancement from the 1st generation.
RX_330
08-19-07, 07:42 PM
That's your opinion. With all things considered, there is NO car in the world that provides the combination of performance, refinement, super low emissions, and fuel economy. A diesel E Class or 5 Series doesn't cut it because they have less refinement due to diesel powertrains and significantly more emissions than the GS hybrid.
Considering this is the 1st RWD hybrid Toyota has *ever* done (LS hybrid being the 2nd) I'd say it's a pretty damn good achievement. You can't expect amazing advancement from the 1st generation.
How does being a diesel automatically make the E and 5 less refined? We're not in the '80s or '90s anymore.
TRDFantasy
08-19-07, 10:59 PM
How does being a diesel automatically make the E and 5 less refined? We're not in the '80s or '90s anymore.
A diesel 5 or E compared to a GS hybrid? Well, the GS engine first off is detuned for further refinement and fuel efficiency at the cost of less power. Then the hybrid system is added and that includes an eCVT. So you have a very smooth and very refined gas engine tuned for refinement and fuel economy as well as a CVT where you feel no gear shifts. Also, you sometimes will run on electric power completely and the car will be totally silent. A diesel can't beat that, nor can a gas engine. A GS hybrid is more refined not just than it's diesel competition, but against any gas-engined competition.
Modern diesels are close to gas engines in refinement, but neither can beat the refinement of a gas-hybrid system.
Compared to any of it's competition, the GS hybrid's refinement is at a point where often you can't tell what speed the car is travelling at without looking at the meter.
speedflex
08-20-07, 08:47 AM
Seems Infiniti threads generate more passion than anything outside the debate forum. :p
So true. At Infiniti forums like Freshalloy Lexus rarely comes up as a topic but here it seems there's a new Infiniti thread every week and they usually tend to be the most active threads in the room.
Not good or bad. Just an observation.
1SICKLEX
08-20-07, 11:29 AM
So true. At Infiniti forums like Freshalloy Lexus rarely comes up as a topic but here it seems there's a new Infiniti thread every week and they usually tend to be the most active threads in the room.
Not good or bad. Just an observation.
1. This forum is car chat, all cars are discussed.:)
2. Search Freshalloy and type "Lexus" and see what happens.;)
Guys lets keep the topic on the cars, particularly the M35/45.
I do have a question, is the M45x and the A6 4.2 the only AWD V-8 cars in this class?
Gojirra99
08-20-07, 11:30 AM
I do have a question, is the M45x and the A6 4.2 the only AWD V-8 cars in this class?No, E-class V8 has the 4matic.
1SICKLEX
08-20-07, 11:32 AM
No, E-class V8 has the 4matic.
Wow, so 3 cars. I wonder what sales are like? Sadly the only AWD Lexus V-8 is the 600h L.:(
nikko2jzge
08-20-07, 01:00 PM
I like the design of the M better than the GS. The GS looks so much like the Avalon it's crazy. Lexus needs to get away from toyota as much as possible even the LS looks like a stretch Camry.
Infiniti has become a bigger threat to BMW than Lexus. I mean the entry level Lexus is a front wheel drive sedan. The IS is a Corolla with a kit on it with a large motor. Thats why it's a woman car.
With the M you're getting performance and luxury not just luxury like the GS.
The IS is a Corolla? Since when did the Corolla become a six cylinder, rear wheel drive car?
TRDFantasy
08-20-07, 05:34 PM
Wow, so 3 cars. I wonder what sales are like? Sadly the only AWD Lexus V-8 is the 600h L.:(
But we should soon see more Lexus V8 AWD machines offered, according to rumours.
EDGE2
08-20-07, 06:03 PM
The GS looks more like a Japanese 5 Series but the 5 has better lease rates and included maintenance, 2 things that are hard to beat when most Lexus and BMW are being sold side by side, both cars feel like drivers cars where as the M and E have a crusier feel, slightly more interior space, I feel like the 5 and GS fit like a glove when I get in them.
Another thing I noticed is several of my neighbors and friends have traded last generation GS300 for the ES350 so the GS might be trailing the M in sales but the customers are probably still in the Lexus family;)
I'd take an M45 any day but would love an LS460:D
GFerg
08-20-07, 06:09 PM
No, E-class V8 has the 4matic.
As well as the Caddy STS V8 and Volvo S80 V8 which only comes in AWD.
Hypnotik
08-20-07, 08:51 PM
The GS looks more like a Japanese 5 Series but the 5 has better lease rates and included maintenance, 2 things that are hard to beat when most Lexus and BMW are being sold side by side, both cars feel like drivers cars where as the M and E have a crusier feel, slightly more interior space, I feel like the 5 and GS fit like a glove when I get in them.
hmm...i think you are a little off in your statement. But if its just your opinion, then more power to ya..