View Full Version : MT Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison


speedflex
05-19-08, 03:50 PM
Private Reserve Cabs: Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison

By Ron Kiino
Photography by Brian Vance


"I don't usually care much for wine," blurts technical editor Kim Reynolds after swigging a sip of the 2005 Jours de Bonheur, a 2007 release from Demetria Estate, "but this pinot noir is very nice." Owners Sandra and John Zahoudanis and winemaker Michael Roth see to the day-to-day demands at Demetria, a small winery in Central California's Santa Ynez Valley that produces a modest output of around 7500 cases per year. According to Sandra, renowned winemaker Andrew Murray used to reside on the estate, which sits a stone's throw from the Firestone and Fess Parker vineyards as well as the former residence of an infamous moonwalker. "Just over that ridge is Jacko's Neverland Ranch," she says, pointing south toward rolling hills that, due to an especially wet winter, resemble a mound of avocados. Following a few seconds of awkward silence, she poses a most appropriate question: "So, who wants another taste?"


On this warm spring day, Reynolds is treating his palate and shnoz-stimuli generally subjected to the earthy and bold blend known as Starbucks Sumatra-to intense flavors of cherry and raspberry and aromas of cinnamon and lavender. "Wow, I really like this pinot," he repeats to the group, which includes your scribe, editor at large Arthur St. Antoine, road-test editor Scott Mortara, and photographer Brian Vance, all of whom are enjoying the fruits of Demetria's labor. "Good thing we're done driving for the day," proclaims St. Antoine, who, after eight hours of zipping around Santa Ynez's challenging country roads, is already feeling the effects of multiple, generously poured samples.


Of the aforementioned sommeliers, er, editors, the most noteworthy is Reynolds, who's been brought along not just for his quick wit, dry humor, and uncanny ability to assess a car's nuances, but also because he authored the previous sport-sedan shindig ("Sideways," November 2005), in which the BMW 545i, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M45, and Mercedes E500 let their juices flow in nearby Paso Robles. The gold-medal ribbon? Wine steward Reynolds awarded that to the 545i. For this taste test, save for a losing vehicle from the prior group receiving a complete redesign or a new V-8, invitations were not extended; thus, nay to the STS and M45 but yea to the invigorated E550 Benz. Naturally, the BMW, now in 550i guise, was summoned to defend its title, with two robust newcomers-the Lexus GS 460 and Jaguar XF Supercharged-thrown in to challenge for editors' pick. Who'll garner the gold this go-around? To the presses!

Swirl

Based on color of attire, the GS, drenched in a metallic zinfandel, seems dressed for success. But looking at the scores, its chances of winning appear about as rosy as chardonnay. Not only does the GS post the slowest 0-to-60 and quarter-mile times, but its braking, lateral acceleration, and figure-eight numbers are all bested by the BMW and Jaguar. Granted, those figures-certainly the 5.6-second 0-to-60 time-still represent a speedy and agile machine (it scoots quicker than an Audi TT 3.2 Quattro and circles more swiftly than a BMW 335i Coupe), but compared with the best in this test, it pales. Then again, numbers tell only half the story.


"Though this is the slowest car here," notes St. Antoine, "it isn't a slow car. The engine is brilliantly smooth and pulls hard with a vibrant and engaging snarl." That motor is the same, buttery 4.6-liter V-8 used in the flagship LS, detuned to 342 horses for duty in the smaller GS. To optimize power flow, the 4.6 pairs with the group's only eight-speed auto, which delivers quick, seamless shifts when rolling along at anything but breakneck speeds. Problem is, when it comes time to break necks, the tranny doesn't keep up, endlessly hunting for that ideal gear (remember, there are eight of them) and delivering lethargic shifts when in manual mode. Paddle shifters? "Too bad there are none as in the Jag and Benz," observes Reynolds, while Mortara takes it one step further: "Paddles would transform this car," adding, "as would 19-inch wheels with more aggressive tires." Unfortunately, our GS has come with 18s wearing run-flats, stiff shoes that do little to offset the already firm suspension.


Looking at the wine glass half full, the GS's variable-gear-ratio steering and active anti-roll bars do deliver commendable chassis behavior and turn-in response, although they numb road feel more than we'd prefer. Nonetheless, there's much to like and admire with the GS. Our connoisseurs judge its interior as the most user-friendly, its back seat the most comfortable for two, and its EPA fuel economy and as-tested price the most appealing. With the votes in, though, the Lexus is akin to bringing sake to a cabernet competition. Sure, it's technically wine, but it doesn't really match up, lacking the requisite flavor, color, and vivacity to stir the judges.

Sniff

There's no doubt the 550i looks like a champ, what with its aggressive front and rear fascias and 19-inch split-spoke wheels, all of which impart a particular M5 wickedness. Speaking of its steroidal sibling, the 550i isn't that much slower than the M, blitzing to 60 in 4.8 seconds and the quarter in 13.3 at 105.1 mph. Credit goes to BMW's turbine-smooth 360-horse, 4.8-liter V-8 and the group's only manual, an effortless albeit rubbery ZF six-speed. (We asked for the 550i's new-for-2008 six-cog "Sport" automatic that features steering-wheel paddle shifters and rpm matching for downshifts, but none was available.) While every editor would prefer to sample the auto, when the votes come down and the tumblers go up, our attention has shifted to the 550i's real strengths and weaknesses.


Unsurprisingly, the BMW, armed with active anti-roll bars and Continental summer tires, proves the sportiest of the bunch, offering the most engaging dynamics. "BMW sure knows how to put together a chassis," gushes Mortara, "this car just begs to be driven hard." St Antoine concurs, adding, "Surgical steering, with impressive feedback, nice weighting, and an agreeably quick ratio-point the wheels and they go there right now." Thus, the 550i is exceptionally fun and rewarding when slicing a serpentine stretch of asphalt, allowing us to explore the limits in a controlled, exuberant manner. Further, the ride over smooth surfaces is splendid, the car seemingly gliding along in complete serenity. And over rough roads? Better dial up the dentist.


"As soon as the asphalt cracks up, the ride shifts into hammer time-way too stiff for comfortable motoring, even if you're in attack mode," carps St. Antoine. Compared with the three-way-adjustable dampers in the Mercedes, the BMW's sole setting is significantly stiffer than even the E's tautest Sport 2 mode. Reynolds opines, "Over many areas of non-smooth surface, the car just goes into a blur." In addition to its intolerable ride over patchy pavement, the 550i disappoints with fatigue-inducing front seats, a still frustrating and unintuitive iDrive, a dark and cold cockpit, and a monster engine that somehow doesn't feel that monsterlike out on the road. Throw in a price tag that approaches 70 large, and the BMW is deemed best left in the cellar.

Sip

Similar to a three-liter double magnum of Bordeaux, the E550 isn't bashful about its no-replacement-for-displacement attitude, stomping up to the bar with 382 horses pouring from 5461 cc. Suffice it to say, the Mercedes doesn't lack punch, tying the BMW for the quickest 0-to-60 sprint and the Jag for the second-best quarter-mile time. Moreover, with 391 pound-feet available at just 2800 rpm and a telepathic 7G-Tronic seven-speed auto divvying up the torque, the Benz always feels ready to run, whether in first or seventh gear. "Barely need to change cogs, such is the V-8's torque band," notes St. Antoine. But when full command is demanded, simply click a steering-wheel paddle or nudge the gearshift from side to side. The only minor fault, as St. Antoine says, "If you're charging and click the upshift paddle, the transmission waits to execute the command until the engine reaches redline."


Tranny nitpick aside, we find a lot to love with the E. The styling, inside and out, still looks clean and classy. The adjustable Airmatic suspension can be dialed in for the optimal ride-handling compromise, be it plush or sporty-either way, the Benz never beats up its occupants and always behaves in a composed manner. "This car comes close to the others in pace, moves fluidly with no buzzy nervousness, and yet rides splendidly," concludes Reynolds, who also views the E's 10-way power driver's seat to be "the best." As for the backseat, the Mercedes treats three riders to the most accommodating and supportive bench. Thanks in part to all-season rubber with more sipes than on a snow tire, the Mercedes posts the longest braking distance, the feeblest lateral acceleration, and the slowest figure-eight time, specs that contradict the aura of our tester's optional AMG sport package. Proper summer tires, we surmise, would remedy most of these shortcomings and enliven the E's somewhat heavy steering and overall sense of weightiness.


Along with Mortara, Reynolds states he'd buy the $70,305 Benz if money were no issue. But since it is, there's a 2009 vintage that's a bit easier to swallow.

Savor

You don't have to be Stephen Hawking to calculate that Americans are a bit more smitten with the shape of Jag's new four-door fastback than they were with its bug-eyed-calzone forerunner, the S-Type. Just look at the numbers: Jag moved 1161 of the XF in its first month of sale, compared with only 3524 takers for the S-Type in all of 2007. Of course, the XF formula is more than simply a sexy, coupelike shape with hints of Aston Martin DB9-it's also about a thoroughly reworked chassis and, in our Supercharged tester, a 4.2-liter, 420-horsepower blown V-8.


Objectively, the XF SC's test results are imposing: 0 to 60 in 4.9, the quarter in 13.4 at 106.9 mph, 60 to 0 in 105 feet, lateral acceleration of 0.90 g, and the figure eight in 26.0 at 0.70 g, with the last three representing best in test. More important, subjectively, the XF is the finest Jaguar sedan we've ever driven. "A sublime automobile," asserts St. Antoine. Mortara declares, "They finally did it! Jag has made a sedan that offers more than just good looks and a strong engine." Indeed, the XF's steering feels light to the palms but provides just enough weight to relay precise feel, sharp turn-in, and exquisite linearity through the fingertips, which, by the way, get the tactile pleasure of clicking the ultra-responsive six-speed's paddle shifters, relishing rev-matching throttle blips with every downshift. This, as we discover, comes in handy when chasing game on the aptly dubbed Cat Canyon Road, a most challenging wiggle of curves and undulations. But whether the road is straight or sinuous, heavenly or harsh, the XF, riding atop CATS active dampers, always feels poised and ready to pounce.


Once nestled in the cabin, you'll want to pounce on a glass of pinot, if only it were legal. Adorned with an elegant blend of leather, wood, and aluminum, and with such techno touches as motorized air vents and gearshift, the XF's interior is classic yet modern, an English study on wheels. As tough critics, though, we constantly have something to whine about; for the XF, that would be compromised rear-seat headroom, a thirsty V-8 (we see only 14.8 mpg), and narrow front seats.

But for those who appreciate a superb sport sedan as much as a world-class wine, the XF Supercharged is the purrfect pour.

1st Place Jaguar XF supercharged
Bold, complex, luscious: a vintage worthy of celebration.

2nd Place Mercedes-Benz E550
Full-bodied and smooth: a standout effort for everyday consumption.

3rd Place BMW 550i
Strong fruits produce sharp, fast flavor, but the finish is rough.

4th Place Lexus GS 460
Commendably competent, but lacking crispness and character.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0807_luxury_sport_sedan_comparison/index.html

GFerg
05-19-08, 04:04 PM
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9606677/112_0807_01z+luxury_sport_sedans+front_view.jpg

1st Place Jaguar XF supercharged
Bold, complex, luscious: a vintage worthy of celebration.

2nd Place Mercedes-Benz E550
Full-bodied and smooth: a standout effort for everyday consumption.

3rd Place BMW 550i
Strong fruits produce sharp, fast flavor, but the finish is rough.

4th Place Lexus GS 460
Commendably competent, but lacking crispness and character.



"I don't usually care much for wine," blurts technical editor Kim Reynolds after swigging a sip of the 2005 Jours de Bonheur, a 2007 release from Demetria Estate, "but this pinot noir is very nice." Owners Sandra and John Zahoudanis and winemaker Michael Roth see to the day-to-day demands at Demetria, a small winery in Central California's Santa Ynez Valley that produces a modest output of around 7500 cases per year. According to Sandra, renowned winemaker Andrew Murray used to reside on the estate, which sits a stone's throw from the Firestone and Fess Parker vineyards as well as the former residence of an infamous moonwalker. "Just over that ridge is Jacko's Neverland Ranch," she says, pointing south toward rolling hills that, due to an especially wet winter, resemble a mound of avocados. Following a few seconds of awkward silence, she poses a most appropriate question: "So, who wants another taste?"


On this warm spring day, Reynolds is treating his palate and shnoz-stimuli generally subjected to the earthy and bold blend known as Starbucks Sumatra-to intense flavors of cherry and raspberry and aromas of cinnamon and lavender. "Wow, I really like this pinot," he repeats to the group, which includes your scribe, editor at large Arthur St. Antoine, road-test editor Scott Mortara, and photographer Brian Vance, all of whom are enjoying the fruits of Demetria's labor. "Good thing we're done driving for the day," proclaims St. Antoine, who, after eight hours of zipping around Santa Ynez's challenging country roads, is already feeling the effects of multiple, generously poured samples.


Of the aforementioned sommeliers, er, editors, the most noteworthy is Reynolds, who's been brought along not just for his quick wit, dry humor, and uncanny ability to assess a car's nuances, but also because he authored the previous sport-sedan shindig ("Sideways," November 2005), in which the BMW 545i, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M45, and Mercedes E500 let their juices flow in nearby Paso Robles. The gold-medal ribbon? Wine steward Reynolds awarded that to the 545i. For this taste test, save for a losing vehicle from the prior group receiving a complete redesign or a new V-8, invitations were not extended; thus, nay to the STS and M45 but yea to the invigorated E550 Benz. Naturally, the BMW, now in 550i guise, was summoned to defend its title, with two robust newcomers-the Lexus GS 460 and Jaguar XF Supercharged-thrown in to challenge for editors' pick. Who'll garner the gold this go-around? To the presses!


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0807_luxury_sport_sedan_comparison/index.html

knihc2008
05-19-08, 04:11 PM
The XF IS a force to be reckoned with. Now if only people would recognize it and start buying some.

SLegacy99
05-19-08, 04:16 PM
550 is my dream car. If only it were AWD. Then that would be something.

whlkev
05-19-08, 04:23 PM
repost http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356232

whlkev
05-19-08, 04:23 PM
yea.. totally expected, Lexus really isn't a driver's car :)

but then I didn't get the GS for this purpose, so it's fine

rominl
05-19-08, 04:30 PM
repost http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356232
actually this thread is original, look at time stamp :)

i expected the results too. but make no mistakes, i think lexus deserves to lose. the car with the "detuned" 460 engine is just weak compared to others.

MPLexus301
05-19-08, 05:01 PM
No surprises here...another win for Jag!

whlkev
05-19-08, 05:37 PM
actually this thread is original, look at time stamp :)

i expected the results too. but make no mistakes, i think lexus deserves to lose. the car with the "detuned" 460 engine is just weak compared to others.

your post double-hurt my feeling :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::p

rsantiago
05-19-08, 05:37 PM
Hmmm.. you can technically get the paddle shifters on the E550 if you order the AMG Package.

SLegacy99
05-19-08, 05:48 PM
Guess its a good thing that the XF is the next James Bond car. Though hopefully it will got back to Aston Martin after this as this is the last film of the 3 film deal with Ford.

knihc2008
05-19-08, 05:59 PM
The DBS is still the next Bond car.

SLegacy99
05-19-08, 06:09 PM
The DBS is still the next Bond car.

Nope. Ford didn't own Aston Martin anymore at the time of pre production. Thus they went to Jag and their new top of the line vehicle.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/10/bond-to-drive-jag-xf-in-next-flick

1SICKLEX
05-19-08, 06:29 PM
Another win for the XF. Seems Jag really did their homework here, kudos to them. The 3GS has just never fared very well in most comparos, only winning the initial Edmunds RL/M45/GS 430 comparo.

1SICKLEX
05-19-08, 06:44 PM
Looking at the wine glass half full, the GS's variable-gear-ratio steering and active anti-roll bars do deliver commendable chassis behavior and turn-in response, although they numb road feel more than we'd prefer. Nonetheless, there's much to like and admire with the GS. Our connoisseurs judge its interior as the most user-friendly, its back seat the most comfortable for two, and its EPA fuel economy and as-tested price the most appealing. With the votes in, though, the Lexus is akin to bringing sake to a cabernet competition. Sure, it's technically wine, but it doesn't really match up, lacking the requisite flavor, color, and vivacity to stir the judges.


So did this GS have the AAAS suspension? Damnit I wish they would have expanded on handling!!! Especially compared to GSs they have compared before without it.

I am also surprised they find the backseat the best for 2, as its the smallest car here and designed very coupe-like.

1SICKLEX
05-19-08, 06:49 PM
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9606692/112_0807_22z+2008_lexus_GS_460+front_three_quarter s_view.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9860242/112_0807_23z+2009_jaguar_XF_supercharged+front_thr ee_quarters_view.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9606698/112_0807_06z+2008_lexus_GS_460+side_view.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9860248/112_0807_08z+2009_jaguar_XF_supercharged+side_view .jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9606704/112_0807_11z+2008_lexus_GS_460+rear_three_quarters _view.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/sedans/9860254/112_0807_12z+2009_jaguar_XF_supercharged+rear_thre e_quarters_view.jpg

GStateOM
05-19-08, 06:49 PM
actually this thread is original, look at time stamp :)

i expected the results too. but make no mistakes, i think lexus deserves to lose. the car with the "detuned" 460 engine is just weak compared to others.
Agreed. Since we're talking sports sedans, here are the numbers

Jag XF = 0-60 in 4.9 seconds ; 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds @ 107 MPH
Benz E550 = 0-60 in 4.8 seconds ; 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds @ 105 MPH
BMW 550i = 0-60 in 4.8 seconds ; 1/4 mile in 13.3 seconds @ 105 MPH
Lexus GS460 = 0-60 in 5.6 seconds ; 1/4 mile in 14.0 seconds @ 102 MPH

Clearly, performance wise, the competition blows the detuned 4.6 GS out of the water. As a Lexus guy, I'd say its almost embarrassing to look at those numbers and think this is the Lexus alternative to these vehicles. Sure, the GS460 is faster than a GS400, but the distance between the GS460 and its competitors is far greater than the distance between the GS460 and the GS400, a car released in late 1997.

Compare a GS V8 10 years ago to a GS V8 now and you see that it's slightly quicker. However, in the same time frame, all of its competitors have gained significant performance. Heck, even the Camry has caught up in some ways to the GS. Compare a 1998 Camry V6 and a 2008 Camry V6 and it's pretty much in a different world in every aspect.

I know they are different cars made for different people, but still..

1SICKLEX
05-19-08, 06:51 PM
In those pics the GS influence is clear but the Jag looks leaner and more athletic. I love the Jag rear. Also as the review stated, the GS needs bigger wheels it seems and GET RID OF THE RUN FLATS. The Jag as 20s. It helps the cars looks.

Och
05-19-08, 06:52 PM
Did BMW update the engine in 550? I don't think its capable of running anywhere near these times.

STIG
05-19-08, 07:49 PM
The new Jag looks amazing in the pictures. Looks brilliant, I thought, until I saw one on the road.

The car just doesn't stand out very much, and it's pretty blend.

bitkahuna
05-19-08, 10:58 PM
I don't get the GS460. Quieter but not much faster (if at all? :uh:) than the GS350, yet probably not as quiet as the GS450h. Besides V8 sound, what does it offer over GS350 or GS450h?

UDel
05-20-08, 01:17 PM
I don't get the GS460. Quieter but not much faster (if at all? :uh:) than the GS350, yet probably not as quiet as the GS450h. Besides V8 sound, what does it offer over GS350 or GS450h?

If that number was credible in Car and Driver or Road and Track (forgot which one) then the GS460 is actually somehow not as quick as the GS350. The GS350AWD reportedly did 0-60 in 5.3 seconds in one test which was a good deal faster then the 430 and the 5.6 seconds for the 460. I still have trouble believing the GS350 achieved that time considering power/weight while a larger v8 with 40 more hp and more torque and a 8 speed is not as quick but it still begs the question why would you pay a bunch more for the 460 if it is slower then the GS350 and the 350 gets better mileage. I don't understand why Lexus detuned the LS motor for the GS460 especially when the GS is supposed to be sportier and more performance oriented but then again I have never understood why often many v6 Toyota sedans have more hp then v6 Lexus sedans.

The reviewers also seemed to think 8 speeds was kind of overkill and unnecessary in the GS and it may have achieved better acceleration numbers with a 6 speed auto.

1SICKLEX
05-20-08, 01:41 PM
It seems we figured out that the dual intakes on the LS 460 are simply to big to fit in the GS 460. The GS 460 has a single intake similar to the 430. This really hurt power.

The 8 speed seems to be hunting for gears, which is not a problem I've read in the LS. I wish the IS-F tranny changes made it to the GS. Also I totally agreee "WHERE ARE THE PADDLE SHIFTERS"?????

While a very good car, Lexus did not hit a home run with the 3GS. I am only hope and assume they are well aware of this and the 4GS will really take things up.

It does seem the GS 350 GS 450h and GS 460's performance are way to similar. The GS 460 gaining over 200lbs didn't help.

bagwell
05-20-08, 02:04 PM
I still like the GS for its rock solid reliability compared to these (no matter how good the others warranties are).

Price as tested
2008 BMW 550i $69,670
2009 Jaguar XF SC $65,475
2008 Lexus GS 460 $62,245
2008 Mercedes- Benz E550 $70,305

whlkev
05-20-08, 02:12 PM
wow, the side profile of the Jag looks too similar to the GS

GSteg
05-20-08, 02:21 PM
I don't understand why Lexus detuned the LS motor for the GS460 especially when the GS is supposed to be sportier and more performance oriented but then again I have never understood why often many v6 Toyota sedans have more hp then v6 Lexus sedans.

The reviewers also seemed to think 8 speeds was kind of overkill and unnecessary in the GS and it may have achieved better acceleration numbers with a 6 speed auto.


I too wonder why lexus did not boost power on the GS460. Many speculated that Lexus did not want the GS460 to take away the LS460's sales. I think that's ridiculous to say. A little history of the GS vs LS:

98-00 GS400: 300hp/310ftlbs
98-00 LS400: 290hp/290ftlbs

01-05 GS430: 300hp/325ftlbs
01-05 LS430: 290hp/320ftlbs

Yet the LS manages to outsell the GS. I dobt buy that arugment that Lexus did not want the GS460 to take away the LS460's sale.

And I do think 8spd is overkill. Yes you're in the optimal powerband more often, but you also have more shifts to go through and that adds up time unless it shifts as quick as the IS-F.

GSteg
05-20-08, 02:25 PM
It seems we figured out that the dual intakes on the LS 460 are simply to big to fit in the GS 460. The GS 460 has a single intake similar to the 430. This really hurt power.



Would that really cause a drop of 38hp/28ftlbs? I'm sure Lexus could have squeeze that much out by revising the intake.

rominl
05-20-08, 02:29 PM
It seems we figured out that the dual intakes on the LS 460 are simply to big to fit in the GS 460. The GS 460 has a single intake similar to the 430. This really hurt power.

The 8 speed seems to be hunting for gears, which is not a problem I've read in the LS. I wish the IS-F tranny changes made it to the GS. Also I totally agreee "WHERE ARE THE PADDLE SHIFTERS"?????

While a very good car, Lexus did not hit a home run with the 3GS. I am only hope and assume they are well aware of this and the 4GS will really take things up.

It does seem the GS 350 GS 450h and GS 460's performance are way to similar. The GS 460 gaining over 200lbs didn't help.
i have been wondering too, i doubt just the intake design accounts for that 40hp loss? that's a lot of power. no matter what imho there is no excuse for the sub-par performance of the gs460. like paul said, it doesn't really offer much above the gs350 and gs450h

i doubt the paddle shifters are going to make their ways to the gs too, unless it's the gs-f. it's lexus (that's a problem). i haven't driven the gs460, but i didn't have much issues on the ls460 8 speed though. in fact the gear selection was always very good imho, far better than my gs400 and sc430

rominl
05-20-08, 02:32 PM
I too wonder why lexus did not boost power on the GS460. Many speculated that Lexus did not want the GS460 to take away the LS460's sales. I think that's ridiculous to say. A little history of the GS vs LS:

98-00 GS400: 300hp/310ftlbs
98-00 LS400: 290hp/290ftlbs

01-05 GS430: 300hp/325ftlbs
01-05 LS430: 290hp/320ftlbs

Yet the LS manages to outsell the GS. I dobt buy that arugment that Lexus did not want the GS460 to take away the LS460's sale.

And I do think 8spd is overkill. Yes you're in the optimal powerband more often, but you also have more shifts to go through and that adds up time unless it shifts as quick as the IS-F.
i don't buy the LS sales argument neither. the two cars are in different leagues. what they offer in the ls460, you can't come close in the gs460 at all. people looking for stuff on the ls460, they won't really look at the gs460 even if it has the same power

carguy101
05-20-08, 03:06 PM
Toyota should stop f'in around and just put the 5.0 in the GS and the LS.

GS500 .... LS500


For one thing, those names simply sound much better and just roll off the tongue. :)

Faraaz23
05-20-08, 04:23 PM
Keep in mind Lexus had slotted the GS450h ABOVE the GS430 when it came out. Even though they've made the engine larger in the V8-powerd GS, my thoughts are that the GS450h needed to remain the top end GS. I That may be part of the reason for the hp we are seeing with the 460. Lexus wants to be unique in the fact that its hybrids are the fastest models of the LS and GS line-up.

Mike, funny you brought the APSSS up. For some reason, even when the GS450h came out, many of the cars they sent out to the press did NOT have this option equipped. I always thought that was a stupid move since they were advertising so heavily on the vehicle being sport-oriented. I'm glad the GS460 was equipped with this. At that IS-F event in Florida, I got to drive both a GS450h with APSSS, and a GS460 which was not equipped with that option. The difference in handling was noticeable with the very first turn. The advantage of it is it gets rid of a good deal of the Towncar body roll without causing the harsher ride that you often get with aftermarket suspension set-ups.

Faraaz23
05-20-08, 04:25 PM
Toyota should stop f'in around and just put the 5.0 in the GS and the LS.

GS500 .... LS500


For one thing, those names simply sound much better and just roll off the tongue. :)

You never know. Perhaps when it comes time to do a mid-cycle refresh for the LS460, they will drop in the 5.0. Since the GS just got the upgrade, we likely won't see a larger engine in that until the 4GS.

TwiBlueG35
05-20-08, 05:16 PM
My own ranking would be:

1st place: BMW 550i
2nd place: Jaguar XF 4.2SC
3rd place: Lexus GS460
4th place: Mercedes-Benz E550

Diemellz
05-21-08, 12:25 PM
i don't buy the LS sales argument neither. the two cars are in different leagues. what they offer in the ls460, you can't come close in the gs460 at all. people looking for stuff on the ls460, they won't really look at the gs460 even if it has the same power

i agree, i feel like smacking all those fools @ lexus. thats strike 2 for launching another joke car, also @ faraaz23 hit it on the money, the hybrid should of been the top model, SMFH @ Lexus gets own again