I just like to hear some thoughts and comments.

Editorial from New York Post (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=106&ncid=742&e=4&u=/nypost/20020425/cm_nypost/in_the_name_of__b__u_god__b___u__)

Ethan

This thread could get hairy...

Here's my take. Israel is a small little nation pitted in the middle of a league of hostile Arab terror-sponsoring dictatorships. The United Nations decided to give the Jews a homeland post-WWII and the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, et al are not happy about it. It is Holy land to all Muslims and Jews alike and the fact that the Jews occupy the holy land enrages all the Arab Muslims around the region. And it just so happens that the Koran can be manipulated into brainwashing the Islamic youth into ludicrous notions of "jihad" and whatnot, which creates one of the most evil forces of hate (not war): suicide-homocide bombing. Since many of these under-developed nations have no formalized public education system, terrorist regimes setup "religious schools" and literally, literally brainwash small children into knowing nothing but Islam, sacrifice, and hate. The society in a lot of these places are so backwards that it will probably take decades to establish a lasting peace---and that's only if outside forces intervene.

As to the matter of who I side with, well the Israelis. I believe in their fight and what they are doing is neccessity out of a basic right to defend their land against chaos, murder, and disorder. I think the media is WAY TOO intrusive on the warfront, and every little detail is scrutinized and conjectured five times over before they get the facts straight. Cable news is also way too slanted and biased for m e to stomach sometimes. I'm disgusted when I turn on the tube and see that loudmouthed instigating ****** Ashleigh Banfield. But I digress.

Israel has every right in the world to be combing Palestinian cities such as Jenin, which are terrorist hotbeds where anti-zionist militants rally, burning Israeli flags and shooting kalishnikovs off in the air. There was no "massacre" in Jenin. Images of ruined buildings flood the news wire. What isn't explained is that Palestinian extremists booby-trapped those structures to exlode when Israeli forces came to search them so the Israelis just neutralized the threat by bulldozing the structure and setting off the bombs. Other destroyed buildings were terrorist muntion stockpiles that were destroyed via demolition. Images of dead Palestinian "bystanders", well these same bystanders were strapped with bombs two seconds ago and where rushing Israeli flanks. They were capped so that their suicide missions didn't kill five other people. Bottom line: there was no massacre. We'll let the UN envoy decide that in the weeks to come.

I find it funny how some pro-Palestinian sympathizers are ready to jump on one wrongful death by the hands of an Israeli solider while they turn their heads on the dozens upon dozens of suicide bombers who will picked out a bustling cafe or a packed hotel lobby to devastate. If you think about it, what kind of a sick twisted person would strap on 15 pounds of explosives and walk around a busy marketplace "shopping" for crowds of humans to slaughter and mangle. And the moment before they detonate their bomb, they are not for once second hesitant at the idea that the lives of everyone standing around him or her will be tragically ended in a flash for no cause or explanation whatesoever!

So I'm 100% behind the Israeli defense. Spend a couple of days as an Israeli EMS driver responding to the scene of a daily massacre bombing in the middle of a peaceful city, and these pacifist have the audacity to demand Israel sit on their hands? Or better yet, ask the Israeli government to recognize a reptilian, murderous, pathelogical liar (Arafat) as a political "leader" and hold peace talks with him? Let me tell you, the last thing in the world Arafat wants is peace in the Middle East unless it means the destuction of the Israeli nation. Peace on the West Bank will dethrone Arafat and strip him of his power. I think the fact that he rejected a peace settlement that gave him 95% of his demands is proof enough of that.

Arafat is no better than Bin Laden or Saddam. He is a blatant sponsor and LEADER of terrorism. For Chissakes, he is reluctant after what, 6 weeks of numerous world leaders pleading for him to do something as basic as renounce terrorist attacks on Israel!!! He won't even say that bombing unarmed, unsuspecting civilian women and children is wrong!! I would compare Arafat to Hitler, but I'm afraid he'd take it as a compliment.

The United Nations doesn't belong in this feud unless it's to send in a UN Peacekeeping force with a NATO SFOR entourage to occupy and police the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The French want to voice their opinions too, but who cares about those wussies??? All they ever do these days is whine. The Kuwaitis too, burning American flags!?!!! How dare they?!! Everyone should just butt out of the conflict and allow Israel to eviscerate the terrorist infrastructure from the Palestinian state before settling down to negotiations.

I say we just bomb all the **************s and let God, Jesus, Jihad, Allah, whoever sort them out...religion sucks.

We do that, and we'll be paying $0.25/gallon for 98 octane premium gas to boot!

hmm ...well how would you take it if there was a decision made by the united nations to establish the state of california as lets say a hari-krishna state and determine that you (an established inhbitant of california) should live in lets say big bear california and then the hari-krishna's decided well we want to live in big bear as well and if a couple of californians have to die or be without basic human needs so be it and our big brother (US) will back us no matter what happens ...how long would it take before you as a native californian would fight for what you rightfully regard as your homeland ?? Israel was established through terroist acts therfore it is doomed to be fighting terroism for it's entire existence ...and that's all I have to say about that .......for now

I don't think I quite understand your hari-krishna analogy??? Though I tried...

I did pick up that you said "Israel was established through terrorist acts" and through your analogy that you somehow think that Palestinian Arabs own the land of Israel? Jump back far enough in history, prebiblical times, and you'll see the Jewish people have always lived in the Israel since the province of Judea (600BC??). All I know is that they were conquered and exiled from Israel by the Babylonians and have been scattered and kicked around throughout history since. Zionism wasn't started by the UN, in fact Zionism predates the United Nations. It was recognized by the UN only after movement picked up steam from post-war movement of Turkish Jews, Persian Jews, and Holocaust Jews back to Palestine. But before there was even a Palestine, before Arabs ever lived in the Israel, before Israel was even considered holy land, there were the Jews.

I still don't get how "Israel was established through terrorist acts"???

and I could come up with some interesting points....coming from someone who is from the middle east......(chaldean)...here's a fw words



The Palestinians are fools. Even though I don't back their cause in any way, they could win easily. 3 words....NON VIOLENT MOVEMENT. They would have the sympathy of the whole world.....just march into jerusalem and when it gets on T.V...all the innocent people being slaughtered because they are not fighting back.....and if Isreal decides not to fight...then they win, they get their lands either way. But, they are a primitive people crazy about their religion and because of that they will never accomplish anything in this world and only be known as crazy murderers.

The problem is neither side down there is smart enough to practice: "Comprimise"
Hell its probably not even in their language.

One thing that pisses me off is the Arabs refusal to acknowledge suicide bombers as terrorist actions. There's no sense in killing innocent civilians.

I always have sided with the Israelis because its been them against everyone else.

But right now, they need to pull out; there are better and easier ways of flushing out the terrorists than going in and demolishing entire villages and killing innocent people by accident. Sure a lot of that stuff is unavoidable when going in because the civilians harbor the militants. But my point is they shouldn't have gone in at all.

And the Arab world needs to wake the hell up and call for acknowledgement of suicide bombers as a terrorist activity. If you kill civilians purposefully; thats terrorism IMO. And the celebration of the Palestinians when the WTC fell doesn't put them on my good list either.

IMO, the Arab world is 500 years behind the western world in social development. There haven't been any religious wars by Western countries in 400-500 years. We don't hide behind out religion; and it also makes us have a higher tolerance for people that are different than us. Imagine if we had been like this when we discovered the power of the atom. They use the mask of Islam to do their actions; and I think anywhere in the world where religion is what governs the state, that they don't deserve to be a part of the world community. Religion does nothing but spark hatred and war. If a country is not social developed enough or at least the government, to handle the responsibilities given to them by dangerous technology; then I don't believe they have the right to gain possession of it.

good points bean....

but we went in and took care of our business in afghanistan....why can't isreal.....this is the war on terror....right?

With roots going all the way back to Isaac and Jacob, I dunno if this will ever end.

I've always sided with Israel because, like Bean said, it's always been them vs. everyone around them. Also, it is has been Israel's tough stance on everything and when they decide on a couse of action, they don't move. They don't let other nations influence or push them around. It doesn't mean they don't listen.

But the "terrorist" acts is getting out of hand. Using kids as suicide bombers is, well, let's say a big no-no.

I honestly doubt this conflict will ever end. Barak and Clinton gave Arafat almost everything he wanted and Arafat balked at that offer.

Also, it is a Catch-22 situation for U.S and the world. If Palenstine gets their own nation, then it is because of terrorism that gave them their goal. Also, an idea could be the end justifies the meaning. It is really how one interprets terrorism and warfare.

Too complicated matter.

Ethan

Originally posted by Francis K
good points bean....

but we went in and took care of our business in afghanistan....why can't isreal.....this is the war on terror....right?

thats a severe oversimplification of the matter i think


in afghanistan, we were working in conjunction with many many different nations; and the ones that did the most work were the northern alliance armies

In Israel, they are taking care of everything themselves, taking no input from ANYONE. The USA at least took input from everyone in the international community, collaberated with them, and got the job done. The crazy Taliban were in power; and it was a relatively clear way to battle.

In Israel, there is no clearcut enemy; the militants hide among the general populace. Its not that easy to weed out who is a terrorist and who is not, but it still needs to be done. The situation is similar but still very different.

And those differences require a different tact to quell the rising problems. Israel used the US's tactic but in a totally wrong way. There was a lot of support in Afghanistan for international involvement; the northern alliance welcomed us with open arms. We had alliances with Pakistan, India, and all the surrounding nations of Afghanistan and support to rid the Taliban and crush Al Qeida.

The problem in Israel is similar, but Israel does not have that same support; and Israel also doesn't have such a clearcut path to victory; sure they want to get rid of the terrorists, but who is one? And where are they? And yes Israel has as much of a right to defend itself as the US and the rest of the international community does; but you have to approach different situations with different strategies; because there is no cut-and-dry way of fixing everything and snuffing out terrorism.

Israel needs to pull out immediately and apologize profusely to the Palestinian families that it destroyed. Then set up an admittance model into Israel, let all the Palestinians have their land; and seperate them from Israel, sure let them into Israel, but only with a proper pass with a record attached to it in some database. Properly search every Palestinian that comes into Israel, and vice versa. This will HAVE to be done, because even after peace has been attained; there still will be suicide bombings. Because like racism here in the south; a bunch of ignorant ****s will poison their upcoming family with lies and heresay evidence. And the children will believe it because parents never lie.

Or let Sharon and Arafat duke it out? :D

Ethan

I disagree....it's the same situation just that nobody wants to go up against all the Arab nations and back Isreal....for one reason, it's called oil

I will admit I was afraid to open this thread at first for fear of the vitriolic attacks I was sure would be contained within. I am pleasantly surprised to see a mature, open discussion of the complex issues surrounding this matter.

I don't have anything substantive to add to what others have already said, so I'll just leave it at a compliment of everyone's calmness discussing such an emotional subject.

Or let Sharon and Arafat duke it out?

Sharon would work Arafat! :cool: :rolleyes:

I dunno; they are both pretty old :D

It'd be funny seeing two old fogeys duke it out :)

Like Cartman said in Jimmy vs Timmy... CRIPPLE FIGHT!!!!

Im just wondering do any of you know why Arabs want Isreal, do you know what this war is all about?

Originally posted by Bean
But right now, they need to pull out; there are better and easier ways of flushing out the terrorists than going in and demolishing entire villages and killing innocent people by accident. Sure a lot of that stuff is unavoidable when going in because the civilians harbor the militants. But my point is they shouldn't have gone in at all.

They use the mask of Islam to do their actions.

Religion does nothing but spark hatred and war.

As far as I know, Israel hasn't killed any innocents or targeted civilians. If perhaps a small handful of innocent Palestinians were killed, so what? Why does Israel deserved to be demonized for that? It's called collatoral damage. The United States has one of the worst track records for that because for the last 30 years we've relied heavily on guided missiles and rockets, but only recently have we attained accuracy with them. Hell just last week we accidentally killed four Canadian troops due to miscommunications. I can only imagine how blurred the rules of engagement are when dealing with an urban warfront where the enemy can be a 14 year old boy or an 80 year old lady. It's a tough job, we did it in Vietnam and look what it did to our troops (Mi Lai Massacre). So far the media hasn't uncovered any dead innocents or mass graves and if there was one to be covered, they'd be all over it. The fact that Israel invited a UN Inspection Team to scour Jenin is a gesture of their good faith.


Originally posted by Bean
Also, it is a Catch-22 situation for U.S and the world. If Palenstine gets their own nation, then it is because of terrorism that gave them their goal. Also, an idea could be the end justifies the meaning. It is really how one interprets terrorism and warfare.

Palestine is practically their own nation (autonomy). They have their own flag, their own government, their own courts, and their own laws---independent fro Israels. Short of a military force, they have everything in their lands in their control. Palestinians just want more holy land. The PLO wants Jerusalem, Behtlahem, Nazereth, etc and they want to see all synagogues in Israel burn and fall. Biggie, I guess that answers your questions as well. Arab Muslims want to see Israel fall and the Islamic fundamentalists are bitterly enraged that Jews occupy quote on quote *their* holy lands.

Bean,

If Israel ends the seige in Palestine, the suicide attacks will continue until there is no Israel left standing. The economic impact itself of the suicide attacks has deeply bruised their local economy. No one leaves their homes anymore! The seige on Palestine drastically disrupts the terror network to a similar degree that the United States disrupted the al Qaeda terrorist network. Israel will leave the West Bank as soon as they are finished weeding out it's terrorists and their weapons. They have no intention to occupy. They would have pretty much succeeded by now if not for external terrorist support from Jordan, Syria, and Iraq.

i wasn't sure if i should join this thread or not, fearing that i would be flamed for my opinions on this subject. but looking at all the responses i had to jump in. and please, before anyone jumps on my case know that i am an arab-american who thinks that the killing of civilians is wrong no matter who does it, palestinians or israelis. but IMO it all comes down to this: israel took arab land by force, so it should give it back. the palestinians have every right to fight for their freedom (not by killing civilians though) just like the americans had the right to fight the british for their freedom. here's an interesting article written by a retired american general:

By James J. David
Brigadier General (retired)

Defying a U.S. request, Egypt declined to condemn a suicide bombing that killed eight Israelis and instead said Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation was justified.

I’ll bet the Bush Administration nearly fell over backwards when they heard this reply. As a matter of fact, I almost did myself, considering Egypt is the second largest recipient of U.S. aid. But you know what? I was delighted with Egypt’s response. Don’t get me wrong. In no way do I condone suicide bombings. I don’t condone them anymore than I condone missile strikes in Palestinian villages and refugee camps that kill innocent men, women, and children. I don’t condone them anymore than I condone Israel’s demolition of Palestinian homes that leave thousands of innocent children homeless. I don’t condone them anymore than I condone the hundreds of human rights violations committed by the Israeli government in their brutal occupation of the Palestinian people.

When Palestinian suicide bombers strike, it seems that the United States is the first to condemn these acts and demands all other countries to do the same. Yet when the Israeli government commits over 100 political suicides killing numerous women and children in the process, the United States makes no response. When Israeli troops kill 3 teenage boys with a tank shell only because they “looked suspicious,” the United States says nothing. But just let one suicide bomber kill innocent Israelis and George Bush, Colin Powell, and Condoleezza Rice, are in a foot race to be the first one at the microphone on the White House lawn to condemn these “inexcusable acts.”

What about the 3 Palestinian teenage boys killed while walking to a friend’s house only because they looked suspicious? Or what about the pregnant mother and her unborn child who never survived the trip to the hospital because of unending roadblocks and checkpoints? Do you call these “excusable” acts? Just last week in this latest Israeli incursion into Palestinian villages and refugee camps a group of Palestinian policemen were captured by Israeli soldiers, disarmed, made to kneel in a hallway, and then shot to death. These men were not terrorists; they were Palestinian policemen who were rounded up by Ariel Sharon’s soldiers and murdered in cold blood. Why haven’t we heard President Bush demand an explanation from the Israelis? Why haven’t we heard Colin Powell or Condoleezza Rice condemn these bloody acts. Do they not consider them “inexcusable?” Why is it that only Israelis who are killed by Palestinian suicide bombers get responses from the White House?

And what about our Congressmen and women? Seems that they can’t wait to condemn the Palestinan Authority and Yasser Arafat anytime a suicide bomber strikes but, God forbid, if they would consider condemning Ariel Sharon. Representative Tom Lantos of California, ranking Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, was pushing for a vote on a resolution expressing support for Israel, and Senators Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat, and Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, had a bill to designate the Palestine Liberation Organization a terrorist group. These are the same senators who have accused the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat for initiating and encouraging Palestinians in this 19 month old intifada. Maybe someone should send them a copy of Amnesty International’s 1999 Report on Israel and the Occuppied Territories. This report was written months before the intifada and months before the suicide attacks.

It wasn’t Yasser Arafat or the Palestinian Authority that sparked the intifada; it was the oppressive humiliation and brutal occupation of the Israeli government. According to Amnesty International, “the Israeli authorities have demolished at least 2,650 Palestinian homes in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. As a result 16,700 Palestinians (including 7,300 children) have lost their homes.” Did we ever hear Tom Lantos or Dianne Feinstein ever condemn these brutal acts. Can you imagine what they would have done if Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority demolished just one Jewish home, let alone 2650? Maybe someone should remind these Israeli parrots that Yasser Arafat is a former recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize and Ariel Sharon is about to go on trial in the Belgium Courts for “war crimes.”

Even before this latest military incursion by the Israeli military that has left more than 500 Palestinians dead, some 400 Israeli army reservists had begun to question the relentlessness of the military tactics against a largely impoverished civilian population. It’s time for the United States to do the same. History has proven that a continued blind eye to Israeli violence has led to nothing more than cloaking the continuing oppression and dispossession of the Palestinian people in new robes. The ongoing bloodshed on both sides is more than a far away tragedy. Our tax dollars have financed Israel’s continued violation of human rights and the violence will continue until Washington’s stranglehold by Jewish interest groups is finally lifted.

A just solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict can only be achieved if U.S. policy is based upon American moral principles and a strict adherence to international law, which run counter to the continued Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and the denial of basic rights of freedom to Palestinians under Israeli military rule.

like you said, when Israel ends its seige, the suicide bombings will continue... how is that any different than what it was before? All it did was piss people off.

Yup its called collateral damage, and it was avoidable. The US may have the worst track record on it; I'm not defending the US; but its still wrong regardless.

The day that people can say: "Oh I'm doing this, even though its wrong, so and so does it, and no one *****es at them"... is the day I lose faith in humanity.

Are we all so blind that we have to follow the person in front of us? No. I think Israel needs to be the bigger "man" so to speak, and withdraw; and vocally try to comprimise.

The suicide bombers were there to deter the peace initiative; just a crazy bunch of cooks who wanted to ruin it for everybody; and they succeeded because Sharon was stupid enough to not see past the smoke screen. Now the whole Arab world is even more angry at Israel than before.

As for where this started:

this started back in the day when the united nations set aside a large land area in old palestine and GAVE it to the Jews without even asking the inhabitants of that area; which happened to be the palestinians. They felt sorry for all the Jews that died in the holocaust and decided to take land away from someone else. Takes two wrongs to make a right. :rolleyes:

You boys can quote this stuff happening back in biblical days all you want; but it didn't. And what's done is done and there's not much we can really do about the stupidity and cluelessness of the world from 60 years ago; but we can come to a peaceful comprimise if people would just be more tolerant of others.

right on zz231!!! I feel Israel is not doing any good by destroying Palestinian homes whether or not there militants holed up inside; its their own people for Christ's sake!
Having suicide bombers is ALMOST as senseless as having tanks roll over your home because you fed a wounded Palestinian gunmen who was fighting the Israeli military; not the Israeli populace. Sure suicide bombings are wrong but I think its a bunch of crazy people doing it; I believe the ones fighting against the Israeli military are different. Hell they didn't murder the priests inside the Church of the Nativity did they? Nope. They left them alone.

You guys have to much faith in innocence and one-dimensional politics. First of all, the damage caused in Jenin (the hardest hit city in Palestine) is sparse. Have you seen the satellite photos? I have. About a city block's worth of damage total. I'm almost positive the terrorist bombings in Israel amount to more damage. Secondly, how do you get off labelling all the casualties of the Palestinian raid as bystanders? It's hard to tell by an Associated Press photo of a corpse whether or not he was charging an Israeli position while firing off a kalishikov a few hours earlier. Especially since all the Palestinian dead are disarmed by Israelis and Palestinians after they've fallen. What is EASIER is for Palestinians and their sympathizers to fabricate some story or eye witness account to incriminate Israeli troops and ultimately Sharon. As you may well know, military service is a duty by ALL Israeli citizens. That means that most every Jewish man in Israel has to serve. So these are regular otherwise peaceful men fighting in the Israeli uniform. These aren't Third Reich solidiers that take pleasure in bloody, genocidal death. These are normal everyday Jewish family men and businessmen like you and me dressed in army fatigues defending the interests of their home. You have no idea what kind of hell they take going into Palestine. Everyone there hates them and many are ready to kill them, so everyone becomes a threat. They are constantly in danger of Muslim snipers and bombers. Arafat winning a Nobel Prize, for what??? Some treaty he signed? Look up the history on Arafat. He's a lying snake that has repeatedly broken treaties, straight-faced lied to Sharon, the United States, and the United Nations, and is a known terrorist backer. He certainly isn't a humanitarian. He has the lowest regard for human life. Not only does he SPECIFICALLY target innocent civilians in Israel, but he USES his own people as grenades to exact his attacks. He doesn't seem to care for anyone's life but his own. I'm sure if his back was to the wall, he'd use his own daughter as a human shield against flying bullets. Also remember how Saddam used his own people to manipulate public opinon against US strikes. He stuffed dozens of people overnight in his bomb factories and munitions stores and waited for the US to blow them open with bombs. Then he'd invite the media in to film how the United States slaughtered all these poor people. These Arab villans are very, very good at playing public opinion. Bean, the UN "gave" Israel to the Jews? I'm sorry but as far as archeologists can trace, that whole region has always belonged to the Jewish people. So if the Native American Indians of North America were given a little autonomous state in the USA, would they be "taking" away land from Americans??? Keep in mind Jews have always lived in Palestine and surrounding nations. They weren't just picked up from some cloud and dropped on Palestine. There has always been a Jewish majority in part of the Middle East. Do you think it was WRONG to give them a homeland after so many thousands of years of religious and political persecution? The existance of a Jewish Israel has never been disputed or argued as you have done by anyone that didn't have something to lose by it's realization (Muslims). zz231, what are your sources for the "Palestinian executions"? Would happen to be a column in a Syrian (governemnt subsidized) newspaper would it?:rolleyes: Sorry about the rambling... stream of conscious typing.

sorry to disappoint you lex400sc, but my source is not some arab-government-controlled-newspaper. as stated in my previous post, the article was written by an american general not by me. but if you want a reliable source for casualties then how about The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights:


Fatalities in the al-Aqsa Uprising,: 29 Sept. 2000 - March 31st, 2002,

883 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli security forces' gunfire in the Occupied Territories, of whom 199 were minors under the age of 18.


Ages of the minors killed: Forty One minors were age 17, Thirty Three were age 16, Thirty Seven were age 15, Thirty were age 14, Twenty One were age 13, Eight were age 12 ,Seven were age 11, Seven were age 10, Three were age 9, Five were age 8, Two were age 7, One was age 6, One was age 5, One was age 4, One was age 3, and One was a four month old baby girl.



17 Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli civilians, including One Two month- old baby girl.

Five foreign Citizens were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire.


At least 64 of the civilians killed were extrajudicially executed by Israel. In the course of these assasinations 14 additional civilians were killed.


234 Palestinian security forces personnel were killed by Israeli security forces' gunfire, including One minor age 17. One of them was extrajudicially executed by Israel and Three were killed during assasinationss of Palestinian civilians.
85 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinian civilians.

Eight members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinian security forces gunfire.

At least 34 Palestinian civilians were killed by Palestinians due to suspicion of collobarting with israel. Some of them had Israeli citizenship. Two of them were executed by the Palestinian authority and Four were killed by Palestinian security forces.

Three Palestinian civilians were killed by Palestinian civilians after being convicted in the murder of a Palestinian security officer who had killed Palestinians suspected of collaboration with Israel.

One 12 year old boy was killed by armed palestinians during a confrontation with palestinian civilians who were trying to prevent them from shooting at Idf posts

Within Israel

22 Palestinian civilians, residents of the Occupied Territories, were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire. One of those killed was a minor aged 14.

Six members of the Palestinian security forces were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire.

170 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories. 39 of them were minors under the age of 18. Of them: Six were age 17, Seven were age 16, Ten were age 15, Five were age 14, One was age 13, One was age 12, One was age 10, One was age 8, One was age 7, One was age 4, One was age 3, One was a two years old baby, One was a Eighteen month old baby, One was a nine month old baby, and One was a seven month old baby. Ten of the Israeli civilians were killed by members of the Palestinian security forces.

32 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinian civilians residents of the Occupied Territories.One of them was killed by a member of the Palestinian security forces.

oh, and by the way did you know that......

1 - THAT, when the Palestine Problem was created by Britain in 1917, more than 90% of the population of Palestine were Arabs, and that there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine?

2 - THAT, more than half of the Jews living in Palestine at that time were recent immigrants, who had come to Palestine in the preceding decades in order to escape persecution in Europe?... And that less than 5% of the population of Palestine were native Palestinian Jews?

3 - THAT, the Arabs of Palestine at that time owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?

4 - THAT, during the thirty years of British occupation and rule, the Zionists were able to purchase only 3.5% of the land of Palestine, in spite of the encouragement of the British Government?... And that much of this land was transferred to Zionist bodies by the British Government directly, and was not sold by Arab owners?

5 - THAT, therefore, when British passed the Palestine Problem to the United Nations in 1947, Zionists owned no more than 6% of the total land area of Palestine?

6 - THAT, notwithstanding these facts, the General Assembly of the United Nations recommended that a "Jewish State" be established in Palestine?... And that the Assembly granted that proposed "State" about 54% of the total area of the country?

7 - THAT, Israel immediately occupied (and still occupies) 80.48% of the total land area of Palestine?

Yes that quote was made by a retired General (who he is and his opinion has absolutely no relevance or merit). But what is your source of information for all these statistics and accounts? From the wording of all your points, it's most likely a pro-Palestine or anti-Zionist website. I wonder if they fairly represent the other side of the arguement or the credibility of its sources. I like how you used the term "civilians" in place of "terrorists" too, smooth touch. Refer to Ethan's NY Post article for my defense on that one, enough said.

I'll try not to get into a full on debate on demographics of the region because I myself have not researched all the little details of the region, and I don't feel like doing so because it's Friday. Getting back on track, let's discuss the justification of the current war on terrorism in Israel and the Israeli tactics.

What Manaray said.

Once fighting, always fighting, it will NEVER BE RESOLVED. Think Native Americans, only when they almost DIED OUT did they give up and go to their "territories".

Sad really, maybe some new leaders, new blood.

Hell the U.S sells everyone the weapons anyway, we are to blame too.

you mean to tell me that all 883 palestinians killed are terrorists????? i used the term civilians cause that's what they were, civilians. and those statistics come from The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, not from me, not from any other arab source.

i'm not trying to justify suicide bombing, i'm against it by all means. but think about it for a minute, when saddam invaded kuwait in 1990 we sent hundreds of thousands of troops in there within a few weeks to free kuwait in the name of freedom but yet we allow israel to keep land it occupied by force. bottom line is israel is occupying palestinian land and the palestinians are trying to fight to get it back. it's been going on for decades not months. UN resolutins, backed by the US by the way, demand that israel withdraw from all land it occupied during the 1967 war, and clearly state that settlement built on those lands are illegal. Yet israel chooses to ignore the whole world.

it is worthwhile remembering that "Sharon’s War," began with Palestinians throwing stones, and Israelis killing children in response. When Israelis persisted in killing stone throwers, Palestinians resorted to small arms. When Israel escalated with tanks and invasions, Palestinians began to deploy anti-tank weapons and suicide bombings. The intercepted weapons shipment in January reflected the reality that unless President Bush imposes adult supervision on Israeli and Palestinian leaders, children will continue to die and tactics and weapons will continue to escalate.

We're off topic again, but once again your whole arguement is based off the wrong premise. How is the region rightfully property of Palestine? Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. Look at a map of the Middle East region and how the Arabs and Muslims politically have more than 99% of the land in the region. Do you think it's really that wrong to give the Jewish people a small piece of land the size of Massachusetts?

883 terrorists, well I'm no first hand account, but yes. Most of those deaths were of people that actively and willingly took a role AGAINST Israeli soldiers. If you stand in the way of the flying bullets to throw stones at the riot poilce you give up your own right to personal safety. Let's not make it into what it wasn't either. It wasn't armed soldiers versus children with stones. Yeah some idiot kids came into the fight by throwing stones and molotov cocktails, but the fight was mainly against armed Palestinian revolutionaries.

Also Saddam took Kuwait for it's oil and robbed the entire aristocratic class of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of property. Similar to Hitler taking Jewish wealth in the 1930s (ironic how it all fits together). Israel is not trying to annex Palestine, they are removing the terrorist threat from it before leaving. And yes it's the same as the United State's assault on Afghanistan. We had no support in Middle East when we went in. ARe you kidding, Yemen, Sryia, Unitedd Arab Emirates, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Egypt, they all do the same thing as the Taliban did. The US was kicked in the balls on 9/11 and none of the Arab Nations dared to stand in the way of 250 million pissed off Americans so they all shut up and pledged support. Anyway, Israel hasn't occupied any city on the West Bank for more than two weeks before leaving it. In Ramallah, they've removed all their forces except those surrounding Arafat's compound. Even as the Israeli troops left the cities, Palestinians were shooting them in the backs. The Iraq connection you made doesn't stand. Israel isn't an occupying force, do you consider the FBI searching your house for illegal contraband police occupation?

Yes you are correct: children will die, but the difference here is that the Jewish children don't have a choice in the matter whereas Muslim children do. Israeli elementary schools have blast-proof doors, bullet-proof barred windows, iron-clad gated perimeter, and armed guards around the entrances. The hotels and marketplace are deserted. This is what Israel has been reduced to. Isn't it ironic that Israel has become the most dangerous place in the world for Jews?

israel is not an occupying force? what about the land it's still holding since 67? lol. if you don't think they're an occupying force then you're missing the whole thing. what's the conflict is all about then? what do the palestinians want?

do a lttle research about the 1967 war and you'll know what the fighting is all about.

and i'm reall sorry that you see the kids fighting for their land throwing rocks at tanks as idiot kids. you see it as stupidity, i see it as desperation.

no matter what anyone says, israel is illegally occupying land it took by force more than thirty years ago and doesn't want to give it back, that's what the conflict is all about.

you also say that it wasn't armed soldiers versus children with stones. you're wrong there, that's exactly what it was. again do a little reseach on the uprising in the late 80's and the uprising since 9/00 and you'll find out that it was just that, children versus soldiers.

and yes, if the fbi came into my house to search it and stayed for more than 30 years then i would consider it police occupation. lol

When I said they aren't an occupying force, I was speaking in terms of their current military presence in the West Bank and Gaza. If you are referring to the Six Day War well, yes Sharon considers the West Bank and the Gaza Strip parts of Israel, but both regions are autonomous from Israeli laws.

looks like i misunderstood you, sorry.

well back to the children fighting for their freedom, In the struggle waged by the jewish organizations before 1948 and during israel's War of Independence, boys and girls played an important part. The arms training of Palestinian boys is no different from the training of the jewish Gadna youth battalions. The boy who, in 1948, destroyed a Syrian tank at kibbutz Deganya has become an israeli national hero. When a people fights for its very existence and freedom, its youth cannot but take part. the Irgun by the way was defined by the British as a terrorist organization, and it had plenty of young jewish kids under the age of 16.
It is an illusion to think that Palestinian parents can restrain their children from going out into the street and throwing stones, when they live under a cruel occupation and their brothers and sisters provide examples of heroism and self-sacrifice. It is natural for the Palestinian people to be proud of them.

Joan of Arc, by the way, was 16 years old when she led the French army into battle.

lex400sc, the reason arabs want that land is because it holds one of our most holy mosqes, it is believed that one night mohamed was awakend from his sleep by angel to be taken to palistine, he was taken to a small mosque where it was beleived that he met all the prophets before him, they had a prayer and then he was told to stand on a rock, this rock took mohammed to the 7 levels of heaven and finaly to god, this is where god spoke to mohamed. This is why palistine is a very import area in the Islam it is where the largest mosque in the world is built, it is also the place where the rock stand ( and it is still floating in mid air by the way ) it is also located in Isreal. I am sure there are other reasons why palastenies want there land back, but to most muslims this is whats important.

and by the way if you ask any arab ( except for a palastenien ) they will tell you that arafat is a 2 faced unworthy bastard that no one likes, and that dude will not DIE you would be surprised on how many assasination attempts there were on him:rolleyes:

Ok, I'm trying to stay out of this...hehehe...but I found a very interesting article...makes some good points...now I'm not for or against either side as I only know what I am told by the news agencies...I know how information can be manipulated so I'd rather stay out of this one....but I do think that terrorist acts are not acceptable no matter who's doing it (ok, well unless it's the good ol' USA...we gotta keep the world in line!! :) )...anyways...

-------------------------------------------------

By Mitch Albom, Detroit Free Press, April 14, 2002

When suicide bombers attacked America last September, nothing could stop our retaliation. Yet when suicide bombers attack Israel, week after week, Israel is told -- even by Americans -- to back off.

When we bombed Afghanistan, where Al Qaeda was organized, it was a mission to "smoke them out." Yet when Israel attacks its hornet's nest of terror, it is accused of "occupying" and told to retreat.

When we fired on Kabul, from the safety of the air, we said innocent people would be caught in the crossfire and, sadly, this was war. Yet when Israeli soldiers go door to door in Palestinian areas, the most dangerous yet humane way to root out terrorists, we call them "murderers" the moment one civilian is killed.

When Osama bin Laden denied any involvement with Sept. 11, we said he was lying and vowed to get him "dead or alive." Yet when groups tied to Yasser Arafat boldly claim responsibility for suicide attacks, Israel is told not to harm their leader.
When we struck back against extremist terror, Israel was behind us.

When Israel strikes back, we say, "Enough is enough."

You tell me. Is that hypocritical?

When we were scorned by critics who thought our treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo was inhumane -- because we bound them, gagged them and blindfolded them -- we bristled and said, "These are dangerous people." Yet when Israel demands certain Palestinians strip and stay on the ground, we say this is outrageous and must be stopped.

When a videotape emerges showing bin Laden speaking of Sept. 11, we say it proves the man is evil. Yet when Israelis produce documents to show Arafat funds terror, they are accused of forgery.

When certain Muslims suggest we hear out bin Laden and Al Qaeda, that we understand their cause and the reasons for their anger, we grit our teeth and say those people want us dead, why should we talk to them? Yet when Israel says the same thing, it is told it must be sympathetic and negotiate -- even with people who deny Israel's right to exist.

You tell me. Is that hypocritical?

War means death. There are innocent victims -- Palestinians as well as Israelis -- on all sides of this equation.

But let's be consistent. Our nearly 3,000 dead in the World Trade Center was horrific, but Israel, relative to its small population, has lost a half-dozen World Trade Centers in the last 18 months -- all to suicide bombing. Every time you see five Israelis dead in an attack, it is like 250 Americans dead here. How many of those events would it take for us to lash out with all our power?

Would we pause and consider that the enemy wanted its own state? Or that its people were "desperate"?

No way. For radical groups such as Hamas and Hizballah, statehood is not a stop sign anyhow. They want Israel obliterated, state or no state, the same way bin Laden wants Westerners obliterated. Bin Laden had his own country. He had billions. Did land and money keep him from murder?

No. No more than desperation drives you to it. There have been desperate people in Rwanda and Bosnia, yet they never chose to blow themselves up. There have been occupied people across the globe -- even right here, with American Indians. Would we accept if descendants of the Sioux Nation began blowing themselves up in shopping malls?

There is a difference between "desperate" and "brainwashed." Desperate people want to make their lives better. Brainwashed people think "kaboom" sends you to heaven. Innocents are being killed on both sides. The difference is, for Palestinian terrorists, those are the targets.

We can tell the Israelis to stop, but we wouldn't stop. We can tell them to negotiate, but we wouldn't negotiate. We can see their dead and say it hurts as much as ours, but we don't mean it. Because if it were ours, we'd be doing what they're doing. And we'd damn anyone who spoke against us.

Being jewish, having my dads side of his family living in israel, and my sister who just moved to ny because Hebrew University cancelled her program with UC school system, I am pretty involved in whats going on. Ive been to almost every rally including the one in Washington, and i think this is areally good thread.


A war is a war, and there is a war going on. In a war, innocent people die, and far too many israelis have died. Yes, i have sympathy towards the dead innocent palestinians too, but they cannot have a war with us and expect us to pull our tanks out of the way and let Arafat bomb the lving **** out of us.

Does anyone remember the israeli guy who lost his way while driving, was linched from a building, and then cut and killed in two pieces by a window screen, while hundreds of people stared and clapped???


Israel might be killing innocent people, but in no way are they doing in the way the palestinians are doing it.

My aunt is an actress and has a show that she puts on with eight of her palestinians friends on how to coap with them and hownot every person is evil.. its really interesting... ill let you guys know when shes in LA if you want...

Originally posted by Toog4me
My aunt is an actress and has a show that she puts on with eight of her palestinians friends on how to coap with them and hownot every person is evil.. its really interesting... ill let you guys know when shes in LA if you want...

i totally agree, not everyone is evil just like not everyone is good. i also have alot of jewish friends and we get along real good, we don't see eye to eye on some issues but still friends.

i guess history has shown that violence doesn't get anybody anywhere and doesn't resolve any problems. it hasn't worked for the palestinians and it sure hasn't worked for israel. god how i wish they could compromise, then no one would have to die.

and by the way biggie27 is right, no body liked arafat, palestinians or arabs. but the latest events have made him a national hero among the palestinians and a symbol of resistance. how odd !!!!!

The only thing I have to say is this: These two groups have been at if for thousands of years...What's to stop them from fighting another few thousand years?

Many of them modern problems in the Middle East can be attributed to the aftermath of WWI, so unless someone can go back in time and fix those planning problems...Well, I don't know how much hope there is and it makes me sad...:( :( :(

these groups haven't been at it for thousands of years...

hell Islam hasn't even been around but for 1500 years or so

these groups have been at it for 60 years when the UN grabbed the land for the Jews after the holocaust...

the US media makes it sound like this problem has been around for so long and it hasn't; it just seems that way...

groups that HAVE been at it for thousands of years... Tibet and China is the only prominent one i can think of...

you gotta remember; modern civilization has only been around for like 3k years or so :)

Originally posted by Bean
these groups haven't been at it for thousands of years...

hell Islam hasn't even been around but for 1500 years or so

these groups have been at it for 60 years when the UN grabbed the land for the Jews after the holocaust...

the US media makes it sound like this problem has been around for so long and it hasn't; it just seems that way...

groups that HAVE been at it for thousands of years... Tibet and China is the only prominent one i can think of...

you gotta remember; modern civilization has only been around for like 3k years or so :)

You know what? Ah crap, I'll just let this go...I'm too tired.

You are looking at this through a very closed minded and synical viewpoint in my opinion. No offense....but that is the whole reason why this conflict cannot be solved.


If we used your reasoning and logic then the nation you live in should be given back to Britain or a Tribe of Indians. Half the free world should be given to Rome and the Middle East........well I'm pretty sure that belongs to my ancestors the Sumerians/Babylonians/Mesopotamians/Chaldeans doesn't it? I could go and suicide bomb some people in Iraq because they took my lands along with some Native Americans over here, but sorry, I'm not a neandrethal only interested in killing innocent civilians.


It's called life, war, politics and basically.......natural selection........what do you want the Isreal to do with their army....throw rocks back to make it fair?


I'm not Jewish, I'm Roman catholic and I am from the middle east. But I also am not nieve.

Originally posted by Francis K
It's called life, war, politics and basically.......natural selection........what do you want the Isreal to do with their army....throw rocks back to make it fair?

lol, no, but there's something most countries have and it's called riot control police. so you're telling me that it's ok in your opinion to use live bullets against unarmed civilians?? whenever innocent palestinians die all i hear is that's life, it's politics, war casulties, they asked for it. but when an innocent israeli dies it's terrorism. IMO you're a terrorist if you kill an unarmed civilian, wether you strap a bomb to yourself (palestinian suicide bombers) or put on an army suit (israeli soldiers), it makes no diffirence. if that makes me close minded then oh well, i guess i am. :rolleyes:

again, i'm totally against suicide bombing and the killing of innocent people, but i do think that the palestinians have the right to fight for their land. if my neighbor came into my house and occupied my bedroom then i will fight him till my last breath, i won't go and kill his family, but i will fight HIM to the best of my ability, even if he had a gun and all i had was rocks.

Originally posted by zz231
lol, no, but there's something most countries have and it's called riot control police.

So where are the riot control police to stop the rock throwers? :confused: I know the USA sent the Palestinian Authority machine guns, etc to help setup the Palestinian Police. I guess the PA thought the guns would be better served not controlling their own and used on Israelis. I mean if no bullets are fired at rock throwers the Palestinian PR machine dies out, now doesn't? So let em throw rocks and possibly die by Israeli guns, it only helps the Palestinian cause with the Arab world. Sad part is, in the end no one wins from this.

Originally posted by zz231


lol, no, but there's something most countries have and it's called riot control police. so you're telling me that it's ok in your opinion to use live bullets against unarmed civilians?? whenever innocent palestinians die all i hear is that's life, it's politics, war casulties, they asked for it. but when an innocent israeli dies it's terrorism. IMO you're a terrorist if you kill an unarmed civilian, wether you strap a bomb to yourself (palestinian suicide bombers) or put on an army suit (israeli soldiers), it makes no diffirence. if that makes me close minded then oh well, i guess i am. :rolleyes:

again, i'm totally against suicide bombing and the killing of innocent people, but i do think that the palestinians have the right to fight for their land. if my neighbor came into my house and occupied my bedroom then i will fight him till my last breath, i won't go and kill his family, but i will fight HIM to the best of my ability, even if he had a gun and all i had was rocks.

Here's the difference that you aren't seeing again... Dead Palestinians are aggressors, attackers, fighters. They are willing participants in battle. And there are two prominent types: the Muslims that fight a two-sided battle, and the coward pigs that target civilians only. Dead Israelis on the other hand are either soldiers serving their country or innocent, unwitting, civilian bystanders that are not engaging in any fight yet suffer them anyway. The Palestinian fighters should be compared to Israeli soldiers. And Israeli soldiers that die in combat are treated as casualties of war, not victims of massacre. This is the same light the Palestinian fighters should be viewed in. So what if the Palestinian fighters don't wear uniforms and associate with a formal army? They are still fighters!

And Israeli soldiers aren't just rolling into towns and gunning down schoolyards and grocery stores randomly, okay? Save for a few isolated, media-exploited incidents, Israeli soldiers are practicing very good judgment. Palestinian fighters, even those throwing stones and molotov cocktails, are using lethal force. They are using weapons, and weapons are weapons. A stone hurled at your head will kill you. A Stone launched from a slingshot will kill you. A molotov cocktail exploding into a pool of fire around you... will kill you. These people (Palestinians) know exactly what they are involving themselves in, so don't play down their involvement. Don't confuse today's situation either: most all the Palestinians are well armed with assault rifles, sniper rifles, grenades, land mines, and other explosives.

For the most part, I have no sympathy towards the dead Palestinians. I'm not racist against them, but most that died got what they asked for. Yeah I said it! If they put themselves in the situation to get killed, that is their own cross to bear. If they have a single ounce of logical deduction in their heads, or even a remote concern for their own lives, it would be very easy for them to survive the Israeli presence on teh West Bank. If you want to live, you either flee the town, keep a low profile, or coorperate with the troops in their searches. It's THAT simple! You don't do stupid things like run towards armed troops, throw rocks at armed troops, drive a van through an Israeli checkpoint, or hang out in the vicinity of an intense fire fight. Since these people make choices to put themselves in harms way, they are either willing to die or they have little concern for their own lives.

Ok, so if your neighboor came into your house and tried to take it, yes you could kill him and beat him up and fight for your home. Well call you ISRAEL...

But does your neighboor, well call him PALESTINE, have the right to come onto your property and do that **** to you? Hell no!!! And theres no excuse...

All I have to say is Israel exists today only by the grace of God-from the beginning of that nation it has constantly tried to be destroyed but has miraculously survived against all odds-Proof positive that the Bible is true-we can take it to the bank that Israel WILL survive and will be here until the end of time even though many nations surrounding her will try to destroy -These include Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq and even Russia according to the bible.It is in the best interest of our nation to ALWAYS help defend Israel as the bible also says that God will bless those who bless Israel. Whether anyone believes that or not makes no difference-God said it so it's true! May He bless Israel AND the USA!!

Originally posted by chuckerst
All I have to say is Israel exists today only by the grace of God-from the beginning of that nation it has constantly tried to be destroyed but has miraculously survived against all odds-Proof positive that the Bible is true-we can take it to the bank that Israel WILL survive and will be here until the end of time even though many nations surrounding her will try to destroy -These include Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq and even Russia according to the bible.It is in the best interest of our nation to ALWAYS help defend Israel as the bible also says that God will bless those who bless Israel. Whether anyone believes that or not makes no difference-God said it so it's true! May He bless Israel AND the USA!!

About 98% of what you say is true...Israel today DOES exist by God's will. And you are correct that human opinion makes no difference in this case...Israel will indeed survive. But your grouping of the Armegeddon Anti-Israel group is a little off.....Egypt has no desire to invade Israel any more (thanks to President Sadat). Neither do the Russians, for a number of reasons. What you are doing is misinterpreting the "Gog and Magog" phrase in Revelation. Armeggedon will most likely be a group of radical Muslim terrorists. Fortunately, thanks to President Bush (and NO thanks to the French and Germans), Saddam will not be one of them.

Originally posted by chuckerst
All I have to say is Israel exists today only by the grace of God-from the beginning of that nation it has constantly tried to be destroyed but has miraculously survived against all odds-Proof positive that the Bible is true-we can take it to the bank that Israel WILL survive and will be here until the end of time even though many nations surrounding her will try to destroy -These include Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq and even Russia according to the bible.It is in the best interest of our nation to ALWAYS help defend Israel as the bible also says that God will bless those who bless Israel. Whether anyone believes that or not makes no difference-God said it so it's true! May He bless Israel AND the USA!!



Israel exists today solely because of Great Britian's Balfour Accord and subsequent sanctioning from the United States.

Originally posted by jpa2400
Israel exists today solely because of Great Britian's Balfour Accord and subsequent sanctioning from the United States.

No...if we and the Brits had not been around, the modern state of Israel would have come about by other means. God can work miracles any way He so chooses. He is too large and powerful to be painted into a U.S.-British corner, but it's nice to know that He DID use us.

Nope-I believe that is wrong-The Bible is very clear that Egypt and Russia are part of the group that goes against Israel-Maybe they don't have a problem with Israel NOW-but they will!!

Originally posted by mmarshall
No...if we and the Brits had not been around, the modern state of Israel would have come about by other means. God can work miracles any way He so chooses. He is too large and powerful to be painted into a U.S.-British corner, but it's nice to know that He DID use us.

Well if he is so powerful, why mess around with this little stuff and hand the “rightful” owners as some people say their entire chunk of land.


1. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Lebanon

2. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Syria

3. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Iraq

4. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Kuwait

5. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Saudi Arabia

6. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Jordan

7. Israel’s territory currently occupied by Egypt

Q: What will the borders of Israel be once she is fully restored and the Abrahamic covenant is completely fulfilled?

A: In Genesis 15:18 God promised Abraham the whole land from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. Again in Deut 11:24 the Israelites were to inherit all the land from the desert to Lebanon, from the Euphrates to the Western Sea.

2 Chronicles 9:26 describes the Kingdom of Solomon as extending from the Euphrates ("the River") to the Land of the Philistines (Mediterranean coast) down to the border of Egypt.

The most detailed description of the future boundaries of Israel are to be found in Ezekiel 47:15-20

In short, the Land of Israel will eventually include all the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea, and stretch north of the Jordan's headwaters all the way to the Euphrates and south to "the River of Egypt", evidently a small river in the Sinai which marked the Egyptian border in ancient times.

So yes, the Jews have a right to the land they presently live in known as Israel!!!!! If the radical Muslims continue on the path they presently are on Israel should take back more of it's territory.

Originally posted by SharpLS-96
Q: What will the borders of Israel be once she is fully restored and the Abrahamic covenant is completely fulfilled?

A: In Genesis 15:18 God promised Abraham the whole land from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. Again in Deut 11:24 the Israelites were to inherit all the land from the desert to Lebanon, from the Euphrates to the Western Sea.

2 Chronicles 9:26 describes the Kingdom of Solomon as extending from the Euphrates ("the River") to the Land of the Philistines (Mediterranean coast) down to the border of Egypt.

The most detailed description of the future boundaries of Israel are to be found in Ezekiel 47:15-20

In short, the Land of Israel will eventually include all the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea, and stretch north of the Jordan's headwaters all the way to the Euphrates and south to "the River of Egypt", evidently a small river in the Sinai which marked the Egyptian border in ancient times.

So yes, the Jews have a right to the land they presently live in known as Israel!!!!! If the radical Muslims continue on the path they presently are on Israel should take back more of it's territory.


Yeah they have a right to the land now, because the UN sliced them a chunk off. They don’t have a right to the land because the bible says so.

Wow, thank you for the... :egads:

Originally posted by lex400sc
Here's the difference that you aren't seeing again... Dead Palestinians are aggressors, attackers, fighters.

You even said in another post that you don't want to debate this because you haven't fully read up on the issue... why do you keep on making statements based on things you self-admittingly have little knowledge on? You honestly think only a tiny handful of palestinian deaths are innocent civilians?? Even though you've yet to back up a single statement of yours with ANY documentation, yet you run to ask others where they get their information from, I searched and found information from an american publication, The Washington Times, June 23, 2004. Hightlights include:

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040623-060758-3056r.htm

"...more than 40,000 Palestinians were wounded and 62,888 houses were damaged or totally destroyed in the violence."

"Among the Palestinian casualties, 617, including 233 females, were younger than 18 years old and 196 people died at Israeli roadblocks, including patients, pregnant women, children and the elderly."

"...30 members of medical teams and rescue workers from the civil defense authority were also killed."

Now thats just one tabulation counting only from 2000 to present. How again are we going to say all of these people were asking for it?? Or that they were all evil and aggresive?

Humans are humans. What makes an Israeli life worth more than a Palestinian life? I agree its terrible when there's a suicide attack... it should not happen.


Here's a link to a pdf file of one of the DOZENS of UN resolutions against Israel (up until 1995 alone, I have counted 65).
http://ods-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N00/567/31/PDF/N0056731.pdf?OpenElement

here's a quote from it "Gravely concerned in particular about the dangerous situation resulting from
actions taken by the illegal armed Israeli settlers in the occupied territory, as
illustrated by the massacre of Palestinian worshippers by an illegal Israeli settler in
Al-Khalil on 25 February 1994, and during recent weeks,"

And you still think its palestinian militiants vs brave israeli soldiers?

http://ods-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N00/567/37/PDF/N0056737.pdf?OpenElement

This UN resolution details the negative impacts on the Palestinian people and the illegal activity of Israel in the occupied areas. "Concerned about the continuing violation of the human rights of the
Palestinian people by Israel, the occupying Power"

Yes, I agree there are many terrorists on the Palestinian side of the border. I condemn each and every act of violence against any civilian, regardless of race or ethnicity. But what most people do not see is the existance of Israel's STATE TERRORISM.

Originally posted by Faraaz23
You even said in another post that you don't want to debate this because you haven't fully read up on the issue... why do you keep on making statements based on things you self-admittingly have little knowledge on? You honestly think only a tiny handful of palestinian deaths are innocent civilians??

Read the date bro :rolleyes:, this thread is two years old and so are the opinions. If you've followed any of my political posts in the last two years, you'd see that I'm clearly pro-Palestinian, anti-Sharon. Education is a wonderful thing............

Oops, my bad... someone brought this thread back to life after 2 years, didn't notice. No offense by the way, I meant nothing against you as a person. But never the less, for whatever debate is still going on... my argument holds.

"I'm clearly pro-Palestinian"

You are one of few :thumbup:

This thread is one of the many that more accurately portrays my political opinions as of today....

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99124&highlight=jew

* another

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114405&highlight=semites

Although I do agree with many of your ideals but come on........you open up this thread to make points like that? What did you do, search for the word "Isreal" and post in everything that popped up?




Anyway, if the Palestinians were truly passionate about their cause and did not just want to kill people all they have to do start is a NON-violent movement, any country would be a fool not to support them if they took this route.

But take it from me, it will never happen. My country, Iraq, was taken over many centuries ago by these same Muslims and all they know is to kill, please excuse me making such a nieve comment but I truly cannot see any other reason and have expierenced it first, even in our great nation.


Their symbol is the knife...not a knife as in power or overcoming obstacles, a knife as in believe what we believe or you die. I should know first hand, I have many relatives who have fallen to that knife by Saddam Hussein, most of my family has muslim names instead of Catholic for fear of death just as an example, I won't get into any stomach curdling details.





I am not someone to hate just for the simple fact of differences but I could never support any muslim nation after they raveged the birthplace of civilization and desecreted the once proud land of Mesopotamia that is now Iraq. You know Saddam Hussein knocked down all of the Babylonian monuments and ruins of the very first civilization to reconstruct them under his own name? He also slaughtered all of our priests and burned all of our books that had the history of our people in it.


I guess it is just their way......

Originally posted by SharpLS-96
Q: What will the borders of Israel be once she is fully restored and the Abrahamic covenant is completely fulfilled?

A: In Genesis 15:18 God promised Abraham the whole land from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. Again in Deut 11:24 the Israelites were to inherit all the land from the desert to Lebanon, from the Euphrates to the Western Sea.

2 Chronicles 9:26 describes the Kingdom of Solomon as extending from the Euphrates ("the River") to the Land of the Philistines (Mediterranean coast) down to the border of Egypt.

The most detailed description of the future boundaries of Israel are to be found in Ezekiel 47:15-20

In short, the Land of Israel will eventually include all the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea, and stretch north of the Jordan's headwaters all the way to the Euphrates and south to "the River of Egypt", evidently a small river in the Sinai which marked the Egyptian border in ancient times.

So yes, the Jews have a right to the land they presently live in known as Israel!!!!! If the radical Muslims continue on the path they presently are on Israel should take back more of it's territory.

All your quotes are no probably in conflict with other quotes from the Koran.

Using supposedly 'divinely inspired writings' to justify invasion, genocide, domination, subversion, etc., is a root of much evil in the world.

Originally posted by bitkahuna
All your quotes are no probably in conflict with other quotes from the Koran.

Using supposedly 'divinely inspired writings' to justify invasion, genocide, domination, subversion, etc., is a root of much evil in the world.
I whole heartedly agree with you bit... God would not want us to kill people- atleast not my god.

Originally posted by sc400texas
I whole heartedly agree with you bit... God would not want us to kill people- atleast not my god.

Agreed...God does not enjoy killing, but there is a difference between murder, self-defense, and capital punishment. The Commandment in its original text said "Thou shalt not murder", not "Thou shalt not Kill ". Murder is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being who has not committed a capital offense. It is considered ( and should be considered ) a capital offense. Manslaughter is the accidental killing of an innocent person. Capital punishment (legitimate execution by the state) is not murder....it is justice served for a capital offense.
I'm GLAD I live in a state that not only has the death penalty on the books but actually executes murderers. I would not live in a state or country that does otherwise. It is just as much of a shameful act to let murderers go free as it is to execute innocent people.

wow, this is a crazy ass thread. Bottom line... Israel is not a state or country, it doesnt exist. Terrorism? That is what Israeli soldiers do when they invade little towns and rape little girls along with killing the kids and women that watch in fear. THATS TERRORISM! Palestine will prevail....

Originally posted by BigMoNYC
wow, this is a crazy ass thread. Bottom line... Israel is not a state or country, it doesnt exist. Terrorism? That is what Israeli soldiers do when they invade little towns and rape little girls along with killing the kids and women that watch in fear. THATS TERRORISM! Palestine will prevail....

You're living in a dream world. Like it or not, Israel is here to stay. I don't mean to be rude on the forum here, but whether you believe it or not is not the issue. In fact, whether I believe it or not is not the issue either. History will prove...it already is proving....that the Israelis are going to stay right where they are. The Palestinians should have seen by now thet terrorism and suicide bomings will NOT dislodge the israelis.
I really feel sorry for the low intelligence level of the Palestinians....they are simply blinded and cannot see that their actions are getting them nowhere and are just a waste of time. They would be wise.....VERY wise...... to just simply stop the fighting and make a treaty with the Israelis like the Egyptians did. Maybe now that Arafat is going to be out of the picture they will come to their senses.

Originally posted by BigMoNYC
wow, this is a crazy ass thread. Bottom line... Israel is not a state or country, it doesnt exist. Terrorism? That is what Israeli soldiers do when they invade little towns and rape little girls along with killing the kids and women that watch in fear. THATS TERRORISM! Palestine will prevail....

This is probably one of the most ignorant posts I have seen in MY LIFE! Very sad really :thumbdn: :thumbdn: :thumbdn:


Originally posted by mmarshall
You're living in a dream world. Like it or not, Israel is here to stay. I don't mean to be rude on the forum here, but whether you believe it or not is not the issue. In fact, whether I believe it or not is not the issue either. History will prove...it already is proving....that the Israelis are going to stay right where they are. The Palestinians should have seen by now thet terrorism and suicide bomings will NOT dislodge the israelis.
I really feel sorry for the low intelligence level of the Palestinians....they are simply blinded and cannot see that their actions are getting them nowhere and are just a waste of time. They would be wise.....VERY wise...... to just simply stop the fighting and make a treaty with the Israelis like the Egyptians did. Maybe now that Arafat is going to be out of the picture they will come to their senses.

I agree 1000% :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Originally posted by BigMoNYC
wow, this is a crazy ass thread. Bottom line... Israel is not a state or country, it doesnt exist. Terrorism? That is what Israeli soldiers do when they invade little towns and rape little girls along with killing the kids and women that watch in fear. THATS TERRORISM! Palestine will prevail....

I see we have a fairly new member that decided to join the debate forum with such outrageous B.S. statements!!!! :thumbdn: :egads:

Your statement was purely to inflame and provoke people on this board since your mass murderer, scum of the earth, king of the terrorists, idol Arafat is DEAD!!! :thumbup:
Another terrorist bites the dust!!! :thumbup:

Only in your dreams it doesn't exist!!! Try sleeping less and learning more!!!! You have a couple of screws loose and are quite sick to say & think Israeli solders rape little girls while women watch in fear!!!!

You should be banned from the debate forum IMO!!!!!

Originally posted by mmarshall
Maybe now that Arafat is going to be out of the picture they will come to their senses.

In an area of constant violence and bloodshed, this is the small beacon of light. Prior to this whole Arafat-Coma situation, I never thought there would be any hope for peace, but this just MIGHT be able to help.

We can only hope.

WOW!!! I cant believe I missed this thread.

Quick question for everyone before I enter the waters...



Do you guys see this as a religious conflict or a land dispute?

Ibrahim

I don't even see it as a conflict...the matter is settled. That's the point I was making to BigMo a couple of posts ago. The area between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River is Jewish land, period. Whether one views it as a religious matter of God giving it to the Jews (as I do) or simply as a secular real estate matter, it really makes no difference. Israel asks no more than what it was divinely given 3000 years ago...a comparatively small stretch of land. But that land belongs to THEM, and they are NOT going to give it up, Palestinians or no Palestinians. When they DID offer to give some of it up, Arafat time after time spurned them....now the Palestinians have lost it forever.
I'm sorry if this statement offends any CL members of Palestinian or Arab background.... but I have to call this like I see it. To fight the Israelis in this part of the world is simply a waste of time and human life....the Israelis are going nowhere.

Originally posted by mmarshall
I don't even see it as a conflict...the matter is settled. That's the point I was making to BigMo a couple of posts ago. The area between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River is Jewish land, period. Whether one views it as a religious matter of God giving it to the Jews (as I do) or simply as a secular real estate matter, it really makes no difference. Israel asks no more than what it was divinely given 3000 years ago...a comparatively small stretch of land. But that land belongs to THEM, and they are NOT going to give it up, Palestinians or no Palestinians. When they DID offer to give some of it up, Arafat time after time spurned them....now the Palestinians have lost it forever.
I'm sorry if this statement offends any CL members of Palestinian or Arab background.... but I have to call this like I see it. To fight the Israelis in this part of the world is simply a waste of time and human life....the Israelis are going nowhere.

Well said mmarshall and I totally agree :thumbup:

Glad you settled it; will you let everyone else know it's settled, cause most people are under the impression there's a war/conflict for the land.

It''s unfortunate that the Muslims take the blame when Christians ran the Jews off the land. But that's besides the point, there are people like you on the Palestinian side that dont see a conflict just like yourself and they are willing to die for it. People with your mentality whether pro-palestinian or pro-Israeli will eventually come to the famous conclusion "an opinion is like and A-hole, everybody has one"

Next time "Christians" want to run people off a piece of land, dont try to fix 2000 years later it by running someone else off a piece of land AGAIN.

We always come back to the golden rule and make sure you use the same stick to judge others as you do yourself.

BTW, you cant view it as a secular problem and believe it is divinly given to the Jews. ;)

Anyways, so your opinion is it's a religious conflict. One thing I'm glad you pointed out it is religious from the Judeo-Christian point of view not what is commonly mistaken as vice versa.

....Looking forward to more replies.

I'm sick of seeing this crap on the news. I say let them do whatever they want.......let them sort this out themselves and kill each other if they want to.

Cant do that cause we give Israel over 3 billion per year while they azquire nuclear weapons Illegally and sell our top secret technology to China, the only other "superpower" in the world.

Originally posted by BigMoNYC
wow, this is a crazy ass thread. Bottom line... Israel is not a state or country, it doesnt exist. Terrorism? That is what Israeli soldiers do when they invade little towns and rape little girls along with killing the kids and women that watch in fear. THATS TERRORISM! Palestine will prevail....



People like you are the reason why there is a conflict..

Good..it's about time!! :thumbup:

Judge: Islamic Charities Liable in Death
2 hours, 10 minutes ago U.S. National - AP
By MIKE ROBINSON, Associated Press Writer
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041110/ap_on_re_us/islamic_charities_suit

CHICAGO - A federal judge Wednesday found two U.S.-based Islamic charities and an alleged fund-raiser for the Palestinian militant group Hamas liable for damages in the 1996 shooting death of an American teenager in Israel.

A jury trial is set to start Dec. 1 to determine the amount of damages in the $300 million lawsuit filed by the parents of David Boim, 17, who was gunned down while waiting for a bus in the West Bank.

In a 107-page opinion, Magistrate Judge Arlander Keys held Texas-based Holy Land Foundation and another charity, the Islamic Association for Palestine, liable for damages in the shooting for knowingly aiding Hamas.

Keys also held Mohammed Salah, a Chicago man currently under indictment in an alleged Hamas fund-raising conspiracy, liable for damages in the May 13, 1996, shooting.

"This is a huge win for victims of terrorism," said Stephen J. Landes, an attorney for Stanley and Joyce Boim, former New Yorkers now living in Jerusalem, who brought the suit on behalf of their son and his estate.

The Boims maintain that the charities funded Hamas and therefore financed the violence that led to the death of their son.

Landes said the Boim lawsuit was the first to be brought against institutions based in the United States for allegedly supporting terrorism. A previous case in Rhode Island was brought against the Hamas organization itself but not against U.S.-based institutions, he said.

The four defendants denied having anything to do with Hamas. They also argued that there was nothing to show that money they sent to charitable groups on the West Bank was used for anything related to Boim's death.

Keys ruled, however, that the Boims didn't need to show that money sent by the defendants directly paid for the shooting. He said the law required only that the groups realized they were aiding Hamas and understood it engaged in violence.

Keys based his ruling not on testimony but on months of court papers filed in the case in what lawyers call "summary judgment."

The jury that is expected to determine damages in the case also will be asked to decide whether another defendant, the Quaranic Literacy Institute, based in suburban Bridgeview, should be held liable for damages in the Boim shooting, as well.

The Boims claim that because Salah worked at the institute, which translates Islamic texts, it provided him with cover for alleged Hamas fund-raising activities.

An attorney for the institute, John Beal, said the institute was "disappointed and has maintained all along they have absolutely nothing to do with the funding of Hamas."

"They have an important function as an Islamic organization and they are disappointed that they have to continue to defend this case," Beal said.

Messages left for attorneys for the other defendants Wednesday were not immediately returned.

Originally posted by braheem
Glad you settled it; will you let everyone else know it's settled, cause most people are under the impression there's a war/conflict for the land.


Guess it depends on how you define the terms. Yes, there is a conflict if you consider all the violence....mostly from Palestinians but also some from Jews. The point I'm making is that the final outcome is settled....it HAS been for many years. The Palestinians can riot, throw rocks, fire weapons, set off bombs, strap-on explosives and dive into crowds all they want until the cows come home, and it is not going to make ONE BIT of difference.

Absolutely NONE.

Israel is there to STAY...from the Mediterranean to the West bank. Period. I mean....come on....how much simpler can I make it?:egads:
This "conflict" and "war" that you talk about is a complete waste of time, money, resources, propaganda, and most importantly, human life. If you want a good comparison.....I'll give you one. It is like trying to move Rock of Gibraltar with a BB gun.

In fact, this is MY last post on THIS subject.....I consider it a waste of time just sitting here and wearing out my keyboard repeating myself over and over about a matter settled long ago.

Have a nice evening.:D

Originally posted by mmarshall
Guess it depends on how you define the terms. Yes, there is a conflict if you consider all the violence....mostly from Palestinians but also some from Jews.

Since you wont reply to this thread cause you know too much already, I'll just comment on the first opinion of yours. The casualty and murder rate is 3 to 1 3 Palestinians die for every Israeli these are common facts all over the internet.

Thanks for the opinion tho.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by braheem
Since you wont reply to this thread cause you know too much already, I'll just comment on the first opinion of yours. The casualty and murder rate is 3 to 1 3 Palestinians die for every Israeli these are common facts all over the internet.

Thanks for the opinion tho.

Have a nice day.

:egads:

3 Palestinian terrorists to 1 innocent Israeli citizen!!

Neither side is innocent in this :egads:

Originally posted by The_Hitman
Neither side is innocent in this :egads:

I guarantee you this. If the Palestinians(and others) stopped attacking Israelis today, there would be peace in the region. Israel defends itself just as you and I have the right to if we are attacked. Or would you rather the Jews just lay down and die? Would you lay down and die if you were attacked? I don't think so.

Originally posted by SharpLS-96
:egads:

3 Palestinian terrorists to 1 innocent Israeli citizen!!

Again you choose to use YOUR OPINION instead of facts, Israel as a country was founded through terrorism starting with the bombing of the British diplomats in the 40's by people like Sharon and Menachem Begin.

Anytime you want to input some facts, I'll be here to reply.

Originally posted by JAC JZS
I guarantee you this. If the Palestinians(and others) stopped attacking Israelis today, there would be peace in the region. Not the other way around. Israel defends itself just as you and I have the right to if we are attacked. Or would you rather the Jews just lay down and die? Would you lay down and die if you were attacked? I don't think so.

If you were kicked out of a home where 12 generations of your family grew up, would you fight to defend it?

Originally posted by braheem
If you were kicked out of a home where 12 generations of your family grew up, would you fight to defend it?

I have a feeling this dicussion isn't going anywhere so we will have to agree to disagree..

Disagree?

I would protect my home I'm assuming you would not.

Originally posted by braheem
Again you choose to use YOUR OPINION instead of facts, Israel as a country was founded through terrorism starting with the bombing of the British diplomats in the 40's by people like Sharon and Menachem Begin.

Anytime you want to input some facts, I'll be here to reply.



Yeah.....yeah...yeah...the Jews are to blame for everything. :egads:
The poor Palestinian people who I might add are really Jordanians are innocent victims!!! :egads:

Islamic terrorism against them and western society must end!!

Try reading up on Walid Shoebat!!! He was a former PLO terrorist who now speaks out in defense of Israel!! http://www.shoebat.com/

The fact is the Jews have a right to the land!!! They're living there and they're not leaving so DEAL WITH IT!!!!!

Originally posted by braheem
Disagree?

I would protect my home I'm assuming you would not.

In relation to what your talking about I would be trying to protect a home that wasn't mine, so No, I would not protect it :egads:

Originally posted by JAC JZS
In relation to what your talking about I would be trying to protect a home that wasn't mine, so No, I would not protect it :egads:

So you're willing to move your family out of the U.S. if an American Indian comes to your home and tells you to leave, it is no longer yours.

Originally posted by SharpLS-96
Yeah.....yeah...yeah...the Jews are to blame for everything. :egads:
The poor Palestinian people who I might add are really Jordanians are innocent victims!!! :egads:

Islamic terrorism against them and western society must end!!

Try reading up on Walid Shoebat!!! He was a former PLO terrorist who now speaks out in defense of Israel!! http://www.shoebat.com/

The fact is the Jews have a right to the land!!! They're living there and they're not leaving so DEAL WITH IT!!!!!

Again, another opinion of ONE person. Is this how debates here are disputed? an opinion here, an artical there and nothing of your own personal experiences or research to add to the subject?

C'mon, I was hoping for something material.



:egads: they became jordanins and palestinians when the land was divided by Britan and the U.N. without the consent of the people living on the land :egads:

Originally posted by braheem
Again, another opinion of ONE person. Is this how debates here are disputed? an opinion here, an artical there and nothing of your own personal experiences or research to add to the subject?

C'mon, I was hoping for something material.



:egads: they became jordanins and palestinians when the land was divided by Britan and the U.N. without the consent of the people living on the land :egads:

You can type all you want, it doesn't change the fact that Israel occupies the land and always will! Oh and they also have the support of the U.S. ;)

Thanks for the 411.

Any opinions on the situation? other then it exists?

Originally posted by braheem
Thanks for the 411.

Any opinions on the situation? other then it exists?


It's not an "opinion" that Israel exists.....IT'S A "FACT"!!!! :D

Originally posted by SharpLS-96
It's not an "opinion" that Israel exists.....IT'S A "FACT"!!!! :D

Never doubted it bro, gald you know it too.

Sharp, do you really understand any of this, or are you here to argue?

You sarcastically call the Palestinians innocent victims, but do you actually know that they were victimized? They may not be innocent now, but at one point they were victimized and have since revolted. As Braheem has said, would you not fight for your home land?

You're advertising shoebat.com like it's your job!

Just because the Jews currently occupy the land does not make it rightfully theirs to rule as they see fit, and oppress anyone who is not like them.

While the 'creation' of Israel was far from pretty, it kind of reminds me of the creation of the U.S.

The U.S. was basically 'colonized' and taken over control from the native American Indians by 'pilgrims' who came to this country fleeing religious persecution. All kinds of wars and fights and battles ensued, and many countries participated.

From the NPR series it seems like 'Isreal' was basically 'created' by Europeans fleeing anti-semitic persecution, but later Europe and the UN backed recognition of an 'Israeli' state breaking the area into Jordan, Israel, and giving the displaced Palestinians out onto the West Bank and Gaza (correct me if I'm wrong Ibraheem).

While the 'creation' of both the modern U.S. and Israel were far from pretty, the fact is neither is going away. They're too powerful. I do personally believe though that Iran is desparate to create nuclear weapons for two reasons, one reasonable and the other unreasonable: 1) It's surrounded by nuclear India, China, Russia, Israel and Pakistan, and 2) It wants to wipe out Israel at some point.

I don't believe Israel has expansionist ideas but as has been pointed out, there's VAST resentment by Isreal's neighbors about its presence there, and one day they're going to be attacked if the attacker feels strong enough.

I do believe this is in fact ANOTHER reason why the U.S. invaded Iraq, to establish a second 'beachhead' in the region and a massive military base which will be a signal to the neighbors "don't screw with anyone" around here. Not passing judgement here, but that's what I believe is a big part of what's behind the Iraq war.

braheem said
If you were kicked out of a home where 12 generations of your family grew up, would you fight to defend it?

At that time, yes, but now? No, it's time to get over it. Britain was invaded endlessly in the middle ages until they developed the best navy in the world at the time and ended it. So that changed (or maybe brought!) my ancestors home, but it's so long ago it's time to get over it. I know the birth or Israel (officially in 1948 I believe) is much more recent, but sooner or later people have to get over it and move on.

It took the Soviet Union 70 years to realize that totalitarian Communism DOESN'T WORK (nice theory, but people are basically greedy and you can't escape that), but they did finally give up and are moving on. Painful, but good.

It took China centuries to realize that its totalitarian Communism doesn't work (although they haven't completely given up in all parts) and that maybe letting people get rich isn't such a bad idea after all. By releasing the shackles on its people China is BOOMING. IMHO China will easily be the most powerful country on the planet by mid century. Fortunately I'll be 87 and won't care much, if I make it that long.

It took Ireland decades of fighting to finally give up the idea of reuniting with Northern Ireland but they've essentially done it and are moving on, and are doing MUCH better by focusing on their own progress rather than fighting with their neighbors to the north.

The Palestinian people need to get over the fact that Israel exists, and work to build the best society they can.

And the Islamic extremist terrorists need to get over the fact that the U.S. influence in the world is as powerful as it is. The U.S. does not want to bring hatred with its presence around the world, it wants to *end* hatred. Hard to see when bombs are raining down on your home land I'm sure, but it's nevertheless true. Fanatics can't be negotiated with though, so there's only incarceration or termination or neutering of their power until they come around.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is the saddest thing on earth. It seems to me that there is no logical solution that will end the violence. Since I do not subscribe to either religion (or any other), I cannot understand the passions behind the conflict. My assessment is that both sides have valid points and have also done terrible things to each other. I know this is kind of a Swiss (neutral) response, but the ongoing conflict is simply saddening.

Originally posted by bitkahuna
The Palestinian people need to get over the fact that Israel exists, and work to build the best society they can.

Aren't Palestinian people continually dealing with oppression and mistreatment at the hands of the Israelis?
An interesting site I found on the subject sometime ago.. http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index17.htm

An interesting solution I have heard is as follows...

The Palestinians need to lay down their weapons and simply be oppressed, and take it. They should simply lay down in the roads, and do nothing else. When Israeli soldiers come to drag them away, don't fight back. Palestinians shut down the borders rather than Israeli's. March up to crossing checkpoints and sit down. No Israelis will be able to pass to get to their homes, or transport goods or other resources into Israel. They will try, but the trucks will only be able to get through so many people.

This is sounding pretty extreme eh? Keep reading...

Just sit there and take the punishment. The entire world will be watching this happen, especially if the media is informed. People will die using the current methods, so why not try this method? Perhaps the overall body count could be less. The world will watch this massacre and be outraged.

This method has been used in the past, and has worked. No weapons are needed, no hatred, just people and a hope for peace. Nonviolent civil disobedience, Martin Luther King Jr. used it in his fight for ending segregation, Gandhi used it and brought the British Empire down in India without firing a shot. Nelson Mandella ended apartheid in South Africa. Chances are fewer people will end up dead in the end using this nonviolent method.

The next part of this is to simply strike. Don't do any work for the Israelis. All of the crap work the Palestinians do currently wont get done without them. They will need your help. Israelis will try to make them work, but they cant give in.

Years back over 1 million Israelis attended a peace rally in Tel Aviv, showing that if they began this movement, there would be a substantial Israeli backing.

This fighting isn't getting anyone anywhere. This nonviolent movement would be hard, and the Israelis wiould try as hard as they could to break the Palestinians, they will beat people, shoot people, sic dogs on people, maybe even break out the fire hoses! But there would be such world outcry at the images of these people being treated so horribly the Israeli government wont be able to continue its oppression.

Originally posted by The_Hitman
Aren't Palestinian people continually dealing with oppression and mistreatment at the hands of the Israelis?
An interesting site I found on the subject sometime ago.. http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index17.htm

Israel has strict security measures around movements between Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem, and clearly aggressively responds to any uprisings of any kind.

That web site certainly has loads of VERY GRISLY PICTURES (warning to everyone).

An issue that surfaces over and over there though is Palestinian access to Jerusalem, which obviously Israel is uncomfortable granting and which Palestinians in turn vehemently resent.

Although the Palestinians just wanting Israel to go away and let the Palestinians have their land back, it ain't gonna happen, which is why I think they should just move or make the best of the situation where they are. A lot of why people won't move though is religious significance of the land there which is what makes it an intractible problem.

That's why I lean more to Eastern philosophies and religions which have a lot to do with LETTING GO!

Another plan which could work in conjunction to the one above, or on its own is this:

The United States government needs to step up and try to help out the situation. Perhaps we should give Israel an ultimatum to stop the killing. They either stop fighting, or we cut off their funding. We are basically funding state sponsored terrorism. The worst kind of terrorism!

If they want to keep their funding coming from the US, they need to work out a plan with the Palestinians to create a nation called Palestine. There needs to be a constitution that says no aggression towards Israel, and guarentees rights to every Palestinian.

Next the US will begin funding Palestine, possibly more than they fund Israel, in an attempt to help them build roads, schools, and a generally civilized society. After that, the UN needs to vow to protect each nation from any outside aggressors.

Originally posted by The_Hitman
An interesting solution I have heard is as follows...

The Palestinians need to lay down their weapons and simply be oppressed, and take it. They should simply lay down in the roads, and do nothing else. When Israeli soldiers come to drag them away, don't fight back. Palestinians shut down the borders rather than Israeli's. March up to crossing checkpoints and sit down. No Israelis will be able to pass to get to their homes, or transport goods or other resources into Israel. They will try, but the trucks will only be able to get through so many people.

This is sounding pretty extreme eh? Keep reading...

Just sit there and take the punishment. The entire world will be watching this happen, especially if the media is informed. People will die using the current methods, so why not try this method? Perhaps the overall body count could be less. The world will watch this massacre and be outraged.

This method has been used in the past, and has worked. No weapons are needed, no hatred, just people and a hope for peace. Nonviolent civil disobedience, Martin Luther King Jr. used it in his fight for ending segregation, Gandhi used it and brought the British Empire down in India without firing a shot. Nelson Mandella ended apartheid in South Africa. Chances are fewer people will end up dead in the end using this nonviolent method.

The next part of this is to simply strike. Don't do any work for the Israelis. All of the crap work the Palestinians do currently wont get done without them. They will need your help. Israelis will try to make them work, but they cant give in.

Years back over 1 million Israelis attended a peace rally in Tel Aviv, showing that if they began this movement, there would be a substantial Israeli backing.

This fighting isn't getting anyone anywhere. This nonviolent movement would be hard, and the Israelis wiould try as hard as they could to break the Palestinians, they will beat people, shoot people, sic dogs on people, maybe even break out the fire hoses! But there would be such world outcry at the images of these people being treated so horribly the Israeli government wont be able to continue its oppression.

OK, I'm all for the non-violent protest, but then what? What will Palestinians want to happen next?

Originally posted by The_Hitman
Sharp, do you really understand any of this, or are you here to argue?

You sarcastically call the Palestinians innocent victims, but do you actually know that they were victimized? They may not be innocent now, but at one point they were victimized and have since revolted. As Braheem has said, would you not fight for your home land?

You're advertising shoebat.com like it's your job!

Just because the Jews currently occupy the land does not make it rightfully theirs to rule as they see fit, and oppress anyone who is not like them.

Sad part about it is that I do know & can fully comprehend exactly what's going on in the Middle East where as you can't but you pretend you do.

Also, try posting a website that is neutral in the situation and not Pro-Palestinian!! :egads:


The liberal media has done a number on you. :thumbdn:

Originally posted by The_Hitman
Another plan which could work in conjunction to the one above, or on its own is this:

The United States government needs to step up and try to help out the situation. Perhaps we should give Israel an ultimatum to stop the killing. They either stop fighting, or we cut off their funding. We are basically funding state sponsored terrorism. The worst kind of terrorism!

If they want to keep their funding coming from the US, they need to work out a plan with the Palestinians to create a nation called Palestine. There needs to be a constitution that says no aggression towards Israel, and guarentees rights to every Palestinian.

Next the US will begin funding Palestine, possibly more than they fund Israel, in an attempt to help them build roads, schools, and a generally civilized society. After that, the UN needs to vow to protect each nation from any outside aggressors.

You're living in a dream world! :egads:
Come back down to reality!!!


After the 1948 war, no more than 800,000 Palestinians (and probably considerably fewer) were refugees. Today, the number has swelled to 3.7 million. Does Israel have any obligation to accept all of those? Where would they live? The current Israeli population is 6 million. If every Palestinian was allo