Unsuccessful BC Cam install - NEED INPUT
07-13-08, 09:48 AM
#1
Unsuccessful BC Cam install - NEED INPUT
unsuccessful Brian crower cams and hks cam gear installation. we need your input! ok, so this took way too long and it did not go successfully at all! this is not my car it is BBAtl6's car. anywho, dan, me, rudy, nick, bing, and his son all arrived at collin's garage around 11-ish. colin and brett were already inside the garage and had the intake manifold, intake, valvecovers, and serpentine belt removed from the car. we all proceeded to struggle with the crank pully bolt removal.
this is what we all saw when we got to collin's place
the bc cam boxes and hks cam gear box
collin and brett decided to use a breaker bar with a socket pressed firmly onto the floor and use crank action by turning over the motor to undo the bolt. i had nothing to do with that! lol let me clear myself of what i think happened. my theory is that because they chose to use this method to crack the crank pulley bolt off when the bolt finally came off the pulley spun freely and the cams spun as well. the sudden stop of the crank pulley caused the cam gear on top of cylinder 6 to spin in the opposite direction, much like if the timing belt were a rubber band and when stretched instantaneously it cause it to retract in the opposite direction. cylinder 6 was theoretically fully raised but the cam shaft was 180 degrees out of sync. this would have caused the vavles to be fully up while the cam came flying down causing it to strike the valve at the wrong time bending it out of place. does this sound like that could have happened?
dan gave some insight
brett took off the lower timing belt cover
we went to sears to grab some last second supplies. the 14mm allen key for the vvti cam, pry bars for the crank pulley, and a torque wrench for everything that needed to be torqued down to spec.
got the crank pulley off
everything ready to take off
taking off the cam brackets
brett in good spirits because at this time he thought everything was going well with his car's newest project
this is what we all saw when we got to collin's place
the bc cam boxes and hks cam gear box
collin and brett decided to use a breaker bar with a socket pressed firmly onto the floor and use crank action by turning over the motor to undo the bolt. i had nothing to do with that! lol let me clear myself of what i think happened. my theory is that because they chose to use this method to crack the crank pulley bolt off when the bolt finally came off the pulley spun freely and the cams spun as well. the sudden stop of the crank pulley caused the cam gear on top of cylinder 6 to spin in the opposite direction, much like if the timing belt were a rubber band and when stretched instantaneously it cause it to retract in the opposite direction. cylinder 6 was theoretically fully raised but the cam shaft was 180 degrees out of sync. this would have caused the vavles to be fully up while the cam came flying down causing it to strike the valve at the wrong time bending it out of place. does this sound like that could have happened?
dan gave some insight
brett took off the lower timing belt cover
we went to sears to grab some last second supplies. the 14mm allen key for the vvti cam, pry bars for the crank pulley, and a torque wrench for everything that needed to be torqued down to spec.
got the crank pulley off
everything ready to take off
taking off the cam brackets
brett in good spirits because at this time he thought everything was going well with his car's newest project
07-13-08, 09:49 AM
#2
exhaust cam off
exhaust side bc cam in
i got my hands dirty too
collin and his lady friend played a little ping pong and pool during breaks we had to take. it was about 7:30pm at this point
intake cam side out
both cams and the hks cam gear in
exhaust side bc cam in
i got my hands dirty too
collin and his lady friend played a little ping pong and pool during breaks we had to take. it was about 7:30pm at this point
intake cam side out
both cams and the hks cam gear in
07-13-08, 09:49 AM
#3
valve covers went back on
timing belt covers back on
took everything off and went back to stock again and still had an issue with the cams and crank pulley being out of sync and not rotating after 180 degrees
we finally took off all of the spark plugs in curiosity and found this in cylinder 6!
yes all of the porcelain from the spark plug was now inside the spark plug hole
notice the buckets from the valves in cylinder 6
so the question is what the heck could have caused this? what can cause the crank pulley to be 180 degrees out of sync with the cams? when we fully torque down the crank pulley the cams will not spin at all even with the belt on. we are certain that it is a bent valve now due to the crazy spark plug in cylinder 6 as well as the buckets of the valves sticking straight up! needless to say, i didn't end up leaving the TUI Motorsporrts Garage until around midnight. i had to give poor old brett a ride home since his car is not dead as a door nail. plans are to have the car AAA towed to hennesy on monday to have nuum work his magic and have these cams in properly as well as fix the bent valves. most of the work is already done since the vlave covers, spark plugs, cams, and cam gears are all off. the only things left needed to take off to get to the head are the rods and studs, and the exhaust manifold.
sorry to brett that collin and i could not pull this one off successfully. good news is that we do know someone who can fix it and it will be done soon. we are just currently trying to figure out what we did wrong.
timing belt covers back on
took everything off and went back to stock again and still had an issue with the cams and crank pulley being out of sync and not rotating after 180 degrees
we finally took off all of the spark plugs in curiosity and found this in cylinder 6!
yes all of the porcelain from the spark plug was now inside the spark plug hole
notice the buckets from the valves in cylinder 6
so the question is what the heck could have caused this? what can cause the crank pulley to be 180 degrees out of sync with the cams? when we fully torque down the crank pulley the cams will not spin at all even with the belt on. we are certain that it is a bent valve now due to the crazy spark plug in cylinder 6 as well as the buckets of the valves sticking straight up! needless to say, i didn't end up leaving the TUI Motorsporrts Garage until around midnight. i had to give poor old brett a ride home since his car is not dead as a door nail. plans are to have the car AAA towed to hennesy on monday to have nuum work his magic and have these cams in properly as well as fix the bent valves. most of the work is already done since the vlave covers, spark plugs, cams, and cam gears are all off. the only things left needed to take off to get to the head are the rods and studs, and the exhaust manifold.
sorry to brett that collin and i could not pull this one off successfully. good news is that we do know someone who can fix it and it will be done soon. we are just currently trying to figure out what we did wrong.
07-13-08, 10:32 AM
#4
Damn, I finished putting in my camshafts in about 4 hrs by myself 
I don't recommend the starter trick because of what could theoretically happen, sounds like theory happend to you guys lol. Use the crank bolt holding/removal tool to remove the crank bolt...do it the right way and do it once!
As for a bent valve, that's not going to be cheap to replace. Well, parts are cheap but the labor to remove the whole head is something the shop will charge a good bit to do. Is he planning to boost the motor in the future? If so, might as well just slap in a 2mm head gasket and ARP studs while the head is off of there.
One other thing, you should of just left everything as disassembled as possible so the shop can spend less time taking stuff apart. Might save you a bit in labor.
Please also clarify what you mean by the crank not going after 180degs. Does it just feel like it's jammed or what?
I don't recommend the starter trick because of what could theoretically happen, sounds like theory happend to you guys lol. Use the crank bolt holding/removal tool to remove the crank bolt...do it the right way and do it once!
As for a bent valve, that's not going to be cheap to replace. Well, parts are cheap but the labor to remove the whole head is something the shop will charge a good bit to do. Is he planning to boost the motor in the future? If so, might as well just slap in a 2mm head gasket and ARP studs while the head is off of there.
One other thing, you should of just left everything as disassembled as possible so the shop can spend less time taking stuff apart. Might save you a bit in labor.
Please also clarify what you mean by the crank not going after 180degs. Does it just feel like it's jammed or what?
07-13-08, 10:40 AM
#5
Damn, I finished putting in my camshafts in about 4 hrs by myself
I don't recommend the starter trick because of what could theoretically happen, sounds like theory happend to you guys lol. Use the crank bolt holding/removal tool to remove the crank bolt...do it the right way and do it once!
As for a bent valve, that's not going to be cheap to replace. Well, parts are cheap but the labor to remove the whole head is something the shop will charge a good bit to do. Is he planning to boost the motor in the future? If so, might as well just slap in a 2mm head gasket and ARP studs while the head is off of there.
One other thing, you should of just left everything as disassembled as possible so the shop can spend less time taking stuff apart. Might save you a bit in labor.
Please also clarify what you mean by the crank not going after 180degs. Does it just feel like it's jammed or what?
I don't recommend the starter trick because of what could theoretically happen, sounds like theory happend to you guys lol. Use the crank bolt holding/removal tool to remove the crank bolt...do it the right way and do it once!
As for a bent valve, that's not going to be cheap to replace. Well, parts are cheap but the labor to remove the whole head is something the shop will charge a good bit to do. Is he planning to boost the motor in the future? If so, might as well just slap in a 2mm head gasket and ARP studs while the head is off of there.
One other thing, you should of just left everything as disassembled as possible so the shop can spend less time taking stuff apart. Might save you a bit in labor.
Please also clarify what you mean by the crank not going after 180degs. Does it just feel like it's jammed or what?
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07-13-08, 11:24 AM
#8
when you have rotated the crank by 180 degrees without the cams rotating with it...technically there is already piston to valve contact. FSM warned not to move the crank at all when the timing belt is off because of this. It is OK to move the camshaft around because the crank at TDC is in a position where the valves won't hit the pistons.
07-13-08, 12:04 PM
#11
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The timing belt doesn't stretch, Maybe enough to get of 1* but even that is pushing it. If it were me I would do a leak down and confirm if you have a bent valve. If you don't have a leak down gauge you could pull the header and blow air into the plug hole and see if air is coming out of the exhaust port, with the valve closed or cam out. I would get a leak down gauge though. I have done the starter method a few times and have never had a problem.
07-13-08, 01:12 PM
#12
The timing belt doesn't stretch, Maybe enough to get of 1* but even that is pushing it. If it were me I would do a leak down and confirm if you have a bent valve. If you don't have a leak down gauge you could pull the header and blow air into the plug hole and see if air is coming out of the exhaust port, with the valve closed or cam out. I would get a leak down gauge though. I have done the starter method a few times and have never had a problem.
07-13-08, 02:06 PM
#13
Just wondering, when you guys did the starter trick. Was that the first thing you did before removing stuff? I mean, you still had the timing belt on securly and you still left the timing belt tensioner in right? If the timing belt wasn't in then obviously theres the problem of banged valves, but if the tensioner was removed...there would be enough slack in the belt to jump several teeth! Also one other thing to consider is that when you guys removed the intake manifold, a bolt or something small might of dropped in the cylinder from the intake port. A foreign object in the combustion chamber can destroy an engine very quickly!
Clifton is right, a belt does not stretch or rebound/'rubber band'. It's incredibly rigid and must be like that to keep the timing spot on.
Clifton is right, a belt does not stretch or rebound/'rubber band'. It's incredibly rigid and must be like that to keep the timing spot on.
07-13-08, 03:29 PM
#14
Just wondering, when you guys did the starter trick. Was that the first thing you did before removing stuff? I mean, you still had the timing belt on securly and you still left the timing belt tensioner in right? If the timing belt wasn't in then obviously theres the problem of banged valves, but if the tensioner was removed...there would be enough slack in the belt to jump several teeth! Also one other thing to consider is that when you guys removed the intake manifold, a bolt or something small might of dropped in the cylinder from the intake port. A foreign object in the combustion chamber can destroy an engine very quickly!
Clifton is right, a belt does not stretch or rebound/'rubber band'. It's incredibly rigid and must be like that to keep the timing spot on.
Clifton is right, a belt does not stretch or rebound/'rubber band'. It's incredibly rigid and must be like that to keep the timing spot on.
