I transcribed this from CNN's Lou Dobb's Tonight "Jobless in America"....


There is something historic going on in this economy, economists are expecting a 4-5% growth in the economy in the next quarter, and yet they don't think we'll have a single new job to show for it. That would make 8 straight quarters of a growing economy with jobs lost in each of those quarters. The job cuts keep coming: Ford, Chrysler, Verizon, all looking to cut jobs.You haven't heard one story in the last 10 months, 12 months, of any company saying, "Hey, we have intentions of hiring". No company has said that. The numbers are not pretty:

Bureau of Labor Statistics:

8.9 million Americans unemployeed
Another 5.0 million "want to work"
503,000 of that figure "discouraged" workers

459,000 jobs lost in Information industry
232,000 jobs lost in computer systems design
423,000 jobs lost in wholesale trade


Behind those numbers, ruthless corporate cost cutting, rising worker productivity, and a wild card that was never a factor in previous downturns: global outsourcing.

Yoo bad I am currently employed, and should have two interviews later in the next week or two for some better jobs. I'm not really looking, but I pass out my resume quite often because you naver know what will come your way. I actually have a folder with some I keep in my car, guess that's what happens when you want to work huh? Let me revert to what I have said numerous times, if you can't find work, you aren't looking.

We are seeing things picking up on the hiring side since mid summer, every month gets better and better around here.

Companies are still hesitate to pull the trigger and hire though, they got to fat before and they would rather work some OT right now, then hire another body. One of the big issues is health care, which is going up what another 20-30% for next year? Someone with a family is costing a company $10,000-$15,000 a year just in HEALTH benefits, not including 401k matching etc. Even if your paying the guy $30,000, total cost if going up to $50,000 to keep this individual on staff.

Originally posted by jpa2400
One of the big issues is health care, which is going up what another 20-30% for next year? Someone with a family is costing a company $10,000-$15,000 a year just in HEALTH benefits, not including 401k matching etc. Even if your paying the guy $30,000, total cost if going up to $50,000 to keep this individual on staff.

On health care:

More Americans lack health insurance: Census survey shows increase in those without coverage for second straight year.
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/30/news/economy/health_insurance.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

Excerpt:

Last year's drop was attributed largely to fewer people receiving insurance from employers. The percentage of those covered by employment-based health insurance slid to 61.3 percent in 2002 from 62.6 percent in 2001, the report said.

Some of the uninsured had lost their jobs as the economy struggled through a recession, according to policy experts.

In other cases, employers dropped health coverage as premiums rose, or increased employees' portion of the cost to the point that some workers could not afford to pay.

You guys need to read Work Of Nations by Robert Reich (former Clinton Labor secretary) to understand what's going on in the U.S.

Originally posted by lex400sc
On health care:

More Americans lack health insurance: Census survey shows increase in those without coverage for second straight year.
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/30/news/economy/health_insurance.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

Excerpt:

Last year's drop was attributed largely to fewer people receiving insurance from employers. The percentage of those covered by employment-based health insurance slid to 61.3 percent in 2002 from 62.6 percent in 2001, the report said.

Some of the uninsured had lost their jobs as the economy struggled through a recession, according to policy experts.

In other cases, employers dropped health coverage as premiums rose, or increased employees' portion of the cost to the point that some workers could not afford to pay.

Rich,

Yes, I agree. It is a viscious catch-22 situation. It is like the when the dot-com bubble bursted. The best pratical example (pretty pathetic too) is like driving a car to work. You work 100 miles away, but gas prices goes up to $20/gallon. You can sustain only for so long before your expenditure on gas exceeds your annual income. But to generate income, by working, you need to drive to work. So, you come to a unique position. An easy answer is to get a job closer to home; however, is that answer as simple to generate to our economy when you have a lot more complications involved?

Now, I realize the economy is not a zero sum game; however, I definately do not think rising costs for corporations can sustain, whether it be some residual effects from the dot-com era or not, with the growth rate of the economy. One is simply outpacing another.

It is like why do people drive 20 miles away to save $20? Common, you put 40 miles (round trip) of stress on your car, your time of a minimum of 40 minutes, 1.5-2 gallons of gas to save $20? Well, corporations are no different than humans because they are run by humans. Corporations are trying to save money and lower their expenditure. I do not see this EVER changing so long as humans are running it. So, it comes down to a viscious cycle that will one day "burst". I do not know which way, but I am sure it is not pretty.

I am not arguing who to blame, what started this, why, how or when (I did point out a few of them though). I am just trying to show the logic in a very small window because eventually, something will give.

My healthcare is covered, single runs about $70/wk. I haven't been to a doctor under my coverage for who knows how many years. The last time I went I wasn't covered, the 2 other times were worker comp coverage. Glad to see my money is keeping some illegal immigrants alive.

We deal with these benefits issues often as they are part of ones compensation package. Right now it is normal for someone to be paying $25-150 a month out of pocket, up to $250 a month in some cases for benefits. These packages range from $10 Generic \ $20 Premium and $10+ Generic \ $40 Premium for RX's, and $15-$50 per office visit. I think a standard office visit these days out of pocket would run $65-75ish?

We have a hand full of customers who offer absolutely outstanding benefit packages, but for the most part they admit in the next 12-24 months they will be joining the ranks of off loading some of this cost onto the employee.

This is just one issue that we hear companies say why they are not pulling the trigger on hiring new people, as they are trying to cut costs, these costs are raising at an alarming rate.

Again, over all the job market from out sights has been picking up well since summer time, every week that goes by we are getting more and more reqs for new people, with a lot of our customer base looking to make new hires in the 1st and 2nd Q next year, often the 1st Q is very slow for us, but feedback so far looks very well.

My biggest concern is "intent". Both sides are accused of breaking that "good faith intent". You have Enron and company on one side. You have the other side trying to squeeze as much benefits for employees. If it was done in moderation, then we would not have this conversation. But the pendulam will continually keep swinging back and forth.

We all seen the fall out effects of Enron, so I do not think I need to go into that issue. However, we have not really seen a "fallout" of the other party, yet. We are seeing signs of it, but definately not to the fullest extent in my opinion. Yes, corporations are outsourcing, incorporating in Delaware or Nevada, but I think we have yet to see the full effect. I guess we are in for a wild ride and, fortunately and unfortunately, we have front row seats!

Ethan, you raise some great points.

Corporations usually operate as self-optimizing systems designed to maximize productivity and profitability for their employees and shareholders. Many do it with integrity while others are run by unethical crooks.

In corproate IT at least I can see a huge emerging problem. The systems being created and implemented to help the company self-optimize, by optimizing delivery times, automating customer service (more on that in a minute), making salespeople look as prepared as possible (CRM), process transactions rapidly, etc., etc., are making the IT infrastructure increasingly complex for all companies. This situation has many, many unintended consequences in each of those companies, many of which NO ONE can see. The interacting systems created are often so complex NO ONE understands how they all work. (As Richard Hunter says in his excellent book 'World Without Secrets' - when everything is known, no one knows everything.) This complexity requires really talented people to 'feed' and care for, and if the talent isn't there, these systems break and the more complex they are, the harder it is to recover. I expect to see many companies simply 'crash' as executives ignorant in IT but too eager for profits, dive into more and more complex systems development, often in off-shore places to save more $. Unfortunately it will be lower level employees who suffer, as they try to pick up the pieces, which in many cases will be impossible.

But one company's crash can cause others to crash also if the coupling is too great. This can have big effects on an economy.

Anyway, I think the reason jobs are going down while profits are up is that the increasingly complex systems are saving companies money and allowing them to reduce head count, plus the drive to use overseas development (on average $15-$20/hr for talented programming) is accelerating.

This will leave a lot of average IT people in the U.S. looking for work and eventually giving up and changing careers almost ALWAYS for lower pay and benefits, and it will leave the 'masses' doing service work for the most part, as manufacturing has also largely vanished here. And with demographic trends, chances are those service jobs will be serving old people in one capacity or another.

This last paragraph is also basically the conclusions of Reich in his book Work of Nations.

This post is not fully thought out or expressed since it's late... but hopefully it will be of value.

I'm kinda sleepy so I didnt read all the posts. I work for RJRT, which is the manufacturer of Winston/Camel/Salem/etc cigarettes. If anyone watches the news, my industry has been in a uproar for the last few years.

Between, federal and state imposed tax increases, negative advertisement (which WE fund, BTW), and lower priced products, our net earnings have taken a beating that would make Mike Tyson cry.

We announced a 40% sales force reduction (I am in management) 2weeks ago. Someone mentioned healthcare/benefits/etc earlier.

I heard analysis that said since a person that makes a 24k base salary (entry level job at my company), has medical, dental, company car, training, etc. they COST the company 40-50k!!

No wonder so many companies are outsourcing!

BTW-when we announced a 40% workforce reduction, our stock price increased 5 dollars by close of business!

in ky they are planning to lay off some 700 workers with Ashland oil. Some of those jobs will be in nj andsouth carolina i think as well. alot of people around the main plant will be hurting due to the lack of jobs and no education and location near "coal country".

I heard on the radio that Verizon will lay off 74,000 managers :eek1:.

Originally posted by bitkahuna
I heard on the radio that Verizon will lay off 74,000 managers :eek1:.

Jesus Christ!!!! That is terrible!!

Originally posted by bitkahuna
I heard on the radio that Verizon will lay off 74,000 managers :eek1:.

I don't know where they heard that. I just got off the phone with Larry Babbio from Verizon and he said no such thing will happen... He didn't even know what I was talking about..

I think you been a victim of Bit-Casim

Originally posted by jpa2400
I think you been a victim of Bit-Casim

See what happens when you surf CL and talk on the phone?!!

Not exactly a layoff but not exactly good news either. If the guy at Verizon knew nothing about it he would be an ideal witness for any lawsuits they get involved in as he can use the Sgt. Schultz defense. At least we know who to send them to - jpa2400, and he can find them all new jobs.


Verizon offers buyouts to 74,000
By Jeffry Bartash, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 4:32 PM ET Oct. 1, 2003

WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- Verizon Communications has offered 74,000 managers a voluntary buyout package as the phone giant aims to further reduce costs.

The company expects "several thousand" employees to accept the offer, spokeswoman Sharon Cohen-Hagar said Wednesday.

The move comes just one week after Verizon (VZ: news, chart, profile) trimmed its profit forecast for 2003, citing stiff competition and weak demand.

To boost results, the company is trying to lower expenses. Last month, Verizon agreed to a contract with unionized workers that will lead to reduced health-care and other costs.

Yet costs of the new five-year contract, along with manager buyouts, will lead to a onetime reduction in earnings. Verizon has already said it plans to take a charge in the fourth quarter.

Under the buyout, managers who accept the offer would receive two weeks of pay for every year of service, up to a maximum of 35 weeks, according to Cohen-Hagar.

Managers would also be eligible for onetime lump sums of $15,000 to $30,000.

In addition, pension benefits would be increased by 5 percent and managers would be given full medical coverage for one year after their departure. They would not have to contribute to premiums during that time.

Once the labor contract is signed, Verizon also plans to offer buyouts to union workers, the company reiterated.

On Wednesday, shares of Verizon (VZ: news, chart, profile) rose 54 cents to $32.98.

"At least we know who to send them to - jpa2400, and he can find them all new jobs."

Now wouldn't I like my firm to place 74,000 people :)

I would settle for doing their outplacement services at $200 a head :D

Originally posted by jpa2400
I think you been a victim of Bit-Casim

:D OK, I guess I had it a little wrong, they aren't planning to lay off 74,000, but they've offered a package to that many it seems. Thanks for clarifying!

I read somewhere that Verizon's goal was to downsize their workforce by as much as 10,000 or 14,000 employees.

U.S. Posts First Job Gains in 8 Months
1 hour, 16 minutes ago Add Business - Reuters to My Yahoo!



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. employers added new jobs in September for the first time in eight months, the Labor Department (news - web sites) said on Friday in a surprise twist for financial markets that had been braced for more losses.



The number of workers on U.S. payrolls outside the farm sector grew 57,000 last month, the first time since January that jobs were created and sharply contrary to Wall Street economists' forecasts for a 30,000-job loss.

The government is always hiring. You can see in any classified section.

Here is something that might suprise you.

Go to ANY of the Mobile Phone companies websites that list employment opportunities.

ALLTEL: Currently has 500 Open Job Listings in 9 States
.ALLTEL Job Search (http://recruitmax.alltel.com/recruitmax/candidates/Jobslist.cfm?szFormat=search)
Verizon: Currently has 200 Open Job Listings
Sprint Corp (Including Sprint PCS): Currently has over 22,000 open Job Listings in over 30 states
AT&T: Currently has over 675 open Job listings throughout the country
Nextel Corp: Currently has over 2000 job listings throughout the east coast and west coast
Nextel Partners: Currently has over 800 Jobs listed throughout the Mid US and Southern US


Other Companies Hiring

Sallie Mae: Has over 50,000 open positions listed on their website
Sallie Mae Jobs (765 JUST IN FLORIDA) Over 10 Pages (http://www.truecareers.com/js.php?view=1&lookid=truecareers&q=&qMatch=all&qField=All&qSort=smart&qCity=&qState=FL&qCountry=&qMiles=&qcompid=&qInd=&qstaff=&qDate=&pp=50&fromSearch.x=34&fromSearch.y=3)
Walmart: Has over 165,000 positions listed Yearly... (they happen to employ over 2 million people)

Thats not to mention all the fast food, restaurant, service, and other industries....

Now STOP defending people who can't find a job, they are Lazy and not looking hard enough
Go to their websites if you don't believe me.

Yeah, but none of these jobs pay $20/hr and have full benefits and retirement pensions after 10 years.

I figured I'd make the next argument before lex400sc could

hhmm, you said before job is a job, didn't you? Now you are complaining that they don't provide any benefits?:rolleyes:

I forgot, sarcasm doesn't work on the internet, and you can't joke iwth the libs.

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
Here is something that might suprise you.

Go to ANY of the Mobile Phone companies websites that list employment opportunities.

ALLTEL: Currently has 500 Open Job Listings in 9 States
.ALLTEL Job Search (http://recruitmax.alltel.com/recruitmax/candidates/Jobslist.cfm?szFormat=search)
Verizon: Currently has 200 Open Job Listings
Sprint Corp (Including Sprint PCS): Currently has over 22,000 open Job Listings in over 30 states
AT&T: Currently has over 675 open Job listings throughout the country
Nextel Corp: Currently has over 2000 job listings throughout the east coast and west coast
Nextel Partners: Currently has over 800 Jobs listed throughout the Mid US and Southern US


Other Companies Hiring

Sallie Mae: Has over 50,000 open positions listed on their website
Sallie Mae Jobs (765 JUST IN FLORIDA) Over 10 Pages (http://www.truecareers.com/js.php?view=1&lookid=truecareers&q=&qMatch=all&qField=All&qSort=smart&qCity=&qState=FL&qCountry=&qMiles=&qcompid=&qInd=&qstaff=&qDate=&pp=50&fromSearch.x=34&fromSearch.y=3)
Walmart: Has over 165,000 positions listed Yearly... (they happen to employ over 2 million people)

Thats not to mention all the fast food, restaurant, service, and other industries....

Now STOP defending people who can't find a job, they are Lazy and not looking hard enough
Go to their websites if you don't believe me.

I hope you're right, because then the impact would be good for all of us.
read this: http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=acjg9khmvY2k&refer=top_world_news

However I still don't think Dubya can take any credit for this !!!!!

Originally posted by SDuquette
I forgot, sarcasm doesn't work on the internet, and you can't joke iwth the libs.

Please don't be so sensitive.....
Btw, I am Dems

Heres a few jobs ALLTEL is hiring for (I used them as an example because they show the min. pay annually and per hour) I hope they pay enough for someone WITHOUT A JOB..

BTW: Most are IT and Engineering Positions... And this is just a SMALL sample from their employment website.

They all have 401k, Med and Life Insurance, Dental, Retirement plan, and several other benifits.
I play golf with their Southern Regional President if anyone wants me to put in a good word for them.

Industrial Engineer 102809
Min Pay Annually: $60,700.00
Min Pay Hourly: $29.18

Engineer III 102590
Min Pay Annually: $58,600.00
Min Pay Hourly: $28.17

Network Analyst I/II (NOC) 102247
Min Pay Annually: $42,000.00
Min Pay Hourly: $20.19

Engineer II - Projects 101267
Min Pay Annually: $48,100.00
Min Pay Hourly: $23.13

Assignment Supervisor 102268
Min Pay Annually: $40,100.00
Min Pay Hourly: $19.28

Supervisor-Network Operations 101868
Min Pay Annually: $44,500.00
Min Pay Hourly: $21.39

Counsel - Telecom Regulatory 99592
Min Pay Annually: $62,000.00
Min Pay Hourly: $29.81

Engineer III 101090
Min Pay Annually: $58,600.00
Min Pay Hourly: $28.17

LAN Support Specialist I 99292
Min Pay Annually: $41,900.00
Min Pay Hourly: $20.14

Sr. Ops System Programmer 97422
Min Pay Annually: $56,400.00
Min Pay Hourly: $27.12

System Admin - MS Ent. Svr (Ops Sys Prgmr II) 101013
Min Pay Annually: $47,800.00
Min Pay Hourly: $22.98

Supervisor - IT Procurement 101190
Min Pay Annually: $56,400.00
Min Pay Hourly: $27.12

Manager - Wholesale Expense Verification 101247
Min Pay Annually: $49,900.00
Min Pay Hourly: $23.99

Program Manager - Siebel 99929
Min Pay Annually: $94,900.00
Min Pay Hourly: $45.63

Sr. Analyst - Marketing 100130
Min Pay Annually: $44,500.00
Min Pay Hourly: $21.39

Supervisor - Cash Assurance 99570
Min Pay Annually: $44,500.00
Min Pay Hourly: $21.39

Engineer AXN Transport 96342
Min Pay Annually: $42,500.00
Min Pay Hourly: $20.43

Sales Engineer III - Data Applications 94643
Min Pay Annually: $58,600.00
Min Pay Hourly: $28.17

Network Analyst II - NOC 92582
Min Pay Annually: $39,100.00
Min Pay Hourly: $18.80

Sr. Network Analyst - NOC 89084
Min Pay Annually: $47,000.00
Min Pay Hourly: $22.60

Realise that these are not Entry level positions and that they require at least five years of work experience!

Originally posted by EmeraldLexuSC3
Realise that these are not Entry level positions and that they require at least five years of work experience!

If you need an entrly level job GO THE WEBSITE I LISTED.. They have 500 openning. These are among the most advanced I could find on their site.. They have jobs from 18,000-95,000 per year....

Just like I said, those were examples... Gosh.... This explains alot

Sales & Service Representative-Part Time 103399
Min Pay Annually: $18,000.00
Min Pay Hourly: $8.65
Plus Comission

Client Server Consultant 101608
Min Pay Annually: $73,500.00
Min Pay Hourly: $35.34

Sales Action Center Representative 103333
Min Pay Annually: $20,200.00
Min Pay Hourly: $9.71
BASE SALARY PLUS COMMISSION

Technical Support Representative 103328
Min Pay Annually: $24,200.00
Min Pay Hourly: $11.63

Order Processing Specialist 103327
Min Pay Annually: $18,800.00
Min Pay Hourly: $9.04

Key Account Representative 102887
Min Pay Annually: $24,200.00
Min Pay Hourly: $11.63
BASE SALARY PLUS COMMISSION

Network Technician II 101990
Min Pay Annually: $41,800.00
Min Pay Hourly: $20.10

Customer Service Representative 101584
Min Pay Annually: $21,400.00
Min Pay Hourly: $10.29
BASE SALARY PLUS COMMISSION

Senior Area Marketing Analyst 100067
Min Pay Annually: $41,400.00
Min Pay Hourly: $19.90

Premise Sales Representative 100171
Min Pay Annually: $21,300.00
Min Pay Hourly: $10.24
BASE SALARY PLUS COMMISSION

Brunswick Sales & Service Rep 103074
Min Pay Annually: $18,000.00
Min Pay Hourly: $8.65
BASE SALARY PLUS COMMISSION

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
AND THESE ARE JUST A FEW... WHY DON'T YOU GO LOOK AND FIND THEM INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING THAT I ONLY POSTED THE ONES THAT ARE HARDER TO GET.

I was not complaining! Why the Hostility? I was merely pointing out a fact, based on the positions you had posted and besides you had stated that most of the postions are IT and Engineering Positions.
Being in the Construction Industry, I see a lot of job applicants, especially those right out of College,
mis-led and seeking a high paying postion regardless of their experiences and/or knowledge of Construction. and yet thinking they can manage one of our many Multi-Million dollar projects, because they have a four year degree.:rolleyes:
BTW: Since I have a decent High paying job, I saw no need to venture into the web-site. ;)

Originally posted by EmeraldLexuSC3
I was not complaining! Why the Hostility? I was merely pointing out a fact, based on the positions you had posted and besides you had stated that most of the postions are IT and Engineering Positions.
Being in the Constuction Industry, I see a lot of job applicants, especially those right out of College,
mis-led and seeking a high paying postion regardless of their experiences and/or knowledge of Construction. and yet thinking they can manage one of our many Mulit-Million dollar projects, because they have a four year degree.:rolleyes:
BTW: Since I have a decent High paying job, I saw no need to venture into the web-site. ;)

I'm sorry, I thought you were someone else :D :egads:

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
I'm sorry, I thought you were someone else :D :egads:

So..... you thought EmeraldLexusSC3 was Emerald and this makes it okay for you to lash out at Emerald for saying the same thing that EmeraldLexusSC3 actually said, which you condone? Makes sense...... :egads:

Originally posted by lex400sc
So..... you thought EmeraldLexusSC3 was Emerald and this makes it okay for you to lash out at Emerald for saying the same thing that EmeraldLexusSC3 actually said, which you condone? Makes sense...... :egads:

As you so love to say "Stop putting words in my mouth"... and Yes it makes all the difference when it come to mean of whats being said.

EmeraldLexus had a different meaning behind what he said than you or Emerald would have...

What he said falls in line with what me and others have been talking about, where as what You or Emerald always put have a liberal meaning to statement such as that.

This statement bails EmeraldLexus out: "Being in the Constuction Industry, I see a lot of job applicants, especially those right out of College, mis-led and seeking a high paying postion regardless of their experiences and/or knowledge of Construction. and yet thinking they can manage one of our many Mulit-Million dollar projects, because they have a four year degree. "

So, there is a completely different statement made when one is about people trying to get jobs they "arn't qualified" for and people complaining that they will not work a job they are "over qualified" for..

I thought you would know something as simple as that.

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
As you so love to say "Stop putting words in my mouth"... and Yes it makes all the difference when it come to mean of whats being said.

When I say 'stop putting words in my mouth', it's because you are actually speaking for me. That's the difference. Reread the words you quoted, I didn't put any words in your mouth :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
EmeraldLexus had a different meaning behind what he said than you or Emerald would have...

Oh! And now you're speaking for both of us?

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
So, there is a completely different statement made when one is about people trying to get jobs they "arn't qualified" for and people complaining that they will not work a job they are "over qualified" for..

The words didn't change just because the person changed in your mind.

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
I thought you would know something as simple as that.

Can't you make a point without being condescending every time? :rolleyes:

Update on the "Job Loss Phenomenon". I have a job interview wither the 10/22 or 10/23, should be a about a 50% raise in pay, not too shabby. It's just so damn easy finding workthis would make it the 7th job I have applied for and been hired at in the last 2 years, I didn't end up accepting 3 of them, oh, and there was a little labor job I was doing at night for a couple weeks, it was piece work, but I was making $15/hr since I don't **** around

Originally posted by lex400sc
When I say 'stop putting words in my mouth', it's because you are actually speaking for me. That's the difference. Reread the words you quoted, I didn't put any words in your mouth :rolleyes:


You were speaking for me: "you thought EmeraldLexusSC3 was Emerald and this makes it okay for you to lash out at Emerald for saying the same thing that EmeraldLexusSC3 actually said".

I never mentioned who I was refering to as the "wrong person". You assumed (which you do quite a bit) that I was talking about Emerald.

Originally posted by lex400sc

Oh! And now you're speaking for both of us?


Well according to your definition of speaking for other people, I wasn't....too bad.

Originally posted by lex400sc

The words didn't change just because the person changed in your mind.

Actually they did. He followed up by explaining what he ment, which in turn, changed the meaning of his previous statements.

Originally posted by lex400sc

Can't you make a point without being condescending every time? :rolleyes:
Its not being condescending. You take things people say, hope to put a liberal spin on, then get angry when the correct meaning comes out. When your wrong your wrong. By saying what you said, you were trying to speak for EmeraldLexus in his first statement, ignoring what his follow up was. You know it and everyone who reads this knows it. (Unless they choose to follow your lead simply because its a liberal one)