I read DaveGS4's Sticky (I think everyone should), and I have always suspected the moderators would rather not have lively debates on the forums (I also suspect a lot of that energy is directed at me). So let's extend this debate beyond the Moderator Forum and see what everyone thinks about allowing the discussion of hot topics, contraversial issues, and current events on CL. We can discuss and weigh in on the pro's and con's of allowing such threads to exist and hopefully a clear choice will emerge.

First I would like to point out that very few of the hot topic threads start out as instigated debates. Many are just news clips, emails, and opinion threads that people share which eventually evolve into discussion from our diversity of opinions. So should threads of this nature be blocked because they could potentially turn into heated debate? Or should the free exchange of thought, the growth of knowledge, and purveyance of an ultimate truth be allowed?

Is anyone really being made to feel uncomfortable by reading, not even participating, in these threads? Is it really a poor reflection on CL to have actual intellectual discussions, threads of deeper thought, diving into more complex issues, with such a wealth of well-stated opinions on both sides? Doesn't that balance out the overflow of superficial gag threads? I personally find the Lobby to be very boring and mundane without any intellectual stimulation such as a good religion debate or a discussion of current events. And I don't know about others, but I have learned a lot just by discussing issues with others and discovering new perspectives I had not considered.

And finally, is the issue of personal attacks that great of a threat? Relative to other forums?! We have maybe one personal attack per week and it is reconciled in every instance. Emotion is an inseperable part of debate, and no matter what is said in a particular thread, any negative attitudes that I have aren't carried over to other threads, and any attack against me isn't taken personally. So what is the purpose of blocking discourse and debate on the forums? Perhaps the control of thought? The censorship of dissent and unpopular views? Who knows, maybe one of the proponents can clarify....

Good post, although I suspect that most people that reply here will be those that engage in the debates themselves, so not all opinions will be reflected :)...

Originally posted by lex400sc
I also suspect a lot of that energy is directed at me
No, I'm not making the creation of this forum into a personal attack :). I would observe that your opinions are strong and often vehemently argued, with you participating in nearly all the debate threads. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Originally posted by lex400sc
So should threads of this nature be blocked because they could potentially turn into heated debate? Or should the free exchange of thought, the growth of knowledge, and purveyance of an ultimate truth be allowed?
I agree with you here. However there are very few threads of this nature that do not turn into a heated debate and this sub-forum is an effort to contain those arguments. Let's be honest with each other - there are very few folks that are going to suddenly observe the 'ultimate truth' here on ClubLexus. Heck, most of you don't even read each other's posts when you're arguing ;).

Originally posted by lex400sc
Is anyone really being made to feel uncomfortable by reading, not even participating, in these threads? Is it really a poor reflection on CL to have actual intellectual discussions, threads of deeper thought, diving into more complex issues, with such a wealth of well-stated opinions on both sides? Doesn't that balance out the overflow of superficial gag threads? I personally find the Lobby to be very boring and mundane without any intellectual stimulation such as a good religion debate or a discussion of current events. And I don't know about others, but I have learned a lot just by discussing issues with others and discovering new perspectives I had not considered.
Again I fully agree with you, but I'll answer for 'anyone'... Yes, some people are bothered by these debate threads. And they shouldn't have to debate that fact with you or defend their position in order for it to be a valid opinion. Please just accept that fact as a new perspective for your consideration.

Speaking for the moderators, heated arguments take a lot of time and effort to moderate. Posts are often frequent with people ready to get in 'the next word' and can quickly become a problem. ClubLexus Moderators are all volunteers and certainly did not sign up to monitor a political forum full time. Keeping them in one spot makes them a little easier to monitor.

Originally posted by lex400sc
And finally, is the issue of personal attacks that great of a threat?
Forum rules are not open for debate here. No personal attacks are allowed on ClubLexus, regardless of their context. You can make any point you need to discussing either your Lexus or the Iraq War without involving the personal attributes of the person you are corresponding with. It is one of the tentants of ClubLexus that makes this a great place, IMO. Those rules will not be waived for this forum.

Originally posted by lex400sc
So what is the purpose of blocking discourse and debate on the forums? Perhaps the control of thought? The censorship of dissent and unpopular views?
Are you serious? This new forum is not a persecution of anyone's viewpoints. We're simply asking for members to follow the rules that keep ClubLexus the great place it has been for years.

Originally posted by DaveGS4
Good post, although I suspect that most people that reply here will be those that engage in the debates themselves, so not all opinions will be reflected :)...

I know that a lot of them don't participate in debates for lack of interest or whatever, but this is at least one issue they've expressed an interest in so hopefully they will let us know their concerns here.


Originally posted by DaveGS4
No, I'm not making the creation of this forum into a personal attack :). I would observe that your opinions are strong and often vehemently argued, with you participating in nearly all the debate threads. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

No Dave I wasn't referring to you. I think you're probably the only moderator I can rely on to by impartial 100% of the time, and I'm sure glad it's you that is administrating CL and not someone else. My point was simply that some moderators would rather ban the creation of contraversial threads because they don't want to hear my troublesome views. If contraversial Iraq/Israel/Clinton/Bush threads were posted and everyone on the thread agreed and high-fived eachother's witty comments, I'm sure there'd be no issue about such threads existing. It's the fact that my unpopular views are represented on these threads that agitates others. At least that's the impression that I get. I know most of the mods try very hard to stay neutral, but I also know it's next to impossible to stay completely neutral all the time :).


Originally posted by DaveGS4
I agree with you here. However there are very few threads of this nature that do not turn into a heated debate and this sub-forum is an effort to contain those arguments. Let's be honest with each other - there are very few folks that are going to suddenly observe the 'ultimate truth' here on ClubLexus. Heck, most of you don't even read each other's posts when you're arguing ;).

Well the 'ultimate truth', I was referring to is will probably never be realized by anyone participating regularly on the threads. I represent one end of the extreme and my opposition represents the other extreme. It's the lurkers and the readers-on that I'm hopeful will decide for themselves who presents the best argument. My goal isn't to be argumentive for argument's sake. If you take notice, a large majority of the contraversial threads I don't even start. I just try to represent the under-represented persepectives in each and every thread.

The subforum I think is a good idea, I only worry that one day it will be wiped from CL forever like the Iraq forums were. I lost like 900 posts from that forum. It's not the number of posts, it's the fact that every one of those posts took a long, long time for me and others to make, and now they are gone. There were many great points to reference and sites to refer, but now I can't even search for them. If one day this forum was dissolved, I hope at least the content is merged back into the Clubhouse archieves.

Originally posted by DaveGS4
Again I fully agree with you, but I'll answer for 'anyone'... Yes, some people are bothered by these debate threads. And they shouldn't have to debate that fact with you or defend their position in order for it to be a valid opinion. Please just accept that fact as a new perspective for your consideration.

Well I understand there are some people like that, but it doesn't make much sense to me how you can be so bothered, and yet not have an articulate enough reason to express why you are bothered.

Originally posted by DaveGS4
Forum rules are not open for debate here. No personal attacks are allowed on ClubLexus, regardless of their context. You can make any point you need to discussing either your Lexus or the Iraq War without involving the personal attributes of the person you are corresponding with. It is one of the tentants of ClubLexus that makes this a great place, IMO. Those rules will not be waived for this forum.

Yes I understand the rules are not negotiable, but from what I gathered, personal attacks were one of the main arguments for not allowing contraversial threads to exist. That, IMO, is a weak reason. I mean personal attacks go rampant on NYWIZARD threads, Toog4me race stories, robbsneak, and other unpopular threads. Should that be used as flak to ban threads with arguably ricer car mods, questionable racing stories, and personal pictures? I don't think so.


Originally posted by DaveGS4
Are you serious? This new forum is not a persecution of anyone's viewpoints. We're simply asking for members to follow the rules that keep ClubLexus the great place it has been for years.

I wasn't referring to the creation of this forum as a persecution. I was referring to the alternative view of banning political and contraversial threads all together as a persecution of minority views. All and all I think we are on the same page here.

What I have seen so far inside Lexus Lobby debates about complex issues were:
1. One would try to defend their opinions/believes by putting words or attacking other who posted sarcastically.
2. The other would defend point of views based on facts respectively.
3. Others would just summarize the threads.

If anyone is being uncomfortable by reading the threads, then don’t read it or participate in it. Because you know where it’s headed to. We live in a free country which allows a free speech to express yourself. So let it be as long as you don’t start calling names to other and respect other’s posts.

Hey, we have our own sandbox now. Poop all you want. :D

It's not the number of posts, it's the fact that every one of those posts took a long, long time for me :agreed:

It appears that all the debates within this forum has been very civil :thumbup:

I am starting to like this sub-forum because I know directly where to go to read/respond to controversial topics. Sometimes these threads get pushed back to the next page when there are a ton of other threads going on.

Originally posted by 93LexoGS300
It appears that all the debates within this forum has been very civil :thumbup:

I am starting to like this sub-forum because I know directly where to go to read/respond to controversial topics. Sometimes these threads get pushed back to the next page when there are a ton of other threads going on.

I agree. Thanks Dave for sticking up for us, and thanks onelasttry for putting up with us ;).

To all my fellow readers and posters, keep up the civility and maturity http://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif It sure makes posting here much more enjoyable when the emotions are left at the door, and ideas and opinions shine through :cool:

I, also, like not having to sift through all the lobby threads just to get to the good stuff :D :D