Toyota Recalling the 2010 Prius for Brake System Issues - HS250h Next?
02-04-10, 11:43 AM
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Toyota Recalling the 2010 Prius for Brake System Issues - HS250h Next?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35214248/ns/business-autos/
"In the latest in a string of recalls, Toyota announced it would recall 270,000 of the popular hybrid car Prius in the U.S. and Japan, the Nikkei News Service reported."
"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Transportation Department's safety agency, said it has received 124 reports from consumers about the Prius brakes, including four reports of crashes. The investigation will look into allegations of momentary loss of braking capability while traveling over uneven road surfaces, potholes or bumps."
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I'm somewhat surprised this recall is only affecting the 2010 Prius given that the HS250 shares a similar braking system to the 2010 Prius. I can't speak for everyone but there has been a time or two where I've driven over a pothole with my HS and I feel that same loss of pedal feel that Prius owners are reporting when the regenerative braking system cuts over to the traditional friction brakes.
The manufacturer claims that no actual loss of braking power occurs even though it *feels* like it has due pedal feedback differences (regenerative braking has a firmer feel than the traditional brake systems).
The car handles the changeover just fine so long as the road surface stays consistent. It's when you hit potholes or other road indentations while braking where the system handles the changeover a bit haphazardly that causes some panic for drivers not used to the sensation.
The recall would seem to imply that there is an actual problem with the loss of brake force as opposed to the driver just getting the feeling via brake pedal feedback that brakes have let up even though in practice that is not the case.
Thoughts?
"In the latest in a string of recalls, Toyota announced it would recall 270,000 of the popular hybrid car Prius in the U.S. and Japan, the Nikkei News Service reported."
"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Transportation Department's safety agency, said it has received 124 reports from consumers about the Prius brakes, including four reports of crashes. The investigation will look into allegations of momentary loss of braking capability while traveling over uneven road surfaces, potholes or bumps."
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I'm somewhat surprised this recall is only affecting the 2010 Prius given that the HS250 shares a similar braking system to the 2010 Prius. I can't speak for everyone but there has been a time or two where I've driven over a pothole with my HS and I feel that same loss of pedal feel that Prius owners are reporting when the regenerative braking system cuts over to the traditional friction brakes.
The manufacturer claims that no actual loss of braking power occurs even though it *feels* like it has due pedal feedback differences (regenerative braking has a firmer feel than the traditional brake systems).
The car handles the changeover just fine so long as the road surface stays consistent. It's when you hit potholes or other road indentations while braking where the system handles the changeover a bit haphazardly that causes some panic for drivers not used to the sensation.
The recall would seem to imply that there is an actual problem with the loss of brake force as opposed to the driver just getting the feeling via brake pedal feedback that brakes have let up even though in practice that is not the case.
Thoughts?
02-04-10, 03:32 PM
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I know. It's probably unrelated, but with all of Toyota's massive problems, it makes me wonder if this is related to the previously-announced delay in the delivery of my HS. Regardless of the supposed demand in Japan, the world economy is still in a recession, so that can't be the reason. Anyway, I'm still (excitedly, albeit impatiently) awaiting the delivery of my HS (now early to late March).
02-04-10, 05:55 PM
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This didn't take long...
“Toyota is currently in the process of confirming these reports and investigating the vehicle driving conditions under which the reported phenomenon occurs," the company said in a terse statement. "It would be premature to comment until the investigation has been completed."
Later Thursday, Toyota also said it was investigating possible brake problems in their Lexus HS250h hybrid which uses the same brake system as the Prius.
That might have satisfied critics, at least until Thursday morning, Tokyo time, when the automaker revised its story yet again. This time, it not only admitted there was a defect, but made the startling revelation that it had already found the source of the problem and fixed it on third-generation Prius sedans that have been rolling down its assembly lines for weeks.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35242480/ns/business-autos/
Looks like we'll be taking our cars in soon as well. :\
“Toyota is currently in the process of confirming these reports and investigating the vehicle driving conditions under which the reported phenomenon occurs," the company said in a terse statement. "It would be premature to comment until the investigation has been completed."
Later Thursday, Toyota also said it was investigating possible brake problems in their Lexus HS250h hybrid which uses the same brake system as the Prius.
That might have satisfied critics, at least until Thursday morning, Tokyo time, when the automaker revised its story yet again. This time, it not only admitted there was a defect, but made the startling revelation that it had already found the source of the problem and fixed it on third-generation Prius sedans that have been rolling down its assembly lines for weeks.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35242480/ns/business-autos/
Looks like we'll be taking our cars in soon as well. :\
02-04-10, 08:35 PM
#4
There is a potential issue with braking performance when going over a bump, but this is also a quirk of the hybrid braking system.
I'm shocked to see the shoddy journalism that has "Toyota also looking at Lexus hybrid brakes" as the headline story on CNN.com, with the byline "Toyota has added the brake systems of the latest Lexus hybrid vehicles to a growing list of problems with various models, the company said Thursday."
Inaccuracy #1. "List of problems" - yet the article states that Toyota is simply checking the system. Few to no complaints. It is NOT on a list of problems, rather it is being checked for potential issues, but only as a precaution.
Inaccuracy #2. Showing the Lexus LS 600H hybrid when it is not under investigation.
Inaccuracy #3. Saying that it is 'checking Lexus vehicles - as well as hybrid Sai' as if those are equivalent. Only the HS 250h is being checked.
This is being blown way, way out of proportion. It happens when the car goes over a bump. Earlier a CNN.com piece from Jack Cafferty claimed that there were millions of problems with Toyota cars, conflating a few scattered defect report with millions of problems.
I'm shocked to see the shoddy journalism that has "Toyota also looking at Lexus hybrid brakes" as the headline story on CNN.com, with the byline "Toyota has added the brake systems of the latest Lexus hybrid vehicles to a growing list of problems with various models, the company said Thursday."
Inaccuracy #1. "List of problems" - yet the article states that Toyota is simply checking the system. Few to no complaints. It is NOT on a list of problems, rather it is being checked for potential issues, but only as a precaution.
Inaccuracy #2. Showing the Lexus LS 600H hybrid when it is not under investigation.
Inaccuracy #3. Saying that it is 'checking Lexus vehicles - as well as hybrid Sai' as if those are equivalent. Only the HS 250h is being checked.
Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Toyota has added the brake systems of the latest Lexus hybrid vehicles to a growing list of problems with various models, the company said Friday.
The company said it was checking the brakes on the Lexus vehicles -- as well as a Japanese model called the Sai -- because they use the same system as that used on the 2010 Toyota Prius.
Toyota has announced no recall of these vehicles, however, and said it has not received any complaints about the brakes from consumers.
But the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced Thursday it is opening a formal investigation into problems with the Prius, Toyota's fourth-best selling model in the United States and the best-selling model in Japan.
The company has acknowledged a software glitch that is causing problems with its braking. It said it is looking further at the best way to repair the problem. [...]
The Prius problem is a "disconnect" in the vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system that causes less than a one-second lag before the brakes start to work, Toyota said Thursday. At 60 mph, though, a vehicle will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin to take hold.
The company also said it changed the braking system software in January for vehicles built since then. But it has yet to determine how to fix the brakes of vehicles already on the road.
The company said it was checking the brakes on the Lexus vehicles -- as well as a Japanese model called the Sai -- because they use the same system as that used on the 2010 Toyota Prius.
Toyota has announced no recall of these vehicles, however, and said it has not received any complaints about the brakes from consumers.
But the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced Thursday it is opening a formal investigation into problems with the Prius, Toyota's fourth-best selling model in the United States and the best-selling model in Japan.
The company has acknowledged a software glitch that is causing problems with its braking. It said it is looking further at the best way to repair the problem. [...]
The Prius problem is a "disconnect" in the vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system that causes less than a one-second lag before the brakes start to work, Toyota said Thursday. At 60 mph, though, a vehicle will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin to take hold.
The company also said it changed the braking system software in January for vehicles built since then. But it has yet to determine how to fix the brakes of vehicles already on the road.
02-04-10, 08:41 PM
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Gee, I thought I was just being overly sensitive to the car. I have noted this on occasion but did not give it much thought, but have also tried to avoid pot holes or other obstacles in the roadway. I haven't recently run over any railroad tracks either to see if this occurs.
I am still waiting to see if there are any further comments from other HS owners about my listing for "surging". Many have viewed the listing but nobody has listed or commented, except GK. I have seen the dealer, and they just tell me that I am sensitive to the electrical engine kicking in with the gas engine. But on the freeway, the car surges when I hit rough spots or speed along cloverleaf turn outs. I am getting use to it, but sometimes it gets a little scary. Any thoughts comments appreciated to re-assure.
I am still waiting to see if there are any further comments from other HS owners about my listing for "surging". Many have viewed the listing but nobody has listed or commented, except GK. I have seen the dealer, and they just tell me that I am sensitive to the electrical engine kicking in with the gas engine. But on the freeway, the car surges when I hit rough spots or speed along cloverleaf turn outs. I am getting use to it, but sometimes it gets a little scary. Any thoughts comments appreciated to re-assure.
Last edited by dedas1; 02-04-10 at 08:44 PM.
02-04-10, 09:49 PM
#6
^^^
I'm not sure about the surging issue, there is a legitimate point regarding the 'learning' transmission software and hybrid efficiency systems, but it is important that you feel and are actually safe with the car.
While the LA Times has been very uneven in its coverage IMO, and unfair at times, this article written by Nathan Olivarez-Giles seems ok (except for the singular hybrid):
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,3475553.story
I'm not sure about the surging issue, there is a legitimate point regarding the 'learning' transmission software and hybrid efficiency systems, but it is important that you feel and are actually safe with the car.
While the LA Times has been very uneven in its coverage IMO, and unfair at times, this article written by Nathan Olivarez-Giles seems ok (except for the singular hybrid):
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,3475553.story
The mechanical parts that make up the brake system in the Lexus model are identical to those in Toyota's 2010 Prius, but the two gas-electric hybrid cars use different software systems to control the way the brakes are used, said Brian Lyons, a Toyota spokesman.
Still, he said, the Lexus is now part of Toyota's investigation.
"If you've got an issue with the Prius, then you are going to look at the [Lexus] HS 250h too," Lyons said.
"The two cars have the same components, so we are looking at both cars despite the difference in their software tuning."
News reports in Japan early Friday said Toyota planned a recall of 270,000 Priuses sold in the U.S. and Japan.
The company denied those reports: "As of now there is no recall planned for the Prius or the Lexus hybrid," Lyons said.
Still, he said, the Lexus is now part of Toyota's investigation.
"If you've got an issue with the Prius, then you are going to look at the [Lexus] HS 250h too," Lyons said.
"The two cars have the same components, so we are looking at both cars despite the difference in their software tuning."
News reports in Japan early Friday said Toyota planned a recall of 270,000 Priuses sold in the U.S. and Japan.
The company denied those reports: "As of now there is no recall planned for the Prius or the Lexus hybrid," Lyons said.
02-05-10, 06:54 AM
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While I think there's a tendency on these forums (just like on similar forums for BMW, Audi, etc) to staunchly defend the brand even when criticism is just, it does seem like the media has taken the "What's happened to Toyota's legendary quality" narrative a bit too far. Having said that, it does seem like the leadership at Toyota fumbled the PR on this early on.
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02-05-10, 07:50 AM
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Hi dedas1,
I have also experienced the "brake" issue once. In my previous hybrid (a Honda 2009 Civic Hybrid) this was much more pronounced and "quirky". So ... I guess I had already been "trained" on dealing with this type of behavior.
It wouldn't surprise me to see this eventually covers all makes/models that use the HSD system.
I've also been debating on how for us to reach a critical mass (defined by Lexus listening and doing something) that the HSD programming needs to be updated. Maybe this "software" fix will give some improvement.
I have also experienced the "brake" issue once. In my previous hybrid (a Honda 2009 Civic Hybrid) this was much more pronounced and "quirky". So ... I guess I had already been "trained" on dealing with this type of behavior.
It wouldn't surprise me to see this eventually covers all makes/models that use the HSD system.
I've also been debating on how for us to reach a critical mass (defined by Lexus listening and doing something) that the HSD programming needs to be updated. Maybe this "software" fix will give some improvement.
02-05-10, 09:15 AM
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There is a potential issue with braking performance when going over a bump, but this is also a quirk of the hybrid braking system.
I'm shocked to see the shoddy journalism that has "Toyota also looking at Lexus hybrid brakes" as the headline story on CNN.com, with the byline "Toyota has added the brake systems of the latest Lexus hybrid vehicles to a growing list of problems with various models, the company said Thursday."
Inaccuracy #1. "List of problems" - yet the article states that Toyota is simply checking the system. Few to no complaints. It is NOT on a list of problems, rather it is being checked for potential issues, but only as a precaution.
Inaccuracy #2. Showing the Lexus LS 600H hybrid when it is not under investigation.
Inaccuracy #3. Saying that it is 'checking Lexus vehicles - as well as hybrid Sai' as if those are equivalent. Only the HS 250h is being checked.
This is being blown way, way out of proportion. It happens when the car goes over a bump. Earlier a CNN.com piece from Jack Cafferty claimed that there were millions of problems with Toyota cars, conflating a few scattered defect report with millions of problems.
I'm shocked to see the shoddy journalism that has "Toyota also looking at Lexus hybrid brakes" as the headline story on CNN.com, with the byline "Toyota has added the brake systems of the latest Lexus hybrid vehicles to a growing list of problems with various models, the company said Thursday."
Inaccuracy #1. "List of problems" - yet the article states that Toyota is simply checking the system. Few to no complaints. It is NOT on a list of problems, rather it is being checked for potential issues, but only as a precaution.
Inaccuracy #2. Showing the Lexus LS 600H hybrid when it is not under investigation.
Inaccuracy #3. Saying that it is 'checking Lexus vehicles - as well as hybrid Sai' as if those are equivalent. Only the HS 250h is being checked.
This is being blown way, way out of proportion. It happens when the car goes over a bump. Earlier a CNN.com piece from Jack Cafferty claimed that there were millions of problems with Toyota cars, conflating a few scattered defect report with millions of problems.
02-05-10, 09:19 AM
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We purchased an HS250h in Nov. So far so good, BUT are watching everything closely. We previously had an ES330 (2005) a car that had transmission issues from day one and Toyota was VERY slow to achknowlege that it was a model problem (not just our car). They eventually did a software upgrade that was useless. That's why I traded to the HS. We do like everything about the car so far but worry about toyota staying ahead of the game if there are "Prius" type issues with the HS. By the way, our overall mileage so far (early in the game..1300 miles) is around 34mpg. I find it hard to believe that techniques like "pulse and gluide" which I try to do, will work very well in cities like ours (LA) with all the traffic issues.
02-05-10, 12:45 PM
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I have noticed that my HS250H while going over speed bumps at the grocery store or at the office, while I am depressing the brakes; it feels like the brakes are not being applied for a split second (even though they are). I always thought it might be the anti-lock braking system. I do believe my GS300 (2006) did a similar thing.
On another note – is it just me or is my HS missing ashtrays? Not that I smoke, I like to keep things in them like change or parking card etc.
On another note – is it just me or is my HS missing ashtrays? Not that I smoke, I like to keep things in them like change or parking card etc.
02-05-10, 05:23 PM
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In 2005 I had a Prius, did 30,000 happy miles in it. I complained on Prius Chat at the time that in downtown seattle when breaking and hitting a manhole cover you would get a feeling of break loss for a moment. It was explained as traction loss, so the regen braking stopped and the traditional ABS kicking in. This can happen on all cars that have ABS with no regen - the feeling that is, but the time between regen and traditional braking seems to exagerate the issue. This is not new. It may be worse on the 2010 but on local TV they showed a woman hitting the brakes on her 2010 Prius when going over train tracks and observed the same issue above. So when you hit your brake on something slick, the breaking is affected. Really - breaking news! Cat stuck up a tree, details at 5 pm. It just seems to be exagerated on the Prius.
So I took my HS out the other day, kept in the right lane going down on a wet day. Found a sunken manhole cover and hit the breaks. Just like the Prius, a surge feeling but no nearly has much. Interesting. Found another manhole cover that was not sunken and it did not happen. My HS is a Nov 09. Me things they have had a "tweak" for this for sometime.
At this stage, I am happy with the breaking on the HS comnpared to my 2005 Prius. BTW, the handling is night and day on the HS compared to the Prius. That extra 600 pounds seems to be a good thing.
BTW, hit 57 F here in Seattle yesterday. Ran from Everett to the Airport on I5 then came back on Highway 99 with all the stop and go. Was not in careful mode, but considerate mode. Total mileage 73, reported MPG 43.4. Just like the Prius, when you get close to 60F the MPG jumps big time.
Anyone notice the same software update to the Ford Fusion Hybrid going on. Looks like their PR has some people who may know how to do their job. They did it before the NHTS told them to.
So I took my HS out the other day, kept in the right lane going down on a wet day. Found a sunken manhole cover and hit the breaks. Just like the Prius, a surge feeling but no nearly has much. Interesting. Found another manhole cover that was not sunken and it did not happen. My HS is a Nov 09. Me things they have had a "tweak" for this for sometime.
At this stage, I am happy with the breaking on the HS comnpared to my 2005 Prius. BTW, the handling is night and day on the HS compared to the Prius. That extra 600 pounds seems to be a good thing.
BTW, hit 57 F here in Seattle yesterday. Ran from Everett to the Airport on I5 then came back on Highway 99 with all the stop and go. Was not in careful mode, but considerate mode. Total mileage 73, reported MPG 43.4. Just like the Prius, when you get close to 60F the MPG jumps big time.
Anyone notice the same software update to the Ford Fusion Hybrid going on. Looks like their PR has some people who may know how to do their job. They did it before the NHTS told them to.
02-07-10, 06:36 PM
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I'm sure with the added scrutiny that we'll likely hear of a recall or TSB sometime soon. As others have noted, it's probably something that can be addressed with a software fix.
I work in software quality assurance. Software bugs are a fact of life, and while I have no doubt that Lexus'/Toyota's firmware is some of the most solid code around... it's software. It has bugs. Fortunately they have all sorts of fail-safe code to prevent problems like this, but bugs do crop up and they need to be fixed from time to time. When you have cars like ours where almost everything is computer controlled (the gas pedal, brakes, transmission shifter - almost everything other than the parking brake), you're going to have software problems crop up.
It's purely conjecture on my part, but my feeling is that these Toyota accelerator problems will continue to surface until a software (firmware) fix is identified. There's only so many floor mats and steel plates you can add/replace until you need to start looking at the software that operates these cars. It's not bug-free.
I work in software quality assurance. Software bugs are a fact of life, and while I have no doubt that Lexus'/Toyota's firmware is some of the most solid code around... it's software. It has bugs. Fortunately they have all sorts of fail-safe code to prevent problems like this, but bugs do crop up and they need to be fixed from time to time. When you have cars like ours where almost everything is computer controlled (the gas pedal, brakes, transmission shifter - almost everything other than the parking brake), you're going to have software problems crop up.
It's purely conjecture on my part, but my feeling is that these Toyota accelerator problems will continue to surface until a software (firmware) fix is identified. There's only so many floor mats and steel plates you can add/replace until you need to start looking at the software that operates these cars. It's not bug-free.
Last edited by tonyscv; 02-08-10 at 09:35 PM.
02-08-10, 09:05 PM
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Looks like the HS250H is close to being recalled. I have 5000 miles and haven't noticed a problem so far, but then again, weather has been extremely good this winter in Seattle and I didn't get to drive in the kind of road conditions that reportedly triggered the brake problem (low driving speed on icy/uneven road).
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/bu...recall.html?hp
"Toyota also said Tuesday that it has halted shipments of its Lexus HS 250h and Sai hybrids from a Japanese factory because of a possible glitch in the cars’ brakes, a similar problem that is forcing the automaker to recall its flagship hybrid, the 2010 Prius."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/10/bu...recall.html?hp
"Toyota also said Tuesday that it has halted shipments of its Lexus HS 250h and Sai hybrids from a Japanese factory because of a possible glitch in the cars’ brakes, a similar problem that is forcing the automaker to recall its flagship hybrid, the 2010 Prius."