Rotary Polisher Ok?
05-19-06, 09:33 PM
#1
Lexucanafer
Thread Starter
Rotary Polisher Ok?
I've got some scratches and swirl marks on my 13 year old ES300 that I'd really like to try to have removed. So, I dropped by a local detailing business to ask a few questions. I've read on this forum and others that a rotary polisher is not recommended, and that the safest polisher to use is a random orbital buffer like the PC. So, I asked at the detailers what type of polishing equipment they use. I was told they use an ordinary rotary buffer. I said that I had heard they can do more damage to a paint job than is already on the car. The guy told me that they don't use a random orbital buffer because it won't heat up the paint well enough to remove scratches, like the rotary polisher does.
So, my question is: Is he full of it? Or is there maybe some truth in what he's telling me?
And, can a rotary polisher be used without damaging a paint job if the user is experienced enough with it or should I just not even go near a place that uses one?
I am really hesitant to let them touch my car until I know more about the pros and cons of rotary polishers.
Thanks,
Lexucan
So, my question is: Is he full of it? Or is there maybe some truth in what he's telling me?
And, can a rotary polisher be used without damaging a paint job if the user is experienced enough with it or should I just not even go near a place that uses one?
I am really hesitant to let them touch my car until I know more about the pros and cons of rotary polishers.
Thanks,
Lexucan
05-19-06, 09:48 PM
#2
Rotary is more for commerical use. Potentially, it might cause damage to the paint in a hands of a amateur. But to a professional detailer whom is competent, a rotary can get the job done faster and better than a PC. Rotary will give better shine than a PC with the right technique.
Overall they both do the same job.
Overall they both do the same job.
05-19-06, 11:15 PM
#3
The DA is a fine scratch remover and finishing tool. The rotary is used to remove deep scratches and swirls, and color sanding would be the next step. A pro will know when the different techniques are needed, and trust me, you can fry your paint in about 20 seconds with a rotary. I have done it. On a practice hood of course.
I have also seen a DA discolor paint when too much pressure and heat is applied.
The bottom line is if a pro is going to work on your car, he is going check the paint thickness, age, clear coat condition, and then apply the best product and tools to get the damage out. Good luck.
I have also seen a DA discolor paint when too much pressure and heat is applied.
The bottom line is if a pro is going to work on your car, he is going check the paint thickness, age, clear coat condition, and then apply the best product and tools to get the damage out. Good luck.
05-20-06, 02:41 PM
#4
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what he said is true. Some polishes like Menzerna polishes really shine through with a rotary because it heats the product up better. I would tell amateurs to steer clear of rotarys because you can easily burn the paint and just screw up your entire paint job. Most pros use rotaries because its definitely a lot better than using a PC. but with a PC, you can't screw up.
05-20-06, 03:18 PM
#5
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So here's the deal. PC's are great machines. I use one for 80% of the work that I do and am very happy with the results I achieve. It's almost impossible to make a mistake with one, which is why they're so popular amongst weekend warriors and some pros.
That said, a rotary is definitely beneficial in many cases. Why? A much more powerful motor, no ocsillating, more rpm's, more heat, and by vritue of this, better defect removal. When I come across a particulary mistreated car I do right for my rotary. Like hguy4x mentioned, some compounds are made specifically for rotary use because a PC takes a very long time to break them down (if it can at all). If you're confident in the detailers ability I would not worry about them working on your car with a rotary.
THAT SAID, it is very, very important to use a rotary for it's intended use - defect removal. It is very rarely a finishing machine. What I mean is a rotary will remove heavy defects, but because it's so aggressive it will often leave micromarring in the form of rotary holograms. A good detailer will follow compounding steps with less aggressive steps (often with a PC) to clean up the holograms of a rotary. So if you do have your car detailed by a rotary user, make sure when he is done that not only are the scratches gone, but he hasn't left holograms. I'd also specifically ask them if a glaze was used, as glazes are sometimes used to huge holograms (which are later revealed after washing).
Good luck.
That said, a rotary is definitely beneficial in many cases. Why? A much more powerful motor, no ocsillating, more rpm's, more heat, and by vritue of this, better defect removal. When I come across a particulary mistreated car I do right for my rotary. Like hguy4x mentioned, some compounds are made specifically for rotary use because a PC takes a very long time to break them down (if it can at all). If you're confident in the detailers ability I would not worry about them working on your car with a rotary.
THAT SAID, it is very, very important to use a rotary for it's intended use - defect removal. It is very rarely a finishing machine. What I mean is a rotary will remove heavy defects, but because it's so aggressive it will often leave micromarring in the form of rotary holograms. A good detailer will follow compounding steps with less aggressive steps (often with a PC) to clean up the holograms of a rotary. So if you do have your car detailed by a rotary user, make sure when he is done that not only are the scratches gone, but he hasn't left holograms. I'd also specifically ask them if a glaze was used, as glazes are sometimes used to huge holograms (which are later revealed after washing).
Good luck.
05-21-06, 06:09 AM
#6
Lexucanafer
Thread Starter
Great responses by everybody.....thanks!
So, I don't need to necessarily fear the fact that a detailer uses a rotary machine, as long as he knows WHEN and HOW to use it.
But maybe I should be somewhat concerned that it seems the detailer in question uses ONLY a rotary polisher, and not BOTH a rotary and a random orbital machine, which is what I think Picus is suggesting is necessary to do truly professional work and to acheive the best results.
So, if they are using only a rotary buffer (and since I did ask specifically what type of polishing equipment they use and the response was - ROTARY) then I can expect that they are probably also using techniques (such as glazes) to hide the holograms left by the rotary.....unless of course they are SO SKILLED with the rotary that no micromarring or holograms are EVER produced. Probably not the case.
The key then, as I see it, is to find a detailer that uses both a rotary AND a PC-like polisher rather than one or the other exclusively. Random orbital equipment alone cannot get 100 per cent of the job done if more serious paint job defects exist, and rotary machines are recommended (if not mandatory equipment) for such jobs, but will very likely leave some damage in the way of holograms which will need to be dealt with in some manner...and hiding them under a coat of glaze is definitely NOT acceptable.
Or.....could a detailer effectively get rid of the micromarring left after using a rotary polisher by going over these areas by hand?
If this is the case, then I'm still in trouble because that means having ONLY rotary equipment doesn't necessarily label a detailer as being unworthy to work on my Lex.
So the really BIG question is: How can I tell IN ADVANCE that a certain detailer is safe to leave my car in the hands of? What are the key questions to ask ahead of time? I don't particularly want to have to just "take a chance" and then deal with the poor results afterward.
Maybe I should have something like a questionaire for a detailer to fill out (and SIGN!) before handing over my keys?
Like:
1) Do you use both rotary and random orbital polishing/buffing equipment?
2) Do you use glazes to deal with micromarring and/or other defects?
3) How do you deal with serious paint damage such as deep scratches?
4) How do you.............?
Help me out guys.
Lexucan
So, I don't need to necessarily fear the fact that a detailer uses a rotary machine, as long as he knows WHEN and HOW to use it.
But maybe I should be somewhat concerned that it seems the detailer in question uses ONLY a rotary polisher, and not BOTH a rotary and a random orbital machine, which is what I think Picus is suggesting is necessary to do truly professional work and to acheive the best results.
So, if they are using only a rotary buffer (and since I did ask specifically what type of polishing equipment they use and the response was - ROTARY) then I can expect that they are probably also using techniques (such as glazes) to hide the holograms left by the rotary.....unless of course they are SO SKILLED with the rotary that no micromarring or holograms are EVER produced. Probably not the case.
The key then, as I see it, is to find a detailer that uses both a rotary AND a PC-like polisher rather than one or the other exclusively. Random orbital equipment alone cannot get 100 per cent of the job done if more serious paint job defects exist, and rotary machines are recommended (if not mandatory equipment) for such jobs, but will very likely leave some damage in the way of holograms which will need to be dealt with in some manner...and hiding them under a coat of glaze is definitely NOT acceptable.
Or.....could a detailer effectively get rid of the micromarring left after using a rotary polisher by going over these areas by hand?
If this is the case, then I'm still in trouble because that means having ONLY rotary equipment doesn't necessarily label a detailer as being unworthy to work on my Lex.
So the really BIG question is: How can I tell IN ADVANCE that a certain detailer is safe to leave my car in the hands of? What are the key questions to ask ahead of time? I don't particularly want to have to just "take a chance" and then deal with the poor results afterward.
Maybe I should have something like a questionaire for a detailer to fill out (and SIGN!) before handing over my keys?
Like:
1) Do you use both rotary and random orbital polishing/buffing equipment?
2) Do you use glazes to deal with micromarring and/or other defects?
3) How do you deal with serious paint damage such as deep scratches?
4) How do you.............?
Help me out guys.
Lexucan
Last edited by Lexucan; 05-21-06 at 06:49 AM.
05-21-06, 12:51 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Lexucan
Great responses by everybody.....thanks!
So, I don't need to necessarily fear the fact that a detailer uses a rotary machine, as long as he knows WHEN and HOW to use it.
But maybe I should be somewhat concerned that it seems the detailer in question uses ONLY a rotary polisher, and not BOTH a rotary and a random orbital machine, which is what I think Picus is suggesting is necessary to do truly professional work and to acheive the best results.
So, if they are using only a rotary buffer (and since I did ask specifically what type of polishing equipment they use and the response was - ROTARY) then I can expect that they are probably also using techniques (such as glazes) to hide the holograms left by the rotary.....unless of course they are SO SKILLED with the rotary that no micromarring or holograms are EVER produced. Probably not the case.
The key then, as I see it, is to find a detailer that uses both a rotary AND a PC-like polisher rather than one or the other exclusively. Random orbital equipment alone cannot get 100 per cent of the job done if more serious paint job defects exist, and rotary machines are recommended (if not mandatory equipment) for such jobs, but will very likely leave some damage in the way of holograms which will need to be dealt with in some manner...and hiding them under a coat of glaze is definitely NOT acceptable.
Or.....could a detailer effectively get rid of the micromarring left after using a rotary polisher by going over these areas by hand?
If this is the case, then I'm still in trouble because that means having ONLY rotary equipment doesn't necessarily label a detailer as being unworthy to work on my Lex.
So the really BIG question is: How can I tell IN ADVANCE that a certain detailer is safe to leave my car in the hands of? What are the key questions to ask ahead of time? I don't particularly want to have to just "take a chance" and then deal with the poor results afterward.
Maybe I should have something like a questionaire for a detailer to fill out (and SIGN!) before handing over my keys?
Like:
1) Do you use both rotary and random orbital polishing/buffing equipment?
2) Do you use glazes to deal with micromarring and/or other defects?
3) How do you deal with serious paint damage such as deep scratches?
4) How do you.............?
Help me out guys.
Lexucan
So, I don't need to necessarily fear the fact that a detailer uses a rotary machine, as long as he knows WHEN and HOW to use it.
But maybe I should be somewhat concerned that it seems the detailer in question uses ONLY a rotary polisher, and not BOTH a rotary and a random orbital machine, which is what I think Picus is suggesting is necessary to do truly professional work and to acheive the best results.
So, if they are using only a rotary buffer (and since I did ask specifically what type of polishing equipment they use and the response was - ROTARY) then I can expect that they are probably also using techniques (such as glazes) to hide the holograms left by the rotary.....unless of course they are SO SKILLED with the rotary that no micromarring or holograms are EVER produced. Probably not the case.
The key then, as I see it, is to find a detailer that uses both a rotary AND a PC-like polisher rather than one or the other exclusively. Random orbital equipment alone cannot get 100 per cent of the job done if more serious paint job defects exist, and rotary machines are recommended (if not mandatory equipment) for such jobs, but will very likely leave some damage in the way of holograms which will need to be dealt with in some manner...and hiding them under a coat of glaze is definitely NOT acceptable.
Or.....could a detailer effectively get rid of the micromarring left after using a rotary polisher by going over these areas by hand?
If this is the case, then I'm still in trouble because that means having ONLY rotary equipment doesn't necessarily label a detailer as being unworthy to work on my Lex.
So the really BIG question is: How can I tell IN ADVANCE that a certain detailer is safe to leave my car in the hands of? What are the key questions to ask ahead of time? I don't particularly want to have to just "take a chance" and then deal with the poor results afterward.
Maybe I should have something like a questionaire for a detailer to fill out (and SIGN!) before handing over my keys?
Like:
1) Do you use both rotary and random orbital polishing/buffing equipment?
2) Do you use glazes to deal with micromarring and/or other defects?
3) How do you deal with serious paint damage such as deep scratches?
4) How do you.............?
Help me out guys.
Lexucan
Heya - it is definitely possible to use a rotary as a last step before waxing/sealaing, it just requires a little finesse. For example, on a car with say, moderate swirls I will usually do this:
rotary + menzerna IP on an orange. This will take out 75% of the marring and leave holograms
rotary + megs 80 on a white. This will take out about 10% or so of the marring and clean up the holograms *a little*
This is when I pull the PC out and do a pass with it to clean up the paint. *However*, I could do something like Clearkote VM on a black pad @ 1000rpm with the rotary and have perfect paint. It just requires a little more thought, because you have to move rather quickly, and because finishing polishes flash so quickly with a rotary it often isn't worth it.
So I guess the answer is that by rotary only is ok, but it will require an experienced user (which I suppose we already knew). I would just ask them how they will go about dealing with your car. 10 minutes under halogens should give them a good idea what their process will be. Make sure to let them know you will not accept the car if it is returned with rotary holograms - they'll get the idea. You can also ask them specificall ynot to use a glaze (don't get me wrong, glazes have their uses, I use them), but this way you'll be sure you're not being fooled by the glaze when you pick it up.
I wouldn't get too crazy with questions. Just size them up, ask what the process wil be, see if it makes sense (tell them to explain it), it should sound something like "we'll copound with the rotary then move to a finishing polish" or something with regard to polishing, you want them to do at least 2-3 steps on that part. Ask them what wax/sealant they'll be using and why (is it exceptionally durable? Does it look particularly good on your color car?). Ask them if they use acid based wheel cleaners, or how they'll treat your plastic trim - the answers should make sense. little things like that will give you good impression of their skill.
I hope this helps.
Last edited by picus; 05-21-06 at 12:54 PM.
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05-21-06, 04:36 PM
#8
Lexucanafer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by picus
Heya - it is definitely possible to use a rotary as a last step before waxing/sealaing, it just requires a little finesse. For example, on a car with say, moderate swirls I will usually do this:
rotary + menzerna IP on an orange. This will take out 75% of the marring and leave holograms
rotary + megs 80 on a white. This will take out about 10% or so of the marring and clean up the holograms *a little*
This is when I pull the PC out and do a pass with it to clean up the paint. *However*, I could do something like Clearkote VM on a black pad @ 1000rpm with the rotary and have perfect paint. It just requires a little more thought, because you have to move rather quickly, and because finishing polishes flash so quickly with a rotary it often isn't worth it.
So I guess the answer is that by rotary only is ok, but it will require an experienced user (which I suppose we already knew). I would just ask them how they will go about dealing with your car. 10 minutes under halogens should give them a good idea what their process will be. Make sure to let them know you will not accept the car if it is returned with rotary holograms - they'll get the idea. You can also ask them specificall ynot to use a glaze (don't get me wrong, glazes have their uses, I use them), but this way you'll be sure you're not being fooled by the glaze when you pick it up.
I wouldn't get too crazy with questions. Just size them up, ask what the process wil be, see if it makes sense (tell them to explain it), it should sound something like "we'll copound with the rotary then move to a finishing polish" or something with regard to polishing, you want them to do at least 2-3 steps on that part. Ask them what wax/sealant they'll be using and why (is it exceptionally durable? Does it look particularly good on your color car?). Ask them if they use acid based wheel cleaners, or how they'll treat your plastic trim - the answers should make sense. little things like that will give you good impression of their skill.
I hope this helps.
rotary + menzerna IP on an orange. This will take out 75% of the marring and leave holograms
rotary + megs 80 on a white. This will take out about 10% or so of the marring and clean up the holograms *a little*
This is when I pull the PC out and do a pass with it to clean up the paint. *However*, I could do something like Clearkote VM on a black pad @ 1000rpm with the rotary and have perfect paint. It just requires a little more thought, because you have to move rather quickly, and because finishing polishes flash so quickly with a rotary it often isn't worth it.
So I guess the answer is that by rotary only is ok, but it will require an experienced user (which I suppose we already knew). I would just ask them how they will go about dealing with your car. 10 minutes under halogens should give them a good idea what their process will be. Make sure to let them know you will not accept the car if it is returned with rotary holograms - they'll get the idea. You can also ask them specificall ynot to use a glaze (don't get me wrong, glazes have their uses, I use them), but this way you'll be sure you're not being fooled by the glaze when you pick it up.
I wouldn't get too crazy with questions. Just size them up, ask what the process wil be, see if it makes sense (tell them to explain it), it should sound something like "we'll copound with the rotary then move to a finishing polish" or something with regard to polishing, you want them to do at least 2-3 steps on that part. Ask them what wax/sealant they'll be using and why (is it exceptionally durable? Does it look particularly good on your color car?). Ask them if they use acid based wheel cleaners, or how they'll treat your plastic trim - the answers should make sense. little things like that will give you good impression of their skill.
I hope this helps.
And I have one final question for you - it seems we're in the same country so.........do you do mobile detailing work??? I'm located in B.C. so it's only a few thousands miles for you to travel.
Thanks for allowing me to benefit from your obviously extensive knowledge on the subject.
05-21-06, 08:13 PM
#9
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Have you ever clicked my sig link? I actually do mobile detailing, but somehow I think BC is a little out of my 50km range.
Happy to help; if you have any more questions let us know. There are quite a few knowledgable guys on this forum.
05-22-06, 01:24 AM
#10
Lexucanafer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by picus
Have you ever clicked my sig link? I actually do mobile detailing, but somehow I think BC is a little out of my 50km range.
So, how about if I meet you half way in say.......Saskatoon?
No?....well I had to give it a shot.
05-22-06, 09:19 AM
#12
Lexucanafer
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by picus
I don't think they have running water in Saskatoon - I guess I'll have to go all the way to Calgary. :P
So, since that's the case, ya might just as well keep truckin' all the way.
I'll get out my garden hose and extension cord and be ready for ya........hey, this is working out well isn't it.
05-22-06, 01:27 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by picus
I don't think they have running water in Saskatoon - I guess I'll have to go all the way to Calgary. :P
I thought Maple, Ontario was far for you!
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