jfelbab

All the Lexus vehicles I've done have worked great with the MF pads. I did have some difficulty with Honda paint though.

embolism

our paint is soft but fine for the MF system. There were quite a few 2IS done with them by the pros at AG...

Bigrahizzl

iTrader: (8)

Cool, this might have been mentioned above but I will be returning the 6 inch correction system and will be getting the 5 inch. Which da should I use with this system. I know detailed said to get the megs but that da won't be available for some time. I'm still debating between PC and GG

ITR43

Cry me a river. What false assertion did I make? I believe you're the one making false assertions. No where in the "blanket statement" does it exclude the DA polisher from it's warranty policy. Since you have done your research, can you tell me what the useful life is on a DA polisher? I'm assuming it's longer than 1 year.

If you get hair and junk into the motor, that is possibly user negligence. And therefore not a failure on Griot's part. But if the user were to maintain their equipment the warranty would still apply.

This is an email directly from Griots:

Thank you for contacting Griot's Garage with your question regarding returns. We have a lifetime warranty against defects so if something has gone bad on the inside we can replace or credit you for that item. The best thing to do would be to give us a call so we can track down the order that your orbital was on and go from there.

I personally have a PC, but think the GG is a superior system. I don't have any first hand experience with the Meg polisher, but assume it's a good system as well. Using the right pad with the right polish is going to be more important in the end.

97-SC300

iTrader: (17)

This is what I am wondering...

If Meguiar's claims that the new MF correction system has superior correcting abilities to a traditional foam pad on a DA (no doubts, I trust Meguiars), does this also mean it takes off more paint?

Faster correction=more aggressive product=more clearcoat taken off.
This completely goes against the idea of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, something that could be achieved with the foam system since you have such a wide range of pads to choose from.

Again, this is my assumption, has anyone measured paint thickness prior to using the MF system and took a reading after finishing to see how it affected the thickness? Just wondering...

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

Nice try. No one was crying, nor was anyone making it a crisis. It was a question about something you said. Moving on...

You made the false assertion that it had a lifetime warranty where the company would replace it if it does not work. This is not the case since it could shut down due to wear and tear (such as the brushes as I already pointed out).

Possibly? No. That is definitely user negligence and will certainly cause a failure. The warranty only applies to defects. Failure to operate due to wear and tear is not a defect, and is a caveat when buying mechanical gear.

Fantastically vague, but simply restating what was already understood - it's a warranty against a defect. Wear and tear isn't a defect.

Completely agree on the last point.

I cannot say if the Griot system is better without experience, but I am not sure about the flexible handle. Yes it should allow for more controlled pressure on the outer edge of the pad system, but I think someone with a bit of experience with the PC can do this task fairly well using the fixed handle, too.

Big Mack

jfelbab

No. You take off the right amount of paint that you need to remove the swirls faster. You don't need to polish for as long to accomplish the swirl-free finish.

Guitarman

This is an informative thread, let's try to keep it from getting out of hand, civility-wise folks, T/Y.

ITR43

I was wondering the same thing. Seems like it would be more aggressive than needed for some types of paint.

embolism

to quote/summarize a few of the pro's at AG:

swirls or scratches are the absence of paint/clear as compared to their surroundings. The only way to get rid of them is to remove the surrounding clear so that the surface is all at the same level again... some scratches are too deep and sometimes they will be even more noticeable once all the smaller scratches and swirls are removed from around them. Sometimes you have to weigh the risks to your paint and leave such scratches alone i.e. a show car finish is not always possible on a daily driver

the Meg's MF system or foam will both get you to the same end point -- level paint. If you have a more aggressive system then you will get to that end point faster. The beauty of the system is that the pros are getting to that point with less passes and the finish is such that it is almost lsp ready (the same can't be said for rotary/compounding). This saves them time and time is money...

I agree that the MF cutting discs and D300 compound do work fast. If you were to do the same number of passes as you would need with foam and a less aggressive compound, then you would remove more clear than you need to. But if it took you 2 passes with the MF system to get to the same point as 6-8 passes with another system, and you still had the safety and finishing ability of the DA working for you, wouldn't that be preferable?

Todd@ProperAutoCare

Hopefully I can chime in with some assistance/help on the Meg's DA system.

I have been (pre) beta testing this system for almost 18 months prior to Meguiar's offically ackwoledging that it does even exist (prior to the soft-launch at SEMA).

As noted above, swirls or scratches are channels of missing clear coat (or paint). The only way to remove swirls (or any paint defect that penetrates the surface) is to remove all of the paint that is above the deepest level. This creates a new, smooth surface.

So what advantages does the new DA microfiber system have over more traditional polishing systems?

First lets look at the liquid component, the compound. Meguiar's D300 compound uses similar abrasives to those originally used in M86 So1o Polish and later perfected with Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound. These abrasives are ultra fine (think as fine as a finishing polish that is fully broken down, SUPER FINE). Where as a tradtional compound will start with a large abrasive that fractures apart (becoming finer and finer) D300 uses a very fine abrasive that cannot fracture apart any further. In terms of aluminum oxide, this would be called the 'cyrstal'.

This is important because a compound (or most polishes) require a certain amount of friction (speed/time/pressure) for the polish to break down, otherwise you could be left with some pretty bad marring. So you have to work the polish through a cycle to get the best, most even finish. With D300, because the abrasives are so fine, you are constantly polishing the surface. You don't have to wait for the abrasives to break down in order to get a high quality surface, its available right from the beginning.

This is because most polishes/compound level paint by inflicting their own scratches, which clumsily become finer and finer (and the surface more level) as the abrasive breaks apart. D300 takes very fine (but a lot of them) bites of the paint as it polishes the paint down.

However, because we are dealing with very fine abrasives, you will not quite get that initial aggressive cutting action of more aggressive compounds. However you are left with a far better finish, that in some cases may be wax ready. That ultimately makes D300 (or M105 or M86) more aggressive then the finishing polishes is the sheer number of abrasives. You are final polishing, but at a much much quicker rate, if that makes sense.

But the liquid is only one part of the system, and M105 has a been around for a while, and people are already familar with how the unique abrasive system is benefical.

So what specifically makes the microfiber pads more aggressive/better than foam pads when used on a DA?

The simple fact that foam pads are very inefficent on a DA. Much of the orbital motion of the machine (the tiny wax on/wax off circles) is absorbed by the foam (like a bowl of Jello jiggling on itself). As much as 80% of the orbital motion is simply absorbed by the flexing and twisting of the pad as it fights against two points of friction. The pad's contact patch with the paint as well as with the backing plate. This is why a foam pad gets warm on a DA (and the backing plate interface gets hot) and why the paint gets hot on a rotary.

Since a lot of the orbital action is absorbed in the pad, we are left with a slow turning rotary to do the work. Using a thinner pad will increase the effectiveness (This is why a 7/8th inch thick pad will act more aggressive then a 1 1/4 inch pad). Think of applying wax with a foam applicator by hand in tiny circles. If the pad was thin, it would fit right into the nook of your fingers and glide across the paint. Going to the other extreme, if the applicator was a 1 foot thick, you would have a hard time getting it to move across the paint by doing tiny circles. It would probably sit stationary on the paint as the foam twisted as you spun your arm in tiny, furious circles. Unless you pressed down really hard and compressed the foam. This is the same reason that a lot of pressure has to be added to a DA when using foam pads.

The microfiber disks however, take the orbital motion of the machine and use it their advantage. Because the nap of the fiber is short, the orbital motion twists the fibers over as it spins. Much more of the orbital motion is transfered to the paint, since less is absorbed in the short piles of microfiber. This also has a unique advantage in that it (by exposing all of the sides of the microfibers) dramatically increases the surface area of the pad. Much like a head of hair has more surface area then a bald head.

This increase in surface area allows for far more abrasives to worked at the same time, compared to the flat surface of a foam pad. In testing we found that a microfiber pad will hold roughly 8 times the abrasives as the surface of a medium PPI foam pad, and actively engage about 2times as many at a given time. You have twice the abrasives (at all times) cutting on an equally sized microfiber pad (and 4 times as many clean abrasives waiting to cut) as you do with a foam pad.

And since we are relying on the orbital motion and microfiber pad to expose a lot of abrasives to the paint in an efficient manner, it makes sense to use a non-diminishing abrasive polish (like D300) that will allow a huge concentrating of ultra fine abrasives to gently (but quickly) remove paint defects.

Cliff notes: Foam pads hinder the orbital motion of the machine, microfiber pads amplify it. By having as many as two times the abrasives working in a more efficient manner, you have the potential to remove material at least 3 times as fast while maintaining a high gloss finish.

Microfiber DA compared to a rotary.

The main advantage of the microfiber DA vs. a rotary is in the fact that the microfiber DA pad is going to have a far greater surface area (per equal pad size) of the pad working and expose far more abrasives to the paint. A rotary will always only utilize the surface of the pad, because it's motion is linear. However a rotary uses far greater force (the outter edge of a 6 inch pad exceeds 30 mph at 1800 rpm), so while it is less efficencent in its use of abrasivse, it is using them with far greater force.

Also the faster you spin a rotary, the more leveling for you are creating from the pad (whether foam or rotary). This is because centrigal force is going to pull the spinning pad outward. Take a ball tied to a string and spin it above your head. If you spin it lazily the string will have a lot of slack; if you really whip it around the string will pull very taut. A rotary that is spinning at 1500 rpm is going have a stiffer pad surface (which creates more leveling potenital) then a DA spinning at 200 RPM, even if the same pad is used.

In many ways the DA is capable (when used efficiently) of polishing better, faster, and more effectively then using a rotary polisher BUT when it comes to the ability to quickly remove material, the rotary is king.

You can remove sanding marks with the DA Microfiber System (I have removed 1500 grit marks 2 years ago), but not as quickly as I can with a rotary polisher/wool pad/compound.

However I can remove the residual compounding marks faster with the DA and leave a near LSP (or LSP) ready surface much faster with the DA system.

That said I started off as a rotary guy, I was named one of the best detailers in the country by Autoweek Magazine, and I have had cars win best in class, best paint, best in show at some of the most heavily judged concours events in the world. I know how to spin a rotary, and for a long time I considered the DA a beginner tool that was incapable of creating the quality of finish that I could with a rotary.

However in working with this system, and learning about pad dynamics, abrasives, losses, etc I have learned more about polishing than I even knew existed. Today I use my DA as much as my rotary, and feel I can produce a better result now, then I did when I was winning best in show awards using only a rotary.

Hope this helps.

Bigrahizzl

iTrader: (8)

Wow that's alot of great info.

Now my question is, can I use this microfiber system with a DA other then Megs G110V2?

embolism

wow this is great info Todd!

and yes, you can use it with any DA. I believe the kit you bought even has the Megs 5" backing plate which is recommended b/c it helps keep the pads cooler. Again, though the system was designed for the Megs DA, ppl are using it with PC's, GG's, Lake country bp's, and compounds other than D300. Find something you like and use it. Half the fun is trying new things.

Bigrahizzl

iTrader: (8)

I bought the 6" so i will be returning it and getting the 5" kit instead.

Cool, i can now go ahead and choose the DA

NVTHSLEX

iTrader: (3)

That is a lot of info.

To make things a little simplier Todd, which DA would you recommend ?

Lets say cost is not a factor.