Toyota crashes in reliability rankings

Automaker slips to fifth from first place, and some versions of Camry, Tundra and Lexus GS no longer recommended.

By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer
October 16 2007: 12:01 PM EDT


NEW YORK, CNNMoney.com -- The Toyota brand has lost its top position for iron-clad reliability, according to an influential Consumer Reports survey released Tuesday.

The survey dropped Toyota from first to fifth place - behind Honda, Acura, Scion and Subaru - in average vehicle reliability. The rankings are based on average predicted reliability for all models sold under a given brand.

http://i.l.cnn.net/money/2007/10/16/autos/cr_reliability/07toyota_camry_hybrid.03.jpg
2007 Toyota Camry: Because of poor predicted reliability, V6-powered versions of the Toyota Camry are no longer recommended by Consumer Reports.

Brands made by Toyota Motor Co. and Honda Motor Co. still dominate the rankings: Scion is Toyota's low-priced car brand and Acura is Honda's luxury car brand.

Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.

In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners.

But from now on, the magazine will wait for a full year of reliability survey data to come in before it recommends a Toyota product - as it does with most other manufacturers.

Manufacturers were not immediately available for comment.

Toyota recently passed Ford in sales and is now the second best-selling car company in the United States behind General Motors.

Domestic manufacturers General Motors (Charts, Fortune 500), Ford (Charts, Fortune 500) and Chrysler continued to improve in the Consumer Reports reliability rankings. But only Buick, GM's near-luxury brand ranked number 10, made into the top ten.

Among individual models, GM's closely related GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook SUVs earned a Consumer Reports recommendation based on their first full year of data. The Dodge Charger also earned a recommendation after its reliability showed substantial improvement from previous years.

Ford, in particular, is improving in quality, according to Consumer Reports. In all, 93 percent of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles showed average or better reliability in the most recent reliability survey.

Among overall brands, Ford's Mercury brand ranked 11th, the Ford brand ranked 13th and the Lincoln luxury brand ranked 14th. Other than Buick, they were the highest-ranking domestic brands.

Ford's quality has tended to be more consistent, with steady improvement year over year, than that of other domestic manufacturers, said David Champion, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports.

"GM and Chrysler have been more hit-and-miss," said Champion.

Of the 39 cars rated "Most Reliable" in Consumer Reports new list, four are by domestic manufacturers. They are the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, two-wheel-drives Ford F-150 V6 and GM's Pontiac Vibe. The Vibe is built in cooperation with Toyota and shares its engineering with the Toyota Matrix.

But 20 of the 44 "least reliable" models named by Consumer Reports were also from domestic manufacturers.

The least reliable car of all, according to Consumer Reports survey, is General Motors' Pontiac Solstice sports car. Its reliability was calculated to be 234 percent worse than average. It was followed closely by GM's Cadillac Escalade EXT, which is calculated to be 220 percent less reliable than the average vehicle.

European manufacturers showed some of the biggest improvements in overall brand rankings. Porsche rose 20 places since last year's survey to finish ninth, for example. Meanwhile, Mini rose 16 places and Jaguar rose 17.

Consumer Reports' reliability rankings differ significantly from those released recently by J.D. Power and Associates. In the J.D. Power most recent "Vehicle Dependability Survey," five of the top ten brands were domestic and Buick tied Lexus for first place.

One major reason for that difference: J.D. Power only surveys owners of three-year-old vehicles. But Consumer Reports surveys its subscribers about vehicles from all three of the most recent model years, unless the vehicle has changed significantly. If the vehicle has changed in that time, only vehicles built since the change are included.

Consumer Reports' rankings are based on survey responses from subscribers to the magazine and its Website. Responses included information on almost 1.3 million vehicles.

Over the past few years, both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power surveys have showed similar trends, however, with domestic car brands improving in quality with European brands generally lagging behind.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/autos/cr_reliability/index.htm?cnn=yes
.

Bet it's that pos transmission.

oh man, this is really sad. i have been saying it for a while and i will say it again. before going out and continue to expand at the rate they have been doing it for the past 2-3 yrs, toyota should really sit down and look at their quality and reliability to make sure they are good first. otherwise they will be the next detroit 3 eventually.

and it's a real shame that the camry is not receiving any good ratings anymore. it's almost like the trademark for toyota, and they manage to screw it up. that's a shame.....

so i guess it seems like the v6 engine/tranny is the problem? i suppose for the tundra and the gs it would be the v6 version? ummm, if that's the case, that's really horrible. toyota is famous for making strong and reliable engines and tranny, if they really have problems in this area as well, and most important on the v6 (which is becoming the real mainstream).... i know the es350 have issues with the drivetrain, which i suppose is the same setup in the camry. but i thought the gs350 has a different setup

are there further information on the lexus gs, what problems with it? maybe i should think twice about the new gs now

Is it:
1. Honda
2. Acura
3. Scion
4. Subaru
5. Toyota

?? No Lexus?

im sure they will bounce back next year
the transmission flare problem is really rare now
and the 3GS has been fixed according to flipside
toyota and lexus have been working hard in the past few months to fix their reliability problem
they knew about their reliability problem sometime ago and the good thing is they know how to fix things unlike some manufacturers

Is it:
1. Honda
2. Acura
3. Scion
4. Subaru
5. Toyota

?? No Lexus?
that means lexus is even below that?

anyway, ubernoob, can you give me a pointer on the problem on the 3gs? i would want to read more. is it on the gs300 or the gs350?

October 16, 2007
Consumer Reports' 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey highlights

After years of sterling reliability, Toyota is showing cracks in its armor, according to data from Consumer Reports' 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey. By contrast, Ford's domestic brands have made considerable improvements.

The V6 version of the company's top-selling Camry, and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup, both redesigned for 2007, now rate below average in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rating. (This rating does not apply to previous model years.) In addition, the all-wheel-drive version of the Lexus GS sedan also received a below average rating. Because Consumer Reports does not recommend models with below-average reliability, these models no longer make CR's "Recommended" list.

The four-cylinder and hybrid versions of the Camry and hybrid, rear-drive version of the GS scored above average in reliability and will continue to be Recommended. Despite these problems, Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind only Honda and Subaru. Still, because of these findings, CR will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice. Typically, CR will only recommend a vehicle if the magazine has at least one year of reliability data for that specific model.

CR's 2007 survey also shows that the odds of getting a reliable new vehicle from Ford are the best CR has seen in years. Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury models (93%) in CR's survey scored average or better in predicted reliability. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan are among the most reliable cars. They and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 V6 make up three of the only four domestic models on Consumer Reports' "Most Reliable" list. In addition, new-for-2007 SUVs such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX, as well as the freshened Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator, were all average or above.

Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on CR's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi. Not all models carrying Asian nameplates are reliable, either. The Hyundai Entourage, Infiniti QX56, Mazda CX-7, Nissan Armada (4WD), Quest, and Titan (4WD), and Toyota Tundra (V8, 4WD) are all on the "Least Reliable" list.

Besides the three Toyota-built models, other notable models with declining reliability include the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, and Volkswagen Passat (V6).

As for European brands, signs are pointing to an overall improvement. The Audi A3, A4, and A6 are now all above average or better, as are some or all versions of the BMW 3, 5, and 7 Series. The Volvo S60 is also above average. The Porsche 911 is above average and is now recommended.

For the first time in recent years, the Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6 RWD) is no longer below average, although an all-new C-Class has been introduced for 2008. Despite this, Mercedes-Benz still hovers near the bottom in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability scores comparison.

Findings are based on responses on almost 1.3 million vehicles owned or leased by subscribers to Consumer Reports or ConsumerReports.org. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2007 by Consumer Reports' National Survey Research Center and covered model years 1998 to 2007.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/10/car-reliability.html

are there further information on the lexus gs, what problems with it? maybe i should think twice about the new gs now

Supposedly it was "the accessories and audio system in the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan"

Now WHAT exactly is Consumer Reports complaining about??

One can think, they will have learned from this and the next revision will be improved. :) Toyota has had some :thumbdn: in the past 20 years so a few kinks here there are norm. Sad that any buyers have to go through this and especially on a bread-butter model.

oops it wasnt flipside909
it was 1sicklex that posted the thread on lexus fixing ES and GS problems
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291223&highlight=reliability

im not exactly sure what the problems are apart from rattles and things like that but ive heard about structural integrity problems for the 3GS
not sure if i read right though or if i remembered correctly at all

um, Toyota and Lexus together are 3rd overall.

But this is predicted reliability, right? Not actual reliability? I dont understand the difference? V8 AWD Tundra is brad new model too...

GS RWD and AWD have same "the accessories and audio system", RWD is reccomended and AWD is not?

My GS300 built in August 2005 has definitely had a couple of the common
annoying issues (dash rattles, seatbelt recall). No other problems so far
approaching 2 years of ownership.

Supposedly it was "the accessories and audio system in the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan"

Now WHAT exactly is Consumer Reports complaining about??
it would be funny why those have problems specifically on the awd version.

well, at least i am not looking at awd

it would be funny why those have problems specifically on the awd version.

well, at least i am not looking at awd
i would have an guess and say that more ppl with AWD version complained about rattles and lock-out when it drive...

It's not a "crash," but definately a downfall. (Journalists can be sooo dramatic... :rolleyes: )

Although Toyota quality has been slipping, they are still far ahead of other automakers.

Let's hope they fix the problem, before it gets worse...

Consumer Reports said 34 of the 39 models in the "Most Reliable" list are Asian, with 17 from Toyota.

17 out of 39 models are from Toyota... 44% of all reccomended models come from Toyota :-)

I can believe it, we have seen the complaints on forums. I want us all to put this in perspective though, espeically for Leuxs. We are talking about year after year after year being in the top 3 or 5 or even #1 for quality. Eventually, you are going to have a large issue, especially as volume increases.

What I am happy about is they are serious about fixing the issues and have stated fixing these issues is a top priority. I know that the GS and ES production lines were stopped 5 times in the past 2 years to let expert engineers inspect the cars and find the problem. This went as far as begging USA dealers to send cars back to Japan where the problems were reported.

So yeah, they dropped and might be down there for a couple years but I expect them to pick up the pace.

Kudos to all the winners. :thumbup:

So what are the issues with the Camry V6, Tundra V8 and AWD GS?

I can believe it, we have seen the complaints on forums. I want us all to put this in perspective though, espeically for Leuxs. We are talking about year after year after year being in the top 3 or 5 or even #1 for quality. Eventually, you are going to have a large issue, especially as volume increases.

What I am happy about is they are serious about fixing the issues and have stated fixing these issues is a top priority. I know that the GS and ES production lines were stopped 5 times in the past 2 years to let expert engineers inspect the cars and find the problem. This went as far as begging USA dealers to send cars back to Japan where the problems were reported.

So yeah, they dropped and might be down there for a couple years but I expect them to pick up the pace.

Kudos to all the winners. :thumbup:
and i definitely hope they continue to do that before going any further.

at least fix all the problems on the gs before i think about getting it :D

im sure they will bounce back next year
the transmission flare problem is really rare now
and the 3GS has been fixed according to flipside
toyota and lexus have been working hard in the past few months to fix their reliability problem
they knew about their reliability problem sometime ago and the good thing is they know how to fix things unlike some manufacturers

I think it's going beyond reliability. I read a quick review of the new Toyota Highlander. In the past, with SUVs, minivans and family sedans, Honda and Toyota basically trade top spots whenever the new version comes out and bests the other company's car. BUT--this review (and I forget where--sorry; I can try to find it) said that it is not the case with the Highlander, and that they missed the boat with features and specs that others such as Mazda are including in their SUVs. Hard to fathom. Are they just getting cocky?

For example, I saw a new Highlander limited a few weeks ago. It has the Smart Key--but no buttons on the rear doorhandles to lock. As annoying as it is to get my kids in the back seat of my IS250, I admit that's not a family sedan, so I can overlook it. But it's just inexcusable not to have all 4 doors tied to the Smart Key on a Highlander--they do it for the Avalon.

um, Toyota and Lexus together are 3rd overall.

But this is predicted reliability, right? Not actual reliability? I dont understand the difference? V8 AWD Tundra is brad new model too...

GS RWD and AWD have same "the accessories and audio system", RWD is reccomended and AWD is not?

CR polls its readers as to actual problems they have had, and comes up with "predicted reliability" on that basis.

I've said it before -the more technology you put in a car, the more issues you will have.

I ran into someone the other day who had a new Camry XLE and they were rattling off all of the features it has and how it cost $10K less than their previous car and yet has so many features that that previous car.

The fact is, Toyota has cranked up the technology game and there are teething issues when you do this (just ask BMW how the 2002 7-series roll-out went).

But they are a quality company and will fix this.

Maybe this is good. Toyota is known for quality cars. Maybe now they think that quanity is better than quality?

I think it's going beyond reliability. I read a quick review of the new Toyota Highlander. In the past, with SUVs, minivans and family sedans, Honda and Toyota basically trade top spots whenever the new version comes out and bests the other company's car. BUT--this review (and I forget where--sorry; I can try to find it) said that it is not the case with the Highlander, and that they missed the boat with features and specs that others such as Mazda are including in their SUVs. Hard to fathom. Are they just getting cocky?

For example, I saw a new Highlander limited a few weeks ago. It has the Smart Key--but no buttons on the rear doorhandles to lock. As annoying as it is to get my kids in the back seat of my IS250, I admit that's not a family sedan, so I can overlook it. But it's just inexcusable not to have all 4 doors tied to the Smart Key on a Highlander--they do it for the Avalon.
actually new Highlander has been rated really, really, really, well...

Maybe this is good. Toyota is known for quality cars. Maybe now they think that quanity is better than quality?
i know most ppl missed my post... maybe you were thinking that quantity of reccomended models is more important than quality?

Since Toyota had 17 out of 39.... 44% of all cars reccomended by CR are Toyotas.

:-)

i know most ppl missed my post... maybe you were thinking that quantity of reccomended models is more important than quality?

Since Toyota had 17 out of 39.... 44% of all cars reccomended by CR are Toyotas.

:-)

So what? At issue is that two of their newest models are WORST in reliability.

So what? At issue is that two of their newest models are WORST in reliability.

It relates to my initial post. Toyota is having issues with some models and is aware of them but HISTORICALLY, this is one of the best brands in relations to quality and Lexus is at levels unheard of for quality and consistency.

No one here is saying Toyota is invincible in quality and they would be a fool to say so.

Ugh...CNN money.

Consumer Reports said it no longer recommends V6 versions of Toyota's Camry or V8 versions of its Tundra pick-up because of poor reliability.

If you guys remember my recent reviews of both the new Tundra I-Force V8 4WD and the Camry SE, I mentioned that, while the underpinnings and drivetrains seemed well-designed, I clearly was not impressed with the quality of hardware, trim, sheet metal, and interior materials in either vehicle. That, of course, does not necessarily agree with CR's findings totally.....they still ave the 4-cylinder Camry on the recommended list, which shows that the V6 engine may be dropping in reliability instead. The old sludge/gel issues of the 3.0 V6 are no longer a factor...that was over 5 years ago.

Still, my attitude, based on many years of experience, is that if Consumer Reports makes a reliability statement, you can usually believe it. I know that not all CL members agree with me, but after following and watching CR for many years, their experience with reliability has closely approxomated mine....and I have owned a lot of cars.

If you guys remember my recent reviews of both the new Tundra I-Force V8 4WD and the Camry SE, I mentioned that, while the underpinnings and drivetrains seemed well-designed, I clearly was not impressed with the quality of hardware, trim, sheet metal, and interior materials in either vehicle. That, of course, does not necessarily agree with CR's findings totally.....they still ave the 4-cylinder Camry on the recommended list, which shows that the V6 engine may be dropping in reliability instead. The old sludge/gel issues of the 3.0 V6 are no longer a factor...that was over 5 years ago.

Still, my attitude, based on many years of experience, is that if Consumer Reports makes a reliability statement, you can usually believe it. I know that not all CL members agree with me, but after following and watching CR for many years, their experience with reliability has closely approxomated mine....and I have owned a lot of cars.

i believe the reasons why they did not recommend the V6 camry is due to the transmission slip problems they had a while back

and as for the V8 Tundra's, there was that recall a while back too that was just for the V8s wasnt there?

yeah i usually believe in CR too
a few months ago, they said 2001 GS300 is the most reliable car you can get from the 2001 model year, which we all know is true as well (or was it JD Powers that said it?)
:D :D :D they make me happy

... Findings are based on responses on almost 1.3 million vehicles owned or leased by subscribers to Consumer Reports or ConsumerReports.org. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2007 by Consumer Reports' National Survey Research Center and covered model years 1998 to 2007.

I'm no statistician (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :D) but doesn't this sample size sound miniscule?

1.3 million vehicles covering 10 years of models. How many of those do you think are '06s and '07s? My guess 2-3% at most? That would be 13,000-16,000 surveys. So how many '06-'07 Lexus GS responses do you think they got? My guess would be much less than 1% given HOW MANY different vehicles there are on the market and we know what GS sales figures are for example (I mean compare GS sales to a Camry for example, it's what 2K/mo. vs. 40K/mo.?). At .5% we're looking at about 75 '06-'07 GS responses! NOT MANY!!! Hardly enough to draw much of a conclusion in my opinion.

Maybe their 'system' works for cars like Camry and mass market pickups, but not for niche vehicles unless I'm way off.

[i]... Still, because of these findings, CR will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model.

:egads: :egads: :egads: To have in the past automatically recommended Toyotas with no data is ludicrous. Do they STILL do this for other brands like Honda!? :uh:

If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice.

What does this mean!? If the BACKWARD trends improve we'll resume automatically giving Toyota a 'recommended'. This is absurd because they've done it even to BRAND NEW overhauls of existing nameplates.

On a more positive note about CR - I think most on CL here have the sense that CR has caught some real prevailing trends. That Toyota has been having some problems isn't really a surprise at least to me, but they're still excellent and near the top - it's just a bit more hit and miss now. Nor is it a surprise that Ford has improved a lot - I personally saw this starting around '04.

I think this will hurt Toyota somewhat, because the CR audience are an almost exact overlap with Toyota demographics wanting practical, affordable, reliable and safe vehicles (if almost mind-numbingly boring).

When Toyota or anyone else screws up their feet should be held to the fire instead of spinning and making exuses, how do you think the big three sunk to their low point quality wise? Because for decades people continued to buy based on loyalty and past reputation, demand continued high standards and don't accept wait till next year.

When Toyota or anyone else screws up their feet should be held to the fire instead of spinning and making exuses, how do you think the big three sunk to their low point quality wise? Because for decades people continued to buy based on loyalty and past reputation, demand continued high standards and don't accept wait till next year.

What he said. If Toyota wants to really follow GM, then start spinning the numbers and try to make a claim that it doesn't matter because of their past performance or some statistical hand waving. Like 1Sick said, look at some of the model boards and look at the complaints posted here. I also have personal experience with Lexus service writers being very upfront about problems with models. I was advised not to get an LS for at least nine months to see if the issues on it get resolved. Seems like Doug is right on when he talks about technology inclusion as Toyota/Lexus are having their own electrical goblins to tame.

As for CR essentially giving new Toyota models a free ride on reliability rating, when did they start doing that? And where did they let anyone know they were doing that? CR deserves some of their own feet held to the fire for that one IMO. Giving Toyota/Lexus the benefit of the doubt on new model reliability isn't exactly thorough investigation and reporting. As good as Toyota/Lexus has been, shame on CR doing that. Obviously they have also done the reverse to new models from bimmer or MB or GM as far as assuming they will not be reliable. Shame on them.

Brands from Asia Remain on Top (http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=64180)

Models from Honda Motor Co. and Acura, its luxury division, are ranked highest, according to Consumer Reports magazine, which polled about 1 million subscribers.
The Associated Press

DETROIT — Asian brands continue to trounce their domestic rivals in Consumer Reports’ annual survey of vehicle reliability, but Toyota’s scores are falling while Ford is making its most reliable vehicles in years, the nonprofit group said Tuesday.

Honda Motor Co. and its luxury Acura nameplate topped this year’s list, which predicts the reliability of 2008 model year vehicles based on past performance.

Hummer and Land Rover were the least reliable. The top-rated domestic brand was Buick, which was 10th.

The ratings, which are based on surveys of approximately 1 million online and print subscribers to Consumer Reports magazine, are closely watched by automakers because of their influence on car buyers. This year’s survey was conducted in the spring and covered 1.3 million vehicles from the 1998 to 2007 model years.

Making it into the top 10 were Toyota Motor Corp.’s Lexus, Scion and Toyota brands, and Toyota had 17 vehicles on Consumer Reports’ list of the 39 most reliable models, far more than any other automaker.

But Consumer Reports said the storied brand “is showing cracks in its armor” and no longer will receive automatic recommendations from the magazine when it releases new or redesigned vehicles.

The magazine used to recommend Toyota without any reliability data based on past performance.

Consumer Reports said buyers had problems with the automatic transmission in the V6 version of the Toyota Camry sedan; the four-wheel-drive system in the V8 version of the Toyota Tundra pickup; and the accessories and audio system in the all-wheel-drive Lexus GS sedan.

“We believe Toyota is aware of its issues and is trying to fix problems quickly,” David Champion, the senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, said in a statement.

Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said the company is encouraged that its vehicles ranked highly.

He added that Toyota believes it’s fair not to give the automaker automatic recommendations.

“Frankly, we think that as we redouble our efforts around quality they may afford us that exception again in the future,” he said.

Consumer Reports’ Champion said Ford Motor Co.’s reliability is steadily and consistently improving.

Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models — or 93 percent — scored average or better in predicted reliability, compared with 67 percent of Chrysler LLC’s models and 49 percent of General Motors Corp.’s models.

The Lincoln Mark LT, a luxury pickup, was the only Ford vehicle on Consumer Reports’ list of the 44 least reliable vehicles. GM had 13 models on that list, while Chrysler had six and Toyota had one.

European brands including Jaguar and Mercedes-Benz have had dismal ratings in the past few years, and 17 of the models on Consumer Reports’ least-reliable list are from Europe, the magazine said.

But European makers scored better this year.

Audi’s A3, A4 and A6 sedans and BMW’s 3, 5 and 7 Series sedans all were average or better, while the Volvo S60 was rated above average after failing to get even an average rating two years ago.

Consumer Reports’ reliability issue is scheduled to hit newsstands Nov. 6. The magazine is published by the nonprofit Consumers Union, which is based in Yonkers, N.Y.

Most, least reliable vehicles
Worst: Dodge Caliber, Volkswagen Jetta.

Family car
Best: Toyota Prius, Honda Accord.
Worst: Chevrolet Impala, Volkswagen Passat.

Upscale/luxury car
Best: Lexus GS450h (hybrid), Acura TSX.
Worst: Cadillac STS, Mercedes-Benz CLS.

Wagon/minivan:
Best: Pontiac Vibe, Scion xB.
Worst: Chevrolet Uplander, Hyundai Entourage.

Small sport utility
Best: Honda Element, Mitsubishi Outlander.
Worst: Dodge Nitro, Jeep Wrangler (four-door).

Midsize sport utility
Best: Toyota Highlander, Honda Pilot.
Worst: Land Rover Range Rover, Land Rover Range Rover Sport.

Large sport utility
Best: Toyota Land Cruiser (no second pick).
Worst: Chevrolet Suburban 2500, GMC Yukon XL 2500.

Pickup truck
Best: Toyota Tundra (V8, two wheel drive), Toyota Tacoma (four-cylinder).
Worst: Cadillac Escalade EXT, Toyota Tundra (V8, four-wheel drive).

actually new Highlander has been rated really, really, really, well...

Wouldn't surprise me. I was far more impressed with it (especially the Limited model) than either the new Camry or Tundra. But it is brand-new, and has not been out long enough to have any kind of significant reliability database. We won't have any meaningful figures for another 8-9 months or so.

Still, the new Highlander, in general, seems to reflect a growing realization by Toyota that they had to reverse a trend...and did.

Toyota Slipping (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/Advice/ToyotaIsSlippingConsumerReportsSays.aspx)
Magazine won't automatically recommend redesigned Toyotas, citing below-average quality in new models. Ford improves dramatically.
By MSN Money staff

Consumer Reports magazine reported today that the quality of cars made by Toyota, long the benchmark for reliability among automotive brands, had slipped so much that the organization no longer will automatically recommend them.

Releasing the results of its 2007 annual Car Reliability Survey today in Detroit, the magazine said two high-profile models, the top-selling Camry V-6 and the four-wheel-drive Tundra pickup, both redesigned this year, scored below average. Consumer Reports won't recommend any model scoring below average to its readers.

Typically, Consumer Reports will recommend a vehicle only if it has at least one year of reliability data. New and redesigned Toyota models had been exempted from that standard because of the company's record. The magazine said today it no longer will recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design.

Now, only Honda and Subaru have that distinction. Despite its emerging problems, Toyota, which also makes Lexus and Scion brand cars, still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind Honda, which also makes Acuras, and Subaru. The top-ranked domestic brand is General Motors' Buick.

Ford scores big
For Ford, the news was positive. The magazine said 93% of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models scored average or better, allowing a "Recommended" designation.

"Ford continues to improve," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center. "The reliability of their cars has steadily improved over the years and is showing consistency." He added, "We believe Toyota is aware of its issues and is trying to fix problems quickly."

Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models scored average or better in predicted reliability. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan are among the most reliable cars. They and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 V6 pickup make up three of the only four domestic models on Consumer Reports' "Most Reliable" list. In addition, the magazine scored new-for-2007 SUVs such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX, as well as the freshened Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator, average or above.

Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models -- 20 of 44 -- on the magazine's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, six are from Chrysler and one is from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi. Not all models carrying Asian nameplates are reliable, either. The Hyundai Entourage; Infiniti QX56; Mazda CX-7; Nissan Armada (4WD), Quest and Titan (4WD); and Toyota Tundra (V8, 4WD) are all on the "Least Reliable" list.

Findings are based on responses on almost 1.3 million vehicles owned or leased by subscribers to Consumer Reports or its Web site. The survey covered model years 1998 to 2007.

How makes compareRank Make % above avg.

Rank Make % above avg.

1 Honda 48
2 Acura 44
3 Scion 43
4 Subaru 38
5 Toyota 38
6 Lexus 34
7 Infiniti 31
8 Mitsubishi 31
9 Porsche 30
10 Buick 20
11 Mercury 18
12 Mini 17
13 Ford 16
14 Lincoln 14
15 Hyundai 12
16 Jaguar 10
17 Mazda 8
18 BMW 3
19 Volvo 2
20 Chrysler 1
21 Nissan 1
22 Audi -9
23 Kia -9
24 Saturn -13
25 Saab -14
26 Dodge -21
27 Suzuki -22
28 GMC -24
29 Jeep -26
30 Chevrolet -32
31 Volkswagen -40
32 Pontiac -42
33 Mercedes-Benz -57
34 Cadillac -68
35 Hummer -86
36 Land Rover -153

It's really hard to argue with Honda and Acura's position, despite some cheap-quality trim in the interior of some of their newest models. Honda seems to have a magic touch for assembling vehicles like Swiss watches and making durable drivetrains. I can (sometimes) tell a Honda-made door or door handle, blindfolded, just from the sound it makes closing and the feel of the handle in operation.


Toyota, though, still, IMO, has THE best paint jobs in the industry, among mass-production cars. The paintwork on even entry-level Scions and Yaris models is just superb.

Mercedes-Benz, despite still far-below average rating, seems to be making some improvement at long last. For several years they were right down at the very bottom with Land Rover.

Given the good fit-and-finish and general overall build quality of recent Hyundais (and the good accuracy of CR data), I would have expected Hyundai to be a little higher than it is.....but still, it is not bad, especially given their low prices.

And, for all the griping we hear about Jaguar's poor quality, you'll notice they finish slightly above average...better than any other European manufactuers except Mini and Porsche.

Yet another sensationalist article from the media :thumbdn:.

Toyota did not "crash" in reliability rankings, not even close! They simply dropped.

Toyota has known about these problems for a long time now and has implemented fixes to improve quality. It will take a few years before we see the full extent of the quality fixes Toyota has put in place.

:(

Toyota/Lexus please come back with your reliability.

*sigh*

It's really hard to argue with Honda and Acura's position, despite some cheap-quality trim in the interior of some of their newest models. Honda seems to have a magic touch for assembling vehicles like Swiss watches and making durable drivetrains. I can (sometimes) tell a Honda-made door or door handle, blindfolded, just from the sound it makes closing and the feel of the handle in operation.


Toyota, though, still, IMO, has THE best paint jobs in the industry, among mass-production cars. The paintwork on even entry-level Scions and Yaris models is just superb.

Mercedes-Benz, despite still far-below average rating, seems to be making some improvement at long last. For several years they were right down at the very bottom with Land Rover.

Given the good fit-and-finish and general overall build quality of recent Hyundais (and the good accuracy of CR data), I would have expected Hyundai to be a little higher than it is.....but still, it is not bad, especially given their low prices.

And, for all the griping we hear about Jaguar's poor quality, you'll notice they finish slightly above average...better than any other European manufactuers except Mini and Porsche.


Good point about Honda/Acura, I have always been very impressed with their cars quality and they have never let our family down and were always great cars to own.

I can't really agree with Toyota/Lexus having great paint jobs, my GS is among the worst I have ever experienced aside from my grandmothers 80's silver Pontiac Bonneville. I have never seen a paint job so easily chipped and scratched and etched as my GS430. There are several complaints and threads about the poor paint/ chip prone finsihes on Lexus vehicles. This is not just a case of newer paints being more chip prone because I have not seen it in other makes or nearly as bad as Lexus. My parents Acuras were made around when my car was made and are driven in the same manner and have very little chips/scratches where my car gets them all the time. It also has bad orange peel on the sides and even has a large visible drip mark on the rear quarter panel that I am amazed made it past quality control. Their is also etch spots on the hood. My Mitsubishi Eclipse and 96 Accord had much better paints jobs and had much fewer chips or defects, the Eclipse had twice as many miles and was driven much more aggressively, I don't drive the GS aggressively at all.

I'm no statistician (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :D) but doesn't this sample size sound miniscule?

1.3 million vehicles covering 10 years of models. How many of those do you think are '06s and '07s? My guess 2-3% at most? That would be 13,000-16,000 surveys. So how many '06-'07 Lexus GS responses do you think they got? My guess would be much less than 1% given HOW MANY different vehicles there are on the market and we know what GS sales figures are for example (I mean compare GS sales to a Camry for example, it's what 2K/mo. vs. 40K/mo.?). At .5% we're looking at about 75 '06-'07 GS responses! NOT MANY!!! Hardly enough to draw much of a conclusion in my opinion.

Maybe their 'system' works for cars like Camry and mass market pickups, but not for niche vehicles unless I'm way off.



:egads: :egads: :egads: To have in the past automatically recommended Toyotas with no data is ludicrous. Do they STILL do this for other brands like Honda!? :uh:



What does this mean!? If the BACKWARD trends improve we'll resume automatically giving Toyota a 'recommended'. This is absurd because they've done it even to BRAND NEW overhauls of existing nameplates.

On a more positive note about CR - I think most on CL here have the sense that CR has caught some real prevailing trends. That Toyota has been having some problems isn't really a surprise at least to me, but they're still excellent and near the top - it's just a bit more hit and miss now. Nor is it a surprise that Ford has improved a lot - I personally saw this starting around '04.

I think this will hurt Toyota somewhat, because the CR audience are an almost exact overlap with Toyota demographics wanting practical, affordable, reliable and safe vehicles (if almost mind-numbingly boring).


I'm not a statistician, and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn Express, but CR has been rating cars for years, and ususally hit the mark, as others here have attested to. I'm pretty sure that if they don't get enough responses, they will state they have insufficient info.

this whole article is totally overblown. All they said is that they won't just rubber stamp a brand new Toyota as recommended without actual data on its performance, just like almost all other brands CR tests. All Toyota makes were still in the top six overall, as well as a substantial number of individual models being the "most reliable".

Toyota, though, still, IMO, has THE best paint jobs in the industry, among mass-production cars. The paintwork on even entry-level Scions and Yaris models is just superb.

My buddy and I were talking about that the other day.

Now if only their paint could repel car doors. Both of my mom's RXs have been magnets for chips from people swinging their car doors open.

I can't really agree with Toyota/Lexus having great paint jobs, my GS is among the worst I have ever experienced aside from my grandmothers 80's silver Pontiac Bonneville. I have never seen a paint job so easily chipped and scratched and etched as my GS430. There are several complaints and threads about the poor paint/ chip prone finsihes on Lexus vehicles. .

I'm not saying Toyota/Lexus paint can't be chipped. Almost any automotive paint can be if something hits it hard enough. But compare the smoothness, evenness, and luster of Toyota paint jobs with that of almost any other mass-produced car, and you'll see what I mean. ;)

lol, so Lexus is #6,
BMW is #18
Audi is #22
Benz is # 33
Caddy is #34

lol, so Lexus is #6,
BMW is #18
Audi is #22
Benz is # 33
Caddy is #34

The new Cadillac CTS (see my review) is head-and-shoulders above its predecessors, though, in several areas. It will be interesting to see how well they hold up once they start to get some miles on them.

The new Cadillac CTS (see my review) is head-and-shoulders above its predecessors, though, in several areas. It will be interesting to see how well they hold up once they start to get some miles on them.

It may look cool, it may have competitive new features, but there's no way that it's not built to the same old GM crappy quality.

Especially now that Caddy is building cars that are cool again, and attracting younger buyers, the "consumer satifaction" ratings for Caddy will not go up, even if the actual quality of the car has improved from years past. If Caddy attracts buyers out of their Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and even the German makes, there will be many dissatisfied customers making direct comparisons to those makes. It's much easier to "satisfy" customers who were lured away from Lincolns and Buicks...

There's lies, bigger lies, and statistics. :p How ARE these rankings put together?

If one brand is 50% below average that to me means it has twice as many problems as average. So if the average is say '3' problems, then one 50% below average has 6 problems. Now 3 extra problems doesn't sound so bad, but 50% worse sounds terrible! :rolleyes:

Rank Make % above avg.
1 Honda 48
2 Acura 44
3 Scion 43
4 Subaru 38
5 Toyota 38
6 Lexus 34
7 Infiniti 31
8 Mitsubishi 31
9 Porsche 30
10 Buick 20
11 Mercury 18
12 Mini 17
13 Ford 16
14 Lincoln 14
15 Hyundai 12
16 Jaguar 10
17 Mazda 8
18 BMW 3
19 Volvo 2
20 Chrysler 1
21 Nissan 1
22 Audi -9
23 Kia -9
24 Saturn -13
25 Saab -14
26 Dodge -21
27 Suzuki -22
28 GMC -24
29 Jeep -26
30 Chevrolet -32
31 Volkswagen -40
32 Pontiac -42
33 Mercedes-Benz -57
34 Cadillac -68
35 Hummer -86
36 Land Rover -153

Yet another sensationalist article from the media :thumbdn:.

Toyota did not "crash" in reliability rankings, not even close! They simply dropped.

Toyota has known about these problems for a long time now and has implemented fixes to improve quality. It will take a few years before we see the full extent of the quality fixes Toyota has put in place.

I agree completely! Couldn't possibly be a ploy to sell more CR subscriptions. :p

I agree completely! Couldn't possibly be a ploy to sell more CR subscriptions. :p
The title with "Toyota crashes" is a title made up by cnn/money to describe CR's most recent release, other news sources have used less sensational titles to describe the same from CR, like "Japanese models continue to dominate in the latest CR ratings" etc. . . . .

As an owner of an 07 ES 350 with a tranny that flares and an engine that has severe cold engine knock, I am happy this is out in the press. This kind of negative press is what Toyota and Lexus need...a slap in the face.

I have been given the cold shoulder at the service department, being told it is normal operation. I expect a lot more from a Lexus product.

Not to mention, my wife's previous 2004 Toyota Sienna was horrible. Severe hesitation and an engine that knocked unless I used 93 octane. Several computer flashes later, we traded it on a Honda Pilot and love it!! Not one warranty claim to date.

:thumbup: to CNN money for this article!!

As an owner of an 07 ES 350 with a tranny that flares and an engine that has severe cold engine knock, I am happy this is out in the press. This kind of negative press is what Toyota and Lexus need...a slap in the face.

I have been given the cold shoulder at the service department, being told it is normal operation. I expect a lot more from a Lexus product.

Not to mention, my wife's previous 2004 Toyota Sienna was horrible. Severe hesitation and an engine that knocked unless I used 93 octane. Several computer flashes later, we traded it on a Honda Pilot and love it!! Not one warranty claim to date.

:thumbup: to CNN money for this article!!

I wonder why the ES350 isn't mentioned along with the Camry V6 when discussing CR's findings on the trans issue? An oversite, or maybe because they aren't out there in the same big numbers as Camry?

Oh, the irony:

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?ei=UTF-8&gid=1243405&vid=1265961&b=0

I agree completely! Couldn't possibly be a ploy to sell more CR subscriptions. :p

CR magazines don't operate....or sell......that way. They also don't take any advertising money of any kind, from any manufacturer or any public relations/ad firms. Their magazines and articles, for the most part, are as plain as vanilla. That is one of their traditions.

They are also one of the few magazines not to put their whole publications on their web site. A few things ARE put on the site, but to get the entire article...and the important data.....you either have to have a formal magazine or Internet subscription. I personally don't care for their Internet policy, but perhaps that is one of the reasons they are able to avoid corporate money tainting their decisions....most of their income is from subscriptions. They also charge for auto-pricing reports and requests.

I wonder why the ES350 isn't mentioned along with the Camry V6 when discussing CR's findings on the trans issue? An oversite, or maybe because they aren't out there in the same big numbers as Camry?
its probably reccomended vehicle... since 17 Toyota/Lexus/Scions are reccomended, probably only Camry V6, V8 Tundra and AWD GS are NOT reccomended

:-)

As an owner of an 07 ES 350 with a tranny that flares and an engine that has severe cold engine knock, I am happy this is out in the press. This kind of negative press is what Toyota and Lexus need...a slap in the face.

I have been given the cold shoulder at the service department, being told it is normal operation. I expect a lot more from a Lexus product.

Not to mention, my wife's previous 2004 Toyota Sienna was horrible. Severe hesitation and an engine that knocked unless I used 93 octane. Several computer flashes later, we traded it on a Honda Pilot and love it!! Not one warranty claim to date.

:thumbup: to CNN money for this article!!

The service department giving you a cold shoulder is not directly Toyota's fault; it's the fault of the dealership. While Toyota tries to control and maintain certain standards at dealers, some dealerships operate however they want which includes poor treatment of customers.

Toyota itself has admitted the issues about the tranny flare, not sure about the cold knock.

The service department giving you a cold shoulder is not directly Toyota's fault; it's the fault of the dealership. While Toyota tries to control and maintain certain standards at dealers, some dealerships operate however they want which includes poor treatment of customers.

Toyota itself has admitted the issues about the tranny flare, not sure about the cold knock.

But why does Toyota KEEP producing transmissions like this? Nobody seems to be able to answer that.

Flares and RPM-slipping, both cold and warm, were a problem on 2001-2003 ES300/330 and 2001-2002 IS300 models, and possibly some other Lexus models as well (I am not familiar with every known instance). I don't want to sound like a Monday morning quarterback, but when you don't learn after a whole string of games, something is wrong. Apparantly the mistakes of those earlier transmissions were not taken to heart.

It is one thing to recognize an engineering mistake and attempt to correct it.........it is quite another matter to repeat it over and over again. That is one of the things, for example, that turned so many people against GM, and why it lost so much market share.

There's an old saying....."Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on ME".

But why does Toyota KEEP producing transmissions like this? Nobody seems to be able to answer that.

Flares and RPM-slipping, both cold and warm, were a problem on 2001-2003 ES300/330 and 2001-2002 IS300 models, and possibly some other Lexus models as well (I am not familiar with every known instance). I don't want to sound like a Monday morning quarterback, but when you don't learn after a whole string of games, something is wrong. Apparantly the mistakes of those earlier transmissions were not taken to heart.

It is one thing to recognize an engineering mistake and attempt to correct it.........it is quite another matter to repeat it over and over again. That is one of the things, for example, that turned so many people against GM, and why it lost so much market share.

There's an old saying....."Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on ME".

That's a good question. Personally, I'm not too familiar with the flare issues on the ES300/ES300 or on the IS300.

From what I've heard, Toyota's 5 speed auto tranny is a solid and reliable unit.

I'm quite sure Toyota knows what the problem is, but it is strange as to why Toyota continues to make transmissions with these problems. Could be related to Toyota's engineers being stretched so thin over the past few years combined with focus on cost-cutting and a bit of wavering of focus on quality.

That's a good question. Personally, I'm not too familiar with the flare issues on the ES300/ES300 or on the IS300.

From what I've heard, Toyota's 5 speed auto tranny is a solid and reliable unit.

I'm quite sure Toyota knows what the problem is, but it is strange as to why Toyota continues to make transmissions with these problems. Could be related to Toyota's engineers being stretched so thin over the past few years combined with focus on cost-cutting and a bit of wavering of focus on quality.

I had a 2001 IS300. I'm not bad-mouthing it by any means. It was, otherwise, a superb car, quality-wise, but it had a minor but irritating glitch, usually on the 2-3 shift but sometimes the 1-2 as well. At unpredictable intervals and transmission temperatures, the 2-3 shift would allow the RPM to momentarily "flare" or jump, as it shifted (about 200-300 RPM), with a noise jump as well. Slowing down to about 5 MPH or so, without stopping, and hitting the gas also produced a big RPM flare with virtually no response at all, and no downshift (if you stopped and started back up again you were OK). It was also quite harsh-shifting in all the gears when cold.....then unbelievably smooth when warm, when the flare didn't happen.

ES300/330 owners had a different problem. The tranny simply would not respond at all in certain gears at certain speeds (well below redline). It made for aome dangerous entrys into fast-moving traffic.

There were several excuses given for this.....from bad computer ECU programming to emissions requirements to inadquate previous factory fixes.


(In fact, THAT was how I originally joined Club Lexus. I was looking for Internet information on that transmission problem, and found quite a bit of it here.....and I've stayed ever since)

Thanks for the info and clarification :thumbup:.

I guess it's a combination of reasons as to why Toyota's new transmissions still experience these problems to an extent. It could also be problems at Toyota's transmission supplier Aisin.

Hopefully Toyota does implement permanent fixes for these issues with future trannies.

In the meantime, there is still no fix to the flare issue. I have also called Lexus customer service, they took notes of my issues, but were no help.

If I had the time to fool around with this, I would get an attorney and pursue a buyback. But, for now, I'll drive it until just before 50K miles and trade it. I am sure not going to take a financial loss on it.

By the way, this is my first and last Lexus. Back to Acura I go....

^^^^ Acura has worse tranny issues. Good luck!

As I have said before the top 10 cars are all about the same. The difference in issues per 100 vehicles is 2 compared to 3. :egads: Yet we somehow think because a car brand is number one that it is somehow light years ahead of everyone else. This is simply not the case.

The fact that Lexus is slipping is not significant. The fact that it is tied with Buick is significant.

Lexus will turn it around. it will take 3-5 years at least though. Car manufacturers are a like aircraft carriers. You cannot turn them quickly. we started seeing issues with toyota several years ago. The issue continued to increase. It will take years to decrease the amount of issues.

I would not have an issue buying any car in the top 10 regardless of brand.

Toyota Admits V6 Flaw (http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-admits-camry-v6-flaw-reacts-to-consumer-reports-survey.html)
Despite being knocked from the top spot in Consumer Reports' reliability survey, Toyota executives are pleased with the results. Overall, Toyota still placed first in 6 out of 8 reliability categories and represented 44% of the magazines most recommended vehicles.

However, Toyota's top brass was concerned that three of its vehicles were moved to the "not recommended" category — the Camry V6, Tundra V8 and Lexus GS AWD. “The bad news from our perspective is we never want to see vehicles on the ‘not recommend’ list,” Jim Lentz, executive vice president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. told Automotive News.

Lentz said he was not surprised that the Camry V6 was on the list as it had a transmission flaw that Toyota was aware of.
“We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said. The problem caused the transmission to get stuck in second gear or pass through second gear roughly. However, Lentz doesn't feel the flaw will impact Toyota's reputation for quality. “I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Lentz had no explanation for the other two vehicles making the "not recommended" list.

Slowing down to about 5 MPH or so, without stopping, and hitting the gas also produced a big RPM flare with virtually no response at all,

Sadly I have the same problem on my GS400, which uses the same A650E transmission as the IS300.

It's very annoying when I slow down to a near stop, and then give the car some throttle, only to find the transmission slamming into a gear. That hard jerk is definitely not lexus-like. Still no cure for me. It's the most annoying aspect of my car.:thumbdn:

Well, Toyota wanted to be the big cheese on top of ladder, they've gotten there. Now they've been slapped in the face by "big brother" magazine. Do they get angry and fix their problems, or cry like a beeyotch and try to run to mommy? I think this will be a good thing for Toyota, to get back to basics and remember what got them to #1, good products with excellent reliability and quality.

^^^^ Acura has worse tranny issues. Good luck!


But at least Acura has learned from their mistake. The current auto transmissions have no problems that's known. The last of the horrible transmissions were sold in 2003-2004.

Although Toyota's transmission problem isn't as wide-spread as Honda's, it's still pisses off many buyers/owners. I too would be mad if I spent near $30k only to have transmission problems.:sad:

Well, my mom's Sienna has been pretty much trouble-free save for a failed AC compressor this summer. But Toyota is starting to cost-cut like crazy now. :(

Toyota Admits V6 Flaw (http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-admits-camry-v6-flaw-reacts-to-consumer-reports-survey.html)
Despite being knocked from the top spot in Consumer Reports' reliability survey, Toyota executives are pleased with the results. Overall, Toyota still placed first in 6 out of 8 reliability categories and represented 44% of the magazines most recommended vehicles.

However, Toyota's top brass was concerned that three of its vehicles were moved to the "not recommended" category — the Camry V6, Tundra V8 and Lexus GS AWD. “The bad news from our perspective is we never want to see vehicles on the ‘not recommend’ list,” Jim Lentz, executive vice president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. told Automotive News.

Lentz said he was not surprised that the Camry V6 was on the list as it had a transmission flaw that Toyota was aware of.
“We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said. The problem caused the transmission to get stuck in second gear or pass through second gear roughly. However, Lentz doesn't feel the flaw will impact Toyota's reputation for quality. “I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Lentz had no explanation for the other two vehicles making the "not recommended" list.




Oh really? So you knew in the beginning but proceeded to release the car and not fix it ever since "knowing" about it? :thumbdn:

Toyota Admits V6 Flaw (http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-admits-camry-v6-flaw-reacts-to-consumer-reports-survey.html)

“I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Lentz had no explanation for the other two vehicles making the "not recommended" list.


And this guy Lentz holds the title he does? These results do not even include the chronic and multiple defects of the ES350 or any issues of the LS as wind noise.

The problem with Lexus/Toyota quality on a downward spiral is it's delusional and/or excuse making managers and they engaging many dealers into attempting to hoodwink customers about obvious defects.

Oh really? So you knew in the beginning but proceeded to release the car and not fix it ever since "knowing" about it? :thumbdn:

Exactly. It is not the fact that there is a tranny issue, it is the way the customer is treated in regards to resolving the issue. So far, piss poor for me.

As to Acura, yeah they had tranny issues. But, they stepped up and extended the warranty on all of the units and took care of their customers. Don't see anything like that from Toyota or Lexus. Instead, they will stick it to their customers and let them live with the issues.

Exactly. It is not the fact that there is a tranny issue, it is the way the customer is treated in regards to resolving the issue. So far, piss poor for me.

As to Acura, yeah they had tranny issues. But, they stepped up and extended the warranty on all of the units and took care of their customers. Don't see anything like that from Toyota or Lexus. Instead, they will stick it to their customers and let them live with the issues.

And the Honda/Acura transmission issues were often outright failures, not just shifting and programming quirks like with Toyota/Lexus.

But at least Acura has learned from their mistake. The current auto transmissions have no problems that's known. The last of the horrible transmissions were sold in 2003-2004.

Although Toyota's transmission problem isn't as wide-spread as Honda's, it's still pisses off many buyers/owners. I too would be mad if I spent near $30k only to have transmission problems.:sad:

Honda/Acura transmissions continue to have gear hunting and rough shifting problems. GM's 6 speed tranny is also being reported as having some flare or hunting issues. So why then is Toyota getting most of the criticism? Just because it's cool to criticize Toyota? :rolleyes:

Oh really? So you knew in the beginning but proceeded to release the car and not fix it ever since "knowing" about it? :thumbdn:

You misinterpreted the story. The real story is Toyota discovered the transmission problem AFTER the car was already in production. The problem was discovered at the factory during production.

Exactly. It is not the fact that there is a tranny issue, it is the way the customer is treated in regards to resolving the issue. So far, piss poor for me.

As to Acura, yeah they had tranny issues. But, they stepped up and extended the warranty on all of the units and took care of their customers. Don't see anything like that from Toyota or Lexus. Instead, they will stick it to their customers and let them live with the issues.

Did you not see the recall for 2007 Camrys last year that was specifically for this transmission issue? Or how about dozens of customers who got their tranny replaced with a new unit free of charge?

Like mmarshall has stated; the Toyota transmission problems are mostly shifting and programming quirks. The Honda transmissions were experiencing outright failures. I'm not excusing Toyota's problems, but the Honda transmission problems were more severe than the Toyota problems right now.

^^^^ Acura has worse tranny issues. Good luck!

Acura does not have any tranny issues with any models right now. They corrected the issues with the new 04 TL model/bodystyle. I have not heard of any transmission issues even over the internet with the new TL bodystyle aside from the odd 1 or 2 complaints which may or may not be true. I still have not known or talked to anyone that has had an issue with an Acura TL/CL transmissions and I know alot of people with these cars. My parents have a TL and CL from the Gen that was supposed to be affected and have never had any kind of transmission issue, they feel rock solid. Many of the failures that I read about on the internet were Type S models that were most likely driven very hard, I remember reading about a guy on Acura forums that had his Type S putting out over 300hp to the wheels and complaining he blew a tranny when racing which is not totally the fault of the transmission. If you abuse the car too much and mod it then he should not be surprised when something fails. Even though it was modded Acura still replaced his transmission from the extended warranty. Even the ones that did fail prematurely that were not driven hard were replaced under an extended warranty with no hassles from Acura. Although it may be somewhat dissapointing to have a possible issue like this at least Honda/Acura did the right thing and extended the warranty and fixed the problem for no fees. I am pretty positive Lexus would not do that if the same occured to them. Just taking the 2nd Gen GS the common issues are low/rough idle, headlight moisture, door lock actuators failing, lower ball joints failing, squeeks/rattles, etc. Most of these issues are pretty expensive to fix and some are potentially life threatening or could lead your car getting broken into yet Lexus has done absolutely nothing to correct these problems or offering an extended warranty for these problems/issues that it is well aware of and just lets the owners fork the bill when they are out of warranty. At least Acura did the right thing and extended the warranty to 100K miles and fixed the problem for the next gen.

Acura does not have any tranny issues with any models right now. They corrected the issues with the new 04 TL model/bodystyle. I have not heard of any transmission issues even over the internet with the new TL bodystyle.

A number of people (including myself) continue to have issues with rough shifting and gear hunting on Honda/Acura trannies. Similar complaints have been made about GM's 6 speed transmissions.

When Consumer's Reports gets the Lexus buyer's input from all the transmission flares, ES-350 buy backs, rattles, wind noise, and so forth discussed in the ES-350 forum the Lexus ratings will also take a hit.

A number of people (including myself) continue to have issues with rough shifting and gear hunting on Honda/Acura trannies. Similar complaints have been made about GM's 6 speed transmissions.

Again, what model/year Acura/Honda? You say this, but you never really clarify the exact model. There hasn't been a mass complaint about the 04+ transmissions, which has since been fixed by Honda.

A number of people (including myself) continue to have issues with rough shifting and gear hunting on Honda/Acura trannies. Similar complaints have been made about GM's 6 speed transmissions.

No issues here....and somehow nobody has complained to CR either.....weird...

Saturn Outlook and GMC Acadia owners are complaining about GM 6 speed transmissions (info can be found at GM boards) while certain owners of the Honda Fit, Pilot, and Odyssey are complaining about the tranny issues. My parents own a 2006 Odyssey. I've driven it a fair number of times and just like many 1990s automatic Hondas I've driven, this transmission shifts roughly, often hesitates, and likes to gear hunt.

I owned an 04 TL prior to this ES, and the tranny was great. Previous to the 04 TL, I owned an 03 TL-S, 00 TL, 98 Accord V6 and a 96 Accord V6. None had any tranny issues. My Mother still drives a 99 TL wit 70K miles and no tranny issues. My wife's 07 Pilot is great too.

As to the Camry recall, I think it was a TSB. I have not heard of any recalls concerning the Camry/ES tranny.

Saturn Outlook and GMC Acadia owners are complaining about GM 6 speed transmissions (info can be found at GM boards) while certain owners of the Honda Fit, Pilot, and Odyssey are complaining about the tranny issues. My parents own a 2006 Odyssey. I've driven it a fair number of times and just like many 1990s automatic Hondas I've driven, this transmission shifts roughly, often hesitates, and likes to gear hunt.

Our MDX transmission tends to hold first gear a bit longer than I'd like, but it is in no way rough nor does it hesitate or gear hunt - nor does my Sister's 2007 Odyssey......

Maybe you just got a bad one? Can happen - I had a bad Lexus you know :)

edit: now should have been no

His case was probably isolated. My mother's Odyssey doesn't have any rough shifting.

In fact, the only time it's not perfectly smooth is if the transmission hasn't warmed up yet. Then again, most transmission wont shift the way it should until the fluid warms up to ideal temperature.

Again, Honda has addressed this issue long ago. I don't know why it's brought up 3-4 years later on a car that's already on its next generation. It took awhile for Honda to fix the problem. I can only hope Toyota would step up to the plate and offer some kind of additional warranty.

“We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said. The problem caused the transmission to get stuck in second gear or pass through second gear roughly. However, Lentz doesn't feel the flaw will impact Toyota's reputation for quality. “I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Err, wrong answer Lentz... I've driven a couple of ES350 loaners and have found
the transmission to be UNACCEPTABLE.

His case was probably isolated. My mother's Odyssey doesn't have any rough shifting.


Check his posts, if it is not a Toyota product, it is crap.......

Acura's issue now is smaller.

Both of my friends have TSXs and BOTH of them have had their centre console lights blow out (I think it's probably a wire or circuit board failure rather than every single bulb). Both have their warranties extended by Acura of Canada.

Our MDX transmission tends to hold first gear a bit longer than I'd like, but it is in no way rough nor does it hesitate or gear hunt - nor does my Sister's 2007 Odyssey......

Maybe you just got a bad one? Can happen - I had a bad Lexus you know :)

edit: now should have been no

Or maybe this has as much to do with owner preference and driving style as it does with actual transmission problems? Almost every Honda vehicle I have ever driven in my lifetime has had a transmission that hesitates. Coincidence? Bad luck? I doubt that. Is it my driving style? Perhaps.

Likewise, many Toyotas that I have driven ALSO have transmissions that hesitate.

The difference between the myriad of Hondas and Toyotas that I've driven is that the Hondas tend to have somewhat rougher trannies, while the Toyota vehicles generally have had smoother trannies (comparing automatic to automatic; manuals are excluded from this discussion).

Ultimately, I can tolerate (and thus prefer) Toyota vehicles over Hondas primarily because of smoother transmissions and overall smoother powertrains.

His case was probably isolated. My mother's Odyssey doesn't have any rough shifting.

In fact, the only time it's not perfectly smooth is if the transmission hasn't warmed up yet. Then again, most transmission wont shift the way it should until the fluid warms up to ideal temperature.

Again, Honda has addressed this issue long ago. I don't know why it's brought up 3-4 years later on a car that's already on its next generation. It took awhile for Honda to fix the problem. I can only hope Toyota would step up to the plate and offer some kind of additional warranty.

I'm not talking about the auto tranny failures Honda experienced years ago. The problems that some people continue to have (including myself) regarding Honda transmissions haven't been fully addressed yet.

Check his posts, if it is not a Toyota product, it is crap.......

So if it's a Honda or Acura it must be perfect? Give me a break.

Ultimately, the issues I and others have with certain transmissions is much larger than simply automaker preference. While I may have my personal opinion on certain transmissions, there are also objective facts out there.

Whether you like or hate Honda or Toyota, the facts are that Toyota automatic trannies are generally smoother than Honda automatic trannies.

Most cars I've driven with auto trannies seem to have hesistation issues, some to a larger extent than others.

I think the problem is that the computers that control these trannies, as well as the electronic systems connected to the trannies do not respond fast enough. I find this to be especially true of drive-by-wire systems.

Modern transmissions, whether it's a Honda, Toyota, or GM tranny all seem to have some sort of delay or hesitation issue. This is partly tied to drive-by-wire, and the fact that it does not provide instantaneous response. With that said, many older auto trannies with pure mechanical linkages or electronic control also do not provide instantaneous response.

“We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said. The problem caused the transmission to get stuck in second gear or pass through second gear roughly. However, Lentz doesn't feel the flaw will impact Toyota's reputation for quality. “I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Err, wrong answer Lentz... I've driven a couple of ES350 loaners and have found
the transmission to be UNACCEPTABLE.




Agreed. Based on the volume of complaints that were on the ES 350 forum, this was not the right way to introduce a 6-speed into the Camry/ES. Although my ToL test drive found the ES 350 to be pretty much like the previous one, and good for what it does, the problems experienced by actual owners are disturbing.

I'm also surprised that Mr. Lentz would be so frank about it, even if it is a semi mea culpa after the fact. There are quite a few existing owners who would have a bone to pick with them.

In the end I think Toyota better take the decision to slow development down seriously, and fix the quality problems before they seriously dent their reputation.

and 70% of toyota parts are american made and basicly only the tranz is from japan...aint that some ****..:thumbdn::thumbdn::thumbdn:

=doug_999;2996897]Our MDX transmission tends to hold first gear a bit longer than I'd like, but it is in no way rough nor does it hesitate or gear hunt - nor does my Sister's 2007 Odyssey......



Does your MDX transmission have a full-automatic Sport mode where all the shifting is still automatic but more sport-oriented, as opposed to the manu-matic function where you shift yourself by bumping the lever? If so, make sure the lever in conventional DRIVE....that may lower the shift point. The Sport mode will raise the shift points and/or sometimes firm up the shifts as well.

On 2-3, 3-4, and higher-gear upshifts, those upshifts are sometimes delayed by the transmission's computer in cold weather until the fluid temperature warms up (usually to 140 degrees) . I myself don't like this feature.....it is noisy, annoying, and puts more-than-necessary RPM on a cold engine, but that's the way they design a lot of automatics today.

Or maybe this has as much to do with owner preference and driving style as it does with actual transmission problems?

Almost every Honda vehicle I have ever driven in my lifetime has had a transmission that hesitates. Coincidence? Bad luck? I doubt that. Is it my driving style? Perhaps.


ahhh, maybe? And therefore maybe you should not knock the Honda/Acura product as having trans issues because they don't suite your driving style?




Likewise, many Toyotas that I have driven ALSO have transmissions that hesitate.

The difference between the myriad of Hondas and Toyotas that I've driven is that the Hondas tend to have somewhat rougher trannies, while the Toyota vehicles generally have had smoother trannies (comparing automatic to automatic; manuals are excluded from this discussion).

Ultimately, I can tolerate (and thus prefer) Toyota vehicles over Hondas primarily because of smoother transmissions and overall smoother powertrains.


Disagree- you can argue that Toyota/Lexus transmissions suite your style better, but few people will agree that a Toyota motor has the smoothness (sewing machine like quality if you will) that a Honda product has.



So if it's a Honda or Acura it must be perfect? Give me a break.

Ultimately, the issues I and others have with certain transmissions is much larger than simply automaker preference. While I may have my personal opinion on certain transmissions, there are also objective facts out there.

Whether you like or hate Honda or Toyota, the facts are that Toyota automatic trannies are generally smoother than Honda automatic trannies.


To you (and you admitted that above). Alas, you can not argue that your posts tend to knock anything that is not Toyota.

Does your MDX transmission have a full-automatic Sport mode where all the shifting is still automatic but more sport-oriented, as opposed to the manu-matic function where you shift yourself by bumping the lever? If so, make sure the lever in conventional DRIVE....that may lower the shift point. The Sport mode will raise the shift points and/or sometimes firm up the shifts as well.

On 2-3, 3-4, and higher-gear upshifts, those upshifts are sometimes delayed by the transmission's computer in cold weather until the fluid temperature warms up (usually to 140 degrees) . I myself don't like this feature.....it is noisy, annoying, and puts more-than-necessary RPM on a cold engine, but that's the way they design a lot of automatics today.

Our MDX is a 2006 - so no manual/automatic. It holds the 1st gear no matter what the temp. I think it is done for "performance" and nothing else.

Or maybe this has as much to do with owner preference and driving style as it does with actual transmission problems? Almost every Honda vehicle I have ever driven in my lifetime has had a transmission that hesitates. Coincidence? Bad luck? I doubt that. Is it my driving style? Perhaps.

Ultimately, I can tolerate (and thus prefer) Toyota vehicles over Hondas primarily because of smoother transmissions and overall smoother powertrains.



So Honda's transmission is a problem because it's not as smooth as Toyota's transmission? By that logic, all other companies' transmissions have problems since they're not as smooth as Toyota's. If you're feeling roughness in the shifts, that more in line with the transmission/engine mount than the transmission itself. My GS4 shifted hard and rough before I replaced the engine and transmission mounts. New Hondas do not shift rough. You can feel the shift in some case, but it's nowhere near what you call rough, and it's perfectly normal not to have a drivetrain that is as smooth as Toyota's.

Going back to the topic, Toyota can be blamed for the decline in quality. Honda itself was heavily criticized for taking late actions, even though they knew the problem. Mr. Lentz has admitted knowing the problem right from the beginning. I dont see why Toyota shouldn't take the same criticism from the public.

Here is my take:

Every car is not perfect. There are going to be some issues. The difference is how you are handled as a customer.

My dealer and the Lexus customer service phone line have both done nothing for me. There is no fix for the tranny flare, and am told the cold engine knock is normal. My wife knows nothing about cars and asks me what is wrong with my car when she hears it knock....now that is a problem!!

Ok, so Toyota and Lexus know there is a problem...so what are they going to do for me? They don't have a fix and I am driving a car that I am paying a lot of money for that has a flaw. So, now what?

I can believe it, we have seen the complaints on forums. I want us all to put this in perspective though, espeically for Leuxs. We are talking about year after year after year being in the top 3 or 5 or even #1 for quality. Eventually, you are going to have a large issue, especially as volume increases.

What I am happy about is they are serious about fixing the issues and have stated fixing these issues is a top priority. I know that the GS and ES production lines were stopped 5 times in the past 2 years to let expert engineers inspect the cars and find the problem. This went as far as begging USA dealers to send cars back to Japan where the problems were reported.

So yeah, they dropped and might be down there for a couple years but I expect them to pick up the pace.

Kudos to all the winners. :thumbup:

They do not make any effort to address the engine knocking or wind noise in the ES, they simply leave people to deal with it.

Last year in October I asked if my first ES350 engine or it's transmission would be returned to Japan and was told ...NO....by the Lexus Field tech...told slipping in gears 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 was normal and he renamed the defect as though it was supposedly learning and that the engine knocking noise easily heard inside the car was normal and the wind noise was a normal characteristic.

I have seen no effort, not one TSIB on either wind noise issues or engine knocking noise issues for the ES350.

I believe if they had addressed the wind noise issue in the ES rather than make excuses for the obvious defect you would not see the volume of LS owners hacked off over the exact same thing.

I'm curious just what they stopped the ES production line 5 times in 2 years for:uh:

I'm curious just what they stopped the ES production line 5 times in 2 years for:uh:

Bathroom break???:p

“We knew in the very beginning we had a transmission issue with that vehicle,” he said. The problem caused the transmission to get stuck in second gear or pass through second gear roughly. However, Lentz doesn't feel the flaw will impact Toyota's reputation for quality. “I don’t think it’s going to have a long-term impact on the overall view of Toyota as a reliable product,” Lentz said.

Err, wrong answer Lentz... I've driven a couple of ES350 loaners and have found
the transmission to be UNACCEPTABLE.




Amen!! Toyota chose to continue producing the Camry V6 instead of stopping production and fixing it. What is more important?? $$ or customer satisfaction? They chose $$ and now they pay the price.

So Honda's transmission is a problem because it's not as smooth as Toyota's transmission? By that logic, all other companies' transmissions have problems since they're not as smooth as Toyota's. If you're feeling roughness in the shifts, that more in line with the transmission/engine mount than the transmission itself. My GS4 shifted hard and rough before I replaced the engine and transmission mounts. New Hondas do not shift rough. You can feel the shift in some case, but it's nowhere near what you call rough, and it's perfectly normal not to have a drivetrain that is as smooth as Toyota's.

.

Correct. Honda automatics....particularly the Accord's.....used to have more or less normal bump-shifts. That is no longer the case. New Honda automatics are generally as smooth as Toyota's, at least in full-automatic mode.

So Honda's transmission is a problem because it's not as smooth as Toyota's transmission? By that logic, all other companies' transmissions have problems since they're not as smooth as Toyota's. If you're feeling roughness in the shifts, that more in line with the transmission/engine mount than the transmission itself. My GS4 shifted hard and rough before I replaced the engine and transmission mounts. New Hondas do not shift rough. You can feel the shift in some case, but it's nowhere near what you call rough, and it's perfectly normal not to have a drivetrain that is as smooth as Toyota's.

Going back to the topic, Toyota can be blamed for the decline in quality. Honda itself was heavily criticized for taking late actions, even though they knew the problem. Mr. Lentz has admitted knowing the problem right from the beginning. I dont see why Toyota shouldn't take the same criticism from the public.

Several people in this thread are criticizing Toyota as a whole simply because of the action of their local dealers. They are also criticizing Toyota quality as a whole due to some transmission quirks/problems, quirks and problems which other automakers have with their transmissions as well. Is it fair to criticize Toyota yet not other automakers?

FYI, in the media Honda was rarely criticized for the automatic transmission fiasco of a few years ago with all those auto trannies experiencing failures. Yet Toyota is being criticized more for a less severe problem. As Honda gets bigger, they will begin to recieve more criticism just like Toyota is. Even if quality remains high, Toyota it seems will continue to get criticized more and more simply because their success has made them a target.

MD350 and ES350Bob, what you mention is the fault of your dealers, not of Toyota as a whole. Fact is, many people have gotten their engines and their transmissions replaced in their Camrys and their ES350s. Toyota is more than willing to take good care of it's customers; the problem is that some dealerships aren't willing to do the same.

There was a recent article saying how Toyota would punish or even boot out certain Toyota/Lexus dealers that weren't performing in terms of customer care and service.

Several people in this thread are criticizing Toyota as a whole simply because of the action of their local dealers. They are also criticizing Toyota quality as a whole due to some transmission quirks/problems, quirks and problems which other automakers have with their transmissions as well. Is it fair to criticize Toyota yet not other automakers?

FYI, in the media Honda was rarely criticized for the automatic transmission fiasco of a few years ago with all those auto trannies experiencing failures. Yet Toyota is being criticized more for a less severe problem. As Honda gets bigger, they will begin to recieve more criticism just like Toyota is. Even if quality remains high, Toyota it seems will continue to get criticized more and more simply because their success has made them a target.

MD350 and ES350Bob, what you mention is the fault of your dealers, not of Toyota as a whole. Fact is, many people have gotten their engines and their transmissions replaced in their Camrys and their ES350s. Toyota is more than willing to take good care of it's customers; the problem is that some dealerships aren't willing to do the same.

There was a recent article saying how Toyota would punish or even boot out certain Toyota/Lexus dealers that weren't performing in terms of customer care and service.

You have very valid points. I guess when it happens to your own car, it makes you angry. I am frustrated and all I want is the car fixed. There is no fix to date, and that is what is frustrating. Replacing the tranny and/or performing flash updates have proven NOT to fix the flare issue in most customer's cars.

So, I live with it. But, my last 5 Honda/Acura purchases and my wife's current Pilot have all been fantastic to me. The Sienna and the ES have been a pain in my rear. So, you can understand why I am angry at Toyota and Lexus.

Believe me, if you had an ES with this issue, I am sure you would not be a happy camper.

FYI, in the media Honda was rarely criticized for the automatic transmission fiasco of a few years ago with all those auto trannies experiencing failures. Yet Toyota is being criticized more for a less severe problem. As Honda gets bigger, they will begin to recieve more criticism just like Toyota is. Even if quality remains high, Toyota it seems will continue to get criticized more and more simply because their success has made them a target.



One small difference is the Honda transmission in question used to work flawlessly until it broke. This could have been as early as 20K miles, or even past 80K miles. I still have some Tl friend's with original transmissions with no problems at this time. These are TL-S as well. Now, some of the Toyota transmission may not all actually outright break, but many of them don't work right and have issues from day 1 that still has never been resolved. The transmission issue on my 04 RX330 has still never been resolved. All the different TSIB's and transmission updates have helped a little, but the problem is still there. Sure, the car is drivable and the transmission works, but it is annoying as heck.

I may be totally different from others, but I rather have a transmission that I know will work flawlessly for 50K miles and then break, than to have one that last 200K miles but have annoying issues throughout its lifetime.

As for the harsh 1-2 shift in the Honda. I give you that. Honda used to always have a pretty hard 1-2 shift in their automatics. Nothing major like dumping a manual clutch, but much firmer or harder than Toyota. I don't consider that a flaw though. Just a design choice. That never did bother me since I'm more used to sporty cars, but I can see others questioning that trait. mmarshall is right though. Of late the Honda trans are shifting pretty darn smooth.

If Toyota ever does fix the Camry/ES tranny, I just hop they also fix whatever tranny they will use for the new redesigned RX.

Several people in this thread are criticizing Toyota as a whole simply because of the action of their local dealers. They are also criticizing Toyota quality as a whole due to some transmission quirks/problems, quirks and problems which other automakers have with their transmissions as well. Is it fair to criticize Toyota yet not other automakers?


As this thread seems to not want to die and it has given us a chance to air issues and think about it a little bit more I will say that yes it is fair to criticize Toyota and not other manufacturers. Why? Because I have come to expect more from Toyota and that is what makes this slide something that Toyota/Lexus would do well to not ignore. If someone puts a post up about a bimmer engine grenading or iDrive horror story or have mercedes electronics that are now their own life form it wouldn't make much impact on me. But Toyota/Lexus sliding out of the position that, let's admit it, they have had a lock on, is not a good sign. If I want marvelous handling and steering and an infuriating bit of technotrash iDrive system, I will get a bimmer. If I want big snob appeal and huge horsepower I will get a MBZ or AMG. Just examples, please don't get sidetracked by the point I am making. Lexus doesn't have inspiring handling. Doesn't have anywhere near class leading performance. And they don't seem very interested in doing much about it. But what I do expect is to have the best reliability out there and, as has been pointed out, look at some of the boards about recent models here to review the problems people are seeing with increasing frequency. When you take reliability out of the equation, the Lexus purchase decision becomes a lot less compelling.

Two other points, it is the worst form of lunacy and GMthink to gloss over your own problems as a car manufacturer by saying other people have as many or more problems. That is the tactic used by a lot of people but it has not been necessary for Toyota/Lexus in regard to reliability. Until now. And the second point does have to relate to other car manufacturers. I have to give credit where credit is due to Honda/Acura for their moves in the rankings. I may not be shopping for models that they have but moving to the top in these things, like Buick for an American mfr, is an accomplishment. They don't need people on the Internet to talk up their cars, their owners are reaping the benefits of their reliability. Good for them.

What I find interesting is that all the articles I have read have focused on Toyota's 5th place ranking w/ only a mention of Honda being #1. I am sure Toyota is still a very reliable brand, it is just a victim of its own stellar past reputation. Kinda like if Britney Spears shows up w/ anything less than a 6 pack, she is considered fat. Anyhoo - a new article:

Is Toyota in Trouble? (http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Auto_News/Is_Toyota_in_Trouble.S173.A13529.html?DID=RSS)
Like millions of Americans, Suzanne Oshry is a loyal Toyota owner. Or at least she has been.

Earlier this year, Oshry purchased the latest in a string of Camry sedans from Miller Toyota of Culver City, Calif., but she didn't even make it home before she noticed something seriously wrong with the way the car rode and handled. Her subsequent struggle to get the problem resolved has left Oshry with more than a sour taste in her mouth.

While her problem is more the exception than the norm, Oshry's experience is being repeated with unexpected frequency around the U.S. And so, ironically, even as the Japanese maker surges to the number-two spot in the American market, it is suffering what one influential publication has dubbed "cracks in its armor." Quality problems, recalls, and rising incentives could reverse what, until recently, seemed Toyota's irreversible momentum.

For Suzanne Oshry, the problem with her Camry - a set of improperly installed tires - was eventually resolved, but only by going to another dealer. Indeed, repeated efforts to get Miller Toyota, or the factory, to assist were rebuffed until TheCarConnection.com became involved. By then, said the Southern California housewife, it was too late.

"There (is) no way I would ever do business with Miller again and would also dissuade anyone I knew interested in acquiring a Toyota from using that particular dealership." More disconcerting, at least for Toyota, Oshry adds that, "my loyalty to their brand has been lessened."

Even the best brands will occasional make a mistake, and anger a customer. But over the years, Toyota's reputation and market share has grown based on a reputation for bulletproof products that give owners little reason to get upset. Suddenly, more consumers find themselves experiencing problems, often with Toyota's best-known and normally most reliable models.

Nagging issues with the latest version of the mid-size Camry, the new full-size Tundra pickup, and the all-wheel-drive version of the maker's highline Lexus GS sedan, led the highly influential Consumer Reports magazine to issue a stern rebuke. Declaring "Toyota is showing cracks in its armor," the magazine has pulled those three models from its "Recommended" list, a sought-after rating that Toyota and Lexus products have normally won automatically.

It needs be noted that Toyota still produced 17 of the 39 most reliable vehicles in the Consumer Reports survey, but, it finished overall in fifth place. "To see one of the premium manufacturers have three vehicles fall below average in reliability is a big concern," said David Champion, director of auto testing for the magazine. "They've always been average or better with all their products up to this point."

Recalls mounting

The non-profit publication isn't the only one to question Toyota's quality. The most recent Initial Quality Survey, from J.D. Power & Associates, showed the Japanese giant nudged aside by its Asian rival, Honda, and other recent quality studies have found several U.S. brands, including General Motors' Buick, besting Toyota.

A number of huge recalls over the last three years, have further tarnished Toyota's reputation for building cars, trucks and crossovers with the reliability of the best appliances. That may be one reason why the automaker, despite record U.S. market share, is working a little bit harder to complete every sale.

While conventional wisdom would suggest that Toyota doesn't need to use rebates and other giveaways, the truth is that the maker's incentives have increased by roughly 250 percent over the past three years. In September, the average Toyota giveback was only marginally less than the struggling General Motors, $3752 per vehicle versus $4326 at GM. In September 2004, the U.S. maker laid out $5168 in incentives compared with $1506 at Toyota, according to CNW Marketing, an automotive research firm.

At GM, it should be noted, "They need incentives just to get customers in the door," explains CNW President Art Spinella, while Toyota showrooms are traditionally busy. But, he adds, "It's becoming harder (for Toyota) to close a sale" without sweetening the deal. Much of that is offered in the form of "dealer cash," or money a retailer can use to close a deal, rather than the highly publicized rebates Detroit is famous for.

Toyota's incentives vary widely, from model to model. The new Tundra has some of the biggest numbers, reflecting its slower-than-expected launch.

Since the mid-1980s, when Japanese makers came to dominate the passenger car market, Detroit has focused most of its attention on light trucks. While Japanese makers have steadily gained ground in the SUV and crossover segments, they've repeatedly failed to crack the full-size pickup market, dominated by the likes of Ford's F-150 and Chevrolet's Silverado. But that was supposed to change with last year's launch of the new Tundra.

The new model is bigger and more powerful than ever, with more variants aimed at distinctly different sets of pickup buyers. Toyota even built a new assembly plant in San Antonio, Texas, the heart of U.S. pickup country. But the plant was beset with problems, running well over budget and rolling out vehicles with a series of snags, including a reported engine defect.

There have been numerous demands for a recall of the V-8-powered Tundra, which is now on Consumer Reports' "Least Reliable" list. But for the moment, "We're still investigating that issue," and have not made a decision on whether to recall the truck, said Toyota's John Hanson. The automaker's spokesman insisted that overall, Toyota has a lot to be proud about, but he acknowledged, "We didn't do as well as we did last year," and are in the process of trying to get to the heart of the worsening quality issue.

What's the problem?

Exactly what's wrong isn't clear. And it seems like every industry expert has a differing opinion. In some cases, a single defective part can lead to the recall of more than a million vehicles, as happened two years ago. But there's little doubt that the mounting problems are linked to Toyota's rapid expansion, particular in the U.S. marketplace. It has not only pushed past perennial number three automaker Chrysler but in recent months, Toyota has also been nudging aside the seriously wounded Ford for the number-two position.

To get there, the Japanese maker has been rapidly expanding its North American production base, with factories like the one in Texas. With the exception of its Japanese-made Lexus brand, the vast majority of Toyota products sold in the States now are built in the U.S. or Canada.

"Part of the problem," suggested one senior company executive, asking not to be named, "is that we're running out of sensei." The Japanese term refers to specially-trained team leaders who serve as a sort of manufacturing disciple, moving from well-established plants to newer facilities, in order to ensure the smooth transfer of the vaunted Toyota manufacturing system.

On top of all that, Toyota has begun to experience an unexpected and unprecedented series of defections at its senior ranks, including its top American executive, Jim Press, who is now the number two at Chrysler; Deborah Meyer, who was a top marketing manager; and Jim Farley, seen by many as a fast-rising star at Scion and Lexus. The losses have almost certainly distracted management attention.

Further complicating matters, Toyota has been rapidly expanding its model lineup, adding new trucks, like the Tundra, crossovers, hybrid-electric vehicles, all-wheel-drive luxury sedans and more, each creating new opportunities for things to go wrong.

The problem is clearly not limited to the U.S. At the same time Consumer Reports took Toyota to task, the automaker was announcing the recall of 470,000 vehicles sold in Japan for problems including defective engines, steering and fuel pumps.

Soon after taking the helm at Toyota two years ago, President Katsuaki Watanabe was forced to go onto television and apologize for the way the company had handled some serious quality issues. The executive responded with the Customer First program, assembling every senior engineer in the company and demanding that they come up with ways to get their arms around the problem.

Even though it has one of the fastest R&D operations in the business, lead times in the auto industry are long, and the first product developed under Customer First is just now hitting market. To ensure things go right with the 2008 Highlander SUV, Toyota tacked on an extra 30 days to the development process, mostly to search out unseen gremlins.

Whether Customer First resolves matters remains to be seen, but spokesman Hanson says, "We feel this pilot program will be the template for everything that comes after."

Things gone right?

No matter now good a manufacturer gets, some things invariably go wrong. According to one senior Toyota official, the damage to Suzanne Oshry's tires could have taken place "in nearly a dozen different locations" between the supplier and the dealer. But those retailers have often been cited as one of the weakest links in the entire Toyota system.

Toyota has traditionally limited the number of retail outlets, good news for dealers who sell, on average, several times more vehicles per store than even the best of their Big Three rivals. But that also has meant that their staff "are little more than order takers, rather than salesmen," asserts analyst Spinella. And numerous studies, including the J.D. Power Dealer Satisfaction Index, show Toyota dealers ranking low in terms of addressing customer problems.

As TheCarConnection.com first reported in June, Toyota is preparing a new program, dubbed Everything Matters Exponentially, or EM2, to deal with snags on the service side. "The company is trying to address the entire sales and service experience (because) if we really want to keep growing, we have to do it by increasing customer loyalty," explained Jack Hollis, the corporate manager who oversaw the initial development of EM2.

The work in progress didn't seem to help Oshry, which only underscores the danger Toyota faces. For nearly two decades, the Japanese maker has built a reputation for doing the right thing: building reliable, if somewhat bland, products, and then standing behind its customer. Word-of-mouth, as much as all its corporate ad campaigns, have turned Toyota into the force to be reckoned with in the U.S. market. But if the current spate of problems continues, the automaker's momentum could reverse.

Has that process already begun? The automaker's U.S. sales dipped a slight 0.6 percent in September. But it's easy to read too much into those numbers, especially when compared to the all-time record the maker set a year ago, cautions analyst Spinella.

But even so, he insists that, "Frankly, this is the downside of the slope for them. If they're unable to fix this, in five years, I think their position in the U.S. could resemble GM's, with shrinking market share."

im not suprised...it seems alot of 2000-2006 toyotas are not as well made. for example, i know a couple people who owned corollas and had major problems. also my friend owns a 04 camry and that thing has major rattles, loud engine noise, etc. my moms 05 highlander also seems cheap to me, the transmission loves to shift when it doesnt need to, and it gets horrible mpg.

imo, i think honda and acura are producing better cars on both engine and interior standards.

I don't know of any company that has experienced large sales growth that has not experience quality problems. Toyota is following GM's path if you look back in time a few decades.

All through our history, you can look back and see companies, regardless of industry have issues as they grow.

You cannot be number in sales and number one in quality. You become the frozen dinners of cars and conseqently, your consumers become bored and notice the bland flavors. Such is life.

One reason Apple is so successful is because