Wet Sanding
07-15-04, 05:48 AM
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Wet Sanding
I went to a detailiing shop yesterday to remove my water spots... They tried to buff it out. A lot came out, but the marks are still there... He said for me to get the wet sanding done. He is charging me $500... It will take him the whole day... He says that he has done it a couple times before on a black lexus (i have an 01' Black LS430)... Do u think i should get it done, or if not what should i do.
Thanks for your feedback
Mink92890
Thanks for your feedback
Mink92890
07-15-04, 07:27 AM
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How much of the car is in need of wetsanding? If it's only the roof, or one or two panels then $500 seems a little steep in my opinion.
Do you know what product he used to buff them out? I guess it depends on the severity of the spots, and how much time they've had to "bake" into the paint, but I'd find out what he used to buff them out incase the polish he used wasn't abrasive enough.
Do you know what product he used to buff them out? I guess it depends on the severity of the spots, and how much time they've had to "bake" into the paint, but I'd find out what he used to buff them out incase the polish he used wasn't abrasive enough.
07-15-04, 07:37 AM
#3
Mink, there are some things you need to consider first;
Wetsanding removes a lot of paint, which is why it can solve certain issues. But there's a danger if anyone removes more than .3 of 1 MIL of paint, and the auto manufacturers state that figure as the one to abide by when wetsanding or buffing. You have approximately 1.7 to 2 MILS (2 MILS = 2 thousandths of an inch FWIW ) of paint on your car from the factory. When you sand away more than .3 of it, you remove a great deal of the UV blockers that reside in the upper part (near the surface) of the paint, which leads to early failure of it, depending on just how much sunlight it sees.
So...will wetsanding fix your problem? Yes, probably.
Will it cause you an even bigger problem down the road? (repaint) well...*maybe*. No one can be certain because there are too many variables, ie. how much paint they sanded off, sun load, type of wax you use and how often etc. But the risk IS there, no doubt whatsoever.
Should you have him do it? That's a tough one because I'm betting he doesn't have a paint thickness gauge to read the MIL thickness, and proceed accordingly. In other words-he's just gonna sand away till the etched water marks are gone, and he's not gonna really care how much he sands away as long as he doesn't cut through .3 MIL, or .5 MIL etc. If you need a repaint in a year and a half, he's betting you won't blame him and come knocking back at his door.
Is $500 too much? It's steep, no doubt, but it IS a LOT of work. All day for sure. I would guess $350 would be a more reasonable estimate, because that's what I would charge ( I have been asked to do whole cars but declined for the reasons I described ). I do spot repair wetsanding a lot, but not complete oem wetsanding.
I'm a bit surprised also that they couldn't get them out via buffing, because they should have tried a heavy cut rubbing compound, which is similar in grit to 2000 grit wetsandpaper, and also removes a lot of paint fast with a rotary buffer. This worries me because IF they used a heavy-cut, and STILL did not remove all the marks, that means the etching is DEEP, and wetsanding will force them to remove a lot ( more) of paint. This doesn't bode well IMO.
The bottom line is; How bad do the spots bug you? Is it worth compromising the life of your paint? A quality paintjob is going for $3500 to $6000 these days, can you deal with that sooner than later?
Those are the questions you need to ask yourself, because while there is a cure, there is also a downside to the cure.
When I paint cars, I put a LOT more clearcoat on them, in order to wetsand a LOT off, to get out orange peel and dirt etc. But on oem paint, you're stuck with what the factory sprays on there, and at ~2 MILS, it's about as thick as a baby's hair (!) A baby's hair is 50 microns, and 50 microns = 2 MILS. Sobering thoughts? Yes.
I would rather you get a second opinion from a trusted shop before you settle on that deal. If you could locate a detailer or body shop that will measure the paint thickness first, before and after they sand, then you'd have some peace of mind.That's my best advice for you. Good luck.
Wetsanding removes a lot of paint, which is why it can solve certain issues. But there's a danger if anyone removes more than .3 of 1 MIL of paint, and the auto manufacturers state that figure as the one to abide by when wetsanding or buffing. You have approximately 1.7 to 2 MILS (2 MILS = 2 thousandths of an inch FWIW ) of paint on your car from the factory. When you sand away more than .3 of it, you remove a great deal of the UV blockers that reside in the upper part (near the surface) of the paint, which leads to early failure of it, depending on just how much sunlight it sees.
So...will wetsanding fix your problem? Yes, probably.
Will it cause you an even bigger problem down the road? (repaint) well...*maybe*. No one can be certain because there are too many variables, ie. how much paint they sanded off, sun load, type of wax you use and how often etc. But the risk IS there, no doubt whatsoever.
Should you have him do it? That's a tough one because I'm betting he doesn't have a paint thickness gauge to read the MIL thickness, and proceed accordingly. In other words-he's just gonna sand away till the etched water marks are gone, and he's not gonna really care how much he sands away as long as he doesn't cut through .3 MIL, or .5 MIL etc. If you need a repaint in a year and a half, he's betting you won't blame him and come knocking back at his door.
Is $500 too much? It's steep, no doubt, but it IS a LOT of work. All day for sure. I would guess $350 would be a more reasonable estimate, because that's what I would charge ( I have been asked to do whole cars but declined for the reasons I described ). I do spot repair wetsanding a lot, but not complete oem wetsanding.
I'm a bit surprised also that they couldn't get them out via buffing, because they should have tried a heavy cut rubbing compound, which is similar in grit to 2000 grit wetsandpaper, and also removes a lot of paint fast with a rotary buffer. This worries me because IF they used a heavy-cut, and STILL did not remove all the marks, that means the etching is DEEP, and wetsanding will force them to remove a lot ( more) of paint. This doesn't bode well IMO.
The bottom line is; How bad do the spots bug you? Is it worth compromising the life of your paint? A quality paintjob is going for $3500 to $6000 these days, can you deal with that sooner than later?
Those are the questions you need to ask yourself, because while there is a cure, there is also a downside to the cure.
When I paint cars, I put a LOT more clearcoat on them, in order to wetsand a LOT off, to get out orange peel and dirt etc. But on oem paint, you're stuck with what the factory sprays on there, and at ~2 MILS, it's about as thick as a baby's hair (!) A baby's hair is 50 microns, and 50 microns = 2 MILS. Sobering thoughts? Yes.
I would rather you get a second opinion from a trusted shop before you settle on that deal. If you could locate a detailer or body shop that will measure the paint thickness first, before and after they sand, then you'd have some peace of mind.That's my best advice for you. Good luck.
Last edited by Guitarman; 07-20-04 at 05:30 PM.
07-15-04, 07:38 AM
#4
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IMO wetsanding (2000 grit) is generally reserved for paint touch-up jobs and polishing pitted surfaces. I've never seen it done to remove hard water spots, and I don't think I'd venture into trying it out either 
I would suggest using a swirl mark remover applicant (like from 3M) that specializes in removing swirl marks and residual water spots. You can find this product at any good auto parts store like Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.
I would suggest using a swirl mark remover applicant (like from 3M) that specializes in removing swirl marks and residual water spots. You can find this product at any good auto parts store like Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.
07-15-04, 07:58 AM
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The worst part about the water spots is that we bought the car like that... When we saw the car, we looked at the body but we culdnt c them (it might have been a little wet)... The buffing removed alot of it but if u look at it in the sun u can c small marks as if they are indented. The guy that we went to **CLAIMS** that he worked at Hennessy Lexus of Gwinnett, which is the dealer we go to... He said he has done it ther before... So what I was thinking was to call my dealer and ask them if they do it or not.... If they do I thought there could be a little more faith because it is from the dealer, but it will be way more pricey. Is there any type of warranty built in for this or no such thing.... He was charging $120 for the full buff and waxing. I was thinking i might just get the whole car done like that... The thing i HATE about these water spots, is that it ruins the look of the car. I clean the car by myself and when the car is wet, the car looks so clean, because the water spots hide. But right once you get the chamois and start drying the car, you start seeing them again . And plus this is a pretty expensive car so i want it to look like an expensive car... But if this wetsanding might make the car look worse, than im starting to become skeptical...
Do you think the dealer will be able to do it, and if so do u think he knows what he is doing???
Thanks for your feedback, and keep responding
Mink92890
. And plus this is a pretty expensive car so i want it to look like an expensive car... But if this wetsanding might make the car look worse, than im starting to become skeptical...Do you think the dealer will be able to do it, and if so do u think he knows what he is doing???
Thanks for your feedback, and keep responding
Mink92890
07-15-04, 08:02 AM
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Sorry I forgot to say... The whole car pretty much needs the wetsanding... The engine hood, trunk hood, and the roof are the worst (wetsanding should be done there)... There are some on the side which he said he could buff out easily... Do u think a claybar could do anything???
Another thing, since the buffing took out some, but left a mark on the others, do u think the ones with the mark could come back to life again in a couple of marks...
Does a 2001 LS430 have a clearcoat layer, or is it single stage. If the guy does the wetsanding im probably going to put a couple layers of meguiars gold class wax
Thanks
Mink92890
Another thing, since the buffing took out some, but left a mark on the others, do u think the ones with the mark could come back to life again in a couple of marks...
Does a 2001 LS430 have a clearcoat layer, or is it single stage. If the guy does the wetsanding im probably going to put a couple layers of meguiars gold class wax
Thanks
Mink92890
Last edited by mink92890; 07-15-04 at 08:06 AM.
07-15-04, 08:35 AM
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Claybars make the paint smooth like glass, but won't do anything for scratches or paint blemishes. They'll only remove particles and contaminents embedded in the paint.
Like Guitarman said, I'd try to have someone go over the car with a rotary buffer and cutting pad using an abrasive polish/compound before wetsanding. Look around for other body shops or detailers in your area.
Like Guitarman said, I'd try to have someone go over the car with a rotary buffer and cutting pad using an abrasive polish/compound before wetsanding. Look around for other body shops or detailers in your area.
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07-15-04, 09:54 AM
#8
All good feedback from TouringGS, he's got it correct.
The 2001 LS is clearcoated, even if black. At least that's what my "clearcoat database" info is so far, according to a few with that year/model. A cleaner wax will prove it out though, either way, just rub some on a white terry towel and see if the color comes off onto the cloth.
I would say a Lexus dealership *should* know if they can or cannot be removed fully, and warranty their work if they proceed with your approval. It sometimes surprises me though what some techs and dealers DON'T know about some of these things, so I hesitate to say that with complete certainty. Heck, dealerships are the ones that PUT swirls and scratches in cars just by washing them when they're in for work.
I would mention this MIL info, and see if they understand what you're talking about. It's not stuff I dreamed up-it's actual tech data that COMES from the auto manufacturers themselves, so the people at the dealership level *should* (again) know about how much paint is on a car, and how much can SAFELY be removed. It's no different than the torque specs on your cylinder heads; it has to be done in a proper way. Once you remove the UV blockers, it's just a matter of time. In fact, look here for reinforcement;
http://www.autoint.com/tips/clear_coat.html
Stop and check out a couple dealers, and a couple body shops & detailers. Pick their brain. They need to do paint thickness measurements before they proceed. Doing it "right" won't be cheap, but neither is a repaint.
Any hack can take some sandpaper and attempt to remove it for a quick buck. But at the end of the day, it's your car and you want that paint intact 2-3, 4 years from now. Unless you're committed to a repaint if they won't come out. Then, if that's the case, I guess there's little to lose in trying. But that's a big motsa ball ($$$) for most of us to swallow.
The 2001 LS is clearcoated, even if black. At least that's what my "clearcoat database" info is so far, according to a few with that year/model. A cleaner wax will prove it out though, either way, just rub some on a white terry towel and see if the color comes off onto the cloth.
I would say a Lexus dealership *should* know if they can or cannot be removed fully, and warranty their work if they proceed with your approval. It sometimes surprises me though what some techs and dealers DON'T know about some of these things, so I hesitate to say that with complete certainty. Heck, dealerships are the ones that PUT swirls and scratches in cars just by washing them when they're in for work.
I would mention this MIL info, and see if they understand what you're talking about. It's not stuff I dreamed up-it's actual tech data that COMES from the auto manufacturers themselves, so the people at the dealership level *should* (again) know about how much paint is on a car, and how much can SAFELY be removed. It's no different than the torque specs on your cylinder heads; it has to be done in a proper way. Once you remove the UV blockers, it's just a matter of time. In fact, look here for reinforcement;
http://www.autoint.com/tips/clear_coat.html
Stop and check out a couple dealers, and a couple body shops & detailers. Pick their brain. They need to do paint thickness measurements before they proceed. Doing it "right" won't be cheap, but neither is a repaint.
Any hack can take some sandpaper and attempt to remove it for a quick buck. But at the end of the day, it's your car and you want that paint intact 2-3, 4 years from now. Unless you're committed to a repaint if they won't come out. Then, if that's the case, I guess there's little to lose in trying. But that's a big motsa ball ($$$) for most of us to swallow.
Last edited by Guitarman; 07-15-04 at 01:03 PM.
07-15-04, 10:05 AM
#9
Mink, looking back at all of your questions, and trying to address them, I have to admit that I'm not understanding this one completely, maybe you can better clarify...
???
Another thing, since the buffing took out some, but left a mark on the others, do u think the ones with the mark could come back to life again in a couple of marks...
07-16-04, 05:37 AM
#10
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The guy did the buffing on the trunk deck only. So before when u looked at them they were whitish.. Now after the buffing there is like an outline of the water spot... I will try posting a picture of it.... (The repainting is not a cheap amount for me either )
Thanks TouringGS, and Guitarman for the great info
Mink92890
)Thanks TouringGS, and Guitarman for the great info
Mink92890
Last edited by mink92890; 07-16-04 at 05:38 AM.
07-16-04, 06:31 AM
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No problem, mink.
Is the outline white, or does the outline blend in with the paint color? I'd guess that it could be buffer burn, or perhaps clearcoat failure? Guitarman might have a better idea of what it could be.
Kind of hard to tell without seeing it though. Yeah you're right, repainting isn't exactly cheap (Worth it though).
See if you can post pics of it.
Is the outline white, or does the outline blend in with the paint color? I'd guess that it could be buffer burn, or perhaps clearcoat failure? Guitarman might have a better idea of what it could be.
Kind of hard to tell without seeing it though. Yeah you're right, repainting isn't exactly cheap (Worth it though).
See if you can post pics of it.
07-16-04, 07:59 AM
#12
K, I think I see now...
Mink, what has happened is the etched water spot was etched completely across/ inside the spot, and when it was buffed, the middle of the spot was etched only on the surface, and the abrasive buffed it out to clear paint again. The periphery (outline) of the etch went deeper, that's why you still see the outline of the spot. This is common because the minerals concentrate and settle AROUND the outer diameter of the water spot, while the concentration of minerals iINSIDE the spot are less, so they etch less and is easier to remove.
No, the whitish INSIDE should not come back after it's buffed away, because the bad paint that was whitish is now gone. Hopefully they can safely remove that peripheral etch ( outline) now too, without removing too much paint.
Mink, what has happened is the etched water spot was etched completely across/ inside the spot, and when it was buffed, the middle of the spot was etched only on the surface, and the abrasive buffed it out to clear paint again. The periphery (outline) of the etch went deeper, that's why you still see the outline of the spot. This is common because the minerals concentrate and settle AROUND the outer diameter of the water spot, while the concentration of minerals iINSIDE the spot are less, so they etch less and is easier to remove.
No, the whitish INSIDE should not come back after it's buffed away, because the bad paint that was whitish is now gone. Hopefully they can safely remove that peripheral etch ( outline) now too, without removing too much paint.
Last edited by Guitarman; 07-16-04 at 08:00 AM.
07-16-04, 09:46 AM
#13
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So if what ur saying is true guitarman, i might as well just get it buffed the way it was, as it is only visible when u look up very close to it... (Before you could see it from a distance).....
Thanks for the info again
Mink92890
Thanks for the info again
Mink92890
07-16-04, 10:06 AM
#14
IMO, I would live with it the way it is if that's the case, it sounds like they got most of the etched paint via their buffing.. Other people won't notice it even though you see it when you wipe it down.
It's just risky to keep removing paint unless the need is so great that you can't live with it the way it is.
I agree with you- At the most, I'd rather see you take it and have it buffed one more time with a medium -cut polish rather than wetsanded. That would probably lessin it even more, yet not take too big a bite out of your topcoat. Cheers.
It's just risky to keep removing paint unless the need is so great that you can't live with it the way it is.
I agree with you- At the most, I'd rather see you take it and have it buffed one more time with a medium -cut polish rather than wetsanded. That would probably lessin it even more, yet not take too big a bite out of your topcoat. Cheers.
07-16-04, 02:18 PM
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I didnt get the whole thing buffed... The guy started out on the trunk... After he finished the trunk, he decided to stop, because it wasnt taking them out COMPLETELY (outline).. (You could say like a sample)
Thanks
Mink92890
Thanks
Mink92890