Luxury cars ditching V8 engines ...

http://i.l.cnn.net/money/2008/01/29/autos/rise_of_the_v6/2009_lincoln_mks.03.jpg
2009 Lincoln MKS will offer a hi-tech V6 engine, but a V8 will not be an option.

V8's luxury rumble grows fainter

Newer luxury cars are shifting toward smaller, more sophisticated engines for power.

By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com staff writer

January 30 2008: 4:40 PM EST


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- When Ford's new flagship Lincoln sedan, the MKS, goes on sale later this year it will be available with all-wheel-drive, a six-speed transmission and plenty of rear-seat legroom. But one feature usually found on full-size luxury cars will not be available on the MKS at any price: a V8 engine.

That might seem a risky step for a brand that's supposed to be undergoing a renaissance, getting back into fighting trim as a true luxury brand. For a certain segment of the market, a big luxury car just isn't a big luxury car without V8 power.

But V8 engines just aren't needed in many of these cars anymore, according to Ford and General Motors. New, more sophisticated V6s offer nearly the same performance with better fuel economy.

"End-game performance when you step on the gas is what it's all about" said Alan Hall, a Ford spokesman.

The top-end engine in the new MKS sedan, to be offered within a year of the car's launch, will be a twin-turbocharged V6 with direct gasoline injection. Turbochargers push air into the engine's cylinders for higher compression and greater power. Direct injection pushes fuel directly into the cylinder at high pressure.

Combining the technologies creates more compression that allows the engine, Ford says, to put out as much power as a V8 while using only slightly more fuel than a non-turbocharged V6.

Shifting tastes
GM is already seeing lesser V8 demand in its luxury cars. Last year, they were under the hood of about 26% of Cadillac STS sedans sold. This year, V8s accounted for just 17% of STS sales, according to data from Power Information Network.

That shift coincides with the introduction of GM's new V6 engine with direct fuel injection that can produce a maximum of 302 horsepower compared to 320 from the V8.

Cadillac spokesman David Caldwell cites consumer interest in the technology rather than just fuel economy difference as the main reason for the shift. The V6 gets about one mile per gallon more than the V8, according to EPA estimates.

"I think these are consumers that are more technology-savvy than they used to be and they understand that this is a really premium V6," he said.

Other car brands having been seeing similar shifts, according to Power Information Networks data. Buyers of the Chrysler 300, Mercedes-Benz E-class and the Cadillac SRX crossover SUV, which all offer V6 and V8 versions, are shifting away from V8s toward V6s.

Luxury cars present an interesting case because their engine power is entirely discretionary. They won't be used to tow trailers, and their buyers aren't deeply affected by rising gas prices. They can afford V8s - it's all about whether or not they want them.

The broad shift indicates that an interest in saving gas is partly a consideration, said Michael Omotos, an analyst with J.D. Power and Associates. Improved V6 performance clears the way for customers to make that choice without sacrifice, he said. "If you can get 300 horsepower out of a V6, what's the point of going for 340 out of the V8?"

Meanwhile, the growing environmental movement provides an added push for buyers to move to smaller engines, he said, even if they can easily afford the higher cost and fuel consumption of a V8.

V8 will stay
Like Ford, GM is also considering a smaller turbocharged V6 engine in some Cadillacs. That would improve performance further and widen the fuel economy gap compared with similarly-powered V8s.

But V8 engines aren't about to go away altogether, industry sources say. "While we have seen the demand for V8 engines softening, we haven't seen it go down to zero, either," said Winegarden.

There will still be certain vehicle types in which V8s will be a must-have. Big pickups and SUVs will need them for their low-speed towing and hauling power.

The shift in luxury cars toward smaller engines is good news for an auto industry facing stricter fuel economy standards. It shows that even customers who can have it all are willing to embrace smaller engines and somewhat less horsepower as long they don't have to sacrifice too much.

"It's about getting what you want," Cadlillac's Caldwell said. "That's why you're buying a luxury car to begin with. http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/29/autos/rise_of_the_v6/index.htm

Oh man, first Cadillac now Lincoln??? They're still gonna need the v8 for their suv's... I can't imagine someone getting a V6 Escalade or Navigator lol.

Ooof. The AWD V6 STS gets 17/26 vs. the V8 AWD's 14/21. Yeouch. Not to mention that the V8 is even close to putting down the kind of power that an LS600h does, though it is quite a bit cheaper.

So, will the trend have turbo/supercharged V6s replace naturally aspirated V8s? :confused:

man ... i still think the V8 should be an option ... just maybe dont make the cars that are going to sit on the lot in a V8 or something ... but i think taking it away is stupid ... as i said in another thread: 'luxury is about excess' ... people buying a luxury car want the option for the excess reguardless of how efficient it may or may not be

... people buying a luxury car want the option for the excess reguardless of how efficient it may or may not be

And thats apparently only 17% of STS buyers.

And thats apparently only 17% of STS buyers.

yea and if you are one of those 17% and you want a V8 in your car, maybe now you will buy a different car. it's not like GM will not be making V8s at all, so it's not like the resources just arent available

Article is VERY premature. Lincoln is barely a luxury anything, sorry. Them ditching V-8s means nothing. Caddy ditching V-8s means a little more.

Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.

Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?


Ridiculous and an excuse for companies without a V-8.

Get used to it, guys. We'll see some V8s and V10s still left, perhaps in large trucks and SUV's designed for towing, and in a few ultra-hi-performance sports models, but the general trend in engine size will be down. It may not be something that a lot of car enthusiasts will want to see, but the political and market realities of today's world will simply force it. A number of you have criticized Acura for not developing a V8 with RWD, but perhaps Acura was already a little ahead of the ball game.

It could temporarily drive up the price of used cars with V8s, for those determined to have them, but even then it's only a matter of time.....engines only last so long, and many owners will not want to bother having them rebuilt or with major repairs when they start burning a lot of oil or can no longer pass emissions tests.

I think in a couple years you are going to see Mercedes, BMW, Audi, bringing over 6 cylinder versions of their flagship sedans and coupes like the S class, A8, 7 series, SL, CL, 6 series, etc that are available in Europe and other countries. I also see in mid lux cars in the future v8 will be special order options and not really on the lots anymore. Turbo, supercharged, hybrid v6, deisel powerplants will become much more popular in luxury/sports car makes. They are also going to get smaller and lighter by using lighter exotic material. Big SUVs and Pickups will take the biggest hit with these new mpg regulations. Unless companies come up with new technology that makes their v8s much more fuel efficient, v8 vehicles are going to become pretty rare in the future. Ferrari and Lamborgini are probrably scrambling to come up with some way to deal with this as their lineup is not going to cut it with these new regulations.

Article is VERY premature. Lincoln is barely a luxury anything, sorry. Them ditching V-8s means nothing. Caddy ditching V-8s means a little more.

Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.

Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?


Ridiculous and an excuse for companies without a V-8.

Exactly what i was going to say, I doubt 70 year olds need the v8's anyway, or would care to much.

I think in a couple years you are going to see Mercedes, BMW, Audi, bringing over 6 cylinder versions of their flagship sedans and coupes like the S class, A8, 7 series, SL, CL, 6 series, etc that are available in Europe and other countries. I also see in mid lux cars in the future v8 will be special order options and not really on the lots anymore. Turbo, supercharged, hybrid v6, deisel powerplants will become much more popular in luxury/sports car makes. They are also going to get smaller and lighter by using lighter exotic material. Big SUVs and Pickups will take the biggest hit with these new mpg regulations. Unless companies come up with new technology that makes their v8s much more fuel efficient, v8 vehicles are going to become pretty rare in the future. Ferrari and Lamborgini are probrably scrambling to come up with some way to deal with this as their lineup is not going to cut it with these new regulations.
Historically, people that want a V-8/V-10/V-12 continue to buy them, no matter what happens with oil or the economy. Just looking at V-8 SUVs, well people still buy them and gas has tripled in 8 years. V-8 sedans have NEVER sold better.

Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.

Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.

Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.

Historically, people that want a V-8/V-10/V-12 continue to buy them, no matter what happens with oil or the economy. Just looking at V-8 SUVs, well people still buy them and gas has tripled in 8 years. V-8 sedans have NEVER sold better.

Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.

Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.

Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.

Well said :thumbup:

I never understood why biggest of cars usually had the biggest of motors. Seemed like an oxy moron to me. One would think that you would want some to make something small and nible go fast, not large and boat like. I say that if a company is worried about having efficient engines, but also having a V8 they bring back smaller displacement V8s. No harm in that considering the advancements in technology.

Historically, people that want a V-8/V-10/V-12 continue to buy them, no matter what happens with oil or the economy. Just looking at V-8 SUVs, well people still buy them and gas has tripled in 8 years. V-8 sedans have NEVER sold better.

Some people change but for the most part, they still sell. Germans used to have their V-6 flagships here but stopped selling them based on "image" not on gas prices.

Again, Lexus has one of the smartest management teams today. They brought the GS 450h which destroyed the old GS 430 in performance and fuel economy. They had the opportunity to keep it on top the Lexus GS lineup and drop the V-8.

Some speculated the V-8 GS was dead. I never did and posted you simply NEED a V-8 to be taken serious, no matter if you sell 3 or 12. Once the Germans have it, you have to have it for the most part. Thus the GS 460 is here.

I don't think the decisions by luxury/sports car automakers to use more 6 cylinders and more fuel efficient vehicles will be because of high gas prices or consumer trends but more with increasing regulations that just will not allow them to have as many 8,10,12 cylinder vehicles and force them to sell more smaller engined lighter fuel efficient vehicles. I know higher end luxury/sports car consumers are not too concerned with fuel economy in their expensive cars nor do I think that those type of cars should be regulated as they are not popular enough to make a big impression on fuel economy. What is going to make them have to change is more stringent fuel economy standards like the 35mpg average standard that was just passed and will be implemented I think around 2020. Companies like Mercedes, Lamborgini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc who sell mostly larger engined, heavier, cars with pretty low mpg are going to be hit the hardest with new regulations, penalties, and taxes which is why I think you are going to see them offering 6 cylinders in the US on cars that they don't offer that option right now like the S class, A8, 7 series, 6, series, SL, CL, CLS, etc. I don't see powerful v8's,v10's,v12's dissappearing no matter how expensive gas gets because there will always be a niche market for them but I do see luxury automakers cutting back on 8 cylinders for their more popular cars (E class, 5 series, GS, M35/45, etc) to meet regulations and make 8 cylinders more of expensive special orders then having a bunch on the lots. They will have to sell alot more fuel efficient cars to make up for the unfuel efficient models/engines they have. They will focus more on getting power out of their 6 cylinders through turbo, supercharger, deisel, hybrid and making cars smaller/lighter, while making them much more fuel efficient then 8 cylinders for these new fuel economy regulations.

High gas prices may not affect some people, but it will definitely factor into
my next car purchase. As much as I like V8's, there is also something to
be said about not needlessly burning fuel and money.

I would love to see if they can build a bigger AWD GS450h (with a reasonable trunk)
and still have decent fuel economy.

Get used to it, guys. We'll see some V8s and V10s still left, perhaps in large trucks and SUV's designed for towing, and in a few ultra-hi-performance sports models, but the general trend in engine size will be down. It may not be something that a lot of car enthusiasts will want to see, but the political and market realities of today's world will simply force it. A number of you have criticized Acura for not developing a V8 with RWD, but perhaps Acura was already a little ahead of the ball game.

It could temporarily drive up the price of used cars with V8s, for those determined to have them, but even then it's only a matter of time.....engines only last so long, and many owners will not want to bother having them rebuilt or with major repairs when they start burning a lot of oil or can no longer pass emissions tests.

I really admire honda/acura for remaining environmentally and ecologically conscious. They have consistantly maintained an ecological and efficiency oriented approach for all their consumer engines/cars. I mean, they create some of the top F1 racing engines, they could EASILY drop some high powered v8's if they so wanted.

They dropped the ball on moving to battery hybrids though, where Toyota has the lead. Kudos to Toyota for setting the bar there

I would love to see if they can build a bigger AWD GS450h (with a reasonable trunk)
and still have decent fuel economy.

I'd be happy with a GS400h.

I don't think the decisions by luxury/sports car automakers to use more 6 cylinders and more fuel efficient vehicles will be because of high gas prices or consumer trends but more with increasing regulations that just will not allow them to have as many 8,10,12 cylinder vehicles and force them to sell more smaller engined lighter fuel efficient vehicles. I know higher end luxury/sports car consumers are not too concerned with fuel economy in their expensive cars nor do I think that those type of cars should be regulated as they are not popular enough to make a big impression on fuel economy. What is going to make them have to change is more stringent fuel economy standards like the 35mpg average standard that was just passed and will be implemented I think around 2020. Companies like Mercedes, Lamborgini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc who sell mostly larger engined, heavier, cars with pretty low mpg are going to be hit the hardest with new regulations, penalties, and taxes which is why I think you are going to see them offering 6 cylinders in the US on cars that they don't offer that option right now like the S class, A8, 7 series, 6, series, SL, CL, CLS, etc. I don't see powerful v8's,v10's,v12's dissappearing no matter how expensive gas gets because there will always be a niche market for them but I do see luxury automakers cutting back on 8 cylinders for their more popular cars (E class, 5 series, GS, M35/45, etc) to meet regulations and make 8 cylinders more of expensive special orders then having a bunch on the lots. They will have to sell alot more fuel efficient cars to make up for the unfuel efficient models/engines they have. They will focus more on getting power out of their 6 cylinders through turbo, supercharger, deisel, hybrid and making cars smaller/lighter, while making them much more fuel efficient then 8 cylinders for these new fuel economy regulations.

Thing is, V-8s make up a very small part of car sales. Do you NEED TT V-6s? If you think about it, selling MORE V-6s probably=just as much pollution as having less V-8s.

I don't know why so many are just stuck on killing large car engines, they are a SMALL part of sales and a minuscule part of the pollution problem.

We want to save the planet, how about a jumbo jet idling at the airport or hell, burning trash in the backyard.

This looks like another EXCUSE non-players or afterthought companies promote to not have a V-8 or bigger.

Toyota/Lexus is as environmentally friendly as they come. If Lexus has multiple V-8s
4.7
5.7
4.3
4.6
5.0

V-8 engines are NOT going anywhere.:)

Oh man, first Cadillac now Lincoln??? They're still gonna need the v8 for their suv's... I can't imagine someone getting a V6 Escalade or Navigator lol.

haha I can't imagine that either. Even the aviator has a 4.6L V8, and it made 2 hp more than the Navi's 5.4L V8 (2nd Gen).

I don't see V8 engine in luxury cars going away. A Turbo V6 can get better gas mileage but it doesn;t mean that the buyers will be getting that mileage out of the car. They will really drive the car whether it's making NA 300 V8 HP or TT 300 V6 HP.

I agree that with today's advanced V-6 engines, V-8's are no longer needed in cars. Big trucks and SUV's, yes, but not sedans.

They'll still be nice to have but let's face it, do you really need much more than 300hp in a sedan ? Go ahead and drive a 300hp V-6 such as an Acura RL at it's potential and you'll be in jail before the next exit comes around.

I have a V-8 in my '93 SC and it has "only" 250hp. That's average or considered weak for some of today's V-6's. Hell, Camry's and Accord's now have more HP than my V-8 SC!!! :eek2: And my car is FAST!

I've already decided that my next car will be a 4-cylinder. For those that would never buy one, then you may continue sacrificing to pay for loads of gas.

I don't know why so many are just stuck on killing large car engines, they are a SMALL part of sales and a minuscule part of the pollution problem.



It's not me, Mike. You know how I am.....I like as many car and engine choices as possible. I grew up with cars in an in an era when gas was cheap (though gas in America today is actually no more expensive when you figure in inflation and average incomes), straight-sixes were considered econoboxes, the only American four-cylinder on the market was the Pontiac Tempest wth a CURVED driveshaft and rear-mount transmission, and the majority of the car market was V8's.

Today, however, we just live in a different world. It's not us here on CL trying to make V8's obsolete, but political and economic realities. In the early/mid 1970's, the new emission laws forced power cutbacks, unleaded fuel, and catalysts, but did not necessarily affect engine size. Then, a few years later, car and engine sizes DID start to shrink as CAFE gas mileage rules started to tighten. Now, after some 30 years, they are once again tightening...but this time they will affect V8's more than in the past, because in the past trucks and SUV's were not affected as much.....now they are. The new round of CAFE laws will also lose some of the loopholes that allowed automakers to keep big V8 equipped cars in production, like Ford did with the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis......Ford was able to avoid CAFE fines by outsourcing enough of the parts to keep it classified as "foreign" car and not making it part of the domestic fleet that the official mileage averages were based on. Those loopholes will now be gone....along with similiar ones. The Crown Vic will remain accessable only to police and some taxi firms....and the Town Car only to limo firms. The future of the Grand Marquis is unclear.

If you want to blame someone, you can thank Congress for passing the new round of CAFE laws, and Bush for signing it.

If you want to blame someone, you can thank Congress for passing the new round of CAFE laws, and Bush for signing it.

But it was neccessary. I mean we could be having the same debate 20 years from now, with the oil supply dwindling, gas at $10/gal., the air a little more polluted. Anyone who thinks that the oil is going to be around forever needs to have a reality check.



I'd also like to point out that alot of people who drive Lincolns are older and not your typical driving enthusiast. Older people tend not to drive at high speeds or accelerate quickly as Im sure you are all aware. So this argument that people will drive a TT V6 just as hard as a V8 may be true for a select few, but for the majority it will be saving fuel thanks to a smaller displacement, rather than have having an uncessary extra 2 cylinders. I think you could same the same about many STS/DTS buyers. Having a V8 at that ages is about status or prestige (unless youre buying a Vette), not about flexing one's automotive muscles.

Its not like Ford or GM is trying to take the fun away. But they are facing reality and offering more practical alternatives.

Now if BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi ditch V-8s, then the article has some fire to it.

Ridiculous. If the industry LEADERS continue to make V-8s, if Lexus just debuted the updated V-8 in the GS, what makes people think V-8s are dying?

Er, sales numbers? The 535i and GS350 have made the V8 versions pretty obsolete.

Lexus intro'd the GS460 so they can stop making the old engine for one thing and maybe they hoped it would bump up sales, but that doesn't seem to have made any difference as far as I know (especially since they detuned it :rolleyes:).

Article is VERY premature. Lincoln is barely a luxury anything, sorry.

I was thinking the same thing. Since when as Lincoln been luxury? Cadillac doesn't exactly hit the mark either...

I didn't even know Lincoln was a luxury car with a V8. :D

I guess U.S. Presidents didn't even have a luxury brand as their official rides :D ;)

I really admire honda/acura for remaining environmentally and ecologically conscious. They have consistantly maintained an ecological and efficiency oriented approach for all their consumer engines/cars. I mean, they create some of the top F1 racing engines, they could EASILY drop some high powered v8's if they so wanted.

They dropped the ball on moving to battery hybrids though, where Toyota has the lead. Kudos to Toyota for setting the bar there

1. Honda is environmentally conscious, Acura hasn't sold/presented anything with "Green" in mind.
2. If it was THAT simple, don't you think they would have at least one V-8 years ago?
3. I think Honda is going to turn it up a notch with Hydrogen/Fuel Cells/Hybrids. I think efficiency, I think Honda and they do small cars pretty much better than anyone.

Er, sales numbers? The 535i and GS350 have made the V8 versions pretty obsolete.

Lexus intro'd the GS460 so they can stop making the old engine for one thing and maybe they hoped it would bump up sales, but that doesn't seem to have made any difference as far as I know (especially since they detuned it :rolleyes:).

Logically, those new V-6s are incredible and on par with the old gen V-8s. Emotionally, there is nothing like the sound or low end torque or smoothness of a V-8.
300hp V-6 or V-8, give me the V-8, 9 times out of 10.