Maybe this is a re-run and has been talked about on here a zillion times already, but I just caught SpeedChannel's show about the IS-F including an interview with the Lexus IS-F lead engineer and test drive, IN JAPAN - very interesting and I thought it was great hearing him explain the design choices.

One thing I found interesting is that he said when in 'M' mode, the torque converter is turned OFF!

Great stuff. :thumbup:

THanks bit!!!

One thing I found interesting is that he said when in 'M' mode, the torque converter is turned OFF!

Great stuff. :thumbup:

Been said many times in the IS-F forum, yet critics still continue to bash the 8 speed auto, even though it performs like a real manual in 'M' mode (but faster).

I was up late the other day flipping channels and caught that also. Very cool to see those guys pushing the cars around the track. These guys were like less than 12" apart side to side around the turns!

Been said many times in the IS-F forum, yet critics still continue to bash the 8 speed auto, even though it performs like a real manual in 'M' mode (but faster).

Depends on what you mean by the term "bash". I've driven and reviewed the IS-F myself, though not under track conditions, and have mixed feelings about the transmission myself. It does, as you indicate, have a crispness in sport-shifting, but I fail to see how 8 speeds, like in the LS460, are not simple overkill. And all that shifting up and down though all those gears could place more wear on the transmission itself and affect its service life.

What do you mean the torque converter is "turned off"? In conventional transmission design you can't just turn it off - it's a very integrated piece in the entire power transfer process. You can LOCK it... which is all well and good... my 335i leaves the TC locked in sport mode effectively the entire time except possibly initial acceleration in first gear. It does have a manual like feel to it for an automatic, but it is still far from as crisp or direct as a manual or even a DSG transmission, and of course still has the power loss, weight, and reliability characteristics of an automatic as well.

With all that said I don't blame Lexus for using an auto - it was a fine choice. But it is not anything close to a manual regardless of the TC staying locked.

Everyone keeps either raving about or bashing the 8 speed (I personally think its annoying), but everyone overlooking the real gem that Lexus has created that apparently gets no attention from the press or the enthusiasts. I'm talking about the CVT transmission that is found in GS450h and LS600h. In the past CVT transmissions were critisized for not being able to handle a lot of power, well Lexus changed that - its CVT in the LS600 handles over 400hp and insane torque from electric motors. There's just simply no reason for manuals or traditional auto transmissions anymore... the CVT is much much better.

What do you mean the torque converter is "turned off"? In conventional transmission design you can't just turn it off - it's a very integrated piece in the entire power transfer process. You can LOCK it... which is all well and good... my 335i leaves the TC locked in sport mode effectively the entire time except possibly initial acceleration in first gear. It does have a manual like feel to it for an automatic, but it is still far from as crisp or direct as a manual or even a DSG transmission, and of course still has the power loss, weight, and reliability characteristics of an automatic as well.

With all that said I don't blame Lexus for using an auto - it was a fine choice. But it is not anything close to a manual regardless of the TC staying locked.

Have you driven the IS-F yet?

Threxx, maybe locked is what the IS-F lead engineer meant or it was lost in translation (he doesn't speak English). :p

And a light high performance TC (like the Precision Industries one I had on my GS, vs. the heavy clunker from Lexus) made it feel anything but slow. :D But yes, the electronics as well as the mechanism still dictates the overall feel.

And I've said it before but I wouldn't want a manual on a car as powerful as the IS-F - too jerky unless you slip the clutch a lot.

The IS-F tranny is a marvel. Its not just the LS 600h tranny inside. It has substantial additions.

I mean for goodness sakes, BMW only offered SMG in the M5 until recently, all AMG cars are autos and I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone can be faster in a manual IS-F than an Auto one (if they made one).

Hell I doubt the avg person would be faster in the IS-F with all trac control off compared to the VDIM setting.

Does anyone know the last year F1 uses manuals? I believe it was 1992.

The IS-F tranny is a marvel. Its not just the LS 600h tranny inside. It has substantial additions.

I mean for goodness sakes, BMW only offered SMG in the M5 until recently, all AMG cars are autos and I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone can be faster in a manual IS-F than an Auto one (if they made one).

Hell I doubt the avg person would be faster in the IS-F with all trac control off compared to the VDIM setting.

Does anyone know the last year F1 uses manuals? I believe it was 1992.

sometimes driving is NOT about speed though
its about the enjoyment of knowing your car and using every bit of it
and with a manual, you can get a bit more enjoyment out of it by having a more complete experience

and F1 still uses manuals
just automated manuals but technically it still counts as manual

Don't F1's use DCT's?

Does anyone know the last year F1 uses manuals? I believe it was 1992.

That's because, in an F1 car, if it is not upshifted shifted or downshifted properly, the rear tires can break loose and throw the car into a spin, overpowering even ESC systems where they are allowed.

That's because, in an F1 car, if it is not upshifted shifted or downshifted properly, the rear tires can break loose and throw the car into a spin, overpowering even ESC systems where they are allowed.
It's also because those transmissions are faster, more efficient, and just better than stick shifts in every way. The manual transmission's last stand is that it is "more fun" to some car enthusiasts. There is very, very little advantage with a stick over any of the other transmission options from an engineering, performance, or practicality standpoint anymore.

Yeah in M mode, the IS-F is a whole different vehicle. In D mode, it's just another silky smooth Lexus.

and F1 still uses manuals
just automated manuals but technically it still counts as manual

From the context of your stated "experience" standpoint, the F1 transmission is no more a manual than the IS-F's.

Don't F1's use DCT's?

F1 cars use sequential trannys. Dual clutches are not allowed, and CVTs were banned because of *gasp* how damn good they were for the job.

sometimes driving is NOT about speed though
its about the enjoyment of knowing your car and using every bit of it
and with a manual, you can get a bit more enjoyment out of it by having a more complete experience

and F1 still uses manuals
just automated manuals but technically it still counts as manual

Yes, but the IS-F is not a weekend roadster/weekend toy/backroad carver/elise, and IMHO that is really the only place a stick shift really still belongs.

From the context of your stated "experience" standpoint, the F1 transmission is no more a manual than the IS-F's.


Exactly.........

It's never a regular Lexus

The ride is more precise

I believe the LS600 has a planetary, the LS460 is the other 8 speed
But this is seriously nuts

Does anyone know where I can host some HD videos?

ok i guess it all depends on how people want the IS-F to fit into their lifestyle
a weekend racer or a daily fun car




Does anyone know where I can host some HD videos?

http://www.vimeo.com/

From the context of your stated "experience" standpoint, the F1 transmission is no more a manual than the IS-F's.


One has a torque converter and one doesn't. One is an automatic transmission by definition and one is a manual transmission. It is really apples to oranges. Just because they both shift gears via a paddle shifter doesn't make the F1 tranny an automatic. Automatic transmissions are actually banned in F1. A sequential manual gearbox is far from an automatic transmission. it still uses a clutch, although the clutch action is automated instead of foot power.

Lots of transmissions lock the torque converter. My old Acura Legend did that as well as most modern automatics today. If anyone can shed some light on how exactly the IS-F takes the torque converter out of operation in M mode and turns it into a manual I'm all ears. I really just don't comprehend what "Turn Off" the torque converter means.


PS. I think automatics are the way of the future. My first choice would be a duel clutch DSG tranny, then an automatic tranny like in the IS-F, then a real manual for pure performance. That would be my daily driver or even my drag strip race car choice. For pure weekend fun though I'd still stick to a conventional manual just for the pure pleasure of manipulation the clutch, doing heel/toe shifts, manually rev matching and such. There can be a lot of joy in that for a lot of people.

It is really apples to oranges.

Again, from his stated context of driving experience, the F1 transmission is no more a manual than the IS-F's. There is no "apples and oranges"; he made no attempt to differentiate in other aspects, so certainly neither did I in responding.

Lots of transmissions lock the torque converter. My old Acura Legend did that as well as most modern automatics today. If anyone can shed some light on how exactly the IS-F takes the torque converter out of operation in M mode and turns it into a manual I'm all ears. I really just don't comprehend what "Turn Off" the torque converter means.

I had an issue with the way Lexus worded this originally as well. After owning it for while here's the lowdown.

They lock the TC in M mode at all RPMS in gears other than first. Other transmissions will lock the TC above a certain RPM threshold. In those cars when you lift off the gas at speed the TC unlocks and you get a smooth decel. With the IS-F you feel the engine braking immediately, just as if you were in gear with a manual. It is a very different experience than a normal locking automatic.

HTH

I had an issue with the way Lexus worded this originally as well. After owning it for while here's the lowdown.

They lock the TC in M mode at all RPMS in gears other than first. Other transmissions will lock the TC above a certain RPM threshold. In those cars when you lift off the gas at speed the TC unlocks and you get a smooth decel. With the IS-F you feel the engine braking immediately, just as if you were in gear with a manual. It is a very different experience than a normal locking automatic.

HTH

That is exactly what my 335i does by default and in sport mode it even locks it up in first. I can come to almost a complete stop when coasting up to a red light just by letting off the gas.

typical hype though. people here only took notice once lexus did it...then it was suddenly magical and amazing and we even get lexus themselves spreading misinformation acting like early lockup of the tc is a special feature that makes their automatic just as good as something like a dsg...
not that I have driven the is f but I have driven my 335i plenty as well as a dsg audi tt and there is just no comparison. the dsg is just awesome and as close to a manual as any auto shifting trans I have ever driven by a long shot.

Did you drive it in M and Sport mode?

I've noticed a lot of reviews don't even mention that the M mode + Sport mode totally change the car

not that I have driven the is f but I have driven my 335i plenty as well as a dsg audi tt and there is just no comparison. the dsg is just awesome and as close to a manual as any auto shifting trans I have ever driven by a long shot.
Seems like if you haven't driven it it's a bit hard to compare. I agree the DSG is very different but once you drive the IS-F in M mode with sport enabled you (just like all the major car magazines) will be impressed by this "automatic" transmission.
That is exactly what my 335i does by default and in sport mode it even locks it up in first. I can come to almost a complete stop when coasting up to a red light just by letting off the gas.

I agree it is part hype here it's all about orders of magnitude. When the announcement was made I had the same reaction you did. I've seen lots of transmissions lockup and even more lockup earlier and earlier. Honestly I've not driven an automatic that behaves like this one. Hype, sure. Some substance too? I think so.

Go take one for a drive!:thumbup:

Seems like if you haven't driven it it's a bit hard to compare. I agree the DSG is very different but once you drive the IS-F in M mode with sport enabled you (just like all the major car magazines) will be impressed by this "automatic" transmission.

I agree it is part hype here it's all about orders of magnitude. When the announcement was made I had the same reaction you did. I've seen lots of transmissions lockup and even more lockup earlier and earlier. Honestly I've not driven an automatic that behaves like this one. Hype, sure. Some substance too? I think so.

Go take one for a drive!:thumbup:

I think it is safe to agree that the IS-F has one of the best automatic trannies in the market today along with the BMW 335i. These types of transmissions will be the wave of the future. I guess CVTs willalso become a lot more popular, but I'm not sold on them just yet as I actually like a little jerkiness in my tranny. I'm old school still. I like to feel the gears shifting and hear the engine roaring, and the exhausts rumbling:D

Anyway, the more automatics like this and more DSG trannies that come into market the better for all of us.

OK, enough debate, did anyone else actually see the TV show? :p

Well I watched it the first time around (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:s01GlyV6fFsJ:www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D346598%26page%3D2+site:cluble xus.com+is-f+test+drive+speed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us) and my TiVo recorded the rerun you are talking about and since I'm still a sucker for it I watched parts of it again.

It was as boring the second time around as it was the first. You can click the link to see the initial feedback but compared to the M3 and VW GTI reviews done just prior the IS-F review was pretty lame. The interview with the designer was definitely the highlight and it was too short. The racing with Scott and Tommy was tamer than other episodes. The "chase" was... umm... 30 sec skip, 30 sec skip, 30 sec skip, etc... Tommy didn't seem to "into" the IS-F either.

I'd love to see a more detailed interview, technology overview and timed laps done.

BTW: Don't know what happened to that thread. I remember posting in it and couldn't find it to save my life with CL search. Thank the oracle (aka google) for preserving my sanity.

Seems like if you haven't driven it it's a bit hard to compare. I agree the DSG is very different but once you drive the IS-F in M mode with sport enabled you (just like all the major car magazines) will be impressed by this "automatic" transmission.

+1

The IS-F is difffffferent completely!!! in manual mode

I promise I'll get some WOT runs in in all the modes soon, my camera battery is charging and the second battery is somewhere in FedEx hands

I think it was said in an earlier post but this is the Lexus explanation. What isn't mentioned here is that the transmission shifts in .10 seconds. I don't think anyone is going to shift the traditional manual that fast.

"Traditional automatics have used the lockup clutch to make them more efficient by creating a direct power path between the engine and transmission. This is normally done in the upper gears and in low load operations to preserve smoothness while gaining fuel economy.

The IS F turns this idea on its head by employing lockup in all gears except first when in manual mode. This eliminates any power loss from torque converter from 2nd through 8th gear while preserving desirable torque multiplication in first gear for stunning launch acceleration. The result is a direct feel unlike any other automatic, and right now response to the throttle."

The Lexus hype didn't really come from Lexus. There have been numerous comments made in regards to this transmission in many different tests. If the 335i operates exactly the same way it just hasn't been pointed out that the shifting is as impressive as what has been experienced in the ISF. I am not knocking the 335i, so don't read into it that way. I'm just saying it apparently didn't stand out, like them mentioning the impressive pwr for example, in the 335i when tested by various mags and such.