View Full Version : Toyota Prius: Next Chapter Opens in January


Overclocker
04-29-08, 12:21 PM
http://www.autoobserver.com/images/2008/04/15/2007_toyota_prius_240.jpg
http://www.autoobserver.com/images/2008/04/15/06toyotaphev_204.jpg

Imagine a Toyota Prius, but faster, cleaner and greener. Such a car is coming soon and will launch at the Detroit auto show in January 2009.

America has fallen for the Prius in a big way, no doubt about that. Five years on, through an extraordinary combination of style, engineering and marketing, Toyota's fuel sipping hybrid remains the absolute gold standard for eco cars in the industry.

The next generation, however, has all the makings of an even bigger hit. That's because it will be a touch bigger so offering more space. It will come with stronger 1.8-liter hybrid performance yet at the same time boast even better economy and class leading emissions, if early word is correct.

In other words, everything Americans like now about the Prius, including its unique design and crusading eco image, but in a 'smarter,' more high-grade package.

Yes, 2009 marks the point at which the Prius shifts gears and moves up to the next league. The Prius up until now has been just one model but as previously reported in AutoObserver, Toyota plans to spice up the action with a range of different Prius models as it closes in on its bid to be making 1 million hybrids per year by the early 2010s.

While it's still of course firmly under wraps, a well-placed Toyota source says the next generation Prius looks good. "Still Prius-eque, but a bit bigger and more solid looking."

Sources suggest that the next Prius will be some three to four inches longer and about an inch wider, but crucially will not be significantly heavier.

Environmentalists love the smooth, seamless power delivery of the Prius, its ability to run on clean electric power, its strong economy numbers and, not least, the pure, earth-friendly image it gives off.

All that will continue, with two provisos. One, Toyota will re-engineer the Prius' unique gas engine/electric motor/battery powertrain to make it more efficient, more tightly packaged and to extend the driving range using battery the electric motor.

Two, Toyota will install a bigger 1797 cc four cylinder gas engine to cope with the bigger body and counter criticism in some quarters of the weedy performance of the current 1.5.

With the new 1.8, output's expected to shift from today's 75 bhp to a more rousing
100 bhp. This together with a next generation electric motor should lift combined system output from the current 110 bhp to some 160 bhp, sources predict.

As such, the next Prius will be significantly faster, especially off the line and in low to mid range. But advances with the motor, battery and recharging inside Toyota's trick Hybrid Synergy Drive means economy won't be adversely affected.

Quite the reverse, in fact. While the current Prius posts a class-leading 35.5 km/l in Japan's 10.15-mode fuel cycle (equal to 83.5 mpg in the US), Toyota's reported target with the Mk 3 Prius is a stellar 40 km/l (94 mpg) in the same cycle.

Hold the champagne, however. Japan's 10.15 mode is now an old system, far from the modern global standard and especially kind to hybrids in the way it operates (letting them run for an extended period on electric power, which helps deliver wondrous fuel mileage numbers).

Different markets around the world have their own take on exactly how green and frugal the Prius actually is. America, for instance, rates the 2008 Prius at a far more real world-like 48 mpg/45 mpg/46 mpg for city/highway/combined.

Japan's 10.15 mode, nevertheless, while not perfect, does give an idea of the kind of efficiency improvements we can expect with the next Prius (ie some 10 per cent-plus) and suggests, perhaps, that America's Combined rating for the 2010 Prius will lift up to the 50-55 mpg mark.

What about C02? Here and now, the Prius is good for 65g/km under Japan's 10.15-mode banner (but 106g/km in Europe). Nobody outside Toyota knows yet what the Mk 3 Prius will deliver but it will still be one of the cleanest cars on the planet. Indeed, it would be something if the next Prius didn't produce another big statement on CO2.

Toyota meantime is also working on Plug-in versions of the next Prius, of course. The idea06toyotaphev_204 of being able to recharge the Prius' battery pack from a standard domestic socket to extend the vehicle's driving range in electric mode is the next step along way to lifting the Prius into yet another eco stratosphere.

Tests are now under way on European, American and Japanese roads with a fleet of prototypes and Toyota has already announced that it plans to launch sales of Plug In Hybrids (fitted with state-of-the-art lithium-ion batteries) to fleet buyers in the US and elsewhere by 2010.

However, plug-in won't come at launch in 2009 and as widely reported, Toyota has also put back the planned intro of state-of-the-art lithium-ion batteries for the standard Prius due to worries over reliability, pricing, supply and other factors.

Lightweight and high power, Li-Io is the definitely future, however, and Toyota has also said that it is actively now looking into mass production of the batteries in Japan together with Panasonic.

So to start with, the Mk 3 Prius will kick off with nickel-metal hydride batteries, as now. But the battery pack and indeed the whole system will be more efficient and tightly packaged.

Eventually, there will be two body styles, according to a Toyota source. The minivan-style hybrid powered Hybrid X concept from Geneva 2007 could perhaps provide a few clues in that direction.

Toyota is also planning both bigger and smaller Prius-badged models as 'Prius' starts to become an eco brand all of its own. The tiny, two-cylinder, rear-engined 1/X concept from the 2007 Tokyo Show suggests what a future mini Prius could end up looking like.

As for the 'bigger' model, Japan's Nikkei business paper has spoken of an upscale hybrid model with 2.0-3.0-liter engine which could bow as early as 2010, but that yet to be confirmed and may even appear in due course with Lexus badges.

As far as the 2009 Detroit Show intro for the next Prius, we have that from an impeccable source. Toyota president Katsuaki Watanabe himself, no less, has spoken about the NAIAS unveiling, so that surely has to be gospel.

On the production front, numbers for Prius are clearly going nowhere but up, underlining just what a major player the Prius has now become.
. Japan's Nikkei reports that Toyota plans to boost Prius manufacturing by 60 per cent to 450,000 units a year by 2009, elevating it to one of Toyota's biggest brands, alongside Corolla and Camry.

Toyota reportedly built some 280,000 Prius models worldwide in 2007, a jump of almost a third compared to 2006. The Prius is currently built in two plants in Japan and in limited numbers in China, but it's surely only a matter of time before US local production kicks off.

America, after all, has taken the lion's share of Prius sales to date. Toyota's cumulative sales from 1997-2007 bring the hybrid wonder car in at 920,687 units, with the US accounting for 525,543 units. Second, was Japan with 290,805 units.

Amid all the hoopla over the Prius, however, not everyone yet is quite sold. Critics question how economical the car really is in day-to-day driving and continue to debate the worth and all-round effectiveness of the hybrid system, particularly with highway driving. As in, does it all really pay off?

The costs involved in hybrid motoring, including a higher than normal sticker price and outlay needed to replace the battery pack (heaven forbid) have also come under scrutiny. Keen drivers note too that the Prius doesn't ride or handle particularly well and isn't that fast.

But then the Prius is a different kind of car and to date, none of these 'faults' have so far derailed it much in the showrooms or in the hearts and minds of more than half a million American buyers.

If all goes to plan, Toyota will answer these criticisms and more with the coming third generation Prius which is shaping up to be one of the most pivotal cars Japan has ever produced.

Source: http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/04/toyota-prius-ne.html

SLegacy99
04-29-08, 01:14 PM
I don't think most Prius buyers are looking for the Prius to handle like a Ferrari or accelerate like one. They're buying it for economy. I like the power bump, but I think that an increase to 140 hp would be more that sufficient. I had hoped that Toyota would get this sucker back up to the 60 MPG we saw with the old method of testing, but that doesn't appear to be the case at the moment.

Vlad_Stein
04-29-08, 01:26 PM
I don't think most Prius buyers are looking for the Prius to handle like a Ferrari or accelerate like one. They're buying it for economy. I like the power bump, but I think that an increase to 140 hp would be more that sufficient. I had hoped that Toyota would get this sucker back up to the 60 MPG we saw with the old method of testing, but that doesn't appear to be the case at the moment.

Biggest improvement is to maximize the amount of time running on batteries and not on the engine, so seems to me a plug-in is the best they could do to increase mpg.

XeroK00L
04-29-08, 01:45 PM
I don't think most Prius buyers are looking for the Prius to handle like a Ferrari or accelerate like one. They're buying it for economy. I like the power bump, but I think that an increase to 140 hp would be more that sufficient. I had hoped that Toyota would get this sucker back up to the 60 MPG we saw with the old method of testing, but that doesn't appear to be the case at the moment.Agreed. 160hp = Corolla XRS level is totally unnecessary for the Prius buyers. Prius as it is right now has good enough pick-up power from the torquey electric motor already. Toyota should have at most given the Prius their new 1.6L ZR engine in place of the 1.5L. Fuel economy is everything for the Prius.

bruce van
04-29-08, 01:55 PM
On another note, there is a very interesting article in the NY Times about health concerns with driving a hybrid. Good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/automobiles/27EMF.html

bagwell
04-29-08, 02:36 PM
I'd delay the next gen Prius until the Li-Io batteries are ready to go.

7 miles on a full charge is pretty much useless and frankly embarassing since 120 miles has already been accomplished a decade ago.

On another note, there is a very interesting article in the NY Times about health concerns with driving a hybrid. Good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/automobiles/27EMF.html

well since I sit 24 inches away from a computer for 9+ hours a day I don't think 30 mins in a hybrid could be any worse.....humm, sounds like oil company propaganda to me...wouldn't doubt it - b*stards!

XeroK00L
04-29-08, 02:42 PM
I'd delay the next gen Prius until the Li-Io batteries are ready to go.

7 miles on a full charge is pretty much useless and frankly embarassing since 120 miles has already been accomplished a decade ago.Li-ion batteries are still too costly to be viable in a mainstream market at this moment. I like the idea of a previous rumor of leaving Li-ion batteries to the Lexus-branded cars at least initially.

7 miles on a full charge... who cares. The Prius is meant to be a parallel hybrid with both the electric motor and the gasoline engine working in tandem. If you want an extended-range EV aka series hybrid, look at Chevrolet Volt that is pricing itself out of the mainstream market once again.

SLegacy99
04-29-08, 03:56 PM
Li-ion batteries are still too costly to be viable in a mainstream market at this moment. I like the idea of a previous rumor of leaving Li-ion batteries to the Lexus-branded cars at least initially.

Hmmmm, I'll have to find the break down I did a while back. The materials for Li-ion batteries do cost more than Ni-mh, however you need less of them so it evens out somewhat, but yes the Li-ions are still more costly. However, the advantage is that when Li-ion bats are defunct they are still worth something where the Ni-mh are not. But, then they wear out sooner than the Ni-Mh, though they would obviously save you more gas money. Hmmm.....

Anyway, I'd rather have a Parallel hybrid anyway. I'm just not ready to give up my ICE yet. However, if our RX had Li-ion bats instead and could say contribute 30 kw of power when highway crusing instead of the 12 kw that it does currently, that would make a jump of about 5-8 mpgs (hwy) me thinks. Not too shabby.



well since I sit 24 inches away from a computer for 9+ hours a day I don't think 30 mins in a hybrid could be any worse.....humm, sounds like oil company propaganda to me...wouldn't doubt it - b*stards!
If anything, Im more alert when driving out hybrid. Im too busy staring at the display trying to maximize my fuel economy....I mean Im focused on the road.

link13
04-29-08, 05:35 PM
It would be nice if they would chuck in some driving etiquette courses with the next gen Prius. Simple concepts like 'if you're going to drive 54 mph on the freeway, do it in the right lane.'

RocketGuy3
04-29-08, 05:43 PM
Biggest improvement is to maximize the amount of time running on batteries and not on the engine, so seems to me a plug-in is the best they could do to increase mpg.

Ah plug-ins... yet another technology oil companies are doing their best to fight away.

SoCalSC4
04-29-08, 05:55 PM
That's a big 10-4. Nice to see the Prius being upgraded and more refined.

If only they could do the same for the humans that buy them.

The next generation could just be called the Toyota "Pious."

SLegacy99
04-29-08, 06:05 PM
I feel like that much HP is venturing toward Camry hybrid territory. Which isn't the purpose of the Prius.

j stuff
04-29-08, 10:04 PM
Would be great if they downsized the car a tad with a yaris sized hybrid selling for around $15k.. that would kill the market

1SICKLEX
04-29-08, 10:07 PM
What struck me was they said a Lexus version "may come" but Lexus has told us we will see it in January as well.

Otherwise, good article.

bagwell
04-30-08, 11:32 AM
Would be great if they downsized the car a tad with a yaris sized hybrid selling for around $15k.. that would kill the market


a big +1 on that!

of course if Toyota built it, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shell/Chevron/Exxon buy them all and have them crushed; then buy the factory and burn it.

XeroK00L
04-30-08, 11:35 AM
a big +1 on that!

of course if Toyota built it, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shell/Chevron/Exxon buy them all and have them crushed.+1

Whatever happened to the rumor of a standalone "Prius" brand with 3 cars of different sizes in the lineup?

spwolf
04-30-08, 02:07 PM
+1

Whatever happened to the rumor of a standalone "Prius" brand with 3 cars of different sizes in the lineup?
its in that article..

people need to understand that Camry hybrid is NA only in reality...

Prius is what rest of the world gets. Due to high cost and taxes, in Europe, Prius is more expensive than Avensis.

It will never be as affordable as Corolla, so what they are doing is making it slightly bigger, more luxurious and faster so it can replace Avensis at the same price.

And while they are at it, they are upping mpg by 10%, despite all of that.

New 1.8 ZR engine is perfect choice - it will get better highway mileage than old 1.5 and more performance.

spwolf
04-30-08, 02:13 PM
I don't think most Prius buyers are looking for the Prius to handle like a Ferrari or accelerate like one. They're buying it for economy. I like the power bump, but I think that an increase to 140 hp would be more that sufficient. I had hoped that Toyota would get this sucker back up to the 60 MPG we saw with the old method of testing, but that doesn't appear to be the case at the moment.
who cares what the EPA got on their old testing - same people still get the same mileage on their same routes.

Our Prius really has good mpg numbers. If they can make it bigger so it can fit more people and luggage, faster so you can compare it to nice 2.0 diesel and go on longer trips, and yet get 10% better mpg, thats all they need to do.

I dont care about lithium ion unless it is ready. Prius is currently BY FAR the most reliable powertrain that Toyota has, and I would really love it if it stays that way.

Nextourer
05-04-08, 07:53 PM
Finally it's getting a new engine. The 1NZ is showing its age.

Don't forget guys, the ZR engine (not that it's confirmed but it's the most likely candidate) can be outfitted with direct injection and valvematic. In other words, they may use the Prius as testing bed for valvematic here in the US (Only the Toyota Noah has valvematic at the moment and it's a 2.0 litre 3ZR).

That means, even if Toyota used the Corolla/Matrix/xD engine (2ZR) 1.8 litre engine on its own, it would be more fuel efficient because of the extra technology over the standard dual VVT-i in the Corolla/Matrix/xD. Then add the Atkinson cycle and detune the engine for less hp and more fuel economy and you'll have a fantastic next gen Prius. Note that the Camry/HiHy uses a more powerful battery (288V vs 201V) and the inverter steps up to 650V vs. 500V in the Prius. Add in more powerful electric motors (they can be more tightly wound and therefore made smaller) and you can see where all the power is coming from yet fuel economy increases.