http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Honda/concepts/hybrid_sports/honda_hybrid01_1.jpg
More details on Honda’s new dedicated hybrid

Posted on Wednesday 5 September 2007


Honda is hoping to claw back much of the hybrid car market that it lost to Toyota and its segment leading Prius with an all new dedicated hybrid model of its own. Despite beating Toyota to the hybrid market with the launch of the Insight back in 1999, Honda has since seen most hybrid-buyers head for the Prius because of the image and status it presents. Here was an odd-looking vehicle that people immediately new was eco-friendly, while at the same time offering plenty of interior space and reasonable performance.

Honda hopes to change all that with the launch ifs its new hybrid car that it claims will cost less than the Prius and offer better fuel-consumption figures, according to Newsweek. Designers won’t be making the same mistake of making the car’s styling subtle as they’ve done with previous hybrids. Instead, they’ll base the car on an all-new platform and pickup some of the quirky styling made famous on some of its earlier models.

Engineers at Honda’s California division have been testing the new hybrid at night through the streets of LA and hope to have it ready by 2010. Pictured above is a Honda’s small sports-hybrid concept car displayed at March’s Geneva Motor Show, which the new car may draw some of its styling from.via motorauthority

Honda to Preview Global Hybrid in Paris (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/concept-cars/honda-to-preview-new-global-hybrid-in-paris/)
Although Honda was first to the mass-market with its Insight hybrid, the tiny form-factor made it less than practical for most buyers. Consequently, Toyota’s Prius ran off with the hybrid crown when it came along with seating for five. The Honda Civic hybrid has been making some inroads, but its similar price and slightly lower efficiency have held it back. Now Honda’s going back to the small-hybrid idea with its global hybrid concept.

Expected to go on sale in 2009, the new hybrid will be smaller than the civic, and will cost roughly two-thirds as much. In Europe, that will translate to a price of €16,000 to €20,000 compared to the Civic Hybrid’s starting price of €23,800. Honda hopes to bring sales of hybrids up to a full 10 percent of total car sales by 2010, and this new small hybrid should account for 200,000 units annually. Half of the new car’s production will be sent to the U.S., a quarter to Europe with the rest to be divided amongst the remainder of the globe.

Those sales goals are somewhat optimistic, considering combined sales of Toyota’s Prius and the Civic Hybrid barely topped 42,000 cars in 2007, according to Automotive News. However its lower price, the increasing popularity of hybrids, stricter emissions laws and the likelihood of more congestion charges like London’s recently enacted £25 daily fee, 50,000 units may not be so far from the mark. The new smaller hybrid has a possible goal of sliding under the 100g/km CO2 mark. That figure equates to a combined cycle fuel efficiency of 4.2L/100km, or 56mpg US/67mpg Imperial.

Honda envisions the small global hybrid as part of a three-car range starting with the newest addition, with the Civic Hybrid in the middle and topped with a new hybrid based on the CR-Z concept (pictured). A company spokesman says all three models will be on sale by 2011, and the company expects hybrids to account for 400,000 to 500,000 of the company’s sales each year.

"Although Honda was first to the mass-market with its Insight hybrid, the tiny form-factor made it less than practical for most buyers."

"Despite beating Toyota to the hybrid market with the launch of the Insight back in 1999"

:rolleyes:

I am sure Honda will do a good job this time, their specialty is efficiency and small cars. I have a feeling this car will be fantastic.

I am sure Honda will do a good job this time, their specialty is efficiency and small cars. I have a feeling this car will be fantastic.

The key will be uniqueness and practicality. The Insight had some unique styling but it was too small and too impractical. It was very efficient though. The Prius became popular with the 2nd gen model due to the unique styling, the roomy interior, the practicality and of course the efficiency.

The key will be uniqueness and practicality. The Insight had some unique styling but it was too small and too impractical. It was very efficient though. The Prius became popular with the 2nd gen model due to the unique styling, the roomy interior, the practicality and of course the efficiency.

They had no "Insight";):D

This new Honda is estimated at 56 mpg (as per article on second post)?

Isn't the next gen Prius estimated at 70-80 mpg?

Will there be an MPG war between the two?

This new Honda is estimated at 56 mpg (as per article on second post)?

Isn't the next gen Prius estimated at 70-80 mpg?

Will there be an MPG war between the two?
Yes but the Honda one will be cheaper than the next gen Prius so how much do you want to pay for mpg will be the question. (That and how big of a car and what amenities do you want).

Yes but the Honda one will be cheaper than the next gen Prius so how much do you want to pay for mpg will be the question. (That and how big of a car and what amenities do you want).

mpg wars, unlike horsepower wars, actually produce an beneficial outcome.

as for the cheaper honda...its hard to say if that will steal sales from the prius. its all about image now, and if toyota can keep the image of the prius, then it will continue to sell well. its an icon for being green now. if hybrid buyers bought cars based on price, then they wouldnt by the 24K prius but the 15K corolla or matrix

This thing is supposed to be smaller than the Civic so I think that that would cut down on some cross shopping w/ the Prius. They admit that the size and therefore the lack of practicality of the Insight was a problem so I hope that they do no repeat it here but I can never figure out Honda's logic.

If this thing is smaller than the Prius & gets worse MPG, I do not see it being a big success. The hybrid CR-X, however, is such a different animal that I would think that it would do better ...

Yes but the Honda one will be cheaper than the next gen Prius so how much do you want to pay for mpg will be the question. (That and how big of a car and what amenities do you want).

I'm not so sure this new Honda hybrid will conquest too many Prius sales. If it's smaller than a Civic (which is already smaller than a Prius) then it will certainly have more limited practicality compared to a Prius.

I actually am looking forward to this.....

I'm not so sure this new Honda hybrid will conquest too many Prius sales. If it's smaller than a Civic (which is already smaller than a Prius) then it will certainly have more limited practicality compared to a Prius.
Yep but price will be its major selling point. Honda already has the price advantage becaue IMA is cheaper than HSD.

So say a hybrid for the price of a Fit Sport wouldn't be too bad actually (it's about Cdn$20k right now. Funny thing is that the 2009 Corolla LE is priced at Cdn$19,900).

Can't we just get a cheap good looking hybrid?

2010 Honda Insight to List from Below $18,500 (http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-insight.html)
Despite the popular belief that the Toyota Prius was the first hybrid vehicle sold in the Unites States, the Honda Insight actually holds that title. The Insight was never a sales success, and was eventually discontinued. This time around, Honda is convinced it will have a winner on its hands, and thanks to some new pricing information, we feel the same way.

Priced below the Honda Civic, this Japanese-built hybrid will carry over much of the hatchback styling from the FCX.

In addition to recycling the Insight name, Honda will equip the new hybrid with the same 1.3L Integrated Motor Assist system found in the current-generation Honda Civic Hybrid. However, further development of the system will cut the IMA’s cost by about 50 percent in the new hybrid, according to Next Energy News.

Although the new Insight will be loosely based on the Fit, it will measure in at 3 inches longer and 1 inch wider than the Fit.

One Honda insider told Edmunds the Insight’s fuel economy would be “insane,” with some Japanese sources predicting mileage as high as 71 mpg. Actual mileage will likely be lower when it hits our shores, but should still be impressive.

And if those lofty fuel-economy numbers weren’t enough to cause an instant waiting list for the new hybrid, the next-generation Insight will list from under $18,500 – undercutting the Toyota Prius by thousands of dollars.

The new Insight is expected to debut at the Paris Motor Show, but Honda could also wait until November’s Los Angeles Auto Show. Whatever the case, the new five-door hybrid should hit U.S. Honda dealers early next year.

Honda hopes to build 200,000 units annually, with half of that production to be sold in the United States. Look for the new Honda hybrid to arrive at dealerships here in the States in mid- to late-2009.

I am sure Honda will do a good job this time, their specialty is efficiency and small cars. I have a feeling this car will be fantastic.

+1....................

But but but it's not a full hybrid like the Prius!!!

To me, it doesn't matter how the car delivers the mileage. The end user will only care about the mpg they're going to get. Doesnt' matter if it runs on 3cyl or 10, partial or full hybrid. This car will be a HUGE HUGE HUGE hit if Honda can pull it off for under $18.5k. However, knowing Honda dealers, they'll markup the price like crazy..especially at this time during the oil crisis.

But can it:

Be as powerful as the Prius (which isn't saying too much, but recall that the Insight was weak, very weak and a more powerful Prius is coming)

Get better mileage than the Prius?

Carry as many people/cargo as the Prius?

All at the while being cheaper than the Prius?

According to the article, the new insight will take on the hatchback shape of the fcx. If that's the case, then it's definitely going to have more cargo than the last insight:
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060925FCXConcept/photo/images/07.jpg


Even if the prius is bigger and more powerful, those who crave fuel economy will find that the insight will be powerful enough for highway cruising.

Hybrid competition between Honda and Toyota will be good. The technology will improve, and the consumer will benefit. This will motivate other automakers too.

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - A top Honda Motor Co. executive said Wednesday the company’s new gas-electric hybrid will be priced lower than the Toyota Prius, its prime competitor.

The new five-door car will only be available with a hybrid powertrain. It will be smaller than Honda’s Civic and also will be priced less than a hybrid gas-electric version of the Civic, said Richard Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26178036/


FAIL!

The Insight wasn't that popular.

Well the Civic is pretty big now, so I'm expecting something around the Fit's size? If so, it's still a decent chunk of space, far more than the insight.

Could be a perfect city car though that's more useful than the ridiculously small and not that efficient "Smart".

I think a cheaper, more fuel efficient hybrid than the Prius is the way to go, even if it is smaller than the Prius.

Seems to me that most hybrids are used for daily commuting by one person, and not really as a family vehicle.

I think a cheaper, more fuel efficient hybrid than the Prius is the way to go, even if it is smaller than the Prius.

Seems to me that most hybrids are used for daily commuting by one person, and not really as a family vehicle.

Yeah, but what is the flaw with hybrids? Their batteries consume cargo space. Thus, the Prius is ideal for carrying 4 adults and their luggage. So what good is a more efficient, but smaller Honda hybrid if you have to use a topper to fit all your crap in, thus adding drag. Obviously, Im just speculating but I think you see my point here.

I think a cheaper, more fuel efficient hybrid than the Prius is the way to go, even if it is smaller than the Prius.

Seems to me that most hybrids are used for daily commuting by one person, and not really as a family vehicle.

+1

Can't wait. Too bad only Toyota and Honda are going at it with the hybrid like this. If only we could mix it up with Mazda/Nissan/Ford/GM then it will be better for consumer in the long run.

Could be a perfect city car though that's more useful than the ridiculously small and not that efficient "Smart".

DOn't worry, 90% of them will be clogging up the fast lane not optimizing its fuel efficiency. :thumbdn::D

I will say I take Honda's new hybrids efforts VERY seriously and I am sure they will bring some amazing ones to the market.:thumbup:

Sounds good. If the Camry brought hybrid technology to the masses, this new "Insight" will actually bring them in because of the lower price. $18,500 is what.. $1,500 off the Prius' price? What do HCH's go for in the US?

can't wait for more hybrids.

This new Honda is estimated at 56 mpg (as per article on second post)?

Isn't the next gen Prius estimated at 70-80 mpg?

Will there be an MPG war between the two?
nope, it is supposed to be similar to current Civic Hybrid at 42mpg (or slightly better according to Honda). They are still using mild hybrid setup.

I think Honda repositioned their hybrid on purpose not to clash with Prius anymore. It is smaller than Civic and has mild hybrid with 1.3l engine.

It is like comparing Fit and Matrix. Prius is going to be not only larger but also have 160hp engine, which should be 2 classes above new Insight, and still get some 20-25% better fuel consumption due to new powertrain.

So just like Fit vs Matrix, it comes down to if you need larger car for complete family and do you need larger engine, and are you willing to spend 3k more for it.

Yeah, but what is the flaw with hybrids? Their batteries consume cargo space. Thus, the Prius is ideal for carrying 4 adults and their luggage.

But people buy hybrids for the stop & go city mileage they get, not carrying 4 adults and their luggage. :egads:

So what good is a more efficient, but smaller Honda hybrid if you have to use a topper to fit all your crap in, thus adding drag.

Because the target market is driving ALONE 15 miles to work in CRAPPY TRAFFIC and getting 60mpg (or whatever it ends up getting) is far more important than having the ability to haul a bunch of people or stuff.

Obviously, Im just speculating but I think you see my point here.

Yes, and your point is irrelevant based on the target use.

...Because the target market is driving ALONE 15 miles to work in CRAPPY TRAFFIC and getting 60mpg (or whatever it ends up getting) is far more important than having the ability to haul a bunch of people or stuff.


IMHO, your logic is flawed. The mainstream premise behind the purchase of hybrids is to save on gas, hence money. I would fathom that most folks who are purchasing a hybrid are getting it as their main vehicle, otherwise it wouldn't be smart economically to maintain 2 vehicles. Hence, the Prius would serve better as an everyday car: outstanding gas mileage (better than this Insight) and have the utility to carry out errands as transportation for smaller families.

If you're just a city dweller, driving alone...one should seriously consider biking to work, getting a scooter/small bike, or mass transportation. Makes much more sense in today's economy.

IMHO, your logic is flawed. The mainstream premise behind the purchase of hybrids is to save on gas, hence money. I would fathom that most folks who are purchasing a hybrid are getting it as their main vehicle, otherwise it wouldn't be smart economically to maintain 2 vehicles. Hence, the Prius would serve better as an everyday car: outstanding gas mileage (better than this Insight) and have the utility to carry out errands as transportation for smaller families.

If you're just a city dweller, driving alone...one should seriously consider biking to work, getting a scooter/small bike, or mass transportation. Makes much more sense in today's economy.

Then why are Smarts selling? Or many other small cars for that matter?

I have to somewhat agree with bitkahuna on this one. Most of the people in my state drive solo to work. Carpooling is difficult since finding someone that lives near you and works near you that starts around the same time is hard. There are very few families I know where father and mother share one car and ride to work together. Generally both drive their own car to work. For my family, I wouldn't mind a car like this to drive to work. Most families that have two licensed drivers that I know have at least two car and sometimes 3 or more. We only have 3 members in my family and my son is only 5, yet we had 3 cars. One nice one, one decent 2nd car, and a beater specifically do dive to work and save money. If a cheap hybrid can replace that ugly cheap beater, at least in the long run you'd be saving money and perhaps driving in a nicer car that you can keep longer vs a 10-15 year old junker.

As for cargo space, there should be two classes of hybrid cars. One larger sized car for those that actually use these cars as their single primary vehicle and need the space, and a smaller hybrid car purely for those that need a daily commuter. The price should also reflect each class where the smaller commuters hybrids are a lot cheaper.

Then why are Smarts selling? Or many other small cars for that matter?

The Smart seems to be a specialized niche vehicle that has drawn enthusiasm as a "look at me, I'm different" sort of car since it is not very practical and doesn't have that great of gas mileage for its size. Note that only ~1,700 Smart cars sold for september, down 800 from august and still well below Fit levels even at comparable price points.

And speaking of why other small cars are selling (besides the obvious gas mileage difference), my take is that there is demand in the market for an inexpensive, fuel efficient vehicle that can alternate between a commuter and family hauler. Unfortunately, there are only a few vehicles that fit this description: Fit, Versa, Back and eventually the 4-door Yaris Hatchback. Note, this is for the demographic of 2+ people in the family, not single guys by themselves. In that scenario, "city cars" do make a lot of sense economically, but again I think mass transportation, bikes, and motorcycles are better alternatives.

Don't get me wrong, I think the new Insight is great and will pressure Toyota to proliferate Prius tech downstream for everyone (by this, i mean even teenagers / college graduates). My take was the insight wasn't a specialized vehicle just for commuters (otherwise, why 4 doors?), it was intended as a cheap alternative to the Prius and be a mainstream car a la civic.

But people buy hybrids for the stop & go city mileage they get, not carrying 4 adults and their luggage. :egads:



Because the target market is driving ALONE 15 miles to work in CRAPPY TRAFFIC and getting 60mpg (or whatever it ends up getting) is far more important than having the ability to haul a bunch of people or stuff.



Yes, and your point is irrelevant based on the target use.
you look at hybrids as some special vehicles. Hybrid is just another type of powertrain, nothing more or less. People buy Prius because it is family car that gets good mileage. People buy RX400h/HighlanderHybrid because they are luxurious and fast while saving mileage.

In 2-3 years, Toyota/Lexus will offer >10 hybrid choices in USA alone, and it will trully become common so such misconceptions will not be anymore.

But people buy hybrids for the stop & go city mileage they get, not carrying 4 adults and their luggage. :egads:



Because the target market is driving ALONE 15 miles to work in CRAPPY TRAFFIC and getting 60mpg (or whatever it ends up getting) is far more important than having the ability to haul a bunch of people or stuff.



Yes, and your point is irrelevant based on the target use.

I disagree. People drive their cars and more and more people are driving these days rather than flying. So to argue that in a time of high gas prices, people don't drive their hybrids on long trips is ludacrious.

My brother just took their Prius, with 4 adults on a trip. 50 MPG Prius, or 22 MPG Mariner? The Prius can hold the cargo so its a no brainer.

you look at hybrids as some special vehicles. Hybrid is just another type of powertrain, nothing more or less. People buy Prius because it is family car that gets good mileage. People buy RX400h/HighlanderHybrid because they are luxurious and fast while saving mileage.

In 2-3 years, Toyota/Lexus will offer >10 hybrid choices in USA alone, and it will trully become common so such misconceptions will not be anymore.

And don't forget the whole green factor.

My brother just took their Prius, with 4 adults on a trip. 50 MPG Prius, or 22 MPG Mariner? The Prius can hold the cargo so its a no brainer.

I don't think it gets 50mpg on the highway, does it? And no way with 4 adults and luggage.

Also, must have been a short time away cuz a Prius ain't holding much luggage for 4 people (rollaboard each maybe).

And don't forget the whole green factor.

Somehow in this economy I think a lot of people are going to forget about 'green' in terms of environment, and only focus on any green left in their wallet and bank account.

Anyway, this thred is about HONDA, not Toyota.

Anyway, this thred is about HONDA, not Toyota.

....yes and we were comparing the practicality of the Toyota vs. the Honda. Like we often do.

seems like honda is trying to follow the chinese....can beat them then copy them.....look at the new insight.....what a rip off!!!

I thought the Insight may have been the first hybrid to be sold in America, but the Prius was the first one sold anywhere? Also, the next-generation Prius that will be coming out in a couple of years will be able to plug into AC current, so it is estimated to cost 4 or 5 cents a mile?

As for the notSmart, it's supposed to get 32 or so mpg, which is not as good a base-engine Corolla. Pretty pitiful for a slow phone booth, one that's equipped with Daimler reliability too.

HOLY UGLINESS LOL...honda seems to be making uglier and uglier cars these days, anyone seen the s3000 preview?? (possibly V6 now!)

you look at hybrids as some special vehicles. Hybrid is just another type of powertrain, nothing more or less.

Then why does Lexus put their hybrid models in a separate section on their web site? (I always thought that was strange - why not mention the GS450h in the GS section for example!?)

If hybrid is just a power train, why do unique vehicles have to be built around it?

People buy Prius because it is family car that gets good mileage.

I would bet a big chunk of Prius buyers are single, who want a car that reflects their environmental views and has little to do with it being a 'family car'.

In 2-3 years, Toyota/Lexus will offer >10 hybrid choices in USA alone, and it will trully become common so such misconceptions will not be anymore.

Hybrids today are still rare.