http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200709270430/FREE/70926003

Summary:
332 hp, 367 lb-ft of torque, can drive up to 32mph on electricity alone, rated 21 city, 22 highway using the new 2008 EPA rating standards. That matches the 4-cylinder Camry's city mileage!

GM's Two Mode hybrid also features a cylinder deactivation system.
By RICHARD TRUETT AND LESLIE J. ALLEN | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS


The hybrid versions of the full-sized 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon SUVs will deliver fuel economy gains of 50 percent in the city over the standard, non-hybrid models.

Today (Sept. 27, 2007) at the Texas State Fair, General Motors will announce the EPA fuel economy estimates of 21 mpg city and 22 mpg highway for the two-wheel drive versions of the Tahoe and Yukon hybrids.

Those fuel economy ratings are expected to give GM best-in-class fuel economy for large SUVs. The ratings also rival those of many midsize and large cars. For example, the 2WD Tahoe and Yukon match the four-cylinder Toyota Camry's 21 mpg city rating and beat the V-6 Camry's city rating by 2 mpg.

GM expects to sell 10,000 units per year, combined, of the hybrid SUVs. Prices won't be announced until closer to launch, but are expected to start in the low- to mid-$40,000 range.

The Tahoe and Yukon hybrids are the first vehicles to use the innovative Two Mode hybrid transmission GM developed with DaimlerChrysler and BMW. GM will also use the hybrid system in pickup trucks.

The EPA fuel economy figures are lower than some expected, but that's due to the agency's changing its test procedures to more accurately reflect real-world driving conditions.

The official EPA figures for both vehicles are 21 city/22 highway for 2WD models and 20 mpg city/20 mpg highway for 4WD models.

The Yukon and Tahoe hybrids are equipped with GM's cylinder deactivation system, which cuts off four of the V-8's cylinders when the vehicle reaches highway cruising speeds. They have lightweight body panels and wind-cheating bumper covers.


The 2008 Yukon Hybrid goes on sale in early November.
The two-mode hybrid is a full hybrid, meaning the Tahoe and Yukon can drive entirely on electricity. GM's two-mode hybrids can go up to 32 miles per hour using just electricity. At higher speeds, the two-mode system uses either all gasoline or a combination of fuel and electric propulsion.

GM, DaimlerChrysler and BMW invested $1 billion in the Two Mode system.

"This is something that really changes the game," said Gary White, GM vice president and vehicle line executive for full-sized vehicle development team.

Tahoe and Yukon hybrids are by far the most fuel-efficient large SUVs on the market. By comparison, the two-wheel drive 2008 Nissan Armada and Infiniti QX56 and the two-wheel drive Ford Expedition all get EPA ratings of 12 city and 18 highway. The EPA has not released figures for the 2008 Toyota Sequoia.

The Nissan and Infiniti ratings are for the 5.6-liter V-8 and the Expedition rating is for the 5.4-liter V-8. GM's Two Mode hybrid SUVs have a 6.0-liter V-8 engine.

GM is also planning to use the Two Mode system in its Silverado and Sierra pickups. The Dodge Durango will use the Two Mode system next year, and Mercedes-Benz and BMW will use their versions in the ML 450 and X6 SUVs.


Two Mode Specifications
The 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid and GMC Yukon Hybrid tow like SUVs, but are no more thirsty than a midsized car.

Price: Low-to-mid $40,000 range

City/Highway EPA Ratings: 21/22 (two-wheel drive); 20/20 (four-wheel drive)

Engine: 6.0-liter, V-8

Horsepower: 332 hp

Torque: 367 pounds-feet

Transmission: Two Mode hybrid/four speed automatic

Batteries: 300-volt nickel-metal hydride for hybrid system; 12 volt for accessories

Towing capacity: 6,200 pounds (2WD); 6,000 pounds (4WD)

Curb weight: 5,541 (2WD); 5,787 (4WD)

The beginning of a new era.

This car gets better city mileage than my GS400 does on the highway!

finally.... So.. Toyota... how 'bout a RAV4 Hybrid? ;). Remove the 3rd row, store the batteries there :P

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=...2-80b045f7c663

I dont think this guy knows what he's talking about at all.

1. How is GM gonna have more hybrids on the road than Lexus and Toyota within a year? Yeah right.

2. 0-30 only electric power? Not according to what I read on their website. If you accelerate slowly enough I suppose.

3. 322 hp delievered from 2 electric motors without the help of the gasoline engine? Are you joking? That would depelete the batteries so fast.

Impressive. What's the price premium over a regular Tahoe/Yukon?

That is pretty good. Toyota / Lexus get working here.

Impressive. What's the price premium over a regular Tahoe/Yukon?

Not announced yet, but GM will be losing money on it. However, so did Toyota with the first Priui and look how successful that turned out.

Thats kind of funny that it matches camry's city mileage... why not compare it to hybrid camry?

Or Hybrid Highlander for that matter :-).

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=...2-80b045f7c663
I dont think this guy knows what he's talking about at all.
Looks like you copied and pasted that link from another post on a message board... the link is truncated and broken.



1. How is GM gonna have more hybrids on the road than Lexus and Toyota within a year? Yeah right.
Did he flat out say that? I do know that GM has a dominant hold on the world of commercial hybrids. Pretty much every commercial vehicle with a hybrid system out there is using a GM two mode hybrid setup. Though I still doubt that's enough to explain that statistic.

2. 0-30 only electric power? Not according to what I read on their website. If you accelerate slowly enough I suppose.
The Porsche Cayenne Hybrid has a similar claim to fame, and it is of course assuming you accelerate gently.

3. 322 hp delievered from 2 electric motors without the help of the gasoline engine? Are you joking? That would depelete the batteries so fast.
They do have the help of the gasoline engine, especially if you're demanding anything even close to peak power / high RPM from them.

GM's two-mode system is very solid and has definitely been well proven in much much larger and much more powerful commercial vehicles already. A 322hp 5500 pound Tahoe is chicken scratch compared to what they have been using the 2-mode system in.

The only reason that they haven't introduced it sooner is its cost. It costs GM about 10 grand per Tahoe/Yukon for that 2-mode drivetrain. So yes, much like Toyota did with the Prius... they will be sold at a loss or at least far less of a profit than the regular Tahoes, until they're able to ramp up production and spread out some of the costs with economies of scale.

Thats kind of funny that it matches camry's city mileage... why not compare it to hybrid camry?

Or Hybrid Highlander for that matter :-).

Because both of those vehicles are substantially smaller and lighter hybrids. The very fact that the Tahoe can match the mileage of a 4-cylinder non-hybrid Camry, a car which the average member of society today would probably tell you "gets good gas mileage" (just by assumption/default because most people think 4-cylinder Japanese cars are automatically the most efficient available)... it's just impressive that a mammoth sized Tahoe can match that figure.

Driving this vehicle today.. Black with tan interior. Long day today so I will post pics of it tomorrow. It drives pretty smooth and feels more secure on the road than a Jeep Grand Cherokee. GM did a good job with this truck. perhaps I should slap 24's on it:uh: :p

it's just impressive that a mammoth sized Tahoe can match that figure.

Too bad the highway mileage didn't really increase at all. Thats what would discourage me from purchasing it.

Because both of those vehicles are substantially smaller and lighter hybrids. The very fact that the Tahoe can match the mileage of a 4-cylinder non-hybrid Camry, a car which the average member of society today would probably tell you "gets good gas mileage" (just by assumption/default because most people think 4-cylinder Japanese cars are automatically the most efficient available)... it's just impressive that a mammoth sized Tahoe can match that figure.
HH is 20% lighter (it is very heavy at 4600 lbs) and gets 30% better mpg

:-)

GM's two-mode system is very solid and has definitely been well proven in much much larger and much more powerful commercial vehicles already. A 322hp 5500 pound Tahoe is chicken scratch compared to what they have been using the 2-mode system in.


this is actually first full hybrid from GM, so it can not be "well proven". Their busses (few thousand at most) might have used similar concept but in no way it is same system as they were mild vs full hybrids.

Of course, that doesnt mean it will be bad... it might be the most awesomesty thingy that happened ever.

HH is 20% lighter (it is very heavy at 4600 lbs) and gets 30% better mpg

:-)

Please back up with actual figures, lest someone believes what you say. ;)

The 2008 2WD HH, according to Toyota, gets 26 mpg combined. The GM SUV hybrids get 21 mpg combined.

That means that the 2WD HH gets 24% better mpg.

The 2008 2WD HH is 4300 pounds. That means that the 2WD HH is 22% lighter than the GM SUV hybrids.


Also, let's not forget that the GM SUV hybrids make significantly more power than the HH.

I can't wait for Detroit critics... :rolleyes:

Toyota SUV hybrids: hybrids are not the answer; we have to question the long-term effects of its batteries; you don't get enough good mileage with a hybrid SUV; they're stupid; you get better gas mileage with an Aveo...

GM SUV hybrids: "It's the shiznit!!!"

I'm not impressed at all :thumbdn:. After ALL the hype and hoopla about the two-mode hybrids, and how they would be SO much better than Toyota's hybrids, we get 21/22 EPA numbers?

The new Land Cruiser, which has MORE power than these GM hybrids gets 18 mpg on the highway under the new EPA regulations. The Land Cruiser also has permanent 4WD. Curb weight for the Land Cruiser is roughly the same as the GM hybrids. The EPA numbers for 4WD versions is 20/20. To compare, Land Cruiser EPA numbers are 13/18.

A nice improvement in city mpg, but nothing special on the highway side and overall the two-mode does NOT seem any better than Toyota's system in terms of fuel economy improvement.

Wasn't all the hype about the two-modes related to the idea that they could tow more than traditional hybrids, and get better highway fuel economy? They have good tow ratings for hybrids, but it looks like they fail to match the hype about much improved highway fuel economy.

And comparing these GM hybrid SUVs to a 4 cyl Camry? It's absolutely silly. So what if they slightly beat or match the city mileage of the Camry? The Camry remains MUCH better on the highway. Talk about a biased and narrow-minded comparison. And if you compare these hybrid SUVs to a hybrid Camry? Well then there is even no comparison as the Camry Hybrid's EPA numbers are in a whole other league.

I'm not impressed at all :thumbdn:. After ALL the hype and hoopla about the two-mode hybrids, and how they would be SO much better than Toyota's hybrids, we get 21/22 EPA numbers?

The new Land Cruiser, which has MORE power than these GM hybrids gets 18 mpg on the highway under the new EPA regulations. The Land Cruiser also has permanent 4WD. Curb weight for the Land Cruiser is roughly the same as the GM hybrids. The EPA numbers for 4WD versions is 20/20. To compare, Land Cruiser EPA numbers are 13/18.

This is true, the Land Cruiser's 5.7L does make significantly more power. But you have to remember that GM has been a few paces behind in the game for awhile so at least they're getting something out there and have room for improvement.

I would also like to see the numbers with the old method of testing, which the EPA should post sometime soon on fueleconomy.gov.
The Malibu mild hybrid gets 24 mpg city, 32 hwy, but under the old method of testing it achieves 28 city, 35 hwy, very respectable for a mild hybrid with a 2.4L. In case you couldn't tell, I dont agree with the EPA's new method of testing. Sure people accelerate faster than I do, but do they really run their A/C year round and accelerate to 80 MPH? I certainly don't. In fact most the roads around PA are 55 MPH so Im usually crusing at 62. And mom's RX400h gets 27 hwy, 29 city on average, must different from what the EPA's new estimates are.

End rant

I think Toyota can learn from GM and Honda and start incorperating active fuel managment to their 6 and 8 cylinder hybrids.

Here is a pic of it. Very nice riding truck by Mr. Lutz & GM:thumbup:

http://www.clublexus.com/gallery/data//3462/P1010238.JPG

http://www.clublexus.com/gallery/data//3462/P1010237.JPG

This is true, the Land Cruiser's 5.7L does make significantly more power. But you have to remember that GM has been a few paces behind in the game for awhile so at least they're getting something out there and have room for improvement.

I would also like to see the numbers with the old method of testing, which the EPA should post sometime soon on fueleconomy.gov.
The Malibu mild hybrid gets 24 mpg city, 32 hwy, but under the old method of testing it achieves 28 city, 35 hwy, very respectable for a mild hybrid with a 2.4L. In case you couldn't tell, I dont agree with the EPA's new method of testing. Sure people accelerate faster than I do, but do they really run their A/C year round and accelerate to 80 MPH? I certainly don't. In fact most the roads around PA are 55 MPH so Im usually crusing at 62. And mom's RX400h gets 27 hwy, 29 city on average, must different from what the EPA's new estimates are.

End rant

I think Toyota can learn from GM and Honda and start incorperating active fuel managment to their 6 and 8 cylinder hybrids.

I actually agree with the EPA testing since it is more realistic in terms of being closer to "worst case" fuel economy than it was before.

Sure not everyone drives hard or aggressively, but in places like Cali A/C really IS used most of the time, and a lot of people on highways drive more than 55mph.

The new EPA ratings encompass a wide variety and range of driving styles, which is what makes the numbers more realistic.

This is the same 2-mode hybrid system that MB and BMW will be using in the future. For a 5500+lb giant SUV with a 6200lb towing capacity, I'd say that's damn good.

I hope people realise that going from 14mpg to 21mpg yields a larger fuel savings compared to say going from 30 mpg to 40mpg.

GM needs to throw this system into its lambda units as soon as possible. If this car is any indication, the numbers will be very impressive -

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/09/ml450hybrid_lo.jpg

Surprise!) it's one more vehicle to give credence to Frankfurt's green-theme. The Mercedes-Benz ML 450 Hybrid will be packing a two-mode hybrid drivetrain that was co-recreated by BMW, GM and M.B., producing 340 HP and 354 lb.-ft. of torque, all while delivering over 30 miles-per-gallon.

Sounds pretty good to me for a big 5,700lb SUV. About the same EPA estimates for the LS600h I think.

Toyota is the hybrid leader, and these GM hybrids seem every bit as good as Toyota hybrids from an efficiency standpoint, so that's a pretty good accomplishment in my book.

Also, all hybrids get very little efficiency gains on the freeway. A 10% gain sounds about right. For example, the Camry Hybrid gets 34 mpg on the freeway, while the regular Camry gets 31 mpg on the freeway. That's also about a 10% gain.

Sounds pretty good to me for a big 5,700lb SUV. About the same EPA estimates for the LS600h I think.

To be fair, the LS600h is more powerful and has AWD, although it weighs less than these GM SUVs and has less drag. The GM hybrids with 4WD get 20/20 EPA while the LS600h gets 20/22.

when GM vehicles are involved EPA estimates mean little. I'll wait to see real world results. But I'm glad GM finally is building a hybrid.

I actually agree with the EPA testing since it is more realistic in terms of being closer to "worst case" fuel economy than it was before.


Well I am just confused how I can drive my Subaru Legacy (5MT) doing all city driving and achieve 24 mpg, when the EPA said (in 1999) it should achieve 21 mpg and the new EPA ratings say it should only get 19 mpg. Yeah right. It really doesn't have that much hp. Re-evaluate your testing methods.

Perhaps I am just a really really really good driver ....of AWD vehicles no less.

I dont run my A/C year round!

People, go read up 2008 EPA fuel economy ratings. Most people will BEAT these ratings in real-world performance.

Driving this vehicle today.. Black with tan interior. Long day today so I will post pics of it tomorrow. It drives pretty smooth and feels more secure on the road than a Jeep Grand Cherokee. GM did a good job with this truck. perhaps I should slap 24's on it:uh: :p


I'm also driving a 08 Tahoe LT now, returned the POS 08 Expedition and got this instead.. much nicer.. I put almost 1500 miles in 2 weeks it get pretty good gas millege on highway.. it drive so smooth and quite I actually think the new Tahoe is better than my old LX470..

here is a pic of the Tahoe I'm driving now.. so big and wide its AWSOME:thumbup:http://rbmotoring.com/albums/album156/aao.jpg

People, go read up 2008 EPA fuel economy ratings. Most people will BEAT these ratings in real-world performance.

Exactly my point.

I'm not impressed at all :thumbdn:.
Forgive me if I'm not surprised since this isn't a Toyota product.

After ALL the hype and hoopla about the two-mode hybrids, and how they would be SO much better than Toyota's hybrids, we get 21/22 EPA numbers?
A 50% gain in city economy and a 10% highway economy is pretty damn good in my book. Especially when it's also providing more power than the non hybrid 5.3L V8 that its economy is being compared to. What more were you expecting?

The new Land Cruiser, which has MORE power than these GM hybrids gets 18 mpg on the highway under the new EPA regulations. The Land Cruiser also has permanent 4WD. Curb weight for the Land Cruiser is roughly the same as the GM hybrids. The EPA numbers for 4WD versions is 20/20. To compare, Land Cruiser EPA numbers are 13/18.
So a 54% and 11% mileage improvement isn't enough? 54% better mileage means that for every 100 miles the LC drives in the city, the Tahoe will go 54 more miles.
BTW that figure is a Toyota estimate, not an EPA certification.

A nice improvement in city mpg, but nothing special on the highway side and overall the two-mode does NOT seem any better than Toyota's system in terms of fuel economy improvement.
Honestly I don't recall hearing that it was supposed to be better than Toyota's system. Where were you hearing this?
Hybrid vehicles pretty much never see much of a benefit on the highway because highway driving doesn't lose energy to braking, it loses energy to wind resistance, which can't be recaptured like the heat from brakes can.


And comparing these GM hybrid SUVs to a 4 cyl Camry? It's absolutely silly. So what if they slightly beat or match the city mileage of the Camry? The Camry remains MUCH better on the highway. Talk about a biased and narrow-minded comparison. And if you compare these hybrid SUVs to a hybrid Camry? Well then there is even no comparison as the Camry Hybrid's EPA numbers are in a whole other league.
Yeah it's silly but it's still an interesting comparison. That Camry is far lighter, has a far smaller and weaker motor, and in general I bet the average person would regard the Camry as a very green vehicle. Tell the average person that the Tahoe will get just as good of mileage around the city as a 4-cylinder Camry and I bet they'd be surprised and impressed. Of course the highway isn't going to match. That's where hybrid benefits leave and wind resistance becomes the primary factor.

You of all people should probably not be talking about bias...

We'll wait until Toyota has a hybrid version of the currently sorely outdated Sequoia (The Tahoe's closest competitor) before we can make any "non-silly" comparisons. Until then, let the silliness continue.;)

A 50% gain in city economy and a 10% highway economy is pretty damn good in my book. Especially when it's also providing more power than the non hybrid 5.3L V8 that its economy is being compared to. What more were you expecting?

That's exactly what I was expecting. A lot of people on other sites and communities, including GM insiders, talked endlessly about how the Two-Mode was better than Toyota's system. The mileage figures are exactly what I expected, and this shows the system is no better than Toyota's in terms of fuel economy improvements. I expected this to fail to live up to the hype. There was also a lot of hype on these other boards that the Two-Mode would see bigger increases in highway fuel economy compared to other hybrids.

So a 54% and 11% mileage improvement isn't enough? 54% better mileage means that for every 100 miles the LC drives in the city, the Tahoe will go 54 more miles.
BTW that figure is a Toyota estimate, not an EPA certification.

Read the disclaimer on Toyota.com posted right beside the LC's mileage. It mentions EPA-estimated mileage.

Honestly I don't recall hearing that it was supposed to be better than Toyota's system. Where were you hearing this?
Hybrid vehicles pretty much never see much of a benefit on the highway because highway driving doesn't lose energy to braking, it loses energy to wind resistance, which can't be recaptured like the heat from brakes can.

On many different automotive forums and communities, that was the hype around the Two-Mode: that it was going to be better than Toyota's Synergy Drive.

This is the first I've heard that the GM hybrids were supposed to be better than Toyota hybrids. But then again, I don't hang around GM boards.

Anyways, it's hard to compare directly to Toyota hybrids, seeing as how Toyota does not make a full-size SUV hybrid.

I'd be very interested in mpg figures for a hybrid Sequoia, if they ever make one.

I don't think Toyota's HSD can be used on large SUVs/Trucks. That's why they're pursuing the diesel route in that area.

I am very impressed and I am happy to see ANY form of hybrid by ANYONE. SUVs are huge profit makers for the American companies and this is a good way to continue selling them. People LOVE their SUVs, this is a good move.

I read an article about the Audi Q7 coming in both diesel and gasoline hybrid. The article pondered which has better torque delievery.

Just thought that was amusing.

From my experience with these behemoths, the Yukon is a better drive, more solid in construction, quieter, damn near better truck than a Toyota Sequoia. GM knows how to build trucks!

i like how CR's Silverado 5.3L got better mileage than the Tundra's 5.7L, oh wait it didn't.

Let's wait and see if Toyota will use their hybrid system on large trucks and SUVs. Also, why is everyone comparing the new GM Yukon and Tahoe to the old Sequoia? The all-new Sequoia is supposed to be unveiled at the LA autoshow, and then we'll see how GM's SUVs compare to it.

i like how CR's Silverado 5.3L got better mileage than the Tundra's 5.7L, oh wait it didn't.

Have we really gotten down to such trivial isolated statistics just for the sake of argument?:egads:

Generally speaking I'd say the EPA's testing methods, especially for 2008, is far more scientific in method and consistency/comparability of results than "Mileage as tested" which just reports the mileage CR got after they ran the truck through various road and track tests with various drivers under varying conditions.

GM vehicles consistently fail to live up to their EPA estimates in every comparision test. Moreso than any other manufacture.

EPA estimates vs observed mpg

edmunds:
Tundra
14/18 14.4
Silverado
15/19 12.7

Truck Trend:
Tundra
14/18 8.55
Silverado
15/19 7.20

Truck Trend 2:
Tundra
14/18 14.9
Silverado
16/20 13.9

C&D:
Tundra
14/18 13
Silverado
15/19 12

Popular Mechanics:
Tundra
14/18 15.34
Silverado
15/19 15.4

and CR which has the Tundra 5.7L getting better fuel economy than the Silverado's 5.3L

One thing is clear: the 5.7L is a very efficient engine for it's displacement and power. I predict that for 2008 the regular GM trucks and SUVs will see bigger EPA drops than Toyota's 2008 SUVs and trucks will (those equipped with the 5.7L V8). The Land Cruiser EPA estimates actually increased from 2007 to 2008, thanks to the improved efficiency of the 5.7L and the 6 speed auto.

I predict the 2008 Sequoia will see a slight drop in EPA ratings or it might stay the same (current ratings for 2007 are 15/18). Given that the '08 Sequoia is rumoured to have IRS, instead of a solid axle the 08 model might beat the 2007 model's EPA ratings. Tundra 4x4 for 2008 should drop to 13/18 as well, from 14/18 based on 2007 testing.

One thing is clear: the 5.7L is a very efficient engine for it's displacement and power. I predict that for 2008 the regular GM trucks and SUVs will see bigger EPA drops than Toyota's 2008 SUVs and trucks will (those equipped with the 5.7L V8). The Land Cruiser EPA estimates actually increased from 2007 to 2008, thanks to the improved efficiency of the 5.7L and the 6 speed auto.

I predict the 2008 Sequoia will see a slight drop in EPA ratings or it might stay the same (current ratings for 2007 are 15/18). Given that the '08 Sequoia is rumoured to have IRS, instead of a solid axle the 08 model might beat the 2007 model's EPA ratings. Tundra 4x4 for 2008 should drop to 13/18 as well, from 14/18 based on 2007 testing.

One thing is also clear - this thread isn't about Toyota engines and vehicles. :egads:

Driving this vehicle today.. .... Very nice riding truck by Mr. Lutz & GM:thumbup:

You bought/leased one of these? If so, congrats! You have now, what, 5 vehicles? :D

I'm also driving a 08 Tahoe LT now, returned the POS 08 Expedition and got this instead.. much nicer..

Dang, you go through vehicles like I do peanut butter sandwiches... you bought an 08 Expedition and traded it already? Must have taken a bath. :eek2: Glad you like the Tahoe though. :thumbup: Someone I know has one and loves it.

Some of you guys sound a bit like Toyota/Lexus fanboys.

The available evidence is that Lexus finds it a challenge for its hybrid technology to work well with heavy vehicles. Its heaviest attempt to date has been the LS. The LS460L weighs in at 4332 lb, whereas the Yukon (RWD, 5.3 liter conventional ICE) is 5273 lb. Yet GMC has been able to achieve a much better mpg gain with the heavier Yukon than Lexus has with the lighter LS. Going from a RWD LS460L to the AWD LS600hL gets you a 11% combined 2008 EPA mpg increase. With the Yukon, again going from RWD ICE to AWD hybrid, you get a 25% increase.

Tell me that isn't impressive.

Then look at it another way. Combined MPG of the RWD Yukon hybrid (21.5) slightly EXCEEDS that of the AWD LS600hL (21), despite the RWD Yukon weighing in at 10% more than the LS600, and having all the aerodynamics of an SUV. (Comparing AWD to AWD, the Yukon is at 20 vs 21mpg for the LS600, but the vehicle weighs 15% more than the LS600, and still suffers from the aerodynamics of an SUV.)

Again, tell me that isn't impressive. Tell me how HSD on a heavy vehicle is somehow "better" than or even "as good as" what GMC has done.

Combine that with the fact that GM's full size SUV hybrids are here NOW.

When are we going to see a Lexus or Toyota 8-passenger hybrid? Or even 6 or 7 passenger hybrid? 2010? 2011? And when it FINALLY appears, what sort of mpg gain can Lexus achieve with 5000 lb and up vehicles?

I'm no GM fanboy myself, BTW. We are a 2-Lexus family, LX and RX. I'm looking to replace them in 2008 with one 6-8 passenger vehicle and one large sedan, and frankly I'm disappointed with what Lexus has to offer for 2008 in the high-mpg department. NO hybrid 6-8 passenger options. NO diesel in that size category in the USA. A LS600hL that offers only an 11% mpg improvement, a tiny trunk for its class, and a big price premium. NO AWD option on the conventional LS460.

So what you're saying is you consider GM's system to be BETTER than Toyota's system?

The LS600hL is a performance hybrid first of all, and it has more HP and torque than the GM hybrid SUVs. It's much faster than those GM SUVs.

Also, when moving from a regular Tahoe/Yukon to the hybrid versions, curb weight increases about 250lbs or roughly 6-7%. Moving from an LS460L to an LS600hL is a curb weight increase of roughly 800lbs, or a 16% increase. Yet the LS600hl still manages to get better fuel economy than the LS460L, despite the addition of AWD *and* an 800lb curb weight increase. I consider that just as impressive as what the GM system achieves.

I would have liked to see the fuel economy increase from the GM system if curb weight had gone up by 800lbs.

GM has not yet released 2008 EPA ratings for the regular ICE Yukon and Tahoe models, so we can't yet compare them to their hybrid siblings in terms of EPA increases.

6 or 7 passenger hybrid? Have you not heard of the Highlander Hybrid? Have some patience; the next-gen Sienna is supposed to have a hybrid option, and the next-gen RX should have one as well.

Look guys and gals, one more smart comment about Lexus/Toyota fanboy etc, your post will be deleted. This IS a Lexus website.

Stick to the TOPIC at hand.

There are tons of POSITIVE posts in here supporting this vehicle. Please be fair and observe those as well and not just the ones you disagree with.
Thanks :)

So what you're saying is you consider GM's system to be BETTER than Toyota's system?

The LS600hL is a performance hybrid first of all, and it has more HP and torque than the GM hybrid SUVs. It's much faster than those GM SUVs.


Comparing an SUV with a luxury sedan is not really relevant, syswei is saying it's an impressive achievement on GM's part which Toyota/Lexus has yet to match since they offer no hybrid large SUVs. (No, Highlander doesn't count).

I think that's a very accurate assessment.

Also, when moving from a regular Tahoe/Yukon to the hybrid versions, curb weight increases about 250lbs or roughly 6-7%. Moving from an LS460L to an LS600hL is a curb weight increase of roughly 800lbs, or a 16% increase. Yet the LS600hl still manages to get better fuel economy than the LS460L, despite the addition of AWD *and* an 800lb curb weight increase. I consider that just as impressive as what the GM system achieves.

Yes, but why are we comparing the LS with a GM huge SUV again!? :uh:

I would have liked to see the fuel economy increase from the GM system if curb weight had gone up by 800lbs.

At least it has room to hold 800lbs of stuff, unlike the LS600 trunk which is smaller than a Civic's. :p

Have some patience; the next-gen Sienna is supposed to have a hybrid option, and the next-gen RX should have one as well.

I'm sure they'll be nice, but they're not competitors to a Yukon/Tahoe either.

LS600h: 438 hp
Yukon hybrid: 300 hp

hmmm....



The design integrates proven automatic transmission technology with a patented hybrid-electric drive system to deliver the world's first two-mode full hybrid.
1. Who uses a 4 speed auto anymore?
2. Why do they keep reffering to this vehicle as the first two mode hybrid and the first two mode hybrid SUV. Toyota, Lexus, Ford already did this.

The LS600hL is a performance hybrid first of all, and it has more HP and torque than the GM hybrid SUVs. It's much faster than those GM SUVs.

LS600h: 438 hp
Yukon hybrid: 300 hp

Fair enough. I would love to see Lexus come out with a full-size hybrid SUV, because that's what I'd buy to replace my LX. But it doesn't seem to be a near-term event. Among other things, Toyota joining the Big 3 U.S. car companies in lobbying against stricter CAFE standards doesn't suggest particularly timely or fuel efficient Toyota/Lexus SUVs and pickups in the near future.

Also, when moving from a regular Tahoe/Yukon to the hybrid versions, curb weight increases about 250lbs or roughly 6-7%. Moving from an LS460L to an LS600hL is a curb weight increase of roughly 800lbs, or a 16% increase.

Is the 250lb vs 800lb comparison an example of Toyota's engineering prowess? Or GM's?

Yes, Toyota has yet to match GM with full size hybrid SUVs. Similarly, GM has yet to match Toyota with a midsize car that gets Prius-level fuel economy or offering hybrid crossovers or hybrid luxury cars.

The LS600hL is a performance hybrid first of all, and it has more HP and torque than the GM hybrid SUVs. It's much faster than those GM SUVs.

I want to revisit this comment. Yes, it is literally true. But an SUV is not a sedan, as has been pointed out. The interesting question, since you bring up the performance angle, is this: What does Lexus HSD do for the LS, as regards economy AND performance, vs what does GM's system do for the Yukon?

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better
curb weight: 17% worse
HP: 15% better
torque: 5% better
0-60: 2% worse
trunk space: 35% less

Yukon Hybrid AWD vs Yukon (5.3 liter RWD):
MPG: 25% better
curb weight: 10% worse
HP: 4% better
torque: 8% better
0-60: unknown, but curb weight gain isn't much more than hp/torque gain
cargo space: unchanged

With the LS, you actually lose a bit of performance (which I'll define as 0-60 time) and get only a 11% mpg gain. With the Yukon, my guess is you won't lose much if any performance, but get a 25% mpg gain. So:

what you're saying is you consider GM's system to be BETTER than Toyota's system?.

As implemented on Lexus' heaviest hybrid vs GM's heaviest hybrid, yes that is what I'm suggesting.

Tahoe hybrid
21/22 2wd
20/20 4wd
6.0L V8
332hp
367lb-ft
5541lbs
5787lbs


non-hybrid Tahoe
14/20 2wd
14/19 4wd
5.3L V8 (cast-iron block)
320hp
340lbft
weight (est)
5265 2wd
5529 4wd

true but Toyota/Lexus is more interested in segment firsts apparently. I mean, it already has the world's first luxury SUV hybrid and 7-passenger SUV hybrid (Ford beat Toyota to the first SUV with the Escape).

World's first luxury performance hybrid and world's first luxury hybrid gets more attention than another SUV hybrid. Also, buyers are usually willing to pay a greater premium for the system to help Toyota recoup the cost and pass the savings onto the other units.

This is GM's first full hybrid and it's a pretty good one (the same system is used in a few of our test busses in my city. I've ridden in it and it's pretty cool). However, after GM criticising the Prius for being too complicated and showing how "simple" a Malibu is, they come out with a two-mode system that's more complicated than the HSD system.. good job.

FOUR clutches in an artificial 4-speed auto. Riiight. Compare that to Toyota's simpler planetary gear set that's the size of a pop can

LS600h: 438 hp
Yukon hybrid: 300 hp

hmmm....




1. Who uses a 4 speed auto anymore?
2. Why do they keep reffering to this vehicle as the first two mode hybrid and the first two mode hybrid SUV. Toyota, Lexus, Ford already did this.

God, it's NOT a 4-speed auto. Get your facts right.

You bought/leased one of these? If so, congrats! You have now, what, 5 vehicles? :D



Dang, you go through vehicles like I do peanut butter sandwiches... you bought an 08 Expedition and traded it already? Must have taken a bath. :eek2: Glad you like the Tahoe though. :thumbup: Someone I know has one and loves it.


No i don't own any of the trucks I can't afford them.. i jsut spend few bucks and rent them from Enterprise... in the past few months I rented 2 07 suburbans.. 2 08 tahoes, 07 and 08 expeditions, 07 Amada and couple other SUV's and I rent them pretty frequently so I'm pretty familiar with them..So far I like the new Suburban and Tahoe the best:thumbup:

As implemented on Lexus' heaviest hybrid vs GM's heaviest hybrid, yes that is what I'm suggesting.

Your points are moot - Lexus hybrids are there to increase performance, not MPG.

And Toyota has heavier hybrid - 4,600 lbs Highlander Hybrid.

It will be interesting to see what is the real life performance of GM hybrids...

Your points are moot - Lexus hybrids are there to increase performance, not MPG.

To me that doesn't make much sense since most performance reports on the LS600h have shown it doesn't accelerate any more quickly than the LS460, and the GS450h doesn't out-perform the GS430 by very much, and probably won't outperform that GS460 at all.

I think the "F" line is meant to be about performance. The "h" line seems like it is meant to improve fuel economy without hurting performance and possibly helping it a bit, even. At least that's the net effect I've observed so far.

p.s. did you check improvements on HH vs Highlander?

HH gets better BOTH city and highway mileage. It also improves city mileage by 63% (vs 42% improvement for Chevy).

It seems GM still has a way to go, since HH gets 50% better improvement in city mileage than Yukon and 9.2% increase in highway mpg that Yukon doesnt get at all.

To me that doesn't make much sense since most performance reports on the LS600h have shown it doesn't accelerate any more quickly than the LS460, and the GS450h doesn't out-perform the GS430 by very much, and probably won't outperform that GS460 at all.

I think the "F" line is meant to be about performance. The "h" line seems like it is meant to improve fuel economy without hurting performance and possibly helping it a bit, even. At least that's the net effect I've observed so far.
you think it makes more sense to compare Yukon to Luxury sedan than to large SUV?

That makes a lot of sense.

GS450h is a lot faster car than GS430. 0-60 is only but one factor of performance. In gear acceleration of GS450h is considerably better than in GS430. Same should be true for LS460 vs LS600h.

So at the end:

Toyota HSD in SUV:
63% better city MPG
9.2% better highway MPG

GM hybrid SUV:
42% better city MPG
same or worse (Tahoe gets 5% worse consumption on highway).


oops? BUT it gets better city mpg than CAMRY!

you think it makes more sense to compare Yukon to Luxury sedan than to large SUV?

That makes a lot of sense.

I only wish that we had a large SUV from Lexus to compare the Yukon to. We don't. So the comparison is of Lexus' heaviest hybrid to GM's heaviest hybrid.

When you look at the performance and mpg "improvements" of the LS when going from ICE to hybrid, and then look at the same for the Yukon, it is hard not to be disappointed with what Lexus has done.

Just why is it that we don't have a large SUV hybrid from Lexus yet, nor even a rumor of one appearing in the next year or two?

I only wish that we had a large SUV from Lexus to compare the Yukon to. We don't. So the comparison is of Lexus' heaviest hybrid to GM's heaviest hybrid.

When you look at the performance and mpg "improvements" of the LS when going from ICE to hybrid, and then look at the same for the Yukon, it is hard not to be disappointed with what Lexus has done.

Just why is it that we don't have a large SUV hybrid from Lexus yet, nor even a rumor of one appearing in the next year or two?
you are getting really desparate here dude...

Obviously you dont want to compare Toyota SUV to Chevy SUV, but rather to luxury sedan.

It is obvious which one benefits more - Toyota HSD. System running in over million vehicles on the road today.

sucks to dislike Toyota these days, I know... sorry.

So at the end:

Toyota HSD in SUV:
63% better city MPG
9.2% better highway MPG

GM hybrid SUV:
42% better city MPG
same or worse (Tahoe gets 5% worse consumption on highway).



:rolleyes: Sigh. Again, please check facts before stating them.

The 2008 Tahoe 2WD gets 14/20. The 2008 Tahoe 2WD Hybrid gets 21/22.

That's a 50% improvement in city mileage and a 10% improvement in highway mileage.

sucks to dislike Toyota these days, I know... sorry.

In fact mine is a two Lexus family.

If you take off the rose-colored glasses and look at the available evidence, you have to wonder if HSD might work better in light to medium vehicles (up to RX and GS) than in heavy vehicles (LS). Perhaps that's why there isn't a LX hybrid now, or on the immediate horizon?

:rolleyes: Sigh. Again, please check facts before stating them.

The 2008 Tahoe 2WD gets 14/20. The 2008 Tahoe 2WD Hybrid gets 21/22.

That's a 50% improvement in city mileage and a 10% improvement in highway mileage.
we are comparing it to AWD version, since HH is AWD... check again and compare... thanks.

In fact mine is a two Lexus family.

If you take off the rose-colored glasses and look at the available evidence, you have to wonder if HSD might work better in light to medium vehicles (up to RX and GS) than in heavy vehicles (LS). Perhaps that's why there isn't a LX hybrid now, or on the immediate horizon?
HH is heavier vehicle than LS.

What are you talking about?

We have HH - SUV that is 10-15% smaller than Tahoe, but otherwise same type of car.

Why are you comparing it to LS? Makes no sense. Are you comparing Prius to LS? Since it is much better comparisment.

:rolleyes: Sigh. Again, please check facts before stating them.

The 2008 Tahoe 2WD gets 14/20. The 2008 Tahoe 2WD Hybrid gets 21/22.

That's a 50% improvement in city mileage and a 10% improvement in highway mileage.
actually, 2WD 5.3 V8 gets 22 highway mpg.... you took older 4.8 (probably with 4AT?) to compare the two :-).

5.3 gets better mpg than 4.8

:-).

HH is heavier vehicle than LS.


As carguy101 put it "Sigh. Again, please check facts before stating them."

LS460L 4332 lb
Highlander 2WD 3979 lb

For the third time (at least) in this thread: I'm comparing what Lexus has done with the LS because it is their heaviest hybrid to date. Frankly I'm disappointed with the results. If you had any objectivity in the matter maybe you would be disappointed, too.

actually, 2WD 5.3 V8 gets 22 highway mpg.... you took older 4.8 (probably with 4AT?) to compare the two :-).

5.3 gets better mpg than 4.8

:-).

Um... no.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm


2008 Tahoe 2WD, 5.3L: 14/20
2008 Tahoe 2WD, 4.8L: 14/19

you think it makes more sense to compare Yukon to Luxury sedan than to large SUV?
No, I didn't bring up the Yukon/Tahoe to LS600h comparison in the first place. I was simply replying to your comment that Lexus' hybrids are about performance and not fuel economy. My reply simply said I think the -F division of Lexus is about performance, and the hybrids are about economy without loss of performance.

In fact what I said is wait until Toyota comes out with a Sequoia Hybrid before any form of real/direct comparison can be made.

actually, 2WD 5.3 V8 gets 22 highway mpg.... you took older 4.8 (probably with 4AT?) to compare the two :-).

:-).

You're quoting 2007 EPA ratings instead of 2008. I don't know if that's on purpose because it suits your argument, or if it's just an over site on your part.

As carguy101 put it "Sigh. Again, please check facts before stating them."

LS460L 4332 lb
Highlander 2WD 3979 lb


Those are the weights for the non-hybrid variants of each model.

Those are the weights for the non-hybrid variants of each model.

And that's exactly what's relevant here. If Lexus adds 700 lb to the LS to make it a hybrid, that's their problem.

When you look at the MPG and performance improvements (or lack thereof) that Lexus has come up with when starting out with their heaviest (to date) ICE vehicle to receive a hybrid makeover, I'll say again that the results are disappointing to me and should be disappointing to any objective observer.

repeating:

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better
curb weight: 17% worse
0-60: 2% worse
trunk space: 35% less

I do hope they do better with heavy vehicles in the future. It will be too late for my current round of vehicle purchases, as I plan to replace my LX and RX in calendar 2008 (with one 6-8 passenger luxury vehicle, and one large luxury sedan). But I'll keep hoping for the following round.

And that's exactly what's relevant here. If Lexus adds 700 lb to the LS to make it a hybrid, that's their problem.That extra weight of the LS hybrid includes the addition of AWD, APSSS(at least 90 lb. IIRC), & miscellaneous little extra's also ;)

That extra weight of the LS hybrid includes the addition of AWD, APSSS(at least 90 lb. IIRC), & miscellaneous little extra's also ;)

Fair enough, but GM didn't have to add that much weight to go from ICE 2WD to hybrid 4WD.

Yes but 600hL added not only the additional weight of AWD, but the hybrid drivetrain - as an alternative to going V12 (that adds weight compared to V8 too, 760Li added 360 lb. going from V8 to V12 compared to 750 Li), plus the LS600hL also added the Active Power Stabilizer Suspension System that the 460L does not have(at least 90 lb.IIRC) to improve handling , plus a few other minor extras, that can add more weight, so 700 lb. total is reasonable IMO.

Fair enough, but GM didn't have to add that much weight to go from ICE 2WD to hybrid 4WD.
ehm, did you check how much weight did the HH add to Highlander?

:-).

And that's exactly what's relevant here. If Lexus adds 700 lb to the LS to make it a hybrid, that's their problem.

When you look at the MPG and performance improvements (or lack thereof) that Lexus has come up with when starting out with their heaviest (to date) ICE vehicle to receive a hybrid makeover, I'll say again that the results are disappointing to me and should be disappointing to any objective observer.

repeating:

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better
curb weight: 17% worse
0-60: 2% worse
trunk space: 35% less

I do hope they do better with heavy vehicles in the future. It will be too late for my current round of vehicle purchases, as I plan to replace my LX and RX in calendar 2008 (with one 6-8 passenger luxury vehicle, and one large luxury sedan). But I'll keep hoping for the following round.
eh.... oh well.

What can we do? Yukon is a lot better than LS600h, and HH is a lot better than both.

Such is life.

And that's exactly what's relevant here. If Lexus adds 700 lb to the LS to make it a hybrid, that's their problem.

When you look at the MPG and performance improvements (or lack thereof) that Lexus has come up with when starting out with their heaviest (to date) ICE vehicle to receive a hybrid makeover, I'll say again that the results are disappointing to me and should be disappointing to any objective observer.

repeating:

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better
curb weight: 17% worse
0-60: 2% worse
trunk space: 35% less

I do hope they do better with heavy vehicles in the future. It will be too late for my current round of vehicle purchases, as I plan to replace my LX and RX in calendar 2008 (with one 6-8 passenger luxury vehicle, and one large luxury sedan). But I'll keep hoping for the following round.

LS600h is faster in the quarter mile

LS600h is faster in the quarter mile
& in 50-70 mph (actually faster than the 760Li & A8 W12 according to Sports Car International mag.), & 80-120 too . . .

LS600h is faster in the quarter mile

& in 50-70 mph (actually faster than the 760Li & A8 W12 according to Sports Car International mag.), & 80-120 too . . .

Put all this together, 0-60, 1/4-mile, 50-70, etc., and to me at least the LS600hL offers about the same overall performance as the LS460L. So to me it isn't exactly a "performance hybrid" as compared to its progenitor. And it isn't much of an "efficiency hybrid" because the mpg improvement is only 11%. To me, it is a "disappointing hybrid" as compared to other Toyota/Lexus efforts, and now GM's Yukon/Tahoe. Maybe some of you feel differently, that the LS600hL is just great. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Maybe you guys also feel its just great that, more than a decade after the original Prius, Lexus doesn't have a full-size hybrid SUV available now or in the near future. I don't. I'm disappointed.

I think the new GM SUV hybrids are great.
THe LS 600h L is not the answer to all things and has drawbacks. That being said;

It should NOT be included, it is literally the most technologically advanced car in the world. The Tahoe (twins) are literally Silverado's with a roof in the back.

Not to mention you can buy 2 maybe 3 Tahoes for the price of a LS 600.

Put all this together, 0-60, 1/4-mile, 50-70, etc., and to me at least the LS600hL offers about the same overall performance as the LS460L. So to me it isn't exactly a "performance hybrid" as compared to its progenitor.

Oh, but wait. Does the LS460 offer AWD? No. And thats what makes the LS600h a different bird than the 460.

Oh, but wait. Does the LS460 offer AWD? No. And thats what makes the LS600h a different bird than the 460.

Just as a 4WD hybrid Yukon is a different bird from a 2WD ICE Yukon. Which ones gets the greater mpg improvement, the LS or the Yukon, when going from ICE to hybrid and from 2WD to 4WD?

from post #53:

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better

Yukon Hybrid AWD vs Yukon (5.3 liter RWD):
MPG: 25% better

Put all this together, 0-60, 1/4-mile, 50-70, etc., and to me at least the LS600hL offers about the same overall performance as the LS460L. So to me it isn't exactly a "performance hybrid" as compared to its progenitor.
I think it's just you then, 600hL & 460L about the same 0-60 (5.5 vs. 5.4 "officially"), but have much better instant torque - beats 460L in highway passing, high end speed & 1/4 mile, & that's about the same overall performance ? :uh: Plus you are neglecting AWD again, all AWD cars are heavier & slower than their RWD versions, the appropiate comparison would be LS600hL against an AWD version of the 460L, NOT the RWD version in production now.
And it isn't much of an "efficiency hybrid" because the mpg improvement is only 11%. To me, it is a "disappointing hybrid" as compared to other Toyota/Lexus efforts, and now GM's Yukon/Tahoe. Maybe some of you feel differently, that the LS600hL is just great. I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. Again, you are just trying to isolate the mpg criteria in judging the 600hL as if everything else are equal(they are NOT) in comparison to the SUV, that doesn't make any sense at all , your argument doesn't work.

all AWD cars are heavier & slower than their RWD versions, the appropiate comparison would be LS600hL against an AWD version of the 460L, NOT the RWD version in production now.

Not in the case of the RX400h. No rear drive shaft, like the LS has. Saves weight and a rear electric motor boosts 0-60 time by about .4 second.


The point is that if the LS460 were an AWD vehicle, the numbers would be in favor of the LS600h.

I agree, you are being very narrow-minded when judging the LS600hL vs an LS460L and vs the Yukon syswei.

You may not like the LS600hL, and that's fine. But the fact is that the LS600hl handles better, has faster in-gear acceleration, 1/4 mile, and passing times than compared to the LS460L, AND it STILL manages to get better fuel economy than the RWD LS460L.

Is the Yukon AWD hybrid faster than a 5.3L RWD Yukon? Does it handle better? We don't know.

Just as a 4WD hybrid Yukon is a different bird from a 2WD ICE Yukon. Which ones gets the greater mpg improvement, the LS or the Yukon, when going from ICE to hybrid and from 2WD to 4WD?

from post #53:

LS600hL vs LS460L:
MPG: 11% better

Yukon Hybrid AWD vs Yukon (5.3 liter RWD):
MPG: 25% better
you are just too funny. Seriously.

HH gets better improvement than Yukon's.
HH HSD system is lighter than Yukon's.
HH is same type of car as Yukon.
HH has no packaging issues as Yukon.

:-)

Uncle! You guys win.

The LS600hL is a truly amazing demonstration of the capabilities of hybrid technology. Such a huge performance gain coupled with a huge mpg improvement.

Whereas what GM has done is not impressive at all.

I have seen the light! Now all I have to do is wait for a hybrid LX, no matter how many years it takes.

HH is same type of car as Yukon.
HH has no packaging issues as Yukon.

Packaging issues? What are you referring to?

The Highlander is not at all the same type of vehicle as the Yukon. The Yukon and Sequoia are far more direct competitors.

HH is same type of car as Yukon.

What are each of their towing capacities again? Someone remind me.

What are each of their towing capacities again? Someone remind me.
7700lbs like the Caddy Escalade. You can tow a trailor and have 9 passengers in the Tahoe all at once.

Whereas what GM has done is not impressive at all.


, no one said that or anything close to that.

Oh grow up, no one said that or anything close to that.

Yes they did.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2946320&postcount=17

7700lbs like the Caddy Escalade. You can tow a trailor and have 9 passengers in the Tahoe all at once.

Thanks. And gee, the Highlander Hybrid has a towing capacity of a whopping 3500lbs. How not similar. :D

I really think these things are going to fly off GM shelves, I hope they build enough to meet demand.

GM has publically stated their 2-mode system comes at a $10k premium, even if it manages to outperform Toyota's 2nd gen hybrid system GM unlike Toyota is losing considerable money. Don't be suprised if GM only builds them in very limited numbers.

GM has publically stated their 2-mode system comes at a $10k premium, even if it manages to outperform Toyota's 2nd gen hybrid system GM unlike Toyota is losing considerable money. Don't be suprised if GM only builds them in very limited numbers.

I think its more like they've claimed it COSTS them 10k per unit over a regular hybrid, but the cost to the consumer of a Tahoe/Yukon hybrid (I'm not sure how well-optioned) will be no more than a fully loaded ICE Tahoe/Yukon. They are probably including the amortization of development/tooling costs when they come up with the 10k number and the claim that they'll lose money on every unit. I doubt that the variable cost difference is quite as high as 10k.

The Prius wasn't a big moneymaker early in its lifecycle. From GM's standpoint it makes sense to start out losing money, and build volumes until hybrid is more profitable.

I think its more like they've claimed it COSTS them 10k per unit over a regular hybrid, but the cost to the consumer of a Tahoe/Yukon hybrid (I'm not sure how well-optioned) will be no more than a fully loaded ICE Tahoe/Yukon. They are probably including the amortization of development/tooling costs when they come up with the 10k number and the claim that they'll lose money on every unit. I doubt that the variable cost difference is quite as high as 10k.

The Prius wasn't a big moneymaker early in its lifecycle. From GM's standpoint it makes sense to start out losing money, and build volumes until hybrid is more profitable.
Not to mention it'll be spread over more vehicles as MB and BMW use it.

Seriously, they complain that the HSD system is soo complex and expensive and then they manage to come up with something even more expensive (if we take their word for it) and complex.

Well, whatever works for them I suppose. At least it's better than their mild hybrid system.