RON430

I have been experimenting with different protectants on my 2k1 dark blue GS for some time and now have some extended comments on the recent tryout. I have been using P21s concourse wax for about three months and it is very impressive. First coat was just a quick protection while the weather was still cold here but yesterday allowed me to look at how it has been doing and really get into the application. I replaced Zymol Concours (which is something like $125 a jar) with the P21s and there is no comparison but as most of the folks here are using Zaino, which I originally used, that is what I will direct my comments to for comparison purposes.

The process was to wash the car with Dawn, then clayed with Griot clay and Speed Shine. Followed up with the Porter Cable and Griot Machine Polish 3 to get some scratches out of the hood, front fenders, roof, trunk lid, and rear bumber. Then used Meguiars #7 glaze and finally the P21s. The reason I was less than impressed with the Zaino was that I felt that I could get a deeper shine on a dark color than the Zaino and contaminants like sap, bugs, bird s*** adhere to Zaino like epoxy and don't come off very easily. The first big change was using the clay. On the P21s, the clay worked as advertised and took the vast majority of "bumps" off of the P21s. I haven't found clay to be very useful on Zaino because what doesn't wash off is there for good. When I went through a river birch sap incident (if that tree wasn't in our industrial park I would cut it down for spite) and I could slowly get bits of the sap off but finally had to go around with a finger nail and "pop" it off which was a chore. The P21s seems to not let contaminants really get a hold and they come right off, which is what I was looking for. So I give the advantage to the P21s over the Zaino.

As for application, this may be hard to believe to the Zaino crowd but the P21s is just as easy, or easier due to less layers, to apply. My experience with Zymol is that it puts a very thin layer down and you want to give it time to "set". But if you wait too long, you need a chisel to remove the haze. The P21s is about as easy to remove as any Zaino haze if you follow the instructions. I started experimenting with going longer time (applying more to the car) and I got up to doing half the car at one time. With microfiber polishing cloths it came right off. I started my whole process a little after 11AM and the P21s was so easy to apply, I did two coats and finished up everything a little after 4PM and I am not the quickest guy around. I don't feel the Meguiar's glaze was really worth it so considering that at a minimum I did four applications of Zaino (Z1, Z5, Z2, Z6) for an initial application, I give P21s the advantage over Zaino for application effort. The Zaino does do a slightly better job removing swirl marks but I have always been of the group that you polish to get rid of the marks and then use a protectant. The Meguiars and the P21s do some filling of fine marks but if this is highest on your list and you don't have the ability to polish, the Zaino has a slight advantage. The word of caution here is that it is almost impossible to either polish all the fine scratches out or have Zaino hide them. Color sanding and polishing by a pro is the answer here. And it helps to have a car that you only drive back and forth to Pebble Beach once a year. For the rest of us, it is just a fact of life for a car in the real world.

The good part for me was the depth of the shine on the dark color. The Zaino almost had a slight haze to it that was difficult to see but didn't seem to let the real depth of a dark color show through. This is a judgement call (and there is no way you would see it in a photo) but I give the edge to the P21s. At certain angles it makes the paint look a quarter inch thick and when you really look into it, there is about that three foot depth to the shine that I was really looking for. This may not hold up on a lighter color but on a dark color, I give the edge to the P21s. Might be slight but it is there. And it passed the wife test. Without mentioning a new product application she made the comment that the car looked the best it ever has.

Longevity. I had around four layers of Z5 and eight or ten layers of Z5 and Z6 so there were a lot of applications involved but obviously Zaino is an extremely durable finish. You can easily get months of protection out of it. However, I never felt the Zaino hardened up like a carnuba does, seems like it stayed a little soft. My car is always garaged and obviously the weather in California is not all that harsh but one coat of the P21s easily provided three months of protection with very good beading at the final wash. One other thing, the Dawn takes the P21s off with no problem but when I took the Zaino off, the Dawn didn't seem to do it and I ended up wiping the car down repeatedly with 3M adhesive remover which I was not such a big fan of, the car almost seemed to get "gummy" with the Zaino like there was an oil on the surface. I had been thinking that I had to give the Zaino the nod for longevity but upon thinking about it, I am not sure if it is fair to compare twelve coats of Zaino to one of the P21s but this one is somewhere between a slight advantage for Zaino to a dead heat.

As for cost, I don't have the current numbers on the Zaino but I think the P21s was about $25 for a jar that looks like it will do something like five applications to a car the size of a GS. Seems like all my orders for Zaino were multiple hundreds of dollars but I also couldn't resist the other goodies.

In the final analysis I am very happy with the P21s, as should be obvious, and will use it on the dark blue GS, my wife's new parchment GS3 is undecided as of yet due to some body work and letting the paint cure. I have used many waxes over the years including custom mixes provided by very good concours detailers and the P21s is the best product I have ever seen. Don't really want to sway any of the Zaino supporters because I think it is a very good product as well. If you want the polymer product, Zaino is the best out there. But if you want a carnuba wax, P21s is the best I have seen. As far as I am concerned the difference is whether you want the polymer or the carnuba, these two are the best. So there you are. If you are interested in a carnuba wax, I highly recommend the P21s. Any wax that outdoes the ease of application, depth of shine, and maintainability of Zaino is something special.

GS4Will

Ron..wow..impressive work and review...

twenty1

ron: cost-wise, you think it's more expensive to use p21 compared to bare bones zaino product ? can't remember the numbers, but it's only like 2-3 things that you absolutely have to get (25-30 bucks? i could be off on this though). i agree, my zaino order usually gets to 80-90 bucks, but that's 'cause i get the car wash, clay bar, detail spray, etc. i'm not trying to debate with you here. i'm open minded, and will keep p21 in mind. i have a white gs, so i don't get to appreciate car shine as much as colored car owners can.

RON430

twenty1 - Somebody is going to have to determine how many applications you get from the Zaino bottles, and how many you really need. I didn't get too carried away but did a brief search and the P21s carnauba concourse wax is around $20 - 22 a jar. From looking at how much is left, I would say you would get around five to seven applications on a GS sized car. You might be able to stretch it a little further but I wasn't all that interested in stretching it. Besides, the P21s comes with a foam applicator in the jar and I just used it, might be able to stretch a little further with somehting else as an applicator. All the other prep I would do before either finish so the cost is not much of a factor. I figured on Z1 because you need it to get adhesion, Z5 for filling swirls, Z2 for protectant, and Z6 for the gloss enhancement which did make a difference (slight, but you could see it). With 8oz bottles that comes up to 48.80. In actuality I doubt either one has much advantage price wise. But I do feel I got a better, deeper shine with just two applications of the P21s while I had many, many coats of the Zaino. Might not have spent the money in the product but I did spend it in my time. Of course if you add the ZFX accelerator you get to add another 19.95 to the above total for the Zaino. I don't really think I would like to make a choice on the cost issue. I think the two biggest factors for me is the three feet deep shine on the daaaaaaaaaaark blue and the fact that conatminants come off a lot easier. I believe the best possible situation for us car enthusiasts is to have alternatives and I firmly believe right now that the best products out there are the P21s for a carnauba wax and Zaino for a polymer protectant, and the gap to second place in both category is very large. I have both in the garage and, like I said, I still haven't exactly decided what to use on my wife's new parchment GS3. I am going to keep watching the P21s to confirm it has good durability and I may use it on her car. Probably the biggest reason to use the P21s first is because if I don't like it, Dawn takes it off pretty easily. Geting Zaino off is a bit more of a hassle. Besides, I have seen in the past on silver cars that the finish does make a difference. It is amazing the look of a really well prepared and protected silver or sand color. May not be quite the same as the dark colors but then the dust, swirls, and stone chips are no where near as visible on the light colors.

The last issue that I am watching, and I really didn't have too much feeling for this, is the dust issue. I know Zaino claims to be somewhat anti static but I am on my third California Car duster and I have noticed that the P21s seems to attract less dust but that could have been environmental effects more than anything. Once I get a feel for it, say over a month, I will post again.

///MDex

I echo the other comments so far with 'great write up, and thanks'.

Klasse gets my vote for the Polymer award. My detail guy can laydown a few coats of this in a few hours, and my Spectra Blue looks absolutley beautiful - deep and dark.

I did thre Zaino thing before, and like a few others, was unimpressed by its lack of depth return on investment in time with multiple layers and hours. [mubling Zaino, and spitting on the ground in defiance]

RON430

Cool Dex. I haven't tried the Klasse but I have heard good things about it too. I can't remember the site but I bought a review of something like 36 protectants and I think they ranked the Klasse very high as well on the polymer side. I am just old fashioned and really like the look of a good carnauba. I wish I could describe better the look of the Zaino on the dark blue, I think several of us have seen it. I don't know whether it is something like trapped moisture in the polymer or what. Not to misunderstand, the Zaino does a very good job but if you are the slightest bit fanatical (I don't recommend it, stay away from concours cars, it is a slippery slope) it just looks like you can do better. But I can't say enough about how exasperated I got with the adhesion of contaminants to the Zaino. Our cars are in the real world and are going to be exposed to this stuff. I expect any protectant to protect the paint and let the contaminants come off easily, even if I have to dissolve the protectant. But it is like things epoxy themselves to Zaino and I really find that to be the weakest part of Zaino.

I just looked at some of the sites that Daddy-O has gotten deals at and they carry the P21s for 22.95 and you get a CL discount of 10% off of that price. If you want to try it out, it is a good price, just thank Daddy-O for setting it up. And don't forget the microfiber towels - absolute must have.

///MDex

Exactly. When I was doing my own detailing, I was using Blitz One Grand Carnuba on top of a couple layers of #m Imperial Hand Glaze, and I loved it. I still use the Blitz on touch up areas.

It was recommended to me by Larry at CarCareOnline.com (really cool guy BTW) as his #1 choice for daily drivers.

I had been curious about polymers before, but after my Zaino experience, I said No Mas. But when this kid said he used it, and it would do wonders, I said go for it. Wow. I get a couple layers put on about every 4 months now. I mean, the car really looks like a different shade of Blue. Its amazing. Sorry Ron, not trying to turn this into a Klass thread.

Bradster

Does anybody know if using carnuba wax in high temp climates (ie: Fl,AZ) is a problem? something about the lack of UV protection and melting point of the wax? Thanks!

RON430

Carnauba and polymer sealants are both fairly complex hydrocarbons which don't transmit UV very well so both have no real concerns in that issue. My GS outside temp gauge says it is a nice toasty 99 today in San Jose and we can easily climb above that and I have never had an issue with either carnauba or polymer protectants in the common temperature ranges. The far worse problem is fallout from polution that can degrade the protectant pretty quickly. Most recommendations, regardless of type, is to apply every ninety days, at least to the top of the trunk, roof, and hood to provide extra protection where the crud settles out onto the car.

twenty1

being as i'm getting low on zaino, i may give the p21 a try. i appreciate the time and info you have put into this thread ron.

Guitarman

The fracture point of wax is a factor, but if you like using a carnauba it just means you'll have to wax more often for complete protection from the elements, bugs, etc.. BTW, most waxes (and some polymers) don't even have UV protection in them. Zaino is one of the few that does FWIW. Fortunately your paint does, so it isn't necessarily the most vitally important factor for most. It's VERY expensive to add UV protection to wax products, and the market competition is tightly priced for market share.

Also, every product will yield slightly different results for each person because there are too many variables; Paint type/color, condition of finish, climatic conditions, garaged or not, PH of rain and on and on, so you have to take peoples (even mine) opinions of products and what they do with a grain of salt, and usually find out for yourself. Polymers have strengths and weaknesses, as do carnaubas. If you want the best of both worlds IMO, apply Blackfire or Zaino, then a high quality carnauba. Protection/durability and depth.

Wax fractures melts at ~165 degrees or lower, depending on type.

Polymers ~400 degrees.

Waxes bond to paint physically

Polymers bond to paint chemically (this is why they're harder to remove, and also more durable).

Like Sgt. Joe Friday used to say; "just the facts ma'am"

///MDex

Good perspective and info Gman

Bradster

I'm using the Zaino treatment on my pearl white Lexus,any benefit to applying a coat of carnuba?

Guitarman

You'd probably notice a bit more "pop" from the oils in the carnauba initially, but it would last only a couple weeks before it started breaking down, and rain or car washing removing some of that effect. Do it often enough and you'd be ok.. From a durability POV, it won't really be better than the polymer IMO, just cosmetic. Nothing worng with that though , right?

Of course, it may be a negligible difference not warranting the work, try it on one panel and see.

RON430

Having used both Zaino and the P21s, my gut still says the Zaino lasts a bit longer but the P21s looked fine (and beaded the same) after three months, which surprised me. My guess is also that applying the carnauba over the Zaino will not improve things. If I am correct about the haze in the Zaino, it will still be there under the carnauba. If you like one, I would stick with it. While I like the possible protection from the polymer being greater than the carnauba it really was the depth of the shine and the problem with adhesion of contaminants that made me switch off the Zaino. The P21s is about the same effort as applying one coat of the Zaino and I always did multiple coats so the effort seems less with the P21s. And, as I said, when I do want to remove it or clay it, I like it to not involve a huge amount of work. I would like to apply protectant once every ninety days but that is a loose schedule. Then once a year I like to strip everything off, do whatever surface prep may be necessary, and reapply protectant. For now, I am very impressed with the P21s for an overall lower effort for application and maintenance. Cost is not a great issue either way as far as I can see. Besides the bird, insect, sap attacks, the biggest other problem is pollution. My guess is that the UV stabilizers are not added to protect the paint but to stabilize the polymer so that is not a big deal to me either. I still don't think you can really go wrong with either a good polymer (Zaino or Klasse) or a good carnauba like the P21s. I have used both on this vehicle and I find the carnauba to have the better balance of properties. I am just amazed how easy the P21s is to apply, Zymol could learn a lesson or two from them. Like I said when I started the thread, I was really just offering my experience from using both as well as the Zymol Concours.

Pay your money and take your choice.