Difference between 3M Perfect It Rubbing Compound and 3M Swirl Remover???!
03-02-04, 09:08 PM
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Difference between 3M Perfect It Rubbing Compound and 3M Swirl Remover???!
Ok guys I did a search on this and didn't find anything relevant so please don't grind me if this topic has already been covered!!
I'm getting ready to do the Zaino process but before I do, I wanna make sure all the scratches and swirls are out of my paint (Absolutely Red).
I was wondering if I should use 3M Rubbing Compound (I already have a bottle of that!) or 3M Swirl Remover on the entire car?? Whats the real difference - i've seen people using either/or. I used the 3M rubbing compound for scratches on my old car (Honda Accord) and it worked great - is it similar to Meguiars Scratch X?
Also, do I clay before or after the 3M application?
Thanks in advance!
I'm getting ready to do the Zaino process but before I do, I wanna make sure all the scratches and swirls are out of my paint (Absolutely Red).
I was wondering if I should use 3M Rubbing Compound (I already have a bottle of that!) or 3M Swirl Remover on the entire car?? Whats the real difference - i've seen people using either/or. I used the 3M rubbing compound for scratches on my old car (Honda Accord) and it worked great - is it similar to Meguiars Scratch X?
Also, do I clay before or after the 3M application?
Thanks in advance!
03-02-04, 09:34 PM
#2
Apples and oranges, they are not interchangeable at all. Anything labled as a "rubbing compound" will have abrasive particles that are large in relative size and engineered to 'cut' paint, i.e. remove it fairly quickly. On dark colors, using a rubbing compound will usually result in hazy paint, due to it's aggressiveness. You must use a finer polish (such as a swirl remover or slightly grittier) to clear up the haze caused by the rubbing compound. Rubbing compounds are made to quickly remove ( among other things) larger scratches, heavy oxidization, water spot etchings, and remove wet sanding (1500-2000) marks. They are a last resort next to wet sanding in solving paint problems.
Conversly, a "swirl remover" is of fine grit particles, for less aggressive paint removal, and kinder to the paint in that it won't 'de-gloss' the paint. It will be "self-polishing" in that the abrasives solve minor problems and yet still clarify the paint. You use it to remove swirls, which is micro-marring of the finish, and using anything as harsh as a rubbing compound would generally make things worse. You use fine abrasives to remove minor issues like swirls, slight oxidation, scuffs etc.They are among the finest polishes available, with only a glaze being finer.
You should use the swirl remover prior to starting the use of Zaino. You may have to work it REAL well on each panel before you start seeing a difference in your swirls. Machines can do it faster, by hand it takes a lot of effort and time, so be patient.
Analogy; Think of the difference this way...
Swirl remover; Like sweepng dirt away with a broom.
Rubbing compound; Like removing dirt with a shovel.
Hope this helps.
Conversly, a "swirl remover" is of fine grit particles, for less aggressive paint removal, and kinder to the paint in that it won't 'de-gloss' the paint. It will be "self-polishing" in that the abrasives solve minor problems and yet still clarify the paint. You use it to remove swirls, which is micro-marring of the finish, and using anything as harsh as a rubbing compound would generally make things worse. You use fine abrasives to remove minor issues like swirls, slight oxidation, scuffs etc.They are among the finest polishes available, with only a glaze being finer.
You should use the swirl remover prior to starting the use of Zaino. You may have to work it REAL well on each panel before you start seeing a difference in your swirls. Machines can do it faster, by hand it takes a lot of effort and time, so be patient.
Analogy; Think of the difference this way...
Swirl remover; Like sweepng dirt away with a broom.
Rubbing compound; Like removing dirt with a shovel.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Guitarman; 03-02-04 at 09:37 PM.
03-02-04, 09:37 PM
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Sweet thanks! So if i have large scratches use the rubbing compound....other wise swirl remover. Not the million dollar question...
I use the Swirl Remover and then Clay right?
Also is Meguiars Scratch X better than 3M rubbing compound? Thanks.
I use the Swirl Remover and then Clay right?
Also is Meguiars Scratch X better than 3M rubbing compound? Thanks.
03-02-04, 09:44 PM
#4
I use the Swirl Remover and then Clay right?
Also is Meguiars Scratch X better than 3M rubbing compound? Thanks.
Best of luck.
Last edited by Guitarman; 03-02-04 at 09:44 PM.
03-10-04, 10:06 PM
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Hey what's up guitarman. I have a question I have a sort of greyish car and i see that some areas are turning green slightly if you look at it very very carefully in the sun. Also the paint doesn't "bling" as much as I would like. From what you have posted i'm gathering i shouldn't use rubbing compound? I should just clay and use 3m scratch remover then to glaze then wax? Will that be enough to remove the green? (i'm thinking that's oxidation?) I am thinking about buying the rotary now but is it really that easy to burn your paint? I see all these warnings but how hard is it really to burn the paint? Can you give a example like how long you would leave the buffer spinning in the same spot? Thanks for the help again.
Anthony
Anthony
03-11-04, 08:09 AM
#6
Anthony, It would be hard for me to say just what the problem is with your paint, because the "turning green" doesn't ring a bell in my head. I can't picture that actually. I would have to see it to tell you whether or not you need rubbing compound, but generally...you want to avoid harsh grits and attack the problem with finer polishes first and see if that helps. Try something like Meguiar's Scratch X on a small area and if you see improvement, go at it with that, followed by something like Meguiar's #9 swirl remover or the 3M swirl remover. It will take some time & effort by hand, no doubt.
I would recommend a rotary buffer to anyone that is serious about learning to use it right to solve paint issues. There are just some things an orbital can never do that a rotary can. A professional would be in trouble without one. They get a bad name sometimes, but it's no different than a high powered pressure washer (used incorrectly can do much damage) or a doctor's laser. Just think what that could do in the wrong hands!
It's possible to burn through paint, yes, but really, it's not that easy as long as you abide by certain general rules;
1). Only buy a variable speed unit. Fixed speed rotaries give you no latitude in RPM, and you can't slow it down via the trigger for tight areas or rolling off edges.
2). Keep it moving. The general rule is about 1/2ft to1 ft per second. You just don't want to stop it and let it spin in place.
3). DON'T APPLY HEAVY PRESSURE on it. The weight of the machine on the paint is almost always enough to do the trick. Slow down when the compound/polish starts to dry.
4). Keep the RPM's down. Most people don't understand that 90% of paint problems can be solved with a rotary at or below 1800 RPM's. Conversely, most people burn paint and make mistakes with high (2500-3000) RPM thinking they need to be doing that. No.
5). Tape off edges and crests, or just NEVER buff over a ridge or crest, but rather up to it. Paint is VERY thin there, and if you hit it again and again with 2500-3000 RPM you WILL burn through high points and door , trunk & hood edges.
6). Don't force the tool into tight areas where it can't be moved easily. The closer it gets to sitting in one spot is the closer you come to possible burn through.
Most of it is common sense. A bit of practice, just like with a gun, will give you confidence and keep you from shooting yourself in the foot.
That all said, I would love to see everyone that's interested LEARN to use a rotary buffer. You can practice on lawn mowers, old beater cars, painted garbage cans etc. before you go to your nice car. Most of the "burning through" a beginner will see is on edges and ridges, NOT the flat parts of the car. It's pretty damn difficult to burn flat panels through unless you sit the tool in one spot and RPM away. Almost impossible otherwise. But you also must have a grasp on compounds, polishes, and pads and what does what. It only takes some homework .
I do hear about some horror stories involving people using a rotary for the first time,( most involve edges and high RPMs) but they haven't taken the time to understand the tool and the possible pitfalls. It's a safe tool when used properly. When I started out using a rotary in my 20's (on my own cars), I burnt through door edges and hood edges etc, and once got a side gouge from the backing plate on a kickplate (inside door), but once you screw up and learn, you don't do it again. I can honestly say, outside of the first few times i've used the tool many years ago, I haven't again messed up since. Experience is always the best teacher.
We can get to detailed specifics if necessary, or further tips on using one. Just speak up.
I would recommend a rotary buffer to anyone that is serious about learning to use it right to solve paint issues. There are just some things an orbital can never do that a rotary can. A professional would be in trouble without one. They get a bad name sometimes, but it's no different than a high powered pressure washer (used incorrectly can do much damage) or a doctor's laser. Just think what that could do in the wrong hands!
It's possible to burn through paint, yes, but really, it's not that easy as long as you abide by certain general rules;
1). Only buy a variable speed unit. Fixed speed rotaries give you no latitude in RPM, and you can't slow it down via the trigger for tight areas or rolling off edges.
2). Keep it moving. The general rule is about 1/2ft to1 ft per second. You just don't want to stop it and let it spin in place.
3). DON'T APPLY HEAVY PRESSURE on it. The weight of the machine on the paint is almost always enough to do the trick. Slow down when the compound/polish starts to dry.
4). Keep the RPM's down. Most people don't understand that 90% of paint problems can be solved with a rotary at or below 1800 RPM's. Conversely, most people burn paint and make mistakes with high (2500-3000) RPM thinking they need to be doing that. No.
5). Tape off edges and crests, or just NEVER buff over a ridge or crest, but rather up to it. Paint is VERY thin there, and if you hit it again and again with 2500-3000 RPM you WILL burn through high points and door , trunk & hood edges.
6). Don't force the tool into tight areas where it can't be moved easily. The closer it gets to sitting in one spot is the closer you come to possible burn through.
Most of it is common sense. A bit of practice, just like with a gun, will give you confidence and keep you from shooting yourself in the foot.
That all said, I would love to see everyone that's interested LEARN to use a rotary buffer. You can practice on lawn mowers, old beater cars, painted garbage cans etc. before you go to your nice car. Most of the "burning through" a beginner will see is on edges and ridges, NOT the flat parts of the car. It's pretty damn difficult to burn flat panels through unless you sit the tool in one spot and RPM away. Almost impossible otherwise. But you also must have a grasp on compounds, polishes, and pads and what does what. It only takes some homework .
I do hear about some horror stories involving people using a rotary for the first time,( most involve edges and high RPMs) but they haven't taken the time to understand the tool and the possible pitfalls. It's a safe tool when used properly. When I started out using a rotary in my 20's (on my own cars), I burnt through door edges and hood edges etc, and once got a side gouge from the backing plate on a kickplate (inside door), but once you screw up and learn, you don't do it again. I can honestly say, outside of the first few times i've used the tool many years ago, I haven't again messed up since. Experience is always the best teacher.
We can get to detailed specifics if necessary, or further tips on using one. Just speak up.
Last edited by Guitarman; 03-11-04 at 08:12 AM.
03-11-04, 09:18 AM
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Thanks for the info. I'm going to go with the rotary. My father's car has scratches everywhere on his es300 (inconsiderate people love to put their bags on top of my father's car). Another question i have is um.. since your not suppose to go over edges with the rotary how do i get out scratches from there? I would think that if you tried to do it by hand it wouldn't create enough heat. Also what wax do you recommend that is really "wet"? I like 3m but my friend says that liquid klasse high glaze sealant is better. From what you have told me I thought glaze had very very fine abrasives but at their website it states that it has none.. I'm a bit confused. Thanks again
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03-11-04, 11:18 AM
#8
When you're talking about getting out scratches, the Klasse' Sealant Glaze won't work. It's basically a polymer sealant like Zaino-it's intended use is the same as wax, i.e. to protect and shine. You use that after you've done the compounding/polishing steps. So comparing Klasse S/G to 3M isn't appropriate - they do different things. make sense? In other words- you wouldn't use a wax to remove scratches. Klasse S/G may have some VERY fine abrasives (don't think so though-I'll have to check) but nothing intended to remove even light scratches.
When it comes to scratches, you have to use abrasives such as 3M or Meguiar's products, Menzerna etc. There's where you need your rotary buffer.
You would tape off 1/4 inch along the edges of the hood, doors, trunk & fenders etc. and since you're only missing 1/4 inch of the paint doing that, you really aren't going to be leaving a lot of scratches in the paint that you'd even notice, and if it bothers you, you can just use some compound and polish by hand on those areas. It's no big deal. It will take longer to remove a scratch from an edge like that, by hand, but it's better than cutting through them with the buffer.
When it comes to scratches, you have to use abrasives such as 3M or Meguiar's products, Menzerna etc. There's where you need your rotary buffer.
You would tape off 1/4 inch along the edges of the hood, doors, trunk & fenders etc. and since you're only missing 1/4 inch of the paint doing that, you really aren't going to be leaving a lot of scratches in the paint that you'd even notice, and if it bothers you, you can just use some compound and polish by hand on those areas. It's no big deal. It will take longer to remove a scratch from an edge like that, by hand, but it's better than cutting through them with the buffer.
03-24-04, 10:58 AM
#9
One additional note to all this great info... "Swirl removers" contain "fillers" to help hide the swirls. These fillers will wash out over time letting the swirl marks show again. If you're going to use a polymer like Zaino, DON'T use the swirl mark removers, rather use something like a fine grit polish to actually remove them. Once you Zaino over them, you're going to be living with them for a long time 
06-28-04, 06:10 PM
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Ok so I never got around to Zaino-ing but I'm going to now....However I have a few more questions:
1. Should I use 3M Swirl Remover AND Z-5? Or is Z-5 essentially the same thing and all I need to do for light scratches and swirls?
2. I have a pretty big and somewhat deep scratch - is it ok to use 3M Rubbing Compund on it before applying Z-5 and Z-2? Thanks.
3. I have an 02 Absolutely Red IS300 - My car has a clearcoat right?
I remember there was some debate on whether or not the Black Onyx and Absolutely Red's had the clearcoat....
Thanks!
1. Should I use 3M Swirl Remover AND Z-5? Or is Z-5 essentially the same thing and all I need to do for light scratches and swirls?
2. I have a pretty big and somewhat deep scratch - is it ok to use 3M Rubbing Compund on it before applying Z-5 and Z-2? Thanks.
3. I have an 02 Absolutely Red IS300 - My car has a clearcoat right?
I remember there was some debate on whether or not the Black Onyx and Absolutely Red's had the clearcoat....
Thanks!
06-29-04, 11:12 AM
#12
Well, swirl removers DO have abrasives in them, very fine ones. So they're not just filling agents, but a recipe to cut MINOR swirls and fill what's left. The problem is they are marketed to solve a swirl problem, and in effect they can only serve to that extent in SOME cases, not all.
You can go to a light-cut polish like 3M Finesse-It to just cut/level swirls with no fillers, if you want to. Generally, a dedicated swirl remover with fillers is for really minor swirls. The fine abrasives in them just won't cut it (pardon the pun) for anything more than that.The Klasse' product is a clean & protect product. It contains solvents that do the cleaning, not abrasives.
Swirl removers on the other hand, are abrasive with NO protection ( wax or polymer) in them.
The Klasse won't remove scratches much (abrasives do that) , but it will chemically remove dead paint (oxidation) and bring back shine, while adding a polymer to protect the paint. It's a good product, but you just have to have realistic expectations for what all these items can and can NOT do. It's all good.
You can go to a light-cut polish like 3M Finesse-It to just cut/level swirls with no fillers, if you want to. Generally, a dedicated swirl remover with fillers is for really minor swirls. The fine abrasives in them just won't cut it (pardon the pun) for anything more than that.The Klasse' product is a clean & protect product. It contains solvents that do the cleaning, not abrasives.
Swirl removers on the other hand, are abrasive with NO protection ( wax or polymer) in them.
The Klasse won't remove scratches much (abrasives do that) , but it will chemically remove dead paint (oxidation) and bring back shine, while adding a polymer to protect the paint. It's a good product, but you just have to have realistic expectations for what all these items can and can NOT do. It's all good.
Last edited by Guitarman; 06-29-04 at 11:13 AM.
06-29-04, 09:10 PM
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thanks a lot for the info guitarman. i never knew car cleaning stuff could be so complex. when i first bought my car i bought the meguiars three step products. after a few times i wasn't that impressed, so now i'm raising my budget to get better stuff (there's still a budget tho ). i'm planning to get car shampoo, clay bar, either polish or swirl remover, and wax. the thing is that if i'm already claying the car, i don't want to be excessively rough on the paint, so i'm thinking i might just be better off w/ the polish than the swirl remover. what do u think?
sorry it's sort of off topic, but i'm sure i'm not the only one w/ this dilemma right.
). i'm planning to get car shampoo, clay bar, either polish or swirl remover, and wax. the thing is that if i'm already claying the car, i don't want to be excessively rough on the paint, so i'm thinking i might just be better off w/ the polish than the swirl remover. what do u think?sorry it's sort of off topic, but i'm sure i'm not the only one w/ this dilemma right.
06-29-04, 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by no2faber
thanks a lot for the info guitarman. i never knew car cleaning stuff could be so complex. when i first bought my car i bought the meguiars three step products. after a few times i wasn't that impressed, so now i'm raising my budget to get better stuff (there's still a budget tho ). i'm planning to get car shampoo, clay bar, either polish or swirl remover, and wax. the thing is that if i'm already claying the car, i don't want to be excessively rough on the paint, so i'm thinking i might just be better off w/ the polish than the swirl remover. what do u think?
sorry it's sort of off topic, but i'm sure i'm not the only one w/ this dilemma right.
thanks a lot for the info guitarman. i never knew car cleaning stuff could be so complex. when i first bought my car i bought the meguiars three step products. after a few times i wasn't that impressed, so now i'm raising my budget to get better stuff (there's still a budget tho
). i'm planning to get car shampoo, clay bar, either polish or swirl remover, and wax. the thing is that if i'm already claying the car, i don't want to be excessively rough on the paint, so i'm thinking i might just be better off w/ the polish than the swirl remover. what do u think?sorry it's sort of off topic, but i'm sure i'm not the only one w/ this dilemma right.
Hey you guys forgot about me!! haha!!!
I'll post it again....
-----------------------------
"Ok so I never got around to Zaino-ing but I'm going to now....However I have a few more questions:
1. Should I use 3M Swirl Remover AND Z-5? Or is Z-5 essentially the same thing and all I need to do for light scratches and swirls?
2. I have a pretty big and somewhat deep scratch - is it ok to use 3M Rubbing Compund on it before applying Z-5 and Z-2? Thanks.
3. I have an 02 Absolutely Red IS300 - My car has a clearcoat right?
I remember there was some debate on whether or not the Black Onyx and Absolutely Red's had the clearcoat....
Thanks!"
-------------------------------
06-29-04, 09:49 PM
#15
Well, claying CAN cause scratches if you're not concientious or careful enough. All it takes is 1 grit of sand or dirt and more pressure than necessary, and you have scratches. To find out if you really need it on your car, run your finger across the paint. If it feels rough and has bumps and isn't glassy smooth, you need it.
The problem is, clay pulls out things that even buffing compounds, polishes and cleaners sometimes can't catch, so it's pretty much a necessity for most of us, eventually. It's really no different than washing your car; i.e. if you aren't careful and do that wrong, you cause swilrs and scratches too. Dropping the washmitt on the ground, and re-using it or wiping the bottom panels with the same mitt as the roof and not rinsing it well afterward is all it takes sometimes.
If you knead the clay often, apply LIGHT pressure, and keep the paint lubricated while you're claying, you will do fine. Toss the clay when it's getting too dirty. These things do take some practice though, to know just how to make all these discisions of "when" and "how".
It's a skill that isn't very difficult to learn, but anyone that tells you it's foolproof is nutty. Just about any task in detailing can result in damage if you aren't smart about it.
I would suggest you buy some cheap clay and practice on an old car, even a lawn tractor or something like that. Once you see what it can do for paint, you'll be glad you learned, trust me on that.
In the meantime, you'll do fine using just the polish. Cheers.
The problem is, clay pulls out things that even buffing compounds, polishes and cleaners sometimes can't catch, so it's pretty much a necessity for most of us, eventually. It's really no different than washing your car; i.e. if you aren't careful and do that wrong, you cause swilrs and scratches too. Dropping the washmitt on the ground, and re-using it or wiping the bottom panels with the same mitt as the roof and not rinsing it well afterward is all it takes sometimes.
If you knead the clay often, apply LIGHT pressure, and keep the paint lubricated while you're claying, you will do fine. Toss the clay when it's getting too dirty. These things do take some practice though, to know just how to make all these discisions of "when" and "how".
It's a skill that isn't very difficult to learn, but anyone that tells you it's foolproof is nutty. Just about any task in detailing can result in damage if you aren't smart about it.
I would suggest you buy some cheap clay and practice on an old car, even a lawn tractor or something like that. Once you see what it can do for paint, you'll be glad you learned, trust me on that.
In the meantime, you'll do fine using just the polish. Cheers.