http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Acura/concepts/advanced_sports_car/final/acurasportscon_main.jpg
Honda confirms NSX for 2010

Posted on Wednesday 19 December 2007


Honda has recently confirmed speculation that its next-gen Acura NSX will arrive over a year later than the expected 2008-2009 timeframe earlier suggested by CEO Takeo Fukui. The news comes after president of Honda America Tetsuo Iwamura let slip that the car will arrive in 2010 and said “we are developing it without any delay.”

A report from Ward’s Auto suggests that the U.S. could be the first market to receive the sports car ahead of its home market Japan. “In case of the introduction order, at this moment I can’t tell, but the U.S., you know, has a majority of the (Acura) customers – that (is something) you have to think about,” Iwamura was quoted as saying.

So far little is known about the NSX, with a credible concept yet to be released. Honda did unveil the Acura Advanced Sports Car Concept (pictured) in Detroit earlier this year and a production version was expected for Tokyo, but this was not to be as the concept was called for a redesign. What is known is that it will feature an all new V10 and is expected to be more of a luxury GT than the high-tech supercar the previous model was. via motorauthority

nice, just bring the car now! work on it and make it happen.

so i guess at least it will go against the lf-a?

suggested by CEO Takeo Fukui.

Is there anyway to say his name in a "politically correct" way?

GTR and LF-A wouldve already stolen its thunder by 2010, unless the NSX happens to be better

Is there anyway to say his name in a "politically correct" way?

**** YOUUU

http://starbulletin.com/2002/07/30/features/artb.jpg

we dont want Luxury GT. We want a supercar!

Another future NSX rumor....yawn.....

Still total vaporware - I'm not going to get my hopes up until I see it.

As long as the engine isn't in the front, they can do whatever they want to it.

I believe theyve stated it will not be mid engined, maybe front engine mid mounted

we dont want Luxury GT. We want a supercar!

Brand image for Acura is luxury sport cars. The old NSX was a Honda with a Acura badge for stateside sales. I think if the CEO wanted to confirm that will be a NSX in the near future, atleast give us some hope by showing us how it would look. Ill take a napkin drawing or a cg model over a front engine mounted model.

As long as the engine isn't in the front, they can do whatever they want to it.

Highly doubt the successor will be mid-engine.

oh boy, if they do so its going to be a big flop.

they are raping it of its exoticness!!

Highly doubt the successor will be mid-engine.

oh boy, if they do so its going to be a big flop.

they are raping it of its exoticness!!

From an engineering/car enthusiast's perspective, the ol' NSX was a marvel.
From a marketing/sales perspective, the ol' NSX was a huge flop.

Especially in the US, the NSX was marketed as a refined luxurious sports car. When in reality it should have been a gutted purebred track car (what is the point of a lightweight all aluminum chassis/block if you're going to add the same amount of weight in leather and power everything?). I think president Fcuk-u hinting that the importance of the American market only supports a future Acura badged FR GT car.

Is there anyway to say his name in a "politically correct" way?

it's mostly HUkui, not FUkui... Japanese phonetics don't include the "F" sound. (if i recall my highschool japanese class correctly)


back on topic, have they even chosen a final design to go with??

Still total vaporware - I'm not going to get my hopes up until I see it.
True dat'!

There isn't even any word or pic regarding design or engine or such.

Honda wants to make the NSX magically reappear from an oblivion within a year. It's near 2008, and if the car is to be released in 2010, it means that the car must be ready within approx 18 months...

WIth the GT-R here, the LF-A coming, hell the ZR1 just dropped, and all the sports cars out, this news is now nothing and they should just keep it to themselves.

Sad, they had the world on its ears 5 years ago and today, no one really cares

I hope its back to a mid engine car and not that crap they showed the world over the summer that had Honda and NSX fans barfing.

Another future NSX rumor....yawn.....

:agree::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:

If I had a dollar for every NSX rumor I'd be DRIVING one.:D

Next NSX should've been HSC concept + V10 engine

Another vote for the HSC

http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2004/3/17/3040317.001/1001big.jpg
http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2004/3/17/3040317.001/1009big.jpg

but like this:

http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/4723blinghsc1.jpg
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/758/4723hsc_chop.jpg

Wishful thinking I'm sure...

Another vote for the HSC

http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2004/3/17/3040317.001/1001big.jpg
http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2004/3/17/3040317.001/1009big.jpg

but like this:

http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/4723blinghsc1.jpg
http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/758/4723hsc_chop.jpg

Wishful thinking I'm sure...

Now thats a way to go for the NSX. What stopped Honda from using that? :sad:

Because Soichiro Honda passed away and because Shigeru Uehara (chief engineer, also in charge of the S2000) no longer works for Honda due to differences in opinion over the direction of these cars. That's why both the NSX and S2000 are dying...

audi already beat honda to the NSX, its called the R8

audi already beat honda to the NSX, its called the R8
Mr. Na Guy en,
I suppose the Ferrari already beat Audi with the F430... and so on...
The NSX is a light weight, high revving, Rear drive MR platform with a then MSRP of ~$58,000, the R8 is a Quattro (albeit highly rear bias) Lambo Gallardo with a RS4 V8 with a MSRP of $106,000. HOW DO THEY COMPARE?

The NSX is a light weight, high revving, Rear drive MR platform with a then MSRP of ~$58,000, the R8 is a Quattro (albeit highly rear bias) Lambo Gallardo with a RS4 V8 with a MSRP of $106,000. HOW DO THEY COMPARE?

Well first off, we're talking about the new NSX, not the old one. Besides that, the old NSX MSRP was 90k at the end of its life cycle. Also, people have been batting around 4WD on the new NSX/ASSC for years, even as a mid-engine layout. Even when the new NSX was rumored to be a hybrid, some hypothesized it would use a 3.5L MR layout similar to the current NSX while using the electric motor to drive the front wheels.

Mr. Na Guy en,
I suppose the Ferrari already beat Audi with the F430... and so on...
The NSX is a light weight, high revving, Rear drive MR platform with a then MSRP of ~$58,000, the R8 is a Quattro (albeit highly rear bias) Lambo Gallardo with a RS4 V8 with a MSRP of $106,000. HOW DO THEY COMPARE?

The last NSXs in America were over $90,000....Audi has beat Honda to the punch, period.
The R8 is high revving, it uses the RS4 high revving V-8...

I do agree the NSX was RWD so it will just be more "pure" than teh R8 but the R8 has beat the glorious 911 in a couple reviews, no small feat!:thumbup:

http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Acura/concepts/advanced_sports_car/final/acurasportscon_main.jpg


I don't get it. They're still going with this concept they unveiled in Detroit?

http://jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2007/02/Acura-Advanced-Sports-Car-Concept.jpg

When I was in Detroit this year during the IS-F World Premier, the car went unnoticed by passer byers during the Press Days. That concept was a flop more than a hit in my opinion.

Because Soichiro Honda passed away and because Shigeru Uehara (chief engineer, also in charge of the S2000) no longer works for Honda due to differences in opinion over the direction of these cars. That's why both the NSX and S2000 are dying...


Amen to that. A lot of old school Honda fans, and NSX fans know the importance of Soichiro and Uehara. Without them Honda is not the same Honda we all grew up with. Too me it is so obvious there was a major change in direction after Soichiro died with what came out of Honda in the mid 90s. I'm sure there was already a few years projected plan, thus the big change in direction a few years after he died, but it was pretty clear too me.

I don't get it. They're still going with this concept they unveiled in Detroit?

Apparently after that concept bombed Acura/Honda went back to the drawing board, which caused the delay.

Rumor mill also has it that they are going back to mid instead of front engine due to negative comments.

Finally: they really should keep the NSX name for a supercar & name what they are making now something else. Why move it downmarket? I understand that they need something to compete w/ all the new vehicles in that segment but they also need something up where the NSX was to help w/ brand image.

No, they do have the "Fu" phoneme. It sounds just like the 'fu' in 'to-fu'.

So Fukui is probably pronounced like 'foo koo'? :p

So Fukui is probably pronounced like 'foo koo'? :p
If you've seen Iron Chef (Japanese version), they pronounced it "fu-kwi ", not really sure if it's the proper Japanese pronunctiation though . . .

**** YOUUU

http://starbulletin.com/2002/07/30/features/artb.jpg

F O O K MI and F O O K YOO:D

If it's anything like the HSC....bring it on!
If it's anything like the 1st picture, forget it.:thumbdn:

Still total vaporware - I'm not going to get my hopes up until I see it.

Reminded me of this

Apparently after that concept bombed Acura/Honda went back to the drawing board, which caused the delay.

Rumor mill also has it that they are going back to mid instead of front engine due to negative comments.

Finally: they really should keep the NSX name for a supercar & name what they are making now something else. Why move it downmarket? I understand that they need something to compete w/ all the new vehicles in that segment but they also need something up where the NSX was to help w/ brand image.

It would be nice to stay true to it's roots. Let's hope they don't design it like they have been doing the rest of the Honda line lately.

Okay all the three-letter/number super cars from all the Japanese automakers are claimed for:

Nissan GT-R(production level)
Lexus LF-A(conceptual level)
Lexus IS-F(production level)
Honda/Acura NSX(conceptual level)
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution also known as EVO(production level)
Subaru Impreza WRX STI or just STI(production level)
Mazda RX-7(No plan of production yet)

Wait a minute, Mazda still hasn't confirmed a new generation of RX-7, but I am sure they are working on it. I have seen enough of those Italian and German fast cars, now it is the Japanese's turn.

Fu-Ku-EE...

Bingo, ore wa na demo wakaru ;)

Pretty much except you are missing the 'i' which is pronounced as a 'long E'.

Fu-Ku-EE


But that's pronounced more Foo-Koo-Ee, right? I interpret what you wrote a little different. :D

Next Generation NXS to Compete Directly w/ Ferrari on Price & Performance (http://www.motorauthority.com/news/supercars/honda-nsx-to-compete-directly-with-lamborghini-and-ferrari-on-price-performance/)
Honda’s NSX replacement has had several false starts, with the company scrapping the car’s design after the public’s largely negative response to its Acura Advanced Sports Car Concept, shown at 2007’s Detroit Auto Show. Beyond the styling difficulties, ensuring the car will compete successfully with Lexus’s LF-A, Nissan’s GT-R, and Ferrari and Lamborghini’s sport-focused offerings is also taking time. But the company is sure it will do so, and the target date is 2010.

Speaking with MotorAuthority, Acura spokesman Mike Spencer confirmed several details of the upcoming NSX replacement. The car will definitely be powered by a V10 engine, and it will be equipped with the company’s SH-AWD system. There has been some discussion of a possible four-wheel steering system (4WS) for the NSX replacement, but Spencer suggested the SH-AWD system would achieve most of the benefits of 4WS without the added complexity.

The original NSX was a mid-engine, rear-wheel drive V6-powered car, so the replacement will share little in common with it from a technical point of view. The replacement is also unlikely to share the NSX name - Spencer referred to it only as the ‘NSX replacement.’

Pricing of the NSX replacement will also be a bit different than the original. The low price of the NSX - $60,000 in the U.S. on its 1990 debut, rising to just below $100,000 by the end of its model run in 2005 - will no longer be so low, with pricing to compete with its performance rivals from Ferrari and Lamborghini.

The NSX replacement’s primary competition at Ferrari and Lamborghini will come most likely in the form of the F430 and Gallardo, respectively. Both start around $180,000, and according to Spencer, current exchange rates between the Yen and the U.S. Dollar mean the NSX replacement will be priced in line with that figure.

Pricing the NSX’s replacement at effectively double the price of the last model means Honda/Acura is positioning the car as a direct competitor to Europe’s elite supercars - not a budget alternative.

Nissan’s GT-R is priced to fit into the latter category, although its 2+2 seating configuration and hefty dimensions take it out of direct competition with lightweight two-seaters anyway. Lexus’s LF-A supercar is perhaps a more direct competitor for the NSX replacement and its European counterparts, and rumors of its pricing range from just over $100,000 to nearer the $170,000 mark, tending to confirm that Nissan’s GT-R isn’t the LF-A’s target, either.

When it debuted in 1990, Honda’s NSX was hailed by many as one of the best performance cars ever to come out of Japan, and it equaled several of the established European sports cars of the day, including Ferrari’s 348. Its use of high-tech materials and design would set the standard for the next decade.

Although the original car’s 5.2 second 0-60mph time and 13.3 second quarter-mile time would qualify it more as a sports car than a supercar by today’s standards - Nissan’s latest 350Z posts similar numbers, and the standard Corvette coupe beats both figures by at least 0.4 seconds - the updated replacement is shaping up to be a purebred supercar, with a price to match.

$180k for a front engine, RWD Honda grand touring coupe. Where do I sign up? :rolleyes:

^ Agreed. Frong engine = Bad idea. NSX needs Mid or rear engine. Keep the weight down to 3050 lbs. Need 6 or 7 speed SMG. Bring the HSC concept design to reality. The NSX will then succeed, I strongly believe.:thumbup:

Acura managment hasn't a clue.
1. They say they revise the NSX concept but bring us that grill still on the new RL and TSX.
2. Acura is not global and I don't think it will be global in time for this cars debut. So will it be a Honda NSX there and Acura NSX here. Which leads to point 3
3. No one buys expensive Hondas overseas and no one buys expensive Acuras in America. Who the HELL is planning the business case for this? They can barely pass the 40k mark with sales and fail at the 50k mark.
4. The NSXPrime guys continue to be pissed at these efforts, press releases and plans. How can Honda crap on one of the best groups of enthusiasts around?
5. Have they not seen the Audi R8?
6. So Acura will have the 28k TSX, cannot give away a 50k RL and then try to sell an 180k supercar.

Its not that hard. Just take the NSX forumla and make it better. Notice how Porsche just evolves the 911. THe NSX just needed so TLC, not a clean sheet of paper.

And, all I want is 350 hp and 320 ft/lb torque on this beautiful chassie and watch this thing beating the 500 hp muscle car in the track.

I - Don't - Want - High - Horsepower - On - This - Thing.


You want high hp go get a muscle car.

And, all I want is 350 hp and 320 ft/lb torque on this beautiful chassie and watch this thing beating the 500 hp muscle car in the track.

I - Don't - Want - High - Horsepower - On - This - Thing.


You want high hp go get a muscle car.

Exactly. Hell the NSX-R won EVO's car of the year!!! THe NSX like the 911, just needed some evolving. Keep it light, rear engine with more power. The NSX did not age poorly, even in 2002, it looked good, handled with the best of them, had a good interior and had enough power. ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MAKE A NEW NSX IN THE MOLD OF THE OLD ONE, HOW HARD IS THAT?

I swear the SUV guys are running Honda/Acura and telling them how to style their cars and what to put in them.:sad:

^ +1. Amen. Well said.:)

Exactly. Hell the NSX-R won EVO's car of the year!!! THe NSX like the 911, just needed some evolving. Keep it light, rear engine with more power. The NSX did not age poorly, even in 2002, it looked good, handled with the best of them, had a good interior and had enough power. ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MAKE A NEW NSX IN THE MOLD OF THE OLD ONE, HOW HARD IS THAT?

I swear the SUV guys are running Honda/Acura and telling them how to style their cars and what to put in them.:sad:

I could not have said it any better myself.

$180k for a front engine, RWD Honda grand touring coupe. Where do I sign up? :rolleyes:

To be fair, I assume its supposed to be an Acura over here, and globally, though I have to agree with Mike's assessment on Acura's global stature.

And we know nothing about the car, it might be a full on super car, it might be not; no one said it was going to be a grand tourer. I don't see how this is any different than a front engine, RWD Lexus.

You guys say you want a new NSX in the mold of the old one but the fact is that no one bought it. I'm not saying it was a bad car; I love the old NSX, I love it to this day. But the people with the kind of money to buy cars like that don't want to blow it on a 6-cylinder engine low horsepower car. They want to blow it on a faster, bigger engined car. It's not about how good the car itself is, its about perception. A lot of you will mention the Porsche 911; I'm sorry but like it or not, the NSX just doesn't have the 911's cachet and *name*. Again, I know it sucks. I love the NSX. And I do wish they would just make something like the HSC concept; that car was perfect, and Honda is all about light weight, low HP brilliant handling sports cars. But I just don't think there is a business case for another 90k 6-cylinder mid engine super car for Honda/Acura.

Why they can't go the R8 route and make a brilliant V8-powered mid engine sports car for around 100k is beyond me though. Would you seriously consider a 6 cyl 350 hp NSX for the same price as the V8 420 hp Audi R8? I couldn't, but a 400 hp 8 cyl NSX would certainly be more appealing, at the 100k mark. Could be just the image boost that Acura DESPERATELY needs.

Making this car front engine is a huge mistake imo but it worked for GTR, seems to be working for LF-A, maybe there's a method to this madness.

This is still not official information but speculations aside from Honda confirming the NSX for 2010. Pricing is probrably not set yet. 180K is too high though. 180K is too high for any Japanese or American sports car. At that price people will only spend that much if it is European and it is a bad idea for Acura or Lexus to price their sports/GT cars that high, they don't have the name or image to sell cars like that no matter how good they are at those prices and will only attract a very small number of Lexus or Acura enthusiasts. At 180K most people just buy on brand/prestige alone and don't really care if it will be reliable or get decent gas mileage and they want Italian, German, and British high end names. For the Acura or Lexus to even be considered to be sold at that price they would have to offer revolutionary performance and drop dead gorgeous looks inside and out and simply beat everything in their price class and over and still be considered bargains at their price point which sounds very difficult.

I think the LFA and NSX replacement will be good for the brands and help their image but they must be done right and not priced too high. They should really cost around 105-115K. Any higher and they are going to be very tough sells and will get critisized for being way too high.

I still don't see why Acura can't come out with this front engined high performance v10 performance lux GT that competes with Aston Martins, LFA, Front engined Porsche coupe, Ferrari 599, M6, etc and also offer a true mid engine NSX replacement with a mid engine v8 or optional v10 that directly competes with mid engine sports cars like th R8, F430, Gallardo, Lotus Espirit, etc. Why do they have to only make 1 car to compete with so many other types of cars when it really can't. There was nothing wrong the original NSX formula, it just needed to build up a following to sell in good numbers and it has built up a following. All it needed was more hp and more options. It was a mistake to totally change the formula of the original NSX and I hope Honda has not completely abondoned the idea of a true mid engined NSX replacement in the future.

This is still not official information but speculations aside from Honda confirming the NSX for 2010. Pricing is probrably not set yet. 180K is too high though. 180K is too high for any Japanese or American sports car. At that price people will only spend that much if it is European and it is a bad idea for Acura or Lexus to price their sports/GT cars that high, they don't have the name or image to sell cars like that no matter how good they are at those prices and will only attract a very small number of Lexus or Acura enthusiasts. At 180K most people just buy on brand/prestige alone and don't really care if it will be reliable or get decent gas mileage and they want Italian, German, and British high end names. For the Acura or Lexus to even be considered to be sold at that price they would have to offer revolutionary performance and drop dead gorgeous looks inside and out and simply beat everything in their price class and over and still be considered bargains at their price point which sounds very difficult.

I think the LFA and NSX replacement will be good for the brands and help their image but they must be done right and not priced too high. They should really cost around 105-115K. Any higher and they are going to be very tough sells and will get critisized for being way too high.

I still don't see why Acura can't come out with this front engined high performance v10 performance lux GT that competes with Aston Martins, LFA, Front engined Porsche coupe, Ferrari 599, M6, etc and also offer a true mid engine NSX replacement with a mid engine v8 or optional v10 that directly competes with mid engine sports cars like th R8, F430, Gallardo, Lotus Espirit, etc. Why do they have to only make 1 car to compete with so many other types of cars when it really can't. There was nothing wrong the original NSX formula, it just needed to build up a following to sell in good numbers and it has built up a following. All it needed was more hp and more options. It was a mistake to totally change the formula of the original NSX and I hope Honda has not completely abondoned the idea of a true mid engined NSX replacement in the future.


While LExus and Acura are both from Japan, you simply cannot compare the 2 brands, they are on total opposite ends of the spectrum. Lexus is a tier 1 brand and #92 on the most known brands in the world. Acura was just found to be lowest in the United States with branding.

I am not going to go further its obvious. Lexus has proven it CAN sell a 100k sedan, which is simply territory reserved for Europe. LS 600h L sales are 300% past projections. The LF-A is the next step to move Lexus further upward in a LOOOOOOONNG 20 year strategy of multiple home runs, triples and doubles with the rare swing and miss.

Lexus has the strategy to move upward and the results to show they can move upward. Their management is top notch.

Acura moves downward in strategy and has not proven they can sell past 40-50k.

I've said it many times before and I don't know why people just act like its not the truth. IMAGE and PERCEPTION and TOTAL BRAND are key when you sell higher priced vehicles. These people are clearly successful people and they want to be associated with brands that are successful and highly desirable. People buy Lexus/BMW/Benz "just because". They buy the newest vehicles they offer "b/c its the newest thing they got". The brands worked hard to earn this type of justification.

Acura has done a piss poor job building their brand for any new NSX. Their flagship is a complete dud. They then bring 2 4 cylinders in the TSX and RDX (good cars but sub entry level). The NSX was canned in what 2002. Its 2008 and what have they done to move UPWARD, so the NSX would be a natural extension?

Nothing

The TL and MDX has done very well for them and continue to do so. However that won't cut it.

Over 50k, you have to build THE BRAND up. You can have the greatest car in the world, if prospective buyers do not RESPECT the brand, it will sell like ice cream to eskimos.

To be fair, I assume its supposed to be an Acura over here, and globally, though I have to agree with Mike's assessment on Acura's global stature.

And we know nothing about the car, it might be a full on super car, it might be not; no one said it was going to be a grand tourer. I don't see how this is any different than a front engine, RWD Lexus.

You guys say you want a new NSX in the mold of the old one but the fact is that no one bought it. I'm not saying it was a bad car; I love the old NSX, I love it to this day. But the people with the kind of money to buy cars like that don't want to blow it on a 6-cylinder engine low horsepower car. They want to blow it on a faster, bigger engined car. It's not about how good the car itself is, its about perception. A lot of you will mention the Porsche 911; I'm sorry but like it or not, the NSX just doesn't have the 911's cachet and *name*. Again, I know it sucks. I love the NSX. And I do wish they would just make something like the HSC concept; that car was perfect, and Honda is all about light weight, low HP brilliant handling sports cars. But I just don't think there is a business case for another 90k 6-cylinder mid engine super car for Honda/Acura.

Why they can't go the R8 route and make a brilliant V8-powered mid engine sports car for around 100k is beyond me though. Would you seriously consider a 6 cyl 350 hp NSX for the same price as the V8 420 hp Audi R8? I couldn't, but a 400 hp 8 cyl NSX would certainly be more appealing, at the 100k mark. Could be just the image boost that Acura DESPERATELY needs.

Making this car front engine is a huge mistake imo but it worked for GTR, seems to be working for LF-A, maybe there's a method to this madness.


Good points. I've said it in other threads, PORSCHE has the cache and image to pull off some "stunts". B/C its "Porsche" well its considered okay.

1. The 911 basically soldered on 30 years in Air Cooled platform. Its called evolving, engaging, beating physics. IN comparison the NSX does just as a good a job, if not better and its called "old and long in the tooth".
2. Porsche can sell a 911/Boxster sharing 60% of the parts with an identical face and people bought them up like mad. Acura can't sell a very solid RL at 50k, they can't give them away.
3. Porsche has maybe 600 versions of the 911:D and it seems the press thinks each one is a different car.
4. Porsche sold a 914 (VW based) and it kind of hurt image but clearly did not damage it to the point people call Porsche "ricey" or anything like that. Acura can't get past selling Integras/RSXs b/c of what way to many people do to them. A lot of people don't want to associated with that.

I love Porsche and I am also a sucker for the image and perception. I will not say its well deserved (their racing history speaks for itself) but it shows that IMAGE sells cars.

wow....that car looks very different then the old one....not bad looking tho

While LExus and Acura are both from Japan, you simply cannot compare the 2 brands, they are on total opposite ends of the spectrum. Lexus is a tier 1 brand and #92 on the most known brands in the world. Acura was just found to be lowest in the United States with branding.

I am not going to go further its obvious. Lexus has proven it CAN sell a 100k sedan, which is simply territory reserved for Europe. LS 600h L sales are 300% past projections. The LF-A is the next step to move Lexus further upward in a LOOOOOOONNG 20 year strategy of multiple home runs, triples and doubles with the rare swing and miss.

Lexus has the strategy to move upward and the results to show they can move upward. Their management is top notch.

Acura moves downward in strategy and has not proven they can sell past 40-50k.

I've said it many times before and I don't know why people just act like its not the truth. IMAGE and PERCEPTION and TOTAL BRAND are key when you sell higher priced vehicles. These people are clearly successful people and they want to be associated with brands that are successful and highly desirable. People buy Lexus/BMW/Benz "just because". They buy the newest vehicles they offer "b/c its the newest thing they got". The brands worked hard to earn this type of justification.

Acura has done a piss poor job building their brand for any new NSX. Their flagship is a complete dud. They then bring 2 4 cylinders in the TSX and RDX (good cars but sub entry level). The NSX was canned in what 2002. Its 2008 and what have they done to move UPWARD, so the NSX would be a natural extension?

Nothing

The TL and MDX has done very well for them and continue to do so. However that won't cut it.

Over 50k, you have to build THE BRAND up. You can have the greatest car in the world, if prospective buyers do not RESPECT the brand, it will sell like ice cream to eskimos.

Here we go again:cry:, Sicklex Lexus is not that different from Acura or on a whole different level then Acura like you try to say they are. I know you are a huge Lexus fan and dislike Acura very much but most people who are not Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura fans don't see a huge difference between Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Yes, Lexus is more successful in selling larger expensive lux sedans then Acura but the only reason is because Acura does not offer a large lux sedan right now and Lexus does have more prestige but it is not that huge of difference. Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are all upmarket Japanese brands that generally sell vehicles that are better made, more reliable, and less expensive then the competition and often share parts/platforms with their base brands and most people don't see a huge difference. I know you are going to reply with how right now Acura shares platforms with Accords and don't offer v8s or rwd platforms as of now but Lexus and Infiniti also share platforms with Toyota and Nissan and Lexus top selling models that account for over half of their total sales are the Lexus ES and RX which are also based on fwd Camry platforms and use Toyota v6s. There is nothing wrong with sharing platforms and basic engines as long as the product turns out good. Aside from the LS the other expensive Lexus models out now don't sell very well either and well below the European competition. If Lexus did not sell the camry based ES and RX Lexus sales numbers would not be impressive and well below the competition. People blindly buy BMW and Mercedes regardless of price and reliability just for the brand. People generally do not buy Lexus regardless of price and reliability. I guarantee if Lexus were more expensive or priced the same as the Euro competition and no longer reliable or only just as reliable as the European competition then more expensive Lexus models would sell very poorly. Most people do not blindly buy Lexus vehicles just to have a Lexus but more so because of a less expensive price, reliability, quality, reviews, better dealership experience then the European competition. People do blindly buy unreliable overpriced Mercedes and BMWs in droves just for the brand and to say they own a car from that brand.

You keep using how Acura was rated last on a survey but you fail to mention it was just one meaningless Consumer reports survey of what a couple hundred or a few thousand people. Just one survey is not the end all and be all of brand recognition and ranking. Other surveys have Acura highly rated and regarded. A consumer reports survey or old Forbes article or whatever does not really mean anything. If Acura was rated so low then they would not be anywhere near as successful today as they are and Acura does not sell cheap vehicles. Acuras are highly regarded and sell very well, the TL was the top selling luxury car in the US for a couple years, that survey clearly means nothing. It was simply one brand recognition survey most likely filled out by a bunch of non car people who do not know the difference between an inline 6 or v6 and how much hp their own car has.

Right now Acura is in a bit of a slump and not up to where they were in 90's and alot of Acura fans are pretty disappointed especially with a ffont engined NSX, RL refresh, 09 TSX not getting a bump in power but there are new things on the way. Before you say Acuras are just fancy Accords it was Acura who sold a Ferrari fighting mid engine exotic supercar that was the most expensive Japanese car available in the US up until a few years ago, even more expensive then any Lexus and the Legend was always based on its own platform and did not share a engine with any Honda. The original RL was based on its own platform too. The Vigor had its own unique 5 cylinder that was not available on any US market Hondas and Acuras always had a look of their own. Acura were/are not just Honda rebadges while Lexus was/are totally seperate from Toyota but were just going to beat a dead horse.

The fact is Acura nor Lexus has the brand cachet to sell cars close to 200K, most brands don't have that cachet. That is not an insult to Acura or Lexus it is just a fact. No matter how much you are impressed with Lexus they still sell based on reliability, price, value,quality, dealership experience, past experience. Buyers buying cars for 170-200K are no longer really concerned with reliability, value, price, etc and buy mainly on brand prestige/history in which Lexus and Acura and most car brands simply don't have at that price point. BMW does not sell cars at that price point and Mercedes can't really sell much at that price point-Maybach and SLR have been failures. Lexus may have credibility with luxury cars but they have no credibility with high performance sports cars and when people think of Lexus the last thing they think of are sports cars, Acura at least has credibility with having made and sold an excellent mid engine exotic sports car that is highly regarded and legendary. I just think Lexus and Acura should not try to jump into that market right now especially the way the economy is and if they want to eventually sell cars in that price range they should build up to it with a 105-115K sports car first. To entice buyers at 170K-180K the LFA and NSX are going to have to be absolutely stellar to lure buyers from Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche, etc.

So Acura confirms it will be V10 and SH-AWD? From a technical stand-point, it's a direct GT-R competitor. Price-wise, it sounds like it will compete with the LF-A and European competition. I hope Acura does release the car at 180K, because then it will likely flop and will hopefully be a cold hard reality check for Honda.

Good write up Udel. Well said.

The NSX was canned in what 2002. Its 2008 and what have they done to move UPWARD, so the NSX would be a natural extension?

Nothing



The NSX was canned and last was on sale in 2005. So its really only been 3 years. However, I for one DO NOT want to see a $180K front engine NSX. That is way too expensive. Personally, I think that is too expensive for even the LF-A even if as you said Lexus has more prestige. In that price range, I don't care how good it performs. I'm looking to buy a Lambo or Ferrari. Even if Acura did bring out my dream NSX-2 with a V8 or V10 mid engine and current supercar performance and looks, it will be overpriced at $180K. They need to keep this car closr to $100K and no more than $120. It is also the same I say about the LF-A. My opinion is $120K max for that car.

Here we go again:cry:, Sicklex Lexus is not that different from Acura or on a whole different level then Acura like you try to say they are.

Maybe I am seeing an alternate reality, but Acura seems to be plummeting
towards the bottom in terms of prestige while Lexus continues to rise to
the top. :confused:

Oh yeah, I'm completely off topic. The NSX will come out at the same
time the next Supra will - NEVER. Hahahaha.

Here we go again:cry:, Sicklex Lexus is not that different from Acura or on a whole different level then Acura like you try to say they are.

I cannot take the rest of this post serious when you and others simply REFUSE the OBVIOUS. The two brands are on TOTAL OPPOSITE ENDS of the spectrum. Deal with it.

I know you are a huge Lexus fan and dislike Acura very much but most people who are not Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura fans don't see a huge difference between Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti.

100% inaccurate. Lexus by far is recognized as a leader in luxury and has the awards to prove it. You can combine Acura and Infiniti's awards and review wins and they are not CLOSE to Lexus. The biggest kudos to Lexus a lot of times is not when they are in a review, yet you read "LExus like in ride", "near Lexus in quiet" etc etc.

Acura is NEVER USED AS A MEASURING BAR.

Just BECAUSE the 3 are from Japan, does not make them near equals. In contrast, the big 3 in Germany worldwide, are equals, Audi, Benz, BMW. In AMERICA, it is BMW and Benz and only a fool would throw Audi into that mix.


Yes, Lexus is more successful in selling larger expensive lux sedans then Acura but the only reason is because Acura does not offer a large lux sedan right now and Lexus does have more prestige but it is not that huge of difference.

You have to be joking b/c you are a JOKE without a premium luxury sedan, you are a stepping stone to luxury.
On top of that, one brand has ZERO RWD or V-8s, the other has 5 V-8s and RWD.
Both has on road SUVs, Lexus has off-road SUVs.
Lexus has no 4 cylinder outside the IS 220d, which is the torquiest diesel in class.
Acura has no diesels. Acura is not in Europe.
Lexus has a hardtop convert, Acura has no coupe.
Lexus has hybrids, Acura isn't even the most fuel efficient luxury brand.
Lexus now has a "F" brand to compete with AMG/Benz etc. Acura no answer

I could go on and on but if you can't see the two are not even close, then I don't know how to open your eyes.

Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura are all upmarket Japanese brands that generally sell vehicles that are better made, more reliable, and less expensive then the competition and often share parts/platforms with their base brands and most people don't see a huge difference. I know you are going to reply with how right now Acura shares platforms with Accords and don't offer v8s or rwd platforms as of now but Lexus and Infiniti also share platforms with Toyota and Nissan and Lexus top selling models that account for over half of their total sales are the Lexus ES and RX which are also based on fwd Camry platforms and use Toyota v6s. There is nothing wrong with sharing platforms and basic engines as long as the product turns out good. Aside from the LS the other expensive Lexus models out now don't sell very well either and well below the European competition. If Lexus did not sell the camry based ES and RX Lexus sales numbers would not be impressive and well below the competition.

You cannot take the ES and RX out of Lexus sales and say sales are down because you have to take the TL and MDX out and do the same thing, if you are trying to compare apples to apples. I have never said platform sharing is bad but it needs to stop at the entry level and not have your entire lineup based on your parent company. Interestingly, the Tier I brand, Lexus doesn't do that and you want to argue its fine. Acura/Infiniti continue to do so and they are a step below as a luxury marque. COnicidence? I think not.


People blindly buy BMW and Mercedes regardless of price and reliability just for the brand. People generally do not buy Lexus regardless of price and reliability. I guarantee if Lexus were more expensive or priced the same as the Euro competition and no longer reliable or only just as reliable as the European competition then more expensive Lexus models would sell very poorly. Most people do not blindly buy Lexus vehicles just to have a Lexus but more so because of a less expensive price, reliability, quality, reviews, better dealership experience then the European competition. People do blindly buy unreliable overpriced Mercedes and BMWs in droves just for the brand and to say they own a car from that brand.

If you look at Lexus MSRP, it has climbed to a level higher than Audi and nearly on par with the Germans when they compete.Lexus has proven that people want the PRODUCT and feel the PRICE is worth it. IN comparsion, Acura has the "value" strategy which is an oxymoron. Lexus has ALWAYS given you the SAME or EQUIVALENT product and sometimes, yes (especially initially) for less money.
For example the IS 300 that was true 3 series competition had the essentials, RWD and a I-6. Acura sells you a FWD and I-4 and calls it the same thing. That is not value, that is a different car.

You keep using how Acura was rated last on a survey but you fail to mention it was just one meaningless Consumer reports survey of what a couple hundred or a few thousand people. Just one survey is not the end all and be all of brand recognition and ranking. Other surveys have Acura highly rated and regarded. A consumer reports survey or old Forbes article or whatever does not really mean anything. If Acura was rated so low then they would not be anywhere near as successful today as they are and Acura does not sell cheap vehicles. Acuras are highly regarded and sell very well, the TL was the top selling luxury car in the US for a couple years, that survey clearly means nothing. It was simply one brand recognition survey most likely filled out by a bunch of non car people who do not know the difference between an inline 6 or v6 and how much hp their own car has.

You do understand Acura sales are down 15% for the second year in a row right. Sorry but Acura is mentioned with the Honda faithful (and a faithful bunch they are) and simply is ignored otherwise. I cannot remember the last time anyone asked me about an Acura. The TL is the only one that generates any interest and HONDA THEMSELVES stated the TL is cross-shopped with the ACCORD more than any other car.

Right now Acura is in a bit of a slump and not up to where they were in 90's and alot of Acura fans are pretty disappointed especially with a ffont engined NSX, RL refresh, 09 TSX not getting a bump in power but there are new things on the way. Before you say Acuras are just fancy Accords it was Acura who sold a Ferrari fighting mid engine exotic supercar that was the most expensive Japanese car available in the US up until a few years ago, even more expensive then any Lexus and the Legend was always based on its own platform and did not share a engine with any Honda. The original RL was based on its own platform too. The Vigor had its own unique 5 cylinder that was not available on any US market Hondas and Acuras always had a look of their own. Acura were/are not just Honda rebadges while Lexus was/are totally seperate from Toyota but were just going to beat a dead horse.

With competition as think as ever and with them basically having a drought in the late 1990s, this is no time for ANOTHER slump. Infiniti just ousold Acura for the first time in HISTORY. Acura can't worry about Lexus, they need to worry about Infiniti. Infiniti is showing focus in product, design and is doing a better job than Acura. The original RL is the definition of failure as the Vigor, Acura doesn't even MENTION THEM on their own website. Its like the 1990s didn't happen outside the NSX and Legend.

The fact is Acura nor Lexus has the brand cachet to sell cars close to 200K, most brands don't have that cachet. That is not an insult to Acura or Lexus it is just a fact.

No, that is your BIASED opinion trying to lump Acura and Lexus together, which. Here are the FACTS you ignore'
-the MDX is the only Acura that has a price over 40k with options that has sold relatively well (and ANY SUV sells).
-The NSX while superb, sold like crap after its initial year as an Acura and sold like crap as a Honda overseas b/c of price. People scoff at it.
-The RL has NEVER sold well, it has always been at least 45k, it is 50k now and buyers laugh at it.

IN CONTRAST, THE FACTS
-LExus sold 60k SC 430s with 6k deposits when it debuted at the autoshow in 2001. It sold out its first year of 12k units and continues to do so at 10k units.
-The GX is a 50k SUV and has always met/beat sales expectations. (this is a lexus vehicle that still surprises me with how well it does)
-The GS is 3rd in sales and we BOTH can agree, it is not the home run like the 2GS. The GS has many opportunities, yet people BUY it.
-The LX was 65k, now 75-85k and with $4 gas prices, you CANNOT FIND ONE on dealer lots. People are fighting for them.
-The LS now has a base over 60k and gets to 120k loaded and its the best selling in class and AGAIN, the over 100k 600h L is 300% past projections.

So for you to say, Acura/Lexus can't sell a 200k car is foolish. Acura cannot sell ANYTHING over 50k. Lexus has sold multiple vehicles over 50k and then 60k then 70k, now over 100k and people buy them.

You see Lexus managment is not stupid like Acura management. Acura wants to dumb down the brand with 4 cylinder SUvs and sedans, have a failure for a 50k car, then MAGICALLY JUMP to over 150k??????

NO BUSINESS CAN DO THAT. NONE.


In contrast, Lexus took its time, it has been 20 years in the making, moving up and up and up, with hardly a mistake and BUILDING THE BRAND to be respected in that price range.

One does not SIMPLY build a 100k car and have them bought up. DOesn't work like that.

No matter how much you are impressed with Lexus they still sell based on reliability, price, value,quality, dealership experience, past experience. Buyers buying cars for 170-200K are no longer really concerned with reliability, value, price, etc and buy mainly on brand prestige/history in which Lexus and Acura and most car brands simply don't have at that price point. BMW does not sell cars at that price point and Mercedes can't really sell much at that price point-Maybach and SLR have been failures. Lexus may have credibility with luxury cars but they have no credibility with high performance sports cars and when people think of Lexus the last thing they think of are sports cars, Acura at least has credibility with having made and sold an excellent mid engine exotic sports car that is highly regarded and legendary. I just think Lexus and Acura should not try to jump into that market right now especially the way the economy is and if they want to eventually sell cars in that price range they should build up to it with a 105-115K sports car first. To entice buyers at 170K-180K the LFA and NSX are going to have to be absolutely stellar to lure buyers from Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche, etc.


Outside of you continuing to bunch Acura/Lexus together here, I do agree with the sentiment "IMAGE/PANACHE/BRAND" sells at that price. Is there is possibility Lexus can fail? Hell yes. However, just browsing Ferrari chat/6 speed online and seeing how many people there have or had a Lexus, I think they have a decent chance of going AGAIN where no Japanese luxury brand has gone before.



I need to learn how to use multi-quote:D

What is amazing is HERE, people defend Acura and its decisions and on NSXPrime, they state the SAME thing I do/have and are sick of what Acura is doing/done.

Browse NSXPrime for some great reading, I do all the time.

You guys need to chill out. It's some truth in both of you guys statements. Truth be told I will never think about buying a Lexus sports car over 100k maybe an Acura because I previously own a NSX. Lexus does have more prestige than Acura. But in the 100K crowd it’s MB/BMW.
I truly like the direction Lexus and Infiniti is headed. As usual Acura is going to do their own thing.

True story.

My neighbor had a beautiful White MB CLS.
I told him I was going to purchase MB CL. One month before I purchase the car he purchases a White GS430. Within two weeks after I purchase my car he couldn’t take it any more b/c I was getting all the attention on my street. Within 3 weeks of me own my car he purchase a White BMW 645CI. I ask him why he trade in the Lexus he stated plain and simple the car has no prestige. No one was giving him the attention he received previously in his MB CLS. I must admit he’s arrogant but he’s just like most people with a lot money.

I think the only way anyone will buy an NSX is if it rivals the performances and absolutely ridiculous records set by the Bugatti Veyron lol

For that kind of performance and figures, 180k would be a bargain lol

One thing about the Porsche is it only has a 6 cylinder engine also doesn't it? So comparing it to a NSX is the right comparison. The NSX just never had a turbo version to compete with the higher HP cars.

i think Acura wants to target the NSX against the LF-A more than any other car
thats why they thought about front engined setup

or maybe they want more power so have to go with front engine as they cant fit any decently powerful engine in the mid?

One thing about the Porsche is it only has a 6 cylinder engine also doesn't it? So comparing it to a NSX is the right comparison. The NSX just never had a turbo version to compete with the higher HP cars.

I wouldn't compare the NSX to a Porsche just because of cylinders. I think many NSX owners would say the same. They are in their own rights great cars but I wouldn't compare a Porsche to an NSX. The NSX is an exotic. While Porsche cars even in ridiculously expensive trims (GT2, GT3, Turbo) aren't really considered exotics. Funny though because the 911 Turbo probably costs the same as the last NSXs sold.
Porsches are great expensive DDs.
While the NSX can be a DD, it's an exotic. It was meant to compete against Ferraris. Do you see Ferrari/Lambo owners DDing their cars?
Just my opinion though.

I'm nervous enough about Lexus selling a car for $180,000. I really don't think its the proper time for Acura to do so. Like Mike pointed out, Acura has no offering in the premium luxury sedan category. It's flagship RL competes with the midsize executive sedans... and it has a hard enough time selling in that segement. Lexus has proven they can sell a car for $120,000 against the speculation by many that they would fail. Now between the two, who do you think honestly has a better chance of selling a $180,000 sports car? 1.) The company that is well known for selling $40,000 cars but struggling to sell one for $50,000; or 2.) A top selling luxury brand who can match sales monthly with what many consider to be the best car in the world (LS vs S-Class... this month the LS outsold the S-Class by 200 units). To play in the 6-digits game, superb engineering alone does not cut it. Heck, even to play in the $70,000 game superb engineering alone does not cut it (e.g. Phaeton). If either DOES have a chance of selling a car for $180,000, I'm putting money on Lexus every day of the week.

I also agree on Mike... I think the NSX replacement should be an evolution of the old one... not a revolution. One of the problems with the NSX as far as public appeal was that it was low on its power compared to others (mind not that it had and still has an absolutely phenomenal chassis). If they had stuck with something similar to the HSC concept + V10... I think they could have tried to sell that car for at least $100-120,000.

Also, Toyota has been putting R&D into the LF-A for years now. Honda cannot even get a design down that doesn't cause a wave of public nausea and unrest. How are they going to come up with something with the looks and performance of a proper Ferrari-alternative by 2010???? Maybe my life would be a lot less stressful if I took a hit of whatever the Acura spokesperson is smokin....

i think Acura wants to target the NSX against the LF-A more than any other car
thats why they thought about front engined setup

or maybe they want more power so have to go with front engine as they cant fit any decently powerful engine in the mid?


Nope, it is management greed for money and sales that pushed the new NSX design to where it is. I can understand wanting to build a car that sells and makes money, but the original NSX wasn't built to be that car. Soichiro Honda built it to showcase its engine building and F1 technology and racing heritage. That is it. It wasn't expected to be a money maker but a halo car pure and simple. Now that he has passed away, the new Honda management has pretty much forgotten its great racing heritage and only wants to build cars that sell and make money.

Putting a high HP engine in the middle is no bid deal. Honda has the ability, they just don't care to use it anymore.

Here is some little known trivia with the original design of the NSX back in the late 80s. There were many running prototypes with different engines. There was a NA V10, a V8, the NA V6, and I believe there may have been a turbo V6 but can't be sure. I'd have to check my NSX books again. Anyway, that is how much R&D they put into the original NSX. They tried it all and settled on a VTEC V6 for its size, weight and power balance. If the new designers put half the time they did on the original NSX as they are in the new NSX they would actually come up with something decent. However, they don't want to invest in making another exotic car. They want to make a mass market, appeal to the majority cookie cutter been there done that type of car. Nothing special. Everyone has seen and admired front engine RWD V10 cars for decades now. Bringing another car like that into the world is nothing special.

Here is some little known trivia with the original design of the NSX back in the late 80s. There were many running prototypes with different engines. There was a NA V10, a V8, the NA V6, and I believe there may have been a turbo V6 but can't be sure. I'd have to check my NSX books again. Anyway, that is how much R&D they put into the original NSX. They tried it all and settled on a VTEC V6 for its size, weight and power balance. If the new designers put half the time they did on the original NSX as they are in the new NSX they would actually come up with something decent. However, they don't want to invest in making another exotic car. They want to make a mass market, appeal to the majority cookie cutter been there done that type of car. Nothing special. Everyone has seen and admired front engine RWD V10 cars for decades now. Bringing another car like that into the world is nothing special.

I don't think Acura wants to build a supercar that will make money because I don't think they'll sell too many at a near 200k price point. I'm incredibly skeptical that Lexus can do that and they already have a 6 figure vehicle. A loaded out LS600hL only tops out at around what 120k? If the LF-A sells at 180k that's a 60k leap between the closest priced models within Lexus. I don't think that is a good idea. Now Acura doesn't have a current vehicle that sells at over 100k. So a supercar if they make it if it's priced closer to 100k is still a HUGE difference in pricing between that car and the car priced below it.

Yeah, Lexus had done the pricing incrementally, the $120,000 LS 600h L is now the most expensive vehicle exported from Japan. Definitely the LF-A will be more than that, but how much is anyone's guess. At the high end the numbers become dizzying, like the humongous range in prices from the S550 to the S63 AMG.

With the NSX, the original deserves a LOT of respect, the Japanese supercar which defined Honda's engineering ability and gave Acura a halo car. I like what others have suggested in this thread, why not make the next NSX an evolution of the first in some way. However, if they are to price themselves into the stratosphere, that may be too different, despite the massive range at the high end.

Specifically, I'm wondering about reports that the first NSX development/production was very expensive and not profitable--and what it did for Acura. At the time, IIRC the Legend was doing well as the flagship. The NSX had a nice halo effect, but the rest of the range was more important anyhow--and the step-up in price was not as huge (initial 'modest' price by comparison). Now, Acura is arguably not doing as well and a supercar still won't fix it. But with their highest model, the RL not able to command $60K very easily, it would be too massive a gulf to have the next NSX command over twice that much IMO.

I think there are good points in this thread in regards to luxury branding and perceived prestige, but these things can be overcome by the quality of the product itself. Take the GT-R for example: does anyone care if it's a Nissan instead of an Infiniti (in regards to prestige, not dealer service)? Granted most Infiniti purchasers aren't buying their cars based on brand name alone, but I think it's still a valid point. Much like the original NSX, the GT-R's performance is beyond expectation, and the proverbial bar has been forever raised. That's why the GT-R is universally loved, despite the Nissan emblem and lack of brand prestige. But if Honda is looking to sell a car at $180k, it had better be something beyond extraordinary.

And there's the crux of the problem. Honda has shown nothing of interest to the consensus of car enthusiasts. How many years have passed, and how many disappointing designs have we seen? Too darn many. You can only cry wolf so many times. Every time I see a 'New NSX' thread, I cringe in preparation for the ugliness that is to be revealed. How sad is that?

Honda needs to follow Audi's lead to produce a car that is priced in line with the R8. If Audi can sell out R8s at around $120k, why can't Honda make an NSX that betters its performance and appearance for a little less money? It's not the Audi name that is selling these cars. And it's not like we're all in love with the R8 based on its appearance alone; much like the GT-R, there are certain awkward design elements. Objectively speaking, I would not say that either car has beautiful lines like an Aston, Ferrari, or even the original NSX. But we overlook these shortcomings, since it's how these cars drive that shapes our perception. Honda simply needs to find a design that looks good (or at least not repulsive) and make it perform.

Sorry, but I won't hold my breath.

Now Acura doesn't have a current vehicle that sells at over 100k. So a supercar if they make it if it's priced closer to 100k is still a HUGE difference in pricing between that car and the car priced below it.

People were paying around $110K+ for the original NSX when it first came out. The MSRP was in the mid $60K range so some paid double. The 2005 NSX MSRP was $89K. If, Honda were to have built a real 2nd Gen NSX based on a mid engine platform with HP and performance matching or besting todays exotics it could warrant an asking price of $100K. $150+ no way though.

I need to learn how to use multi-quote:D

What is amazing is HERE, people defend Acura and its decisions and on NSXPrime, they state the SAME thing I do/have and are sick of what Acura is doing/done.

Browse NSXPrime for some great reading, I do all the time.

We always argue this Acura/Lexus thing so I am not going to do another long post addressing everything you said because its been said before but I will comment on a few things( I predict it is going to be alot longer then I intend but oh well).

Both brands are definitely not in total opposite ends of the spectrum, I don't know how you can possibly come up with that and shows your huge pro Lexus/anti Acura bias. If saying and thinking that makes you feel better for owning and being a Lexus fan and able to completely dismiss and llook down on Acura and people who own and like Acuras then that is fine but pretty out of touch with reality. Is Lexus considered a more prestigious luxury automaker then Acura, yes to most people. Is it a huge difference or a whole other level, certainly not. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum would be extremely cheap small econo car companies like Kia/Suzuki compared to super expensive exotic small companies Bugatti/Rolls Royce/Bently/Ferrari, Lamborgini. Lexus and Acura fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Not total opposite ends.

In another comment you were simply naming everything Lexus has and Acura doesn't like Lexus sets the standard for all types of vehicles and options that a luxury maker should offer. Not every car company has to come out with pretty much the same type of car or copy what other automakers offer almost to a tee to compete in segments. Their is nothing wrong with the size of the vehicle being slightly larger/smaller/wider or have different engine/drivetrain options then its competition. They all don't have to offer the same thing or be the same type of car.

You say Acura has no coupes but they have sold coupes they just don't have one right now, they had a Legend coupe, CL coupe, Integra could be considered a coupe/hatchback, NSX was a 2 door sports car. How many coupes or 2 doors has Lexus offered, one and the current boulevard cruiser SC430 is in a bad need of a redesign and is pretty much ignored by the automotive press and far below the competition. I know alot of people who think it is extremly odd looking and more of a chick car. It may have sold well when it came out but how could it not, it was the only Japanese luxury convertable available and there are not many other cars in that segment, Germany had the SL and Jag had the poor selling XK. Thats really it,people had little choice so just because it sold pretty well in the first few years is nothing to be all that proud of. If there was alot of different competition in that segment then maybe that would be different.

The last generations of Legends also sold in the 40's and were not that much less expensive then LS at the time and they sold pretty well so Acura can sell sedans in the 40's and over especially considering inflation where that would be more or less like selling well into the 50's back in the mid 90's.

You say Lexus has an F brand to compete with AMG, M but it has only recently come out with this, the ISF has only been available for a few months. I give Lexus props for offering such a car but time will tell if it is truly successful and it is only something they did very recently. You say Acura has no deisals but Lexus in the US does not either and Acura is slated to get one soon in the TSX.

Lexus prices are not on par with BMW/Mercedes, Lexus cars sell for far below what the Germans charge, where do you get that Lexus prices are on par with BMW/Merc? Have you seen how much an E class/5 series cost when similiarly optioned and configured to GS models, the Germans are way more expensive. The LS460 starts in the 60s LS460L at around 72K. A base S class is like 87.5 and once optioned similiarly to a LS is a good deal over 90K and easily get to well over 120K when adding larger/stronger engines. They are not even close. Loaded 1 series which is a notch below the IS in my opinion are still in the mid 40's. Load 3 series can go in the upper 50's. The IS and ES are much less expensive then then similiar 3 series. I for one am glad Lexus does not way overprice their cars and I will give them no respect if they do. Why would you want to pay more for the same car, just for an ego thing that they can be as overpriced as the German competiton?

The LS600l is selling in very small numbers too, just because a couple thousand are buying it does not mean it is a hit. It is the only large lux sedan to offer a hybrid which means it has no competition and can appeal to the greenies who think it is somehow a responsible vehicle even though it is anything but a fuel saving economical "green" vehicle. A four door lux sedan is a much easier sell and appeals to a ton more people then a 2 seat mid engine exotic that really only appeals to a small number of hardcore enthusiasts. Just because Lexus LS600l sold more then expectations does not mean much if expectations were super low. Lexus projected 2K per year which is extremely low and probrably done on purpose so if it broke sales goals it would look like a big success when it isn't. They sold 6095 worldwide which was over expectation but not a huge number especially compared to regular LS sales. For Nov07 sales Lexus sold 170 LS hybrids compared to 2668 regular LS units which is only 6.4% of total LS sales, that is not that impressive and does not mean people are buying 100K Lexus vehicles in droves, the vast majority buy regular LS priced in the 70's. Lexus is selling these hybrids to a niche group of wealthy eco buyers and I doubt that trend will be long term as most know the hybrid LS is slower then the regular one and does not really get any better gas mileage even though it cost 30K more and uses more resources to build. If Acura came out with a car like that you would be critisizing it up and down.

As far as Acura sales being down, pretty much all luxury sales are down in 08 including Lexus mainly do to the economy and gas prices. Everywhere I looked which there was not that much info showed Lexus sales down and often percentage wise below Acura sales. For March 08 luxury sales were down 15% and Lexus sales fell 18% another source said Acura was down 8% and Lexus down 9.3%, not exactly sure what month it was but it was recently. Nov 07 lux sales were down 7% BMW,Merc were up but Lexus and Acura were down Acura down 15%, Lexus down 6.9%.

The one important fact you have to consider with Acura sales being down is that all Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles and have replacements or major updates due soon. Lexus on the other hand came out with the new ES, IS, and LS all well after the Acura competing models came out. The GS also got a new much more powerful v6, hybrid, and larger more powerful v8 well after the TL and RL came out. Most of the competition have came out with new or heavily updated models while Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles so that partially explains Acuras decline in sales, once the new TSX, TL, and RL(not talking about the horrible refresh of course:D) but a new RL come out sales will go back up. The TSX has only recently become available and sales figures will not be available for awhile.

All right I am done with this for now, it ended up being way longer then I intended again :cry: and we are just not going to agree on this subject although we do seem to agree or see eye to eye on most other things :thumbup:. Another nice long Acure/Lexus argument:woot:

Acura should start off their brand in Japan with the new NSX then other models follow. This way it won't be a Honda in other places and Acura in the US.

^ Agreed. Frong engine = Bad idea. NSX needs Mid or rear engine. Keep the weight down to 3050 lbs. Need 6 or 7 speed SMG. Bring the HSC concept design to reality. The NSX will then succeed, I strongly believe.:thumbup:

good luck with that, even a $650k enzo curb weight is 3000 lbs which is utilizing a full carbon fiber chassis. Aint gonna happen

We always argue this Acura/Lexus thing so I am not going to do another long post addressing everything you said because its been said before but I will comment on a few things( I predict it is going to be alot longer then I intend but oh well).

Both brands are definitely not in total opposite ends of the spectrum, I don't know how you can possibly come up with that and shows your huge pro Lexus/anti Acura bias. If saying and thinking that makes you feel better for owning and being a Lexus fan and able to completely dismiss and llook down on Acura and people who own and like Acuras then that is fine but pretty out of touch with reality. Is Lexus considered a more prestigious luxury automaker then Acura, yes to most people. Is it a huge difference or a whole other level, certainly not. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum would be extremely cheap small econo car companies like Kia/Suzuki compared to super expensive exotic small companies Bugatti/Rolls Royce/Bently/Ferrari, Lamborgini. Lexus and Acura fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. Not total opposite ends.

In another comment you were simply naming everything Lexus has and Acura doesn't like Lexus sets the standard for all types of vehicles and options that a luxury maker should offer. Not every car company has to come out with pretty much the same type of car or copy what other automakers offer almost to a tee to compete in segments. Their is nothing wrong with the size of the vehicle being slightly larger/smaller/wider or have different engine/drivetrain options then its competition. They all don't have to offer the same thing or be the same type of car.

You say Acura has no coupes but they have sold coupes they just don't have one right now, they had a Legend coupe, CL coupe, Integra could be considered a coupe/hatchback, NSX was a 2 door sports car. How many coupes or 2 doors has Lexus offered, one and the current boulevard cruiser SC430 is in a bad need of a redesign and is pretty much ignored by the automotive press and far below the competition. I know alot of people who think it is extremly odd looking and more of a chick car. It may have sold well when it came out but how could it not, it was the only Japanese luxury convertable available and there are not many other cars in that segment, Germany had the SL and Jag had the poor selling XK. Thats really it,people had little choice so just because it sold pretty well in the first few years is nothing to be all that proud of. If there was alot of different competition in that segment then maybe that would be different.

The last generations of Legends also sold in the 40's and were not that much less expensive then LS at the time and they sold pretty well so Acura can sell sedans in the 40's and over especially considering inflation where that would be more or less like selling well into the 50's back in the mid 90's.

You say Lexus has an F brand to compete with AMG, M but it has only recently come out with this, the ISF has only been available for a few months. I give Lexus props for offering such a car but time will tell if it is truly successful and it is only something they did very recently. You say Acura has no deisals but Lexus in the US does not either and Acura is slated to get one soon in the TSX.

Lexus prices are not on par with BMW/Mercedes, Lexus cars sell for far below what the Germans charge, where do you get that Lexus prices are on par with BMW/Merc? Have you seen how much an E class/5 series cost when similiarly optioned and configured to GS models, the Germans are way more expensive. The LS460 starts in the 60s LS460L at around 72K. A base S class is like 87.5 and once optioned similiarly to a LS is a good deal over 90K and easily get to well over 120K when adding larger/stronger engines. They are not even close. Loaded 1 series which is a notch below the IS in my opinion are still in the mid 40's. Load 3 series can go in the upper 50's. The IS and ES are much less expensive then then similiar 3 series. I for one am glad Lexus does not way overprice their cars and I will give them no respect if they do. Why would you want to pay more for the same car, just for an ego thing that they can be as overpriced as the German competiton?

The LS600l is selling in very small numbers too, just because a couple thousand are buying it does not mean it is a hit. It is the only large lux sedan to offer a hybrid which means it has no competition and can appeal to the greenies who think it is somehow a responsible vehicle even though it is anything but a fuel saving economical "green" vehicle. A four door lux sedan is a much easier sell and appeals to a ton more people then a 2 seat mid engine exotic that really only appeals to a small number of hardcore enthusiasts. Just because Lexus LS600l sold more then expectations does not mean much if expectations were super low. Lexus projected 2K per year which is extremely low and probrably done on purpose so if it broke sales goals it would look like a big success when it isn't. They sold 6095 worldwide which was over expectation but not a huge number especially compared to regular LS sales. For Nov07 sales Lexus sold 170 LS hybrids compared to 2668 regular LS units which is only 6.4% of total LS sales, that is not that impressive and does not mean people are buying 100K Lexus vehicles in droves, the vast majority buy regular LS priced in the 70's. Lexus is selling these hybrids to a niche group of wealthy eco buyers and I doubt that trend will be long term as most know the hybrid LS is slower then the regular one and does not really get any better gas mileage even though it cost 30K more and uses more resources to build. If Acura came out with a car like that you would be critisizing it up and down.

As far as Acura sales being down, pretty much all luxury sales are down in 08 including Lexus mainly do to the economy and gas prices. Everywhere I looked which there was not that much info showed Lexus sales down and often percentage wise below Acura sales. For March 08 luxury sales were down 15% and Lexus sales fell 18% another source said Acura was down 8% and Lexus down 9.3%, not exactly sure what month it was but it was recently. Nov 07 lux sales were down 7% BMW,Merc were up but Lexus and Acura were down Acura down 15%, Lexus down 6.9%.

The one important fact you have to consider with Acura sales being down is that all Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles and have replacements or major updates due soon. Lexus on the other hand came out with the new ES, IS, and LS all well after the Acura competing models came out. The GS also got a new much more powerful v6, hybrid, and larger more powerful v8 well after the TL and RL came out. Most of the competition have came out with new or heavily updated models while Acura sedans are at the end of their life cycles so that partially explains Acuras decline in sales, once the new TSX, TL, and RL(not talking about the horrible refresh of course:D) but a new RL come out sales will go back up. The TSX has only recently become available and sales figures will not be available for awhile.

All right I am done with this for now, it ended up being way longer then I intended again :cry: and we are just not going to agree on this subject although we do seem to agree or see eye to eye on most other things :thumbup:. Another nice long Acure/Lexus argument:woot:

You do realize you accuse ME of having Bias when you have equal bias towards Honda/Acura? Pot meet kettle. Of course I am biased to Lexus but I have the history and background of most all carmakers to make educated posts and responses that are full of factual information to educate those that may now know these things.

You are offended that Lexus/Acura are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Hey, I am not the one running either company. The facts and results speak for themselves!!!!:D;)
The begining of your post is an attack on me, did you read what you wrote?

The Legend GS sold in the 45k range and SOLD LIKE CRAP. Don't get mad at me I LOVE THE CAR, I think it was one of the best cars of the 1990s. bitkahuna had one and loved it.
The fact is the PUBLIC did not buy it, not the 1st or 2nd RL.

I am confused why you would even DEBATE Acura coupes, as this is what has happened to each one;
-NSX (which I adore) discontinued
-Integra/RSX discontinued
-Legend Coupe discontinued
-CL Coupe discontinued

Those are FACTS. Don't get upset at me for listing FACTS. You are mistaking BIAS for FACTs that you chose to just ignore.

The SC in contrast evolved into the SC 430. We may not be huge fans of it and the INTERNET may hate the car, but it sells in its limited quantities. It has not been discontinued. It provided at the time a HUGE halo for Lexus when it debuted and became popular with the rich and famous.

Glancing at the rest of your post and reflecting on the ones in the past, it is clear the wool is over your eyes and you refuse to use logic. I honestly don't think you know much about either company outside that you own a Leuxs and love Honda.

Fine with me but the thing is I do ;)

I think there are good points in this thread in regards to luxury branding and perceived prestige, but these things can be overcome by the quality of the product itself. Take the GT-R for example: does anyone care if it's a Nissan instead of an Infiniti (in regards to prestige, not dealer service)? Granted most Infiniti purchasers aren't buying their cars based on brand name alone, but I think it's still a valid point. Much like the original NSX, the GT-R's performance is beyond expectation, and the proverbial bar has been forever raised. That's why the GT-R is universally loved, despite the Nissan emblem and lack of brand prestige. But if Honda is looking to sell a car at $180k, it had better be something beyond extraordinary.

And there's the crux of the problem. Honda has shown nothing of interest to the consensus of car enthusiasts. How many years have passed, and how many disappointing designs have we seen? Too darn many. You can only cry wolf so many times. Every time I see a 'New NSX' thread, I cringe in preparation for the ugliness that is to be revealed. How sad is that?

Honda needs to follow Audi's lead to produce a car that is priced in line with the R8. If Audi can sell out R8s at around $120k, why can't Honda make an NSX that betters its performance and appearance for a little less money? It's not the Audi name that is selling these cars. And it's not like we're all in love with the R8 based on its appearance alone; much like the GT-R, there are certain awkward design elements. Objectively speaking, I would not say that either car has beautiful lines like an Aston, Ferrari, or even the original NSX. But we overlook these shortcomings, since it's how these cars drive that shapes our perception. Honda simply needs to find a design that looks good (or at least not repulsive) and make it perform.

Sorry, but I won't hold my breath.

You bring up a good point about the GT-R. We are only getting 2k copies in the USA, so it SHOULD sell out, even at 70-80k and markups. We will find out in the next few months how well it does sell.

Ghosen will not build a car if it will not be profitable, the business case was made to sell the GT-R worldwide and clearly, make it DESTROY just about anything on the road.

The performance figures of the GT-R are just staggering and you can drive it everyday and its as low of a price you will get.

Honestly I don't know how Nissan did it. For all intents and purposes, they have changed the game. If I had an Enzo or Murchialago or Saleen S7 I would be crapping bricks if a GT-R pulled up next to me:D:D

It is CLEAR though, that Nissan was FOCUSED on what the GT-R will be. A 911 Turbo killer nearly 1/2 the price.

That is exactly what Acura and the NSX team lacks. Focus. Will it be a GT? Will it be a new NSX? What are its targets? What will it look like?

Your points on the R8 are on the money. :thumbup::thumbup:

Here is some little known trivia with the original design of the NSX back in the late 80s. There were many running prototypes with different engines. There was a NA V10, a V8, the NA V6, and I believe there may have been a turbo V6 but can't be sure. I'd have to check my NSX books again. Anyway, that is how much R&D they put into the original NSX. They tried it all and settled on a VTEC V6 for its size, weight and power balance. If the new designers put half the time they did on the original NSX as they are in the new NSX they would actually come up with something decent. However, they don't want to invest in making another exotic car. They want to make a mass market, appeal to the majority cookie cutter been there done that type of car. Nothing special. Everyone has seen and admired front engine RWD V10 cars for decades now. Bringing another car like that into the world is nothing special.


Chris what is so obvious too is how FOCUSED the NSX team was on the car. If Gordan Murray changed some things on the F1 (arguably the greatest car ever created) b/c of the NSX, there isn't more to be said.

Now I do think part of the problem is peoples expectations. This is not 1990. In 1990, no one say this bullet coming. The NSX as we know work up EVERYONE from Porsche to Ferrari.

Well its 2008 and they are awake as is pretty much everyone. It seems the GT-R has shaken things up from a performance/price standpoint (styling is too over the top for some whereas the NSX was beautiful).

Even the Lexus LF-A, I don't think it can really "shock" anyone outside of maybe blending Lexus luxury and features.

The competition is so intense today its hard to make a car that just :eek2::eek2: everyone!

I'm nervous enough about Lexus selling a car for $180,000. I really don't think its the proper time for Acura to do so. Like Mike pointed out, Acura has no offering in the premium luxury sedan category. It's flagship RL competes with the midsize executive sedans... and it has a hard enough time selling in that segement. Lexus has proven they can sell a car for $120,000 against the speculation by many that they would fail. Now between the two, who do you think honestly has a better chance of selling a $180,000 sports car? 1.) The company that is well known for selling $40,000 cars but struggling to sell one for $50,000; or 2.) A top selling luxury brand who can match sales monthly with what many consider to be the best car in the world (LS vs S-Class... this month the LS outsold the S-Class by 200 units). To play in the 6-digits game, superb engineering alone does not cut it. Heck, even to play in the $70,000 game superb engineering alone does not cut it (e.g. Phaeton). If either DOES have a chance of selling a car for $180,000, I'm putting money on Lexus every day of the week.

I also agree on Mike... I think the NSX replacement should be an evolution of the old one... not a revolution. One of the problems with the NSX as far as public appeal was that it was low on its power compared to others (mind not that it had and still has an absolutely phenomenal chassis). If they had stuck with something similar to the HSC concept + V10... I think they could have tried to sell that car for at least $100-120,000.

Also, Toyota has been putting R&D into the LF-A for years now. Honda cannot even get a design down that doesn't cause a wave of public nausea and unrest. How are they going to come up with something with the looks and performance of a proper Ferrari-alternative by 2010???? Maybe my life would be a lot less stressful if I took a hit of whatever the Acura spokesperson is smokin....

Exactly, could not have said it better myself. :thumbup::thumbup: