So I was reading I think GTPorsche this week and there is a one on one article with Walter. For those that don't know he is Porsche's top test driver and this guy has a resume 3 weeks long.

He was asked about Ring times and it seemed basically he just drove the GT2 around at the 7:32 and next thing you know, its a big deal. He stated they don't chase Ring times, Porsche just makes the car better and the Ring times drop.

He said too many car makers are chasing Ring times and the cars really are not for the road at all.

I expressed this same sentiment a couple years ago as it seems the internet has just gotten hung up on the fastest Ring times.

What are your thoughts on it?

He said too many car makers are chasing Ring times and the cars really are not for the road at all.


What are your thoughts on it?

I fully agree. I could care less about track or 0-60/quarter-mile times. They have little or no correlation to most daily driving.

When I do a review, I push the car moderately hard to get a good idea of what the drivetrain, brakes, and steering/suspension are capable of, but I rarely go to the limit. That's the way most of us drive, and what we buy our cars for.

I fully agree. I could care less about track or 0-60/quarter-mile times.

x2..............

Anyone who has ever driven the Ring, and I have, know that it is an awful place to develop a street car. I have made that comment here as well over the years and I think the people who disagree are generally the ones who haven't a clue 1) what the Ring actually is 2) haven't a clue as to what goes into development of a race car and 3) haven't a clue as to what goes into development of a road car. The suspension that works on a race car is an awful thing to live with on the street if you are dumb enough to try it.

Oh and anyone who doesn't know who Walter Rohrl is doesn't know much about Porsche's (and Audis for that matter). I don't fancy myself anywhere in his league, he's forgotten more about cars than I will ever know. I truly don't know where this mindless fascination with lap times at the Ring came and it might be simplistic to blame it for modern cars but I actually think the biggest failure is BMW. They used to have an absolutely sublime balance of handling and ride and they too have gotten too concerned with the handling side IMO. Oh well, if the point was to post a quote from someone who should be listened to, you succeeded.

Anyone who has ever driven the Ring, and I have, know that it is an awful place to develop a street car. I have made that comment here as well over the years and I think the people who disagree are generally the ones who haven't a clue 1) what the Ring actually is 2) haven't a clue as to what goes into development of a race car and 3) haven't a clue as to what goes into development of a road car. The suspension that works on a race car is an awful thing to live with on the street if you are dumb enough to try it.

Oh and anyone who doesn't know who Walter Rohrl is doesn't know much about Porsche's (and Audis for that matter). I don't fancy myself anywhere in his league, he's forgotten more about cars than I will ever know. I truly don't know where this mindless fascination with lap times at the Ring came and it might be simplistic to blame it for modern cars but I actually think the biggest failure is BMW. They used to have an absolutely sublime balance of handling and ride and they too have gotten too concerned with the handling side IMO. Oh well, if the point was to post a quote from someone who should be listened to, you succeeded.

Great post, can u elaborate on any knowledge of driving the Ring please?

For those that want to read more about Walter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_R%C3%B6hrl

I agree, but the thing is, its the currency and fuel that we use in our debates and discussion on cars.

We often spit out HP figures, 1/4 mile times and 0-60 times to praise or bash cars we never even drove ourselves.

Even though it might not be accurate, its a common measuring stick we can somewhat relate to.

for a purpose built car like a Porsche, sure, I think i bet it's an awesome proving ground. But for a normal car...sure it's great to have the performance but rather have useful torque at lower rpms and whatnot.

Yea, HP is starting to hit a wall so the current fad is ring times. I still think there is use for race tracks (doesn't have to be the Ring) in development of cars very likely to be tracked by owners e.g. P-cars, F-cars, M3, Miata, etc.

I'm half-wondering if Cadillac was intentionally aiming to have the new CTS-V run the ring under 8:00 to give it "euro" credibility. GM has pretty massive test grounds in the US as it is.

Yea, HP is starting to hit a wall so the current fad is ring times. I still think there is use for race tracks (doesn't have to be the Ring) in development of cars very likely to be tracked by owners e.g. P-cars, F-cars, M3, Miata, etc.

I'm half-wondering if Cadillac was intentionally aiming to have the new CTS-V run the ring under 8:00 to give it "euro" credibility. GM has pretty massive test grounds in the US as it is.

yeah, nothings cool unless you mention the ring

It's ok to chase the ring, but many are doing it the wrong way. They are making cars that are heavy pigs, and that includes the new Caddy, the M5, and hell, even the GTR, and giving them obscene amounts of horse power to make up for the weight, and suspension/tire combination that will self destruct over the first encounter with a pothole. And then to make it worse, when they bring these cars to consumers, they load them with all kinds of traction controls, stability systems, electronic power steering, electronic throttle and brake, which basically render whatever the handling prowess useless. Not to mention that many of todays "sport sedans" are not even available with a manual transmission.

Right now I cant afford a sports car, but if I could, it would be something along the lines of S2000/Elise. Both are agile, light sports car that can put cars with twice the horse power to shame. Of course, a car like that would be hard to live with for daily driving, but thats what I have two luxury sedans for. But when your luxury sedan becomes difficult to live with for daily driving, then theres something wrong. And this is exactly what happens nowadays.

Great post, can u elaborate on any knowledge of driving the Ring please?

For those that want to read more about Walter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_R%C3%B6hrl

In the very early 70s, the race team I was working for was looking at doing some european races and we tested both closed and open wheel cars there and some other tracks. Of course, if you are there, you can't help but drive it with anything that moves, including rental cars. I spent more time there in the 70s and 80s first in the military and then for business and kept going back to fool around. I haven't kept up but I am pretty sure that my experience in racing cars was on what was the old circuit and after losing F1 it has gone through some changes. You can do a lot of testing on one lap of the old circuit, sometimes that was good and sometimes it was bad. But I doubt the pavement has changed much.

The German approach to road surfaces, certainly then and I don't think they have changed that much, is considerably different than the US. If there is a pot hole in Germany, you can expect a trailer and about five guys to be there for a week fixing it. In the US, after a couple of hundred people ruin their suspensions, a guy goes out with a shovel full of asphalt spackle, throws it in, and lets the traffic tamp it down. Compared to roads here, the Ring is billiard table smooth. And that is the biggest part of my complaint. There are things you can do with ride height, compliance, and suspension travel on smooth surfaces that are of no use at all on the average real world road here in the US and many parts of the world.

I have a feeling that run flats are hardly noticeable on the Ring where here they are just one more bit of ride harshness to deal with. The latest generations of run flats, while better, are still noticeable to me and I really don't want them on my car. BMW still sets the standard for me for balance between ride and handling but having said that, they have definitely gotten more harsh in the 90s and 00s. Of course, pavement also has a significant on all the components of NVH with noise being another key. I don't know what granite corn flake ridden goo they use to surface roads around here in NoCal but some of it makes tires howl like a washing machine full of alley cats.

Someone else to add to the list would be Hans Stuck. AWD is not very familiar to most race car drivers. After the first turbine ran at Indy it was obvious that the turbine had a very usable power to weight ratio if you could keep it in its operating bandbut it was also AWD. AWD is only an advantage in putting power down, and that it did coming out of corners like you wouldn't believe. When Hans ran those Audis for a while he very, very quickly got comfortable with being able to wring every bit of advantage there was in accelerating from the AWD system. He's also not too shabby in Porsches either. Another legend IMO.

From what I've heard and read, the GTR is pretty "comfortable" on the road. so I would change the title from "The Ring is ruining cars" to "The GTR is ruining Porsche". ;)

I think it's a good measure of overall performance.... acceleration, handling, etc... but of course if a manufacturer gets too hung up on it then it's going to produce a car that's not livable day to day. I'm not sure manufacturers are THAT stupid though... while much of the internet may be hung up on those times do you really think they're letting those times get in the way of the fact that the other 99% of the world doesn't know or care about those times?

Dollars talk and having a great time but poor on road ride just doesn't work for most cars. Performance cars, yeah... but not every day cars.

I fully agree. I could care less about track or 0-60/quarter-mile times.

x2..............

Roughly how much less could you guys care?:D

The suspension that works on a race car is an awful thing to live with on the street if you are dumb enough to try it.


This point really rings loud...
From what I've heard and read, the GTR is pretty "comfortable" on the road. so I would change the title from "The Ring is ruining cars" to "The GTR is ruining Porsche". ;)
I drove the GTR here and said it from the beginning that the suspension was hard and it felt like the car would be a rattle box in no time flat. (Remember the roads over here are not like in the US)

I know I am going to get the " GTR hater " label again from all those obsessed one thing performace ,or should I say obsessed with the GTR. Like I have said all alone there is more to a car than what numbers it can put down.

for a purpose built car like a Porsche, sure, I think i bet it's an awesome proving ground. But for a normal car...sure it's great to have the performance but rather have useful torque at lower rpms and whatnot.

the thing is porsche prides itself on being an exotic car that u can drive daily

the thing is, is GT-R more comfortable than a 911 turbo?

This point really rings loud...

I drove the GTR here and said it from the beginning that the suspension was hard and it felt like the car would be a rattle box in no time flat. (Remember the roads over here are not like in the US)

I know I am going to get the " GTR hater " label again from all those obsessed one thing performace ,or should I say obsessed with the GTR. Like I have said all alone there is more to a car than what numbers it can put down.

You sure don't have to get that label for just picking on the GTR. At least the GTR advertises what it is going to be like before you ever touch the car. But a lot of the sporting sedans are supposed to still be livable and they flat aren't in the real world. My 2GS430 came with a suspension that I consider an abomination that was really unsafe. I got it handle where I thought it should with some bars and shocks but almost anything I did to improve handling really degraded the ride. BMW used to be magical in their ability to combine ride and handling but whether it is the Ring or not, they have gotten progressively more harsh.

Walter Rohrl would be one of the first to tell you that a cars suspension is of no use whatsoever if the tires are not in contact with the road. A stiff suspension is far too easily upset by the road surfaces we have to contend with in the real world. But then you get Larry, Moe, and Curly on Top Gear doing their supposed testing on a runway and make all sorts of wonderful proclamations about the handling, almost always coupled with their desire to impress the bejeezus out of you by demonstrating their ability to turn tires into smoke. Burn up your tires on the beginning of a lap on the old Nurburgring and you had a long time to think about how stupid you are. Been there, done that.

It's a better benchmark than 0-60 or quarter mile times. :thumbup:

BMW used to be magical in their ability to combine ride and handling but whether it is the Ring or not, they have gotten progressively more harsh.

Walter Rohrl would be one of the first to tell you that a cars suspension is of no use whatsoever if the tires are not in contact with the road. A stiff suspension is far too easily upset by the road surfaces we have to contend with in the real world. But then you get Larry, Moe, and Curly on Top Gear doing their supposed testing on a runway and make all sorts of wonderful proclamations about the handling, almost always coupled with their desire to impress the bejeezus out of you by demonstrating their ability to turn tires into smoke. Burn up your tires on the beginning of a lap on the old Nurburgring and you had a long time to think about how stupid you are. Been there, done that.

Some good points, RON. That is one of the reasons why European-spec cars often get harsher suspensions and tires than their American-market brothers. Engineers know that roads in America are, in general, rougher, more deteriorated, and more pothole-strewn than in Europe, particularly in the cities of the Northeast and the Snow-Belt regions.

BMW is STILL, though, at least in my book, the world's best automaker for steering feel and chassis engineering, though I thought the Mercedes E63 AMG I reviewed was close. As you note, BMW can combine ride, steering, and handling like no other. Yes, some of their vehicles, like the X3 and M3, have fairly stiff rides, but their handling level MORE than compensates for the stiffness. If you have ever driven a Mitsubishi Evo, for instance (I have), sure, it handles great, but an Evo suspension is SO stiff and noisy over bumps it will make even an M3 feel like a Town Car in comparison. Same with the new Lexus IS-F....good handling, but an excessively stiff ride as the trade-off. BMW, through superb chassis design, manages to avoid much of the traditional ride/handling trade-offs.

"the entire life of a vehicle can be simulated by just a few weeks on the ring"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTBDnvTQH6U

Engineers know that roads in America are, in general, rougher, more deteriorated, and more pothole-strewn than in Europe, particularly in the cities of the Northeast and the Snow-Belt regions.


You think America is bad, you should see some of the goat paths here, only the toll ways are a little bit decent.

You sure don't have to get that label for just picking on the GTR. At least the GTR advertises what it is going to be like before you ever touch the car.

Very true, and I will emphasise that I don't know how they are marketing over there. But I found that their only selling point is how fast it goes, which is fine if that is all you are looking for, but as the OP said a lot of cars are suffering due this competion just so they can say "we have the best figures for this class", incedently which was driven by a pro that handles a car like it was a part of his body.

the thing is, is GT-R more comfortable than a 911 turbo?

The GTR is more comfortable than 911 turbo at least 996tt... I use to commute LA -OC couple times a week in a 996tt and they are not very comfortable for long distance/traffic...

I disagree completely. If the car performs well on a track or on the ring in this case it should perform well on the street. If the car has a working AC, sound dampening so the noise doesn't kill you, passes modern day emissions, has a radio and navigation, it is more than a street car too me.