Well in our weekly why Acura is laughable edition of the news, I just got my C&D and I was totally unaware a V-8 Kia SUV was being offered. Thats right, no V-8 in the MDX but rather, you can get one in a Kia. A Kia. A Kia.:eek2:

Thats right, first Hyundai and now KIA has a V-8 before Acura.

It seems to be a less powerful version of the Genesis. 337hp and 323lbs of torque.

I don't care what anyone says that is utterly pathetic on Acura's part and as far as I am concerned they are not far removed from Kia or Hyundai.

Yes, it has not been in the news much, but the new Borrego does in fact offer a V8, a detuned version of the Tau V8 used in the Genesis. For a somewhat large body-on-frame SUV, fuel economy figures for the V8 are surprisingly good. The Tau seems to be nice, efficient little V8. The real slap in the face to Honda would be if the Tau V8 earns a reputation for being fuel efficient, and/or very reliable.

On a related note, the Borrego V8 is also a slap-in-the-face to Mazda. The Borrego V8 gets about the same fuel economy as the CX-9, despite being a heavier vehicle offering more power. This just further highlights how poor the CX-9's fuel economy is. The MDX can also be thrown into this mix. The Borrego V8 actually gets better fuel economy than the MDX despite being heavier and more powerful. Really sad for both Mazda and Honda.

Kia sponsored the July 4th show here in Philly. Had a bunch of them running around that weekend. Very nice SUV's. :thumbup:

Well in our weekly why Acura is laughable edition of the news, I just got my C&D and I was totally unaware a V-8 Kia SUV was being offered. Thats right, no V-8 in the MDX but rather, you can get one in a Kia. A Kia. A Kia.:eek2:

Thats right, first Hyundai and now KIA has a V-8 before Acura.

It seems to be a less powerful version of the Genesis. 337hp and 323lbs of torque.

I don't care what anyone says that is utterly pathetic on Acura's part and as far as I am concerned they are not far removed from Kia or Hyundai.

They are the only japanese car maker that doesnt produce a V8. Thats why Im surpried that the new NSX will be a V10 possibly. They need to step it up.

Kia with a V8 is still a Kia. Regaurdless I couldnt drive a girlie vehicle even if it were a V12 supercar from KIA.

http://themotorreport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/2008_kia_borrego_themotorreport-3.jpg
Looks pretty good.


Thats why Im surpried that the new NSX will be a V10 possibly. They need to step it up.
They could put a V16 in that thing and it wouldn't solve any of the issues they are having with their cars. Acura needs to up their game beyond number of cylinders (although it is a pressing issue, america is not ready to accept turbo 6's in the place of V8's) they need to step it up interiorwise also. When Lexus came out they used BETTER materials then the competition was using, DIFFERENT from their parent company toyota, where as Acura shops at the Honda material store. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Acura was japanese for "Me Too."

http://themotorreport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/2008_kia_borrego_themotorreport-3.jpg
Looks pretty good.



They could put a V16 in that thing and it wouldn't solve any of the issues they are having with their cars. Acura needs to up their game beyond number of cylinders (although it is a pressing issue, america is not ready to accept turbo 6's in the place of V8's) they need to step it up interiorwise also. When Lexus came out they used BETTER materials then the competition was using, DIFFERENT from their parent company toyota, where as Acura shops at the Honda material store. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Acura was japanese for "Me Too."


I didnt even see that picture. That actually looks good.

On a related note, the Borrego V8 is also a slap-in-the-face to Mazda. The Borrego V8 gets about the same fuel economy as the CX-9, despite being a heavier vehicle offering more power. This just further highlights how poor the CX-9's fuel economy is.

While I have not (yet) driven a Borrego, I have reviewed all of the sister Hyundai SUV's, including the Veracruz it is based on....and the CX-9 Grand Touring model. The CX-9 may not match its fuel economy, but its chassis is more responsive than the Veracruz. Though the Tiburon is stiff, Hyundai/Kia vehicles, in general, are set up for comfort, not handling or steering response. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that...........I like a comfort-oriented vehicle myself. My point is that the CX-9 and Borrego were designed with two different driving styles in mind, though the CX-9's handling, while good for a largish SUV, can't compare with that of a Mazda sedan.

There is nothing wrong with this vehicle. I think it looks great. Korean cars are just as Asian as Japanese cars. Manufacturing, fit and Finish of todays Japanese and Korean cars are quite similar. Check them out for yourself beyond the keyboard.

While I have not (yet) driven a Borrego, I have reviewed all of the sister Hyundai SUV's, including the Veracruz it is based on....

The Borrego is not based on the Veracruz. The Veracruz is car based, this is truck based.

:agree:

Veracruz and Borrego are completely different chassis/platform/etc

Kia chose a great time to introduce a big Body on Frame V8 SUV...

I saw a few of these in Korea back in April, wasn't too impressed.

They are the only japanese car maker that doesnt produce a V8. Thats why Im surpried that the new NSX will be a V10 possibly. They need to step it up.

Subaru doesn't make a V8. In fact, they don't make V anything.

Subaru doesn't make a V8. In fact, they don't make V anything.

Does Mazda have a V8? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Does Mazda have a V8? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.
Mazda Navajo of the 90's based on the Ford Explorer:p

Mazda Navajo of the 90's based on the Ford Explorer:p


I don't think the Navajo was ever given the V8 option. It came in a 3 door model only.

Subaru doesn't make a V8. In fact, they don't make V anything.

Out of the major Japanese automakers, yes Honda is the only one who doesn't have a production V8. Both Nissan and Toyota have had production V8 engines for years. Subaru, Mazda, Suzuki and others are excluded because they are niche makers, not major automakers.

Out of the major Japanese automakers, yes Honda is the only one who doesn't have a production V8. Both Nissan and Toyota have had production V8 engines for years. Subaru, Mazda, Suzuki and others are excluded because they are niche makers, not major automakers.

Exactly. We have watched Kia/Hyundai enter America when Acura did. We now have some Kia/Hyundais with superios components than a current Acura in 20 years. Advance my ass.

Would you rather a V-6 with fuel economy of a V-8 with fake wood or a V-8 with fake wood? Give me the V-8.

For goodness sakes the Acura 3.5/3.7 is based on the LEGEND engine. Do you know how old that is? That is like Toyota trying to make the 2JZ better instead of just introducing its new award winning 3.5 V-6.

For goodness sakes the Acura 3.5/3.7 is based on the LEGEND engine. Do you know how old that is? That is like Toyota trying to make the 2JZ better instead of just introducing its new award winning 3.5 V-6.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Acura needs new engines and soon. I've already said I personally think the J series engine is nearing its end. That said, the 3.5/3.7 Acura engines used today are not based on the old Legend engine. Legend engine yes, if you consider the RL is still called the Legend elsewhere, but the old Legend engine was a C series C32A1 based on off the mid to late 80s C25. The C series engines ended production in 2005 with the NSX C32B. The current engines are based off the J series engines that came out in 1997 In the 3.0 CL. Still an old engine IMHO though.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Acura needs new engines and soon. I've already said I personally think the J series engine is nearing its end. That said, the 3.5/3.7 Acura engines used today are not based on the old Legend engine. Legend engine yes, if you consider the RL is still called the Legend elsewhere, but the old Legend engine was a C series C32A1 based on off the mid to late 80s C25. The C series engines ended production in 2005 with the NSX C32B. The current engines are based off the J series engines that came out in 1997 In the 3.0 CL. Still an old engine IMHO though.

Thanks Chris. I thought honestly the engine was based on the 3.2 in the LEgend GS and I know the 1st gen RL shared 40% of its parts with the old LEgend.

Exactly. We have watched Kia/Hyundai enter America when Acura did. We now have some Kia/Hyundais with superios components than a current Acura in 20 years. Advance my ass.

Would you rather a V-6 with fuel economy of a V-8 with fake wood or a V-8 with fake wood? Give me the V-8.

For goodness sakes the Acura 3.5/3.7 is based on the LEGEND engine. Do you know how old that is? That is like Toyota trying to make the 2JZ better instead of just introducing its new award winning 3.5 V-6.

Which Kia/Hyundais comes with superior components than a current Acura in 20 years? How is is superior ? By offering a V-8 ?

Which Kia/Hyundais comes with superior components than a current Acura in 20 years? How is is superior ? By offering a V-8 ?

A V8 that is just as, if not more fuel efficient than the best V6 Honda has to offer, while also being much more powerful.

The Borrego is not based on the Veracruz. The Veracruz is car based, this is truck based.

OK, maybe you got me on that one. Like I said, I haven't reviewed the Borrego, and don't know a great deal about it. It did appear, though, to be based on the Veracruz platform, but if not, I don't know why Hyundai and Kia would go to the expense of doing one on a truck ladder-frame and the other on a car-type unibody.

Aside from the RL, Acura doesn't make a car that would really belong with a V8 in it. The MDX is akin to the RX which doesn't have a V8.

In all reality with the way preference is moving back to smaller and more efficient engines, I wouldn't exactly be shocked if 5-6 years from now V8s were no longer used in cars that compete with the RL anyway. But combine the RL's already slow sales with the fact that V8s always sell a fraction of what V6s sell in that class... means Acura would lose money on that move.

to some people, the cylinder count is really important and it does not matter how crappy the car is. :egads:

to some people, the cylinder count is really important and it does not matter how crappy the car is. :egads:

Thing is Kia/Hyundai is not crappy anymore. What is CRAPPY is a Kia or Hyundai offering a V-8 in their sedan/SUV before a brand that is badged for luxury.

That is a TOTAL oxymoron and it just further cements my point (for years) that Acura is a JOKE.

TO think I wanted a Legend, CL, TL, Integra in the 1990s and to see them get PASSED by the Koreans. Utterly laughable.

to some people, the cylinder count is really important and it does not matter how crappy the car is. :egads:

While it may not matter to you or other people, you cannot refuse to ignore this aspect. The luxury market demands that you *at least* have V8 engines offered in some of your vehicles.

Thing is Kia/Hyundai is not crappy anymore. What is CRAPPY is a Kia or Hyundai offering a V-8 in their sedan/SUV before a brand that is badged for luxury.

That is a TOTAL oxymoron and it just further cements my point (for years) that Acura is a JOKE.

TO think I wanted a Legend, CL, TL, Integra in the 1990s and to see them get PASSED by the Koreans. Utterly laughable.

So if you were offer a free car from Acura and Kia, you would pick a Kia?

While it may not matter to you or other people, you cannot refuse to ignore this aspect. The luxury market demands that you *at least* have V8 engines offered in some of your vehicles.

Although I may agree with you about the Acura needing a V-8 but to compare Kia/Hyundias and Acura is just rediculus. People do not cross shop between these two brand.

Just by offer a V-8 does not make Kia/Hyundai brand more superior than Acura.

Although I may agree with you about the Acura needing a V-8 but to compare Kia/Hyundias and Acura is just rediculus. People do not cross shop between these two brand.

Just by offer a V-8 does not make Kia/Hyundai brand more superior than Acura.

You're missing the point. Nobody is saying that Kia/Hyundai are superior cars overall to Honda/Acura. The point is this is a slap in the face to Honda. This is embarassing and downright pitiful that Honda STILL does not have a production V8 in ANY vehicle.

You're right, the Borrego does not compete with Acura, but I guarantee you the Genesis with the same V8 engine definitely will compete with Acura. The Genesis has RWD and an available V8, two things that no Acura car has. Once again a slap in the face to Acura.

Before you say the Genesis is a Hyundai-branded car and that Acura is considered a luxury brand, Acura has a very low reputation and perception in North America. Acura is not considered a full luxury brand. Acura in North America is considered to be near-luxury. Infiniti right now has a better reputation and better perception than Acura in North America does. If the gen 3 TL was heavily cross-shopped with Honda's own Accord (admitted by Acura executives), then it's very likely the Genesis will be cross-shopped with the new 4G TL.

Although I may agree with you about the Acura needing a V-8 but to compare Kia/Hyundias and Acura is just rediculus. People do not cross shop between these two brand.

Just by offer a V-8 does not make Kia/Hyundai brand more superior than Acura.

Sorry people do cross shop them and at this point, Acura is not far removed from Kia or Hyundai. Hell the Genesis> the entire Acura lineup.

People can make all the excuses they want (b/c that is all it is) we have witnessed Kia and Hyundai offer some luxury BASICS Acura does not even offer.
V-8
oh a 6 speed Tranny. A Kia has a 6 speed auto, Acura does not.

Cute Nav systems and a nice stereo are not what a car is about, that should be additional attributes to a car, not the basis for selling them.

I do not see Kia/Hyundai have a a fighter against the MDX/TL/TSX. Beside the Genesis which looks good on paper but how will it fair against the RL and Lexus ES350. I do not think they are cross shop. Price different is just to much in that class.

Say what you may, but Acura does have a better brand image than both Kia/Hyundai. I just do not see people looking at Hyundai and say hmm maybe I should check out the Acura lineup. If they do shop for the Genesis then it's not only acura but these people will also look into Lexus.

Acura does have Super AWD that is not available in other brand. Better Nav system.

Here is an example of American luxury car powered by a V8.

2008 Town Cars are powered by a 4.6-liter V8 that produces a whopping 239 hp and 287 lb-ft of torque. Power is sent to the rear wheels via a four-speed automatic transmission. Expect a 0-60-mph time in the mid-8-second range for the Signature Limited and longer for the Signature L. Fuel economy estimates for 2008 are 15 mpg city and 22 mpg highway.

Hey, but it has a V8. :woot::woohoo:Anything with a V8 gotta be good. :egads:

Here is an example of American luxury car powered by a V8.

2008 Town Cars are powered by a 4.6-liter V8 that produces a whopping 239 hp and 287 lb-ft of torque. Power is sent to the rear wheels via a four-speed automatic transmission. Expect a 0-60-mph time in the mid-8-second range for the Signature Limited and longer for the Signature L. Fuel economy estimates for 2008 are 15 mpg city and 22 mpg highway.

Hey, but it has a V8. :woot::woohoo:Anything with a V8 gotta be good. :egads:

This is exactly the point I want to get across. Kia/Hyundais now offer a V-8 now they on par with Acura and people cross shop them.

Like I said I do not see people going to buy Hyundais/Kia will cross shop it against Acura lineup. It's like "hmm .. this accent is how much ? forget it I am going to Acura ":uh:

There are always exceptions to the rule, but hardly anyone cross-shops kia and Acura. The price bracket for both brands do not even overlap that much.

Yea I agree. The V8 doesn't mean it's automatically good. Here is the kicker, perhaps Honda/Acura's perception is to make cars that doesn't require extra cylinder(s) in the engine and yet the power is nearly as good and much more efficient in gas mileage and better handling performance(due to lighter weights).

I think that *might* be part of the reason why Honda wanted to stick with the I-4 and V6 and not the V8. I knew this a long time ago I just didn't mention to ya guys lolz...... Basically I support newr's claims.:thumbup:


.

Here is an example of American luxury car powered by a V8.

2008 Town Cars are powered by a 4.6-liter V8 that produces a whopping 239 hp and 287 lb-ft of torque. Power is sent to the rear wheels via a four-speed automatic transmission. Expect a 0-60-mph time in the mid-8-second range for the Signature Limited and longer for the Signature L. Fuel economy estimates for 2008 are 15 mpg city and 22 mpg highway.

Hey, but it has a V8. :woot::woohoo:Anything with a V8 gotta be good. :egads:Dog you are talking about a Ford. If i'm not mistaken Acura is the only Luxury brand that still using a 4 cylinders. Acura needs to at least bring a rear drive to the table.

There is nothing wrong with this vehicle. I think it looks great. Korean cars are just as Asian as Japanese cars. Manufacturing, fit and Finish of todays Japanese and Korean cars are quite similar. Check them out for yourself beyond the keyboard.

The Hyundai Accent is still cheap on the inside and outside IMO. I've sat in a Kia Optima and a Hyundai Elantra, they're right up there with Toyota and Honda.

I do not see Kia/Hyundai have a a fighter against the MDX/TL/TSX. Beside the Genesis which looks good on paper but how will it fair against the RL and Lexus ES350. I do not think they are cross shop. Price different is just to much in that class.

Say what you may, but Acura does have a better brand image than both Kia/Hyundai. I just do not see people looking at Hyundai and say hmm maybe I should check out the Acura lineup. If they do shop for the Genesis then it's not only acura but these people will also look into Lexus.

Acura does have Super AWD that is not available in other brand. Better Nav system.
Toyota/Denso's NAV system is worlds ahead of Honda's Alpine system, and while the Toyota system has the silly lockouts, it's a better system. Even GM uses Denso's system with GM-specific software on Escalades and Suburbans.

And SH-AWD is really just a tweaked version of VTM-4.

And it's funny when my neighbor's 07 Pilot VP 2WD with the J35Z1 i-VTEC/VCM V6 only gets 23mpg on the hwy during a long trip on the 5 while my 18 year old 1UZ-FE hits 25-26 on the highway.

Dog you are talking about a Ford. If i'm not mistaken Acura is the only Luxury brand that still using a 4 cylinders. Acura needs to at least bring a rear drive to the table.

What? a $50K Lincoln Town Car is not a luxury car? Didn't you read what I had just posted? And here you go counting # cylinders again... do you really want me to give you another similar example of a 4 vs 6?

FWD vs RWD is another topic and I am sure it has been discussed to death. Being RWD does not mean that it's automatically better than FWD just like 8 cyl is not necessary better than 6.

Toyota/Denso's NAV system is worlds ahead of Honda's Alpine system, and while the Toyota system has the silly lockouts, it's a better system. Even GM uses Denso's system with GM-specific software on Escalades and Suburbans.

And SH-AWD is really just a tweaked version of VTM-4.

And it's funny when my neighbor's 07 Pilot VP 2WD with the J35Z1 i-VTEC/VCM V6 only gets 23mpg on the hwy during a long trip on the 5 while my 18 year old 1UZ-FE hits 25-26 on the highway.

I was comparing it to the Hyundai NAV. Also it just me or something but I do not see much of a different between the lexus/toyota nav and acura/honda nav. Both are good and very easy to use. It's comparable to me on both so what make it world head of each other, just curious ?

On the gas mileage? They have same weight? class like a fullsize vs midsize maybe ?

The graphic on toyota/lexus navi is better than honda/acura though but other than that everything else seems the same.

Here is an example of American luxury car powered by a V8.

2008 Town Cars are powered by a 4.6-liter V8 that produces a whopping 239 hp and 287 lb-ft of torque. Power is sent to the rear wheels via a four-speed automatic transmission. Expect a 0-60-mph time in the mid-8-second range for the Signature Limited and longer for the Signature L. Fuel economy estimates for 2008 are 15 mpg city and 22 mpg highway.

Hey, but it has a V8. :woot::woohoo:Anything with a V8 gotta be good. :egads:

I am a little shocked you posted this. Since you want to pick the V-8 with the lowest output (instead of a Caddy V-8, or Chrysler V-8 let alone SRT8 or V-series) lets go to school.

1. That lowly V-8 has MORE TORQUE than any Acura. So Town Car>Acura
2. More cylinders=smoother engine. Smoother engine=luxury.Thus why V-8s, V-10s, V-12s up to the W-16 quad turbo is offered. Your wonderful I-4 (I mean that the S2000 is a legend) with 240hp will be buzzy and you will need to shift the snot outta it to move it out its own way compared to a 239hp V-8 Town Car).
3. That fuel economy is on par with the 3.7 V-6 from Acura.;)

There is NO DEFENSE to a brand that does not offer a V-8 when now Kia and Hyundai does. :sad:
Acura is supposed to be a luxury brand and now has been passed by Korean brands in regards to offering a V-8 engine. That is utterly pathetic.

I mean, they still don't offer one? Offer?

Being RWD does not mean that it's automatically better than FWD just like 8 cyl is not necessary better than 6.

Amen brother.

Amen brother.

newr forgot to compare the actual engines here, the V-8 in the Borrego vs the V-6 in the MDX.

Give me the V-8 in a big heavy truck thank you.

While the I-4 in the TSX makes nearly the same hp as the IS 250, the IS 250 will be the smoother, quieter drive in traffic as it has 2 extra cylinders to help.

That is just simple engineering.

While the I-4 in the TSX makes nearly the same hp as the IS 250, the IS 250 will be the smoother, quieter drive in traffic as it has 2 extra cylinders to help.

That is just simple engineering.

Well I think you can agree with me in that it depends on the vehicle as well. My 4 banger is smoother than my dad's 330, but thats because you can't shift his car without jerking around. So not an engine char., but a char. of the car. Although, I guess the real winner is no cylinders. RX400h in traffic. Smooth as butter. :D

I don't know. Just by offering a V-8 does not meant it have surpass Acura. Kia/Hyundais are to compete with Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Nissan etc. not with Acura. I do not see that by offering a V-8 people will flock to them and ignore Honda.

But also with today's gas price, do we need a v-8 ?

I don't know. Just by offering a V-8 does not meant it have surpass Acura. Kia/Hyundais are to compete with Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Nissan etc. not with Acura. I do not see that by offering a V-8 people will flock to them and ignore Honda.

But also with today's gas price, do we need a v-8 ?

It's not about getting people to flock to Hyundai/Kia. It's not the fact that they even offer a V8 and Acura doesn't.

The whole point of this argument is the fact that a company once looked down upon, is now offering something that a supposed established luxury brand does not.

I will not argue that Hyundai or Kia is better than Honda or Acura. What I will say is that Honda/Acura better wake up because Hyundai is really stepping into the game with something that Acura SHOULD'VE had already available on their cars. Honda engines are excellent but you're in a new playing field now compared to where they were several years back.

Now, once-crappy car companies are offering more power, better gas mileage, similar features and luxuries, the only luxury car companies offered in the past. For Acura to be this far back in the game is humiliating to them and Kudos go to Hyundai and Kia.

It's not about getting people to flock to Hyundai/Kia. It's not the fact that they even offer a V8 and Acura doesn't.

The whole point of this argument is the fact that a company once looked down upon, is now offering something that a supposed established luxury brand does not.

I will not argue that Hyundai or Kia is better than Honda or Acura. What I will say is that Honda/Acura better wake up because Hyundai is really stepping into the game with something that Acura SHOULD'VE had already available on their cars. Honda engines are excellent but you're in a new playing field now compared to where they were several years back.

Now, once-crappy car companies are offering more power, better gas mileage, similar features and luxuries, the only luxury car companies offered in the past. For Acura to be this far back in the game is humiliating to them and Kudos go to Hyundai and Kia.

Exactly, great post. :thumbup::thumbup:

FWD vs RWD is another topic and I am sure it has been discussed to death. Being RWD does not mean that it's automatically better than FWD just like 8 cyl is not necessary better than 6.

Amen brother.

My point was very simple and straight forward and only SLegacy and a few others got it. :thumbup:

I am a little shocked you posted this. Since you want to pick the V-8 with the lowest output (instead of a Caddy V-8, or Chrysler V-8 let alone SRT8 or V-series) lets go to school.

I purposely picked that V8 because of the blanket statement that people made about V8>V6 period... no if... no but.. It's better period.

1. That lowly V-8 has MORE TORQUE than any Acura. So Town Car>Acura

It also has a big ass trunk so it must be better than any Acura? Seeing your posts in the past, I am not surprised that everything else>>>>Acura?

2. More cylinders=smoother engine. Smoother engine=luxury.Thus why V-8s, V-10s, V-12s up to the W-16 quad turbo is offered. Your wonderful I-4 (I mean that the S2000 is a legend) with 240hp will be buzzy and you will need to shift the snot outta it to move it out its own way compared to a 239hp V-8 Town Car).
3. That fuel economy is on par with the 3.7 V-6 from Acura.;)

Here is another blanket statement. Having more cylinder DOES NOT necessarily mean smoother. I've had 4,6,8,12 cyl cars in the past and there is a lot of engineering go into making a vehicle smooth. There are V6's out there that are just as mooth if not smoother than V8's and there are V8's that ride like a buckling horse.

There is NO DEFENSE to a brand that does not offer a V-8 when now Kia and Hyundai does. :sad:
Acura is supposed to be a luxury brand and now has been passed by Korean brands in regards to offering a V-8 engine. That is utterly pathetic.

I mean, they still don't offer one? Offer?

I am not defending Acura. I like Acura just like I like any other brands. Do I wish they offer a V8? Sure!!! Just like how I wish Lexus would offer the V12. By not offering the V12, does it make Lexus less of a luxury brand than BMW and MB?

Do you rememember the Phaeton? Did it instantly put the VW on the luxury map? Did it make VW > Lexus because VW offered V12 and Lexus didn't? Where did the Phaeton go?

newr forgot to compare the actual engines here, the V-8 in the Borrego vs the V-6 in the MDX.

Do I think the V-8 in the Borrego > the V-6 in the MDX. Yes.

Does it make the Borrego > MDX or Kia > Acura for that matter. NOT

Give me the V-8 in a big heavy truck thank you.

While the I-4 in the TSX makes nearly the same hp as the IS 250, the IS 250 will be the smoother, quieter drive in traffic as it has 2 extra cylinders to help.

That is just simple engineering.

Well I think you can agree with me in that it depends on the vehicle as well. My 4 banger is smoother than my dad's 330, but thats because you can't shift his car without jerking around. So not an engine char., but a char. of the car. Although, I guess the real winner is no cylinders. RX400h in traffic. Smooth as butter. :D

Like SLegacy said. it depends alot on the car overall. A car maybe smoother and more quiet does not necessarily mean because of the 2 extra cylinders under the hood. My C230 has V6 under the hood with a freaking seven sp auto for a whopping 201hp engine. It does not seem smoother nor it is quieter than the I-4 TSX. I am not sure what the 2 extra cylinders do? ;)

"I am not defending Acura. I like Acura just like I like any other brands. Do I wish they offer a V8? Sure!!! Just like how I wish Lexus would offer the V12. By not offering the V12, does it make Lexus less of a luxury brand than BMW and MB?

Do you rememember the Phaeton? Did it instantly put the VW on the luxury map? Did it make VW > Lexus because VW offered V12 and Lexus didn't? Where did the Phaeton go? "

+1

It's not about getting people to flock to Hyundai/Kia. It's not the fact that they even offer a V8 and Acura doesn't.

The whole point of this argument is the fact that a company once looked down upon, is now offering something that a supposed established luxury brand does not.

I will not argue that Hyundai or Kia is better than Honda or Acura. What I will say is that Honda/Acura better wake up because Hyundai is really stepping into the game with something that Acura SHOULD'VE had already available on their cars. Honda engines are excellent but you're in a new playing field now compared to where they were several years back.

Now, once-crappy car companies are offering more power, better gas mileage, similar features and luxuries, the only luxury car companies offered in the past. For Acura to be this far back in the game is humiliating to them and Kudos go to Hyundai and Kia.

Now that Hyundai/Kia offer the V-8 and have six speed automatic so does it meant it's on par with Lexus ? I believe the Genesis have all the luxury any luxury car would wish for. So not only Acura, but Lexus/MB/BMW better watch out then, no ?:uh:

good points newr

Now that Hyundai/Kia offer the V-8 and have six speed automatic so does it meant it's on par with Lexus ? I believe the Genesis have all the luxury any luxury car would wish for. So not only Acura, but Lexus/MB/BMW better watch out then, no ?:uh:

Again, let me say that I'm not trying to argue that Hyundai is better than ANY of those brands.

Hyundai still has quite a distance to go but what I am pointing out is the fact that they started slow but have picked up the pace quite a bit.

It may not be on par with Lexus now but who's to say they won't be in 5-10 years? Look how far Toyota has come with Lexus.

The Genesis is the start for Hyundai. It'll be rough, especially with gas prices the way they are. But with an economic crisis, who's to say that consumers won't turn to Hyundai for the same luxuries as Lexus/BMW/MB for a lower price tag. You'd be surprised how little "title" or "badge" matters when money is the primary issue. Same stuff for cheaper? Bring it to me baby. ;):thumbup:

What I am trying to say about Acura is that they've done exactly the opposite of Hyundai. Started out fast and have slowed significantly. They haven't brought anything with a WOW to the market. Even the TL type-S isn't very "wow-ing". The RL is a disgrace. They've discontinued the RSX (the one car that I really liked from the Acura lineup). The only half decent cars they have are the MDX and the TL.

My point was very simple and straight forward and only SLegacy and a few others got it. :thumbup:



I am not defending Acura. I like Acura just like I like any other brands. Do I wish they offer a V8? Sure!!! Just like how I wish Lexus would offer the V12. By not offering the V12, does it make Lexus less of a luxury brand than BMW and MB?

Do you rememember the Phaeton? Did it instantly put the VW on the luxury map? Did it make VW > Lexus because VW offered V12 and Lexus didn't? Where did the Phaeton go?





Like SLegacy said. it depends alot on the car overall. A car maybe smoother and more quiet does not necessarily mean because of the 2 extra cylinders under the hood. My C230 has V6 under the hood with a freaking seven sp auto for a whopping 201hp engine. It does not seem smoother nor it is quieter than the I-4 TSX. I am not sure what the 2 extra cylinders do? ;)

It is clear not offering a V-12 doesn't hurt Lexus as Lexus came AFTER Acura and is about 3 steps ABOVE Acura currently. Let us not forget Acura was the FIRST luxury brand from Japan here and Lexus came after with V-8s and well the rest is history.

It is CLEAR the reason the Phaeton flopped was simple, no luxury badge. VW tried to offer a true luxury package without the badge. Acura has the badge and offers an off-luxury package.

It is clear not offering a V-12 doesn't hurt Lexus as Lexus came AFTER Acura and is about 3 steps ABOVE Acura currently. Let us not forget Acura was the FIRST luxury brand from Japan here and Lexus came after with V-8s and well the rest is history.

It is CLEAR the reason the Phaeton flopped was simple, no luxury badge. VW tried to offer a true luxury package without the badge. Acura has the badge and offers an off-luxury package.


If Hyundais were to offer a V-12 would it be better than Lexus ? Same logic as if offer V-8 so it's better than Acura.

Second, if Phaeton is flopped due to no luxury badge, could that same logic also apply to Hyundai ? So it can't compete with Acura, no?

If Hyundais were to offer a V-12 would it be better than Lexus ? Same logic as if offer V-8 so it's better than Acura.

Second, if Phaeton is flopped due to no luxury badge, could that same logic also apply to Hyundai ? So it can't compete with Acura, no?

Anything can happen when we talk hypothetically, instead of sticking to the fact Kia/Hyundai has a V-8 and Acura doesn't. I will say, if that ever happened, yes, you can say Hyundai has one-upped Lexus as it IS something Lexus does not offer.
We can actually say CURRENTLY that about the Germans vs Lexus. Lexus does not offer a V-12, thus they are a level below them for prestige. Their AMG/M lines are much larger than the single Lexus F. On the other hand, Lexus is the only luxury brand with viable hybrids.

We have talked about the Genesis and MANY feel it will flop without the badge, which is a very good point. However, the Acura badge almost means nothing at this point except to loyal Honda/Acura buyers, which may scorn the GEnesis b/c it lacks the badge.

That is totally understandable, that is how the market is.:)

I don't know. Just by offering a V-8 does not meant it have surpass Acura. Kia/Hyundais are to compete with Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Nissan etc. not with Acura. I do not see that by offering a V-8 people will flock to them and ignore Honda.

But also with today's gas price, do we need a v-8 ?

You missed my earlier point. Yes Hyundai/Kia are not meant to compete with Acura, just like Acura is not meant to compete with Honda. But guess what ... as I said earlier the most cross-shopped model with the 3G TL has been the Accord.

Please tell me what makes you SO SURE that the Genesis will not compete with the 4G TL, or that the new Accord will not compete with the 4G TL?


The whole point of this argument is the fact that a company once looked down upon, is now offering something that a supposed established luxury brand does not.

Exactly. That is the whole point here, not whether Hyundai/Kia are more prestigious.

wmb0000, what's laughable and downright inexcusable for Honda is this point that tofu has made.