Few questions...
06-09-03, 06:59 PM
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Few questions...
I live in Phoenix and recently got an 02' Lexus.
I'm very interested in protecting and enhancing the paint on the car. One of my concerns is the low temperature here is in the low 90's. Should the temperature outside be a concern to me when treating my paint? Is the synthetic or carnuba a better choice for me?? Another factor is the large amount of desert dust in the air. I'd be interested in knowing which product would attract less dust particles.
I'm also interested in claybaring the former wax off the car and starting fresh. Autozone had a claybar brand I didn't see on this site.....will any claybar do for this step??
While I'm asking, what's some of the better products you can buy from your local Autozone/Pep Boys/Target stores?? I've been reading about Zaino and P21=S100, can these be bought locally?
Thanks for any insight in advanced.
I'm very interested in protecting and enhancing the paint on the car. One of my concerns is the low temperature here is in the low 90's. Should the temperature outside be a concern to me when treating my paint? Is the synthetic or carnuba a better choice for me?? Another factor is the large amount of desert dust in the air. I'd be interested in knowing which product would attract less dust particles.
I'm also interested in claybaring the former wax off the car and starting fresh. Autozone had a claybar brand I didn't see on this site.....will any claybar do for this step??
While I'm asking, what's some of the better products you can buy from your local Autozone/Pep Boys/Target stores?? I've been reading about Zaino and P21=S100, can these be bought locally?
Thanks for any insight in advanced.
06-10-03, 12:01 PM
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Daddy-O will probably jump in with more info but quickly, here are some answers. I haven't seen any product that really wants to be applied to a really hot car. I think you would benefit from getting in inside or at least in the shade and then maybe wash it to cool it off to under that toasty 90 (and if the air is 90, the surface of your car is likely considerably warmer than that). As for the dust, I think the jury is still out but I do believe that the P21s/S100 attracts slightly less dust although in your environment, this may be very difficult to really do much about.
As for getting wax off, blue Dawn is the remover of choice in my opinion. It won't really take Zaino off although it doesn make it an unattractive mess, also in my opinion. But a good blue Dawn mix will take most any wax right off. You just need to follow up with wax as their is no protectant on the finish anymore, a not so good thing. The clay bar removes some of that really sticky stuff. You put a lubricant on the surface and slide the clay around, which is very sticky, and it will pick things off of the finish and they stick in the clay (duh). Just don't want to use it dry as the clay comes off it little smears and it is a pain to get off. The clay vendors sell lubricants which are usually the quick detailer solutions. I have tried several different clays and haven't really seen much difference in any of them.
I guess the P21s/S100 is available in the S100 form at motorcycle shops (look at other posts) but I ordered the P21s off of the web (check the deals that Daddy-O has set up because I think one or more of them carry the P21s). While I have heard of a couple of distributors for Zaino, I ordered direct from Zaino, which I believe is the only real way to get it. You download the order form and send it with a check and they send the product back to you. Haven't seen the P21s/S100 or Zaino at any of the popular auto parts stores.
One last note, if you are going to do this yourself, and assuming the car finish isn't oxidized, do yourself a favor and get some of the microfiber towels. For either finish they are really the way to go, can't be emphasized enough.
Ron
As for getting wax off, blue Dawn is the remover of choice in my opinion. It won't really take Zaino off although it doesn make it an unattractive mess, also in my opinion. But a good blue Dawn mix will take most any wax right off. You just need to follow up with wax as their is no protectant on the finish anymore, a not so good thing. The clay bar removes some of that really sticky stuff. You put a lubricant on the surface and slide the clay around, which is very sticky, and it will pick things off of the finish and they stick in the clay (duh). Just don't want to use it dry as the clay comes off it little smears and it is a pain to get off. The clay vendors sell lubricants which are usually the quick detailer solutions. I have tried several different clays and haven't really seen much difference in any of them.
I guess the P21s/S100 is available in the S100 form at motorcycle shops (look at other posts) but I ordered the P21s off of the web (check the deals that Daddy-O has set up because I think one or more of them carry the P21s). While I have heard of a couple of distributors for Zaino, I ordered direct from Zaino, which I believe is the only real way to get it. You download the order form and send it with a check and they send the product back to you. Haven't seen the P21s/S100 or Zaino at any of the popular auto parts stores.
One last note, if you are going to do this yourself, and assuming the car finish isn't oxidized, do yourself a favor and get some of the microfiber towels. For either finish they are really the way to go, can't be emphasized enough.
Ron
06-10-03, 12:48 PM
#3
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B-Lexusfan,
congrats on the lexus. to answer your question (best i can), synthetic would be the best choice for you. the melting points for carnauba and synthetics are very different. in general, the best manmades will last til about 400degrees. i know the temperature outside doesn't get to 400, but a hot sheet metal surface in arizona will probably be hot, constantly.
Several wax products claim to "attract less dust." Meguiar's "Medallion" line of paint protection comes to mind, although after using is, it feels the same (but then again, i don't live in a super dusty area to know). www.meguiars.com.
You probably wouldnt need to claybar a car just to get rid of the old wax. although w/ an '02 in arizona, it might need a slight abrasive to cut through old particles embedded in the paint. you'd need to wash the car w/ regular car wash soap first to see.
congrats on the lexus. to answer your question (best i can), synthetic would be the best choice for you. the melting points for carnauba and synthetics are very different. in general, the best manmades will last til about 400degrees. i know the temperature outside doesn't get to 400, but a hot sheet metal surface in arizona will probably be hot, constantly.
Several wax products claim to "attract less dust." Meguiar's "Medallion" line of paint protection comes to mind, although after using is, it feels the same (but then again, i don't live in a super dusty area to know). www.meguiars.com.
You probably wouldnt need to claybar a car just to get rid of the old wax. although w/ an '02 in arizona, it might need a slight abrasive to cut through old particles embedded in the paint. you'd need to wash the car w/ regular car wash soap first to see.
06-10-03, 01:05 PM
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"You probably wouldnt need to claybar a car just to get rid of the old wax."
That's a new one on me, I don't believe clay will remove wax under any circumstances, it is just a sticky medium used to remove particles by having them stick to it. I also wouldn't get too wound up in temperature points (such as softening or melting points) for any of these protectants. I doubt there is much advantage one way or another in these hydrocarbons in this respect and traditional waxes like carnuba's have been used on cars for a lot longer than the polymers and I doubt anyone has gone out, even in Arizona, and found all there carnuba in a puddle next to the car. As for breaking down, pollution from the air is a bigger problem than heat, combined with washing chemicals. If you are into minimal car care I would probably go for the Zaino but if you intend to apply three or four times a year, probably not a bad idea in Arizona, either one should be fine.
That's a new one on me, I don't believe clay will remove wax under any circumstances, it is just a sticky medium used to remove particles by having them stick to it. I also wouldn't get too wound up in temperature points (such as softening or melting points) for any of these protectants. I doubt there is much advantage one way or another in these hydrocarbons in this respect and traditional waxes like carnuba's have been used on cars for a lot longer than the polymers and I doubt anyone has gone out, even in Arizona, and found all there carnuba in a puddle next to the car. As for breaking down, pollution from the air is a bigger problem than heat, combined with washing chemicals. If you are into minimal car care I would probably go for the Zaino but if you intend to apply three or four times a year, probably not a bad idea in Arizona, either one should be fine.
Last edited by RON430; 06-10-03 at 01:05 PM.
06-10-03, 03:51 PM
#5
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Originally posted by RON430
"You probably wouldnt need to claybar a car just to get rid of the old wax."
That's a new one on me, I don't believe clay will remove wax under any circumstances, it is just a sticky medium used to remove particles by having them stick to it. I also wouldn't get too wound up in temperature points (such as softening or melting points) for any of these protectants. I doubt there is much advantage one way or another in these hydrocarbons in this respect and traditional waxes like carnuba's have been used on cars for a lot longer than the polymers and I doubt anyone has gone out, even in Arizona, and found all there carnuba in a puddle next to the car. As for breaking down, pollution from the air is a bigger problem than heat, combined with washing chemicals. If you are into minimal car care I would probably go for the Zaino but if you intend to apply three or four times a year, probably not a bad idea in Arizona, either one should be fine.
"You probably wouldnt need to claybar a car just to get rid of the old wax."
That's a new one on me, I don't believe clay will remove wax under any circumstances, it is just a sticky medium used to remove particles by having them stick to it. I also wouldn't get too wound up in temperature points (such as softening or melting points) for any of these protectants. I doubt there is much advantage one way or another in these hydrocarbons in this respect and traditional waxes like carnuba's have been used on cars for a lot longer than the polymers and I doubt anyone has gone out, even in Arizona, and found all there carnuba in a puddle next to the car. As for breaking down, pollution from the air is a bigger problem than heat, combined with washing chemicals. If you are into minimal car care I would probably go for the Zaino but if you intend to apply three or four times a year, probably not a bad idea in Arizona, either one should be fine.
i made the claybar and wax association because B-Lexusfan specifically asked, "I'm also interested in claybaring the former wax off the car and starting fresh."
It was established in a thread a while back that there is no such thing as a pure carnauba wax. all waxes have synthetic substances in them, one way or another. once your car is coated with wax, it will not liquify into a puddle...the coating will just deterioate over time. one of the main differences between a carnauba finish and a synthetic wax finish is how long they can effectively do their job, especially in harsh conditions, such as arizona.
06-11-03, 10:18 AM
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Couldn't agree more. Just got curious about this temperature issue (can't remember who brought it up first) when talking about polymers like Zaino compared to "conventional" waxes like P21s. I don't think this is an issue with either one. Zaino might do a bit better than some "conventional" waxes but the agents that would make one degrade will inevitably make the other degrade. Neither one sees enough temperature, even in Arizona, to cause a fundamental breakdown. The polymers have some chemistry on their side for higher levels of cross linking but both have remarkably similar constituents and so far, the P21s is showing itself to be very close to the Zaino and I just prefer the look on the dark colors more. There is something I cannot put my finger on in the Zaino but if you get the light on it at the right angle, there is a slight haze in it that dulls the look on the dark colors. If you look straight on, you really wouldn't notice it. In any event, for B-lexusfan, claying won't remove wax. That is what the Blue Dawn is for, unless of course you have Zaino.
06-13-03, 07:04 PM
#7
http://www.autoint.com/tech__tips.htm
This link contains some of the best technical information on paint, from a company that works with the automobile makers to train people on the dealership level about paint, as well as professional detailers. Their advice and info can be taken as the authority on these issues-they help write the warranty specs for Ford, Daimler/Chrysler and GM, as well as foreign makes. As a pro detailer I was led to this site by the man I mentioned below. I have learned much over the years, and there's more to know still.
The temperature issue is unfortunately important since paint surface temps do exceed 200 degrees in the sun. Dark metallic green actually gets the hottest ( More than black), with the metallic particles on a dark background absorbing the most solar energy.
Please note the center block in that link page contains the aforementioned polymer vs wax fracture points. It IS pertinent IMO (And Autoint's) because when wax fractures, it breaks open and breaks down. Polymers are engineered to flex, and their bond is chemical and not physical like wax.
I take no side here ( I have a polymer on my cars topped with a carnauba) because I like both for different reasons, and one is better than the other at some things, the other better at others. It's all very subjective too, because the things that Ron reports are not necessarily the same results I may see on my car, and vice-versa . For instance, Zaino gives me not the slightest "hazing" on my black Supercoupe. Not trying to be argumentative at all Ron, I truly believe you're seeing that on yours, just a different perspective from my experience. Different paint, different variables etc.
If you like products with natural wax contained therein, the fact is you WILL have to apply it more often, especially in the summer. I personally don't mind, even enjoy it. It really all comes down to what a product does for you and your eyes, because we don't all see things the same way . There's no getting around the science and technical properties of these different products though, and the average Joe will still use what he likes even if the sun/elements break something down in short order. The laws of physics don't change because we prefer one thing over another though. No judgements there, it just IS.
There is a man there at www.autoint.com named Ron Ketcham , he's arguably the foremost authority on these technical issues for paint Email him if you have questions, because he can give you an educated answer. He's written manuals and books on the subject, mostly on the industry level for the automakers, but he can and does break it down into layman's terms.
Cheers fellow Lexi'ers
Oh...and... don't shoot the messenger.
This link contains some of the best technical information on paint, from a company that works with the automobile makers to train people on the dealership level about paint, as well as professional detailers. Their advice and info can be taken as the authority on these issues-they help write the warranty specs for Ford, Daimler/Chrysler and GM, as well as foreign makes. As a pro detailer I was led to this site by the man I mentioned below. I have learned much over the years, and there's more to know still.
The temperature issue is unfortunately important since paint surface temps do exceed 200 degrees in the sun. Dark metallic green actually gets the hottest ( More than black), with the metallic particles on a dark background absorbing the most solar energy.
Please note the center block in that link page contains the aforementioned polymer vs wax fracture points. It IS pertinent IMO (And Autoint's) because when wax fractures, it breaks open and breaks down. Polymers are engineered to flex, and their bond is chemical and not physical like wax.
I take no side here ( I have a polymer on my cars topped with a carnauba) because I like both for different reasons, and one is better than the other at some things, the other better at others. It's all very subjective too, because the things that Ron reports are not necessarily the same results I may see on my car, and vice-versa . For instance, Zaino gives me not the slightest "hazing" on my black Supercoupe. Not trying to be argumentative at all Ron, I truly believe you're seeing that on yours, just a different perspective from my experience. Different paint, different variables etc.
If you like products with natural wax contained therein, the fact is you WILL have to apply it more often, especially in the summer. I personally don't mind, even enjoy it. It really all comes down to what a product does for you and your eyes, because we don't all see things the same way . There's no getting around the science and technical properties of these different products though, and the average Joe will still use what he likes even if the sun/elements break something down in short order. The laws of physics don't change because we prefer one thing over another though. No judgements there, it just IS.
There is a man there at www.autoint.com named Ron Ketcham , he's arguably the foremost authority on these technical issues for paint Email him if you have questions, because he can give you an educated answer. He's written manuals and books on the subject, mostly on the industry level for the automakers, but he can and does break it down into layman's terms.
Cheers fellow Lexi'ers
Oh...and... don't shoot the messenger.
Last edited by Guitarman; 06-13-03 at 09:02 PM.
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