2008 ISF Audio Build
might be very usefull in the future. good luck
01-10-12, 03:48 PM
#32
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
01-10-12, 05:33 PM
#33
Tech Info Resource
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I've wired aircraft for a living and I've got a couple of questions.
1. Why are you soldering wires to a wiring harness and soldering connectors to the wiring? Soldered wiring harnesses died in the 80's on aircraft because they're unreliable. The flux wicks up the wire and eventually stress fractures the wires one strand at a time before it either breaks or starts a fire. All aircraft wiring harnesses use crimped connections for end points and inline splices because it's more reliable and electrically more sound than solder.
2. Did you know you can get all the parts/pieces to plug into the OEM harness? Did you also know you can remove the OEM pins from the connectors with a simple to fabricate tool so you don't have to cut any wires?
3. Why are you running simple insulated wires and not either putting them in the existing condulet or putting them in their own condulet to protect them from chafing?
4. Do you do this for a living?
Sorry, but I spent a very long time doing communications electronics for the Air Force with 6 years working on WC-135B aircraft. I've seen the long term results of installs like this far too many times. It's not at all pretty.
1. Why are you soldering wires to a wiring harness and soldering connectors to the wiring? Soldered wiring harnesses died in the 80's on aircraft because they're unreliable. The flux wicks up the wire and eventually stress fractures the wires one strand at a time before it either breaks or starts a fire. All aircraft wiring harnesses use crimped connections for end points and inline splices because it's more reliable and electrically more sound than solder.
2. Did you know you can get all the parts/pieces to plug into the OEM harness? Did you also know you can remove the OEM pins from the connectors with a simple to fabricate tool so you don't have to cut any wires?
3. Why are you running simple insulated wires and not either putting them in the existing condulet or putting them in their own condulet to protect them from chafing?
4. Do you do this for a living?
Sorry, but I spent a very long time doing communications electronics for the Air Force with 6 years working on WC-135B aircraft. I've seen the long term results of installs like this far too many times. It's not at all pretty.
01-10-12, 05:49 PM
#34
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I've wired aircraft for a living and I've got a couple of questions.
1. Why are you soldering wires to a wiring harness and soldering connectors to the wiring? Soldered wiring harnesses died in the 80's on aircraft because they're unreliable. The flux wicks up the wire and eventually stress fractures the wires one strand at a time before it either breaks or starts a fire. All aircraft wiring harnesses use crimped connections for end points and inline splices because it's more reliable and electrically more sound than solder.
2. Did you know you can get all the parts/pieces to plug into the OEM harness? Did you also know you can remove the OEM pins from the connectors with a simple to fabricate tool so you don't have to cut any wires?
3. Why are you running simple insulated wires and not either putting them in the existing condulet or putting them in their own condulet to protect them from chafing?
4. Do you do this for a living?
Sorry, but I spent a very long time doing communications electronics for the Air Force with 6 years working on WC-135B aircraft. I've seen the long term results of installs like this far too many times. It's not at all pretty.
1. Why are you soldering wires to a wiring harness and soldering connectors to the wiring? Soldered wiring harnesses died in the 80's on aircraft because they're unreliable. The flux wicks up the wire and eventually stress fractures the wires one strand at a time before it either breaks or starts a fire. All aircraft wiring harnesses use crimped connections for end points and inline splices because it's more reliable and electrically more sound than solder.
2. Did you know you can get all the parts/pieces to plug into the OEM harness? Did you also know you can remove the OEM pins from the connectors with a simple to fabricate tool so you don't have to cut any wires?
3. Why are you running simple insulated wires and not either putting them in the existing condulet or putting them in their own condulet to protect them from chafing?
4. Do you do this for a living?
Sorry, but I spent a very long time doing communications electronics for the Air Force with 6 years working on WC-135B aircraft. I've seen the long term results of installs like this far too many times. It's not at all pretty.
First of thank you for your service. My father has been in the Air Force 177th fighter wing for over 38 years. He is now a Master Sargent, he works on the F-16 fighter jets.
1. Solder is a very highly reliable way of making a contact between two pieces of wire has much less resistance than crimp connectors and or t taps. I have been using the solder and marine grade heat shrink method for over 8 years on everything from cars to mikes to home audio and never had one single problem. I use silver core solder which is much less fragile than the other stuff. Plus the marine grade heat shrink helps seal the contact join from the humidity and other things. I will always do this as this is what makes my work stand out from shops. Crimp connectors is just not something I see using as a "shortcut" T taps as well.
2.I know about the tool of removing the pins however this can be complicated considering if he ever wanted to go back, I would be at a guessing game figuring out where which wire went. If I had a actual harness diagram than I would have probably have done that. You may be saying I could have made one, you are correct. But keep in mind I had 2 and a half days to do this. We finished at 12:30 at night on Sunday. Very time consuming and I did not have time to create one.
3, the closer you bring wires even speaker wires into contact of other wires you are creating much larger Electromagnetic interference. At the parts of the car where there was a change of chafing, they were wrapped to protect them, at the doors they were ran through the factory grommet without and problem. As you probably have noticed the 0 gauge was ran through a factory grommet to make sure it was truly protected. I take the upmost care into making sure the wires are ok.
4, This is a hobby, I am a PC Specialist for a health care organization. I run Cat 6 and manage a large array of computers. I also do home audio as a hobby as well.
Thank you for your concern.
01-10-12, 09:41 PM
#35
Tech Info Resource
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I retired as a MSgt. No one serves in the enlisted force for more than 30 years. MSgts TOPCAP at 24, so maybe there's a mistake somewhere.
Solder is illegal for use on aircraft wiring for the reasons I stated above. It is NOT reliable for connecting two pieces of wire. Solder has a higher resistance than crimping. It excels in connecting solid component ends to printed circuit boards where vibration fatigue is not as big an issue as it is in a harness. Take a look at the connections on your car - not one of the harness connectors is soldered - they're all crimped. The OEMs used to crimp and solder the battery terminals. Not any more and not for quite some time.
In 1979 part of my military soldering training was correctly soldering pins in a 108 pin Cannon plug one cup at a time. By 1989 we could not even order a Cannon plug with solder cups because they were all replaced. If you had a failed connector, you had to cut all the wires, crimp new pins on them and install the new connector.
Consider this - a good electrical connection has a little less than 20 milli-ohms resistance. How many watts is this at our 200A home service connection? Our good friend Ohm's Law says I^2*R=W, right? 200^2*0.020= 800W. Why isn't there solder? It would be liquid at full load. This is true for any connection passing more than 20A continuously. The solder will melt.
Really - solder is the perfect technology for welding devices to circuit boards and very short wire interconnects. It is a really bad idea for wiring harnesses and connectors attached directly to wiring harnesses.
More reading on crimping and soldering.
Download this PDF for the USAF bible on electronic equipment maintenance and repair - special note for section 3 - all electronics maintenance personnel are required to be trained in soldering and demonstrate proficiency.
I don't dislike solder at all. I'm pretty good at soldering. It's just not the right technology for a wiring harness.
Solder is illegal for use on aircraft wiring for the reasons I stated above. It is NOT reliable for connecting two pieces of wire. Solder has a higher resistance than crimping. It excels in connecting solid component ends to printed circuit boards where vibration fatigue is not as big an issue as it is in a harness. Take a look at the connections on your car - not one of the harness connectors is soldered - they're all crimped. The OEMs used to crimp and solder the battery terminals. Not any more and not for quite some time.
In 1979 part of my military soldering training was correctly soldering pins in a 108 pin Cannon plug one cup at a time. By 1989 we could not even order a Cannon plug with solder cups because they were all replaced. If you had a failed connector, you had to cut all the wires, crimp new pins on them and install the new connector.
Consider this - a good electrical connection has a little less than 20 milli-ohms resistance. How many watts is this at our 200A home service connection? Our good friend Ohm's Law says I^2*R=W, right? 200^2*0.020= 800W. Why isn't there solder? It would be liquid at full load. This is true for any connection passing more than 20A continuously. The solder will melt.
Really - solder is the perfect technology for welding devices to circuit boards and very short wire interconnects. It is a really bad idea for wiring harnesses and connectors attached directly to wiring harnesses.
More reading on crimping and soldering.
Download this PDF for the USAF bible on electronic equipment maintenance and repair - special note for section 3 - all electronics maintenance personnel are required to be trained in soldering and demonstrate proficiency.
I don't dislike solder at all. I'm pretty good at soldering. It's just not the right technology for a wiring harness.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 01-10-12 at 09:46 PM.
01-11-12, 04:59 AM
#37
Well the solder lecture was completely unnecessary. I don't think the F will be taking off any time soon and since its not your build I'm not sure why you feel the need turn this into a critique.
Your background as a aircraft tech is nice but unnecessary since there are plenty of retired military folks here with previous training (me included) and the local stereo shops aren't going to do much better.
Not many people brave enough to pull a complete ML system out for replacement and go a different direction and I for one am interested in the results so would appreciate if you didn't chase the fairly new members away by grilling them with meaningless details.
If it comes loose or chafes, who cares, take it apart and fix it. Proabably won't cause the car to veer into a mountain and kill 200. If it does you can call me out and say you told me so.
Oh, and TOPCAT didn't always exist and maybe his father is guard which serve longer than typical full enlistments. Lighten up.
Your background as a aircraft tech is nice but unnecessary since there are plenty of retired military folks here with previous training (me included) and the local stereo shops aren't going to do much better.
Not many people brave enough to pull a complete ML system out for replacement and go a different direction and I for one am interested in the results so would appreciate if you didn't chase the fairly new members away by grilling them with meaningless details.
If it comes loose or chafes, who cares, take it apart and fix it. Proabably won't cause the car to veer into a mountain and kill 200. If it does you can call me out and say you told me so.
Oh, and TOPCAT didn't always exist and maybe his father is guard which serve longer than typical full enlistments. Lighten up.
Last edited by clifftrail; 01-12-12 at 04:27 AM.
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inovashn (11-02-22)
01-11-12, 05:31 AM
#38
Registered User
I am a Air Force TSgt with almost 32 years in. Got 8 more to go. And I work full-time. You can stay in the Guard Or Reserve till your 60. So if you joined at 17. Thats 43 years. Or 86 Fight To Fight Tests.
On the soldering. I just replaced a broken Oil Pressure Indicator cannonplug on a F-16 a few weeks ago. Lockheed doesnt have a crimp style connector available. There are a few others still on the plane.
Last edited by MC5Wes; 01-11-12 at 05:34 AM.
01-11-12, 06:39 AM
#39
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Ok got the owner to send me the pics, have some more to come so please be patient!!!
Trimmed the battery terminal cover to allow for the power wire to come out.
Work in progress pics of the power wire wake up wire and so on.
Organizing all the wires, zip tied every 6 inches or so. The two grommets towards the top of the rear seats provide great locations to run wires. NOTE make sure to cover them with some kind ot rubber rap and or shielding.
Labeled all the outputs for the amps as for quick reference.
Battery grounded, made sure there was no resistance for this ground.
Amps installed on new rack
Owner wanted easy access to his bass **** and radar
Wiring up all the power wires!!
Trimmed the battery terminal cover to allow for the power wire to come out.
Work in progress pics of the power wire wake up wire and so on.
Organizing all the wires, zip tied every 6 inches or so. The two grommets towards the top of the rear seats provide great locations to run wires. NOTE make sure to cover them with some kind ot rubber rap and or shielding.
Labeled all the outputs for the amps as for quick reference.
Battery grounded, made sure there was no resistance for this ground.
Amps installed on new rack
Owner wanted easy access to his bass **** and radar
Wiring up all the power wires!!
01-11-12, 08:15 AM
#40
So what I am saying is if you/I wanted to add the sub to the input of the MS8 to be summed it probably would not make any difference in what I have observed/heard. I will verify this in closer inspection when we get together again for fine tuning. Right now there is plenty of real bass for the owner to work with.
Sadly you can not tap the pre inputs of the OEM amp because everything including the bluetooth would be lost as that is all done internally inside them amp, you would also lose the control of volume from the head unit if you did this as all those commands are sent to the OEM amp.
Sadly you can not tap the pre inputs of the OEM amp because everything including the bluetooth would be lost as that is all done internally inside them amp, you would also lose the control of volume from the head unit if you did this as all those commands are sent to the OEM amp.
That is what I was wondering in regards to what you actually heard audio wise when you set your low pass frequency to 60Hz...if your subwoofer box was actually "kicking hard"(for lack of a better term) ---.thanks for the insight.
I asked because I added a sub to my non-ML system when I had my IS350 and grabbed the subwoofer outs from the stock amp , ran that to my line convertor , then preout to my Alpine amp and still got the "semi bassy" sound the factory sub gave me ...even tho I was running a 400W Alpine amp to a 10" custom sub box, with alpine Sub----the factory amp still regulated the frequency content at its output....so it would be low passing at whatever frequency and volume it was set for - which in my opinion Lexus skimps on the bass too much
the ML is no Great sound system---its clear but is really lacking some serious sound---system just doesnt pump!
I would love to hear the system-- to get a reference....but hey again thanks for this thread....I know how to install audio systems as well and being that i have the knowledge of the IS350's how to unsnap and unscrew all this plastic stuff...seeing the ML amp and its connections is a helpful insight.
I plan on getting the harnesses the retired Airforce MstrSgt mentioned above...as the connections for the ML amp are the same Toyota radio connections for the camry system since the mid 80's....This way I dont have to cut any wires...(understood that you had two days to do it so there was no choice but to cut...but ehhh you can always reconnect them).
please update once you fine tune the system to see if the frequency content is there on the bass side of things (below 100Hz) especially at higher volumes. for some reason the higher you put the volume on this system the more it robs the bass--
01-13-12, 06:43 AM
#41
Im wondering how much added weight the dynomat would add. I did half of my build last summer ( Tru technologies amp, bit ten, 12 morel ultimo sc sub, and 3 piece morel elate 6 for the front.) I have another tru amp and 2 piece morel for the rears on the way.
I did a sealed sub facing inside the cabin. if i crank it up and close the doors with the windows up from the outside it sounds factory. i have zero trunk rattle. I have very little rattle on the inside now.
I worry about added weight but I have a joez exhaust and will be adding headers this summer. The joez is loud now and I know the headers will make it louder. Do you think the dynomat will help to seal out some of the outside noise?
I did a sealed sub facing inside the cabin. if i crank it up and close the doors with the windows up from the outside it sounds factory. i have zero trunk rattle. I have very little rattle on the inside now.
I worry about added weight but I have a joez exhaust and will be adding headers this summer. The joez is loud now and I know the headers will make it louder. Do you think the dynomat will help to seal out some of the outside noise?
01-13-12, 08:40 AM
#42
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Im wondering how much added weight the dynomat would add. I did half of my build last summer ( Tru technologies amp, bit ten, 12 morel ultimo sc sub, and 3 piece morel elate 6 for the front.) I have another tru amp and 2 piece morel for the rears on the way.
I did a sealed sub facing inside the cabin. if i crank it up and close the doors with the windows up from the outside it sounds factory. i have zero trunk rattle. I have very little rattle on the inside now.
I worry about added weight but I have a joez exhaust and will be adding headers this summer. The joez is loud now and I know the headers will make it louder. Do you think the dynomat will help to seal out some of the outside noise?
I did a sealed sub facing inside the cabin. if i crank it up and close the doors with the windows up from the outside it sounds factory. i have zero trunk rattle. I have very little rattle on the inside now.
I worry about added weight but I have a joez exhaust and will be adding headers this summer. The joez is loud now and I know the headers will make it louder. Do you think the dynomat will help to seal out some of the outside noise?
Dynamat actually ads mass to your metal so it has less room to vibrate. So it is a yes and no for absorbing sound.
If you really want outside sound to b lowered look into adding a layer of this. Luxury Liner Pro
http://secondskinaudio.com/products/...Insulation.php
01-13-12, 09:04 AM
#43
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If you ever want to hear it, I'm in NYC bro. The system still needs to be tuned and I want to go back and do some more Dynamat and possibly other sound-deadening solutions. We're scheduling to tune the system some time in February so just hit me up. 
01-13-12, 09:06 AM
#44
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01-13-12, 07:58 PM
#45
Tech Info Resource
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If you really want to talk sound deadening, talk to this guy:
http://www.raamaudio.com/
Rick is pretty incredible when it comes to this stuff. Tell him lo bux racer from YSTC sent you...
http://www.raamaudio.com/
Rick is pretty incredible when it comes to this stuff. Tell him lo bux racer from YSTC sent you...