Car and Driver $55K sedan comparo: 1) M45, 2) RL, 3) GS430, 4) E350, 5) A6, 6) 530i
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Car and Driver $55K sedan comparo:
1. M45 (219 points)
2. RL (215 points)
3. GS430 (208 points)
4. E350 (202 points)
5. A6 (199 points)
6. 530i (198 points
7. STS (191 points)
8. S-type (181 points)
"The M45 rocks. Game over."
http://secure.grubbs.com/cardriver.pdf
1. M45 (219 points)
2. RL (215 points)
3. GS430 (208 points)
4. E350 (202 points)
5. A6 (199 points)
6. 530i (198 points
7. STS (191 points)
8. S-type (181 points)
"The M45 rocks. Game over."
http://secure.grubbs.com/cardriver.pdf
#3
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Haha not really. We already know C/D is biased. We'll have to see what the other comparisons will say. Too early to tell at this point. I have no doubt in my mind who would be the sales king of the GS, RL and M. The M45 is definitely the performance oriented vehicle of the bunch. It did so well, it put the 5 series to shame.
Last edited by flipside909; 03-23-05 at 10:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Thanks for the review, saw this coming. Congrats to the M45. RL as 2nd=
but overall for the money, the Japanese DESTROYED the Germans. Its not even funny or close.
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
But no doubt, the E and the 5 will continue to be sales leaders, followed by the GS. I doubt that the M will sell more than the GS. Image and prestige counts for a lot in this segment.
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Originally Posted by flipside909
Haha not really. We already know C/D is biased. We'll have to see what the other comparisons will say. Too early to tell at this point. I have no doubt in my mind who would be the sales king of the GS, RL and M. The M45 is definitely the performance oriented vehicle of the bunch. It did so well, it put the 5 series to shame.
C/D is biased? please explain how so...
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
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Originally Posted by DC52E55
C/D is biased? please explain how so...
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
As for the bimmer placing 6th, it's not surprising(it's ugly too
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#9
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Originally Posted by DC52E55
C/D is biased? please explain how so...
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
i thought you guys said C/D always bimmer biased? but it ranked 6th ?
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I don't think anyone is surprised that the M45 came in first, it is the most driver oriented and C&D loves drivers cars.
I think that Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti owners/fans should all rejoice. They were the TOP 3 cars!
Personally, I would like to see everyone get along, Japan has cars to be very proud of.
A few year ago, this would be unheard of!
I think that Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti owners/fans should all rejoice. They were the TOP 3 cars!
Personally, I would like to see everyone get along, Japan has cars to be very proud of.
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A few year ago, this would be unheard of!
#11
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Funny, I was predicting this exact finish, with possible exception of the Audi and BMW. But they were only seperated by one point.
I'm glad to see the overpriced, unreliable German machines get trounced by the new Japanese luxury cars.
The M, RL, and GS each deserved their respective finishes.
I'm glad to see the overpriced, unreliable German machines get trounced by the new Japanese luxury cars.
The M, RL, and GS each deserved their respective finishes.
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Originally Posted by jrock65
That's the thing I immediately noticed. That the top 3 were Japanese, and the next 3 were German. Just a year ago, the Japanese weren't even on the radar in this segment.
But no doubt, the E and the 5 will continue to be sales leaders, followed by the GS. I doubt that the M will sell more than the GS. Image and prestige counts for a lot in this segment.
But no doubt, the E and the 5 will continue to be sales leaders, followed by the GS. I doubt that the M will sell more than the GS. Image and prestige counts for a lot in this segment.
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Originally Posted by chicagoblknazn
let's behave bois...... ![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Also, looking at the first couple paragraphs, the cars were based on price. a 55k price cap. They wanted to base the comparo on engines (looks like V-8) but b/c the Acura RL is V-6 only
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Sad but the STS is also BRAND NEW and finished 2nd to last.
The V-8 Audi 4.2 A6 finished 5th. So not sure if V-8s in the E or 5 would have helped.
The S-type has finished last in every comparison in every magazine the past few years. Pathetic.
The 5 has gone from magazine darling "always #1" to just another car. Sad, and I think the styling has more to do with it than they say.
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I agree with the 2nd paragraph, disagree with the first. The GS welcomes the M and RL to the party. The GS has been around since 1993 and did impact this segment with the 2GS starting in 1998. The GS opened the doors for the M and RL.
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Saw that coming from a mile away. Still not liking the RL exterior styling that much. Every car here is deserving of there spot. Well, mabe seeing the BMW a few spots up would have been better. Good job to all cars.
Like I said before, this is the best year to shop for a 40-60K Sports Sedan. All of them are so great.
Like I said before, this is the best year to shop for a 40-60K Sports Sedan. All of them are so great.
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#17
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Just wanted make everyone perfectly aware that this comparo has a price bracket of $55k. The "ultimate driving machine" BMW 530i got the lowest score in performance because it had to compete with those V-8 vehicles with a "wimpy" (in C/D wording) and soon-to-be-replaced 3.0L I-6, while it could have entered the comparo with the 545i if the price bracket were instead set just a notch higher at $56k, the base price of the 545i.
Now that I've got this out (whew),
to the big win of the Japanese cars. The sport sedan segment is now officially NOT an exclusive arena to the Germans any longer!
Now that I've got this out (whew),
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![Woot](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/woot.gif)
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
If this thread turns into a pissing contest, it will be closed faster than the GS 430 or M45 goes 0-60....
i had no intention to **** anyone on this fourm. i respect everyone on this board.
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#19
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nice comparo! It shows you exactly what both GS and M45 are... checking handling figures for M45 tells you what M45 Sports is, and just check the difference in noise as well - GS430 is incredibly less noisy than everything else.
GS430 scored well in performance tests as well, pretty impressive power
Pretty good and expected from CD, which rates performance first - I didnt think GS would rate this well because of CD hating VDIM or VSC-type devices that cant be turned off.
Only thing that bothers me is that you cant really get M45 Sport for less than 55k, and in that sense, Acura should have won according to numbers themselves. Infiniti sending models that you cant buy is pretty despictable ordeal... Although I dont see RL performing that well according to that test - GS430 has it beaten in everything...
GS430 scored well in performance tests as well, pretty impressive power
Pretty good and expected from CD, which rates performance first - I didnt think GS would rate this well because of CD hating VDIM or VSC-type devices that cant be turned off.
Only thing that bothers me is that you cant really get M45 Sport for less than 55k, and in that sense, Acura should have won according to numbers themselves. Infiniti sending models that you cant buy is pretty despictable ordeal... Although I dont see RL performing that well according to that test - GS430 has it beaten in everything...
#20
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"Only thing that bothers me is that you cant really get M45 Sport for less than 55k, and in that sense, Acura should have won according to numbers themselves."
I'm confused by this. The price of the M45 Sport with the Journey package (as equipped in the comparo) is $52,460. You add the Navi and it's still under $55,000. The current real world price is pretty much MSRP, and there are plenty of M45 Sports in dealer inventories in my area that have MSRPs of under $55k.
I'm confused by this. The price of the M45 Sport with the Journey package (as equipped in the comparo) is $52,460. You add the Navi and it's still under $55,000. The current real world price is pretty much MSRP, and there are plenty of M45 Sports in dealer inventories in my area that have MSRPs of under $55k.
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Cant wait to get htis issue! The RL > GS is kinda perplexing to me as well. I knew that M45 was going to be a force to reckoned with. Lately it seems that Infiniti is the new BMW in alot of these comparos (taking home the prizes!)
#22
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Originally Posted by jrock65
"Only thing that bothers me is that you cant really get M45 Sport for less than 55k, and in that sense, Acura should have won according to numbers themselves."
I'm confused by this. The price of the M45 Sport with the Journey package (as equipped in the comparo) is $52,460. You add the Navi and it's still under $55,000. The current real world price is pretty much MSRP, and there are plenty of M45 Sports in dealer inventories in my area that have MSRPs of under $55k.
I'm confused by this. The price of the M45 Sport with the Journey package (as equipped in the comparo) is $52,460. You add the Navi and it's still under $55,000. The current real world price is pretty much MSRP, and there are plenty of M45 Sports in dealer inventories in my area that have MSRPs of under $55k.
#23
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Yes, please.
I know I said it, the M will win mag comparos b/c they pick the sportiest cars. The M is clearly the sportiest. Lets hope this can translate into some sales for Infiniti.
Also, looking at the first couple paragraphs, the cars were based on price. a 55k price cap. They wanted to base the comparo on engines (looks like V-8) but b/c the Acura RL is V-6 only
, the comparo was changed to price, which they admit, hurt the Germans. Other things I noticed
Sad but the STS is also BRAND NEW and finished 2nd to last.
The V-8 Audi 4.2 A6 finished 5th. So not sure if V-8s in the E or 5 would have helped.
The S-type has finished last in every comparison in every magazine the past few years. Pathetic.
The 5 has gone from magazine darling "always #1" to just another car. Sad, and I think the styling has more to do with it than they say.
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Also, looking at the first couple paragraphs, the cars were based on price. a 55k price cap. They wanted to base the comparo on engines (looks like V-8) but b/c the Acura RL is V-6 only
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Sad but the STS is also BRAND NEW and finished 2nd to last.
The V-8 Audi 4.2 A6 finished 5th. So not sure if V-8s in the E or 5 would have helped.
The S-type has finished last in every comparison in every magazine the past few years. Pathetic.
The 5 has gone from magazine darling "always #1" to just another car. Sad, and I think the styling has more to do with it than they say.
#25
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While this is an interesting comparison, I'm really looking forward to the no price cap V8 vs. V8 comparison that will upgrade the 530i to the 545i and the E350 to the E500. While those cars will get dinged in the "bang-for-your-buck" category relative to the Japanese sedans, I'm willing to bet the overall arragement will change quite a bit.
I was actually looking at the M45 and GS430 side-by-side online today and trying to decide which I'd get if I were in the market. As always with these two brands, the Infiniti's performance and handling is more attractive, but the Lexus's interior really does it for me. And I have to admit that I really like the idea of the adjustable suspension so that when I'm just cruising, things are comfy, but when I want to play, it's just a few ticks off from my previous L-Tuned GS (or so I've read). The GS also rings in a few $K more expensive when you load them both out, but that gorgeous interior is just about worth the difference. It really is a hard call.
Maybe in a couple of years when I've worn myself out on the S4's standard tranny and firm ride, after the GS450h has been introduced and the M45 can be had on VPP (of which my wife is a member), I'll look back into these types of cars. Be interesting to see which way I go...
I was actually looking at the M45 and GS430 side-by-side online today and trying to decide which I'd get if I were in the market. As always with these two brands, the Infiniti's performance and handling is more attractive, but the Lexus's interior really does it for me. And I have to admit that I really like the idea of the adjustable suspension so that when I'm just cruising, things are comfy, but when I want to play, it's just a few ticks off from my previous L-Tuned GS (or so I've read). The GS also rings in a few $K more expensive when you load them both out, but that gorgeous interior is just about worth the difference. It really is a hard call.
Maybe in a couple of years when I've worn myself out on the S4's standard tranny and firm ride, after the GS450h has been introduced and the M45 can be had on VPP (of which my wife is a member), I'll look back into these types of cars. Be interesting to see which way I go...
#26
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From the picture a few white guys. Just kidding
I really thought the gs430 was going to come in 2nd place. I here people complaining about the bmw being a 6 cylinders or Inline 6. Is it our fault bmw is overcharging people?
I really thought the gs430 was going to come in 2nd place. I here people complaining about the bmw being a 6 cylinders or Inline 6. Is it our fault bmw is overcharging people?
#27
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Originally Posted by dseag2
Well, the RL did earn a "10" for fit/finish and the GS earned a "9", so I don't think price totally dictated the order.
![Uhh...](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/1387914497.gif)
I know your going to run cry about my comments on your Acura forum so go ahead. But IMO, I can understand the M45 winning this comparo, the RL 2nd=
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Exterior styling a 9, they must be blind. .
i heard it was a blind folded chimpanzee ranking at pitchblack midnight.
seriously, eventho RL's a great car, it did not deserve 9 for the exterior styling, but then there was 7 points gap between 2nd and 3rd place.
#29
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Originally Posted by DC52E55
i heard it was a blind folded chimpanzee ranking at pitchblack midnight.
seriously, eventho RL's a great car, it did not deserve 9 for the exterior styling, but then there was 7 points gap between 2nd and 3rd place.
seriously, eventho RL's a great car, it did not deserve 9 for the exterior styling, but then there was 7 points gap between 2nd and 3rd place.
Car and Driver might has rushed this to be the 1st mag with this great comparo. B/C it would have been nice to see what the new BMW I-6 can do.
#30
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In all honest 1SICKLEX I'll probably pick the GS430 over the RL but I think you’re in denied about the fit & finish of the new RL. Acura has step up their interior recently. Well just last week the GS came in 1st place so every dog has its day. Why is everyone busting on the RL? Why not bust on the M45, just last week the car came in 3rd place.
#31
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The A6 really looks ugly in that colour from that angle. Like an inflated Passat on steroids.
Now that I know the GS450h is RWD, I really hope Infiniti brings out an M45X. That will be my next car!
Now that I know the GS450h is RWD, I really hope Infiniti brings out an M45X. That will be my next car!
#32
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I'm sorry but Car and Driver had to protect their RL 10 best winner in this comparo.
Besides, a 1 point difference wouldn't signify protecting anything. The RL's fit and finish is clearly on par with the GS.
Also the new GS wasn't even out when the 10 best car list came out, thus it would be perfectly fine for the GS to picked over the RL in this sense.
Last edited by Guy Legend; 03-23-05 at 01:44 PM.
#34
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I never said the RL fit and finish was bad. It is quite good. Just my opinion (much like the C&D review) that there were so many lines here and there and the whole dash just looks awkward, to me. Some think its grand and futuristic.
I predicted before, the M45 will win most all mag reviews for it being the sportiest sedan on par with the BMW. Unless the mags say they are looking for something else, they will always pick the sportiest car. So IMO, the M45 is well deserving. But to pick the RL 2nd, for anyone that had driven the 2 or ANY V-6 vs V-8 car, the main reason to pick the RL is cheaper price, which it did have and won that category.
Legendary Acura quality and re-sale(their words)? THey have posted letters from people complaining about the tranny problems in the TL/CL. The previous RL has dismal resale.
I am reading this review again, they had nothing bad to say about the GS. They also explained almost nothing, compared to most other reviews we have seen.
I predicted before, the M45 will win most all mag reviews for it being the sportiest sedan on par with the BMW. Unless the mags say they are looking for something else, they will always pick the sportiest car. So IMO, the M45 is well deserving. But to pick the RL 2nd, for anyone that had driven the 2 or ANY V-6 vs V-8 car, the main reason to pick the RL is cheaper price, which it did have and won that category.
Legendary Acura quality and re-sale(their words)? THey have posted letters from people complaining about the tranny problems in the TL/CL. The previous RL has dismal resale.
I am reading this review again, they had nothing bad to say about the GS. They also explained almost nothing, compared to most other reviews we have seen.
#35
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Originally Posted by rominl
and i also agree about the japanese vs german thing, it's time for japanese cars to take over
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
http://www.automotivearticles.com/Th...at_Lexus.shtml
Krause did give Lexus a few pointers on what he thinks they’ll need to do before they can become a true premium brand by his standards. He says Lexus needs designs that “appeal worldwide” – funny, considering Chris Bangle has been bashing every BMW he touches with the ugly bat. Also needed are a consistent global brand image and a factory in Europe that produces made-to-order vehicles.
#36
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Originally Posted by rominl
wow congrats to the m, that's very nice ![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
and i also agree about the japanese vs german thing, it's time for japanese cars to take over![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
and i also agree about the japanese vs german thing, it's time for japanese cars to take over
![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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#37
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Originally Posted by AmethySC
Have you driven the new M45 yet ? I have & is only the non-sport version & it already handles very well & is blazingly quick
I like the interior of the GS430 better & it's more comfortable for me, but the M45 is a fun sedan to drive ![Thumb Up](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
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#38
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Originally Posted by flipside909
Yeah no doubt...BMW CEO Krause...where are you at now?
http://www.automotivearticles.com/Th...at_Lexus.shtml
http://www.automotivearticles.com/Th...at_Lexus.shtml
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#39
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The Lexus did very well:
9 in handling like the less nose heavy 530i
5.7 sec 0-60 second best (Faster than the A8 and STS) to anyone who ever claimed Toyota's horses are not the same
9 in handling like the less nose heavy 530i
5.7 sec 0-60 second best (Faster than the A8 and STS) to anyone who ever claimed Toyota's horses are not the same
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#40
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Originally Posted by dseag2
Well, the RL did earn a "10" for fit/finish and the GS earned a "9", so I don't think price totally dictated the order.
For example, RL's V6 engine, which was pretty weak compared to others - engine flexibility was judged at 3, while GS's V8 got 4.. Thats interesting because in every performance engine figure, GS was more than a sec faster... 50-70 - GS does it in 3.9 sec, RL did it in 5.1 sec...
Compared to M45 Sport, GS430 actually did quite well in power department - all engine power speed tests are quite interesting and GS trails M45 only by 0.2 secs in 30-50mph, 50-70mph tests.