Detailed....Dissapointed....How?
12-13-07, 12:18 AM
#1
Detailed....Dissapointed....How?
It starts off from a dirty car, full of swirls (web) marks, rather rough (dusty feeling) paint and dull looking....so I decided to go for a detail. Searched over lots of website in L.A, and fine this one promising. Frankly, I am really dissapointed at the detailer...its AllureDetail.com...basically, comes over and do the detailing at home..watched him do the detail, wash the car, clay, polish, swirl remover, wax, tire dressing, window...all for a decent $175 and it took 10.45pm and close to 5pm...thats quite a long time...well at first, it look really shiny, smooth and reflective. But as I see the paint under a torch light, I still see my swirls all over!! Any1 knows an easy way to get it down? I just polished and wax my car...and looking to get rid of the swirls myself...and I don't have a porter cable nor I want to buy one...so how should i began?
12-13-07, 06:26 AM
#5
This is a case where someone simply 'went through the motions' but didn't stop and examine if what he was doing was effective. Just slopping some polish on a car, turning a machine on and sweeping it over the finish isn't enough.
FWIW, removing swirls ALONE can take a full day, not including all the other steps. To do it right.
Either find someone that will fix the swirls and do whatever it takes, or take a panel at a time and DIY. If nothing else, it will give you insight into just what kind of time, technique and products are required. It's a big learning curve.
Lastly, be realistic.
I've seen some incredible black and dark colored paint jobs costing $20,000, on show cars, and they still exhibit *some* minor spider webbing etc.in the sun.
You have to reach a point where you''re satisfied but reasonable in your desires. And usually, $175 won't get it for you.
Good luck!
FWIW, removing swirls ALONE can take a full day, not including all the other steps. To do it right.
Either find someone that will fix the swirls and do whatever it takes, or take a panel at a time and DIY. If nothing else, it will give you insight into just what kind of time, technique and products are required. It's a big learning curve.
Lastly, be realistic.
I've seen some incredible black and dark colored paint jobs costing $20,000, on show cars, and they still exhibit *some* minor spider webbing etc.in the sun.
You have to reach a point where you''re satisfied but reasonable in your desires. And usually, $175 won't get it for you.
Good luck!
12-13-07, 07:20 AM
#6
I'm of the opinion that you need to do two things. First you need to make clear to your chosen detailer what your expectation are before he starts. Second, you can't really price shop for the cheapest guy and expect the best results. I'm of the opinion from reading your posts here that you wanted a nearly flawless detail. Such a detail would have cost you around $300 from a top detailer. You paid for less and got less IMHO.
That said, where are the before and after pictures? If you shot some pics we could see what that detailer did for his money. He really spent a lot of time on your car for the money he was paid. It sounds to me like you found a detailer who does the same thing with the same products to every car. But why not speak with him and ask him if he can do a better job of correcting the marring. Most responsible detailers should be willing to make things right or explain why he can't and offer you some compensation.
Another thing is that under illumination from a small point source torch light you can see paint defects that are virtually invisible in ordinary light. Unless your detailer pulled your car into the sun occasionally or used a high lumen point source of light to examine his work he would not see these defects. Can you see them in ordinary daylight?
Often, I have found paint that is very hard and doesn't respond to the usual polish and pads. Then it requires that I step up with more agressive products. I know this by polishing a small 2' x 2' section and inspecting the results. Until I get that small section to respond I won't know what products and techniques I need to do the whole car.
As a last note, For around what you paid for that detail, you could have purchased a PC, and all the pads and supplies needed to do the job yourself and redo the job many times in the future. You could then spend whatever time is needed to remove the most stubborn swirls. I know you said you didn't want to buy one, but you will not get your paint to the level you want by hand. I suspect you will not get the paint to the condition you want from the lower tier detailers either.
But do give the detailer an opportunity to respond to your concerns.
That said, where are the before and after pictures? If you shot some pics we could see what that detailer did for his money. He really spent a lot of time on your car for the money he was paid. It sounds to me like you found a detailer who does the same thing with the same products to every car. But why not speak with him and ask him if he can do a better job of correcting the marring. Most responsible detailers should be willing to make things right or explain why he can't and offer you some compensation.
Another thing is that under illumination from a small point source torch light you can see paint defects that are virtually invisible in ordinary light. Unless your detailer pulled your car into the sun occasionally or used a high lumen point source of light to examine his work he would not see these defects. Can you see them in ordinary daylight?
Often, I have found paint that is very hard and doesn't respond to the usual polish and pads. Then it requires that I step up with more agressive products. I know this by polishing a small 2' x 2' section and inspecting the results. Until I get that small section to respond I won't know what products and techniques I need to do the whole car.
As a last note, For around what you paid for that detail, you could have purchased a PC, and all the pads and supplies needed to do the job yourself and redo the job many times in the future. You could then spend whatever time is needed to remove the most stubborn swirls. I know you said you didn't want to buy one, but you will not get your paint to the level you want by hand. I suspect you will not get the paint to the condition you want from the lower tier detailers either.
But do give the detailer an opportunity to respond to your concerns.
Last edited by jfelbab; 12-13-07 at 07:29 AM.
12-13-07, 07:35 AM
#7
Great advice here guys; I don't know how I can add to what is already said here but here goes..
As others has mentioned, it takes a very long time to inspect and re-work each and every panel..175 is a bargain if this person can get it done for that price..But a lot of times, you get what you paid for..It wouldn't be efficient for him to spend 10 hours on your car and only get paid 175..
In addition, if the car is black, it can be a very challenging job, sometimes you can spend 7-8 hours polishing and mircoswirls will still be there...You can even see it more so under the sun...A lot of times you can even spend 20 hours on it and swirls will still be there, it depends on the age of the paint and the extend of the damage...For newer cars, light swirls are easily reverseable, but for older undermaintained cars, it can be quite the job...Sometimes it'll buff off other times it will not...From 11-5 isn't enough time to get the job done especially if the car is undermaintained..
I believe somewhere in there there was a lapse in communication..The detailer always ask the client what their expectations are..Everyone has different preferences and what they put more emphasis on...
Always, always, always take before and pictures if you are detailer that way you can keep a record of the detail and so that way if the client is unsatisfactory you can always refer to the pics as reference..
As others has mentioned, it takes a very long time to inspect and re-work each and every panel..175 is a bargain if this person can get it done for that price..But a lot of times, you get what you paid for..It wouldn't be efficient for him to spend 10 hours on your car and only get paid 175..
In addition, if the car is black, it can be a very challenging job, sometimes you can spend 7-8 hours polishing and mircoswirls will still be there...You can even see it more so under the sun...A lot of times you can even spend 20 hours on it and swirls will still be there, it depends on the age of the paint and the extend of the damage...For newer cars, light swirls are easily reverseable, but for older undermaintained cars, it can be quite the job...Sometimes it'll buff off other times it will not...From 11-5 isn't enough time to get the job done especially if the car is undermaintained..
I believe somewhere in there there was a lapse in communication..The detailer always ask the client what their expectations are..Everyone has different preferences and what they put more emphasis on...
Always, always, always take before and pictures if you are detailer that way you can keep a record of the detail and so that way if the client is unsatisfactory you can always refer to the pics as reference..
Last edited by One HoT; 12-13-07 at 07:46 AM.
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12-13-07, 09:06 AM
#8
Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I agree with all the comments above though. If you specifically asked him to remove the swirl marks and they are still there, that's reason enough to call him to discuss it. Do you recall what type of machine he used? 1 machine or 2? Most people use 2, a rotary and a random orbital, unless they have a dual mode one. Btu even then, I sometimes need to use a true rotary.
12-14-07, 02:29 PM
#9
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I also agree with the above. If you had told me the $175 price before he started I would have predicted the outcome.
One other thought - Did you wash the car after the detail and before you noticed the swirls? Could be with improper washing techniques, you reintroduced them yourself. If this is a black Lexus, they have soft paint and will swirl easily.
It can be difficult to find a good detailer, but a good one will examine your paint and give you a price based on the condition of your car. If the swirls are deep, it takes a lot more work and time to get them out and a good detailer will explain this to you and, of course, charge you accordingly.
I hope you find the right guy.
One other thought - Did you wash the car after the detail and before you noticed the swirls? Could be with improper washing techniques, you reintroduced them yourself. If this is a black Lexus, they have soft paint and will swirl easily.
It can be difficult to find a good detailer, but a good one will examine your paint and give you a price based on the condition of your car. If the swirls are deep, it takes a lot more work and time to get them out and a good detailer will explain this to you and, of course, charge you accordingly.
I hope you find the right guy.
12-14-07, 03:45 PM
#10
i also have to agree with guitarman and jfelbab. for 175 bucks and the time he spent on your car, that sounds about right. granted we have no photos here yet to see how "bad" it is, but honestly you can't (and shouldn't) expect perfect results.
as stated by others, getting to no swirls and complete mirror finish? even for $300 that's a good price imho. it could be tremendous amount of work and over 4-5 layers of polish.
and as mentioned above, be realistic. if it's your daily driver and a car that you takes everywhere, don't even try to attempt for perfect finish. you will be happy for 5 mins before you cry. for daily driver, imho if you can get to a shiny mirror finish from most angles / inspections, and pictures, it's very good already.
my 2 cents
as stated by others, getting to no swirls and complete mirror finish? even for $300 that's a good price imho. it could be tremendous amount of work and over 4-5 layers of polish.
and as mentioned above, be realistic. if it's your daily driver and a car that you takes everywhere, don't even try to attempt for perfect finish. you will be happy for 5 mins before you cry. for daily driver, imho if you can get to a shiny mirror finish from most angles / inspections, and pictures, it's very good already.
my 2 cents
12-14-07, 09:03 PM
#11
I'm going to have to disagree about pricing because it's nonsense. I know a lot of detailers who work for maybe $120 for a full exterior detail.. The price doesn't define the detailer...it's the other way around. The detailer charges however much he/she is comfortable with and it doesn't matter how skilled that person is. You cant predict the outcome of the work by looking at a triple digit number. A person who charges $150 will have the same amount of pride in their work as someone who charges $300.Some charge more to cope with the price of their equipment/trailer/canopy/etc where as others do not need such resources.
12-14-07, 11:40 PM
#12
taking pride in what he does doesn't mean the result the customer expects though. it could be a very fair job for the money (and a lot of times i don't doubt). if someone charges 120 bucks and spend 20 hours on a car to make it a mirror finish, more power to him. but that's 6 bucks an hour?
12-15-07, 06:53 AM
#13
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taking pride in what he does doesn't mean the result the customer expects though. it could be a very fair job for the money (and a lot of times i don't doubt). if someone charges 120 bucks and spend 20 hours on a car to make it a mirror finish, more power to him. but that's 6 bucks an hour?
Good detailing requires skill, knowledge and practice. There are many that will set up a mobile detail business with little experience. A good detailer will understand the proper products and techniques for your particular car and paint situation and will be able to do each step efficiently.
If you are lucky enough to find a good detailer willing to spend 6 hrs for $175,
his price is sure to increase with his reputation.
12-15-07, 08:24 AM
#14
taking pride in what he does doesn't mean the result the customer expects though. it could be a very fair job for the money (and a lot of times i don't doubt). if someone charges 120 bucks and spend 20 hours on a car to make it a mirror finish, more power to him. but that's 6 bucks an hour?
Then again, not everyone details for a living. If someone is doing it for a living, then I can understand why that person would want to charge the amount he/she does. Most of the guys I know will detail on calls. The only time I have ever spent 20 hours on an exterior detail was on my friend's black 93 Honda accord where his paint is so oxidized that the car looked gray from far away. Most other exterior details will only take me about 6-7 hours. If someone can charge twice as much as I do because their PC takes them twice as long to do the job, more power to them. There are lots of guys out there who detail cars as a hobby. You just don't hear too much about them because they do not advertise themselves or have a fancy trailer, so then most people think what the pro's charge is normal.
Obviously everyone's philosophy is different so I'm not going to tell anyone that they're wrong. I just disagree...that's all
Last edited by GSteg; 12-15-07 at 08:29 AM.
12-15-07, 09:53 AM
#15
you are looking at what we say here wrongly. none of us is saying that a $350 bucks shop will be better than $250. we are just saying that for a $175 jobs, it's unlikely that it will get the results that the OP had hoped for.
it's like going into a grocery store, if some apples are being sold for 1 cents a lb, i would highly doubt about their quality (what we said here). but none of us is saying that apples sold for 2 bucks a lb are all superb. see the difference?
it's like going into a grocery store, if some apples are being sold for 1 cents a lb, i would highly doubt about their quality (what we said here). but none of us is saying that apples sold for 2 bucks a lb are all superb. see the difference?