2jzGTE SCs - The Siblings of my Supra MKIV Toys
11-03-16, 02:07 PM
#3781
http://realstreetperformance.com/Sho...Your-Block_30/
That's the "Build a 2JZGE Block" section on Real St. site. You'll notice all the pistons actually say GTE. Same pistons, so just gotta watch out for those CR values, they are deceiving when dealing with a GE
Yes you are correct that the GE head has a recess (0.030" on a virgin head). That might alter the head volume a hair, That recess only adds a tiny amount of volume on the edges there where the recess is. According to that thread on SF, doesn't seem like they noticed that big of a volume increase from that recess.
Their is a difference between the recess and a thicker HG in my mind. I don't know if I can put how I see it in my head, into words very well, but I'll try. In that SF thread, he states the GE chamber looks just like a GTE chamber, but with a 0.030 recess machined into it. So there may be a very small amount of added volume only where that recess is machined (along the edges). Where *** a thicker HG would be not like machining into the head, but more like adding material to the bottom of the head. So you have increased volume over the entire circle, not just over the edges where the machining was done. Can't think of a good analogy, and not sure if that makes sense to you, but that's about the best way I can think of explaining it. In all the measurements I can find, the end volume between the non-VVTi GE and GTE are extremely similar, recess or no recess.
The recess definitely comes into play when determining ideal quench.
That's the "Build a 2JZGE Block" section on Real St. site. You'll notice all the pistons actually say GTE. Same pistons, so just gotta watch out for those CR values, they are deceiving when dealing with a GE
Yes you are correct that the GE head has a recess (0.030" on a virgin head). That might alter the head volume a hair, That recess only adds a tiny amount of volume on the edges there where the recess is. According to that thread on SF, doesn't seem like they noticed that big of a volume increase from that recess.
Their is a difference between the recess and a thicker HG in my mind. I don't know if I can put how I see it in my head, into words very well, but I'll try. In that SF thread, he states the GE chamber looks just like a GTE chamber, but with a 0.030 recess machined into it. So there may be a very small amount of added volume only where that recess is machined (along the edges). Where *** a thicker HG would be not like machining into the head, but more like adding material to the bottom of the head. So you have increased volume over the entire circle, not just over the edges where the machining was done. Can't think of a good analogy, and not sure if that makes sense to you, but that's about the best way I can think of explaining it. In all the measurements I can find, the end volume between the non-VVTi GE and GTE are extremely similar, recess or no recess.
The recess definitely comes into play when determining ideal quench.
11-03-16, 05:31 PM
#3782
Well something new I learn ..... That is where we don't have the same premise which spells my misunderstanding. Your Manley Pistons are GTE Pistons. I was expecting GE pistons since we are talking about a GE motor. Exactly why I said in my previous post "when you get a piston for a particular motor" which in this case the 2JZGE motor. I always thought there were specific pistons available for the GE since the heads are different.
Dang , I would need to read more about GE stuff
. This will be my first GE toy so I want to make sure I get things right. I want to keep the 10.5:1 compression on the vvti since it will be mostly corn juice powering it during summer and flex fuel during winter.
I have tons of GE pistons and GTE pistons around but am not really interested with knowing anything about stock vvti parts since I am going CP Pistons,Carillo H-Beam HD Rods and Billet Mains for the NA-T so we can forget about the comparison of stock parts on my end. It will be just a waste of money sending them over. What I want to make sure is I get the right Pistons to keep the 10:5:1 compression on this project .
Dang , I would need to read more about GE stuff
. This will be my first GE toy so I want to make sure I get things right. I want to keep the 10.5:1 compression on the vvti since it will be mostly corn juice powering it during summer and flex fuel during winter.I have tons of GE pistons and GTE pistons around but am not really interested with knowing anything about stock vvti parts since I am going CP Pistons,Carillo H-Beam HD Rods and Billet Mains for the NA-T so we can forget about the comparison of stock parts on my end. It will be just a waste of money sending them over. What I want to make sure is I get the right Pistons to keep the 10:5:1 compression on this project .
OK I'm rambling. I've just spent the last few months researching all of this, so I could come to an educated decision. I'm far from an expert, and you've been at this far longer than I, but if u care to know anything regarding what ive figured out over the last few months of what's out there today for options, I'm more than happy to share my opinions.
good luck on the build. love to see more vvti setups being pushed out there, especially GE vvti setups.
Last edited by Halon; 11-03-16 at 05:35 PM.
11-04-16, 02:59 AM
#3783
Yeah ... at least now it is clear to me . There seems to not have specific aftermarket 2JZGE pistons which spells all the difference in my understanding and that changes the whole computation. Been through all those SF quench / compression discussions a long time ago so am fully aware of those computations. So that is what have been throwing me off all along.... got to work with GTE pistons due to non existent aftermarket GE pistons . Always something new to learn.
I have read through Geo's many build threads and Mark's threads some time back. It is just that I will go with what has always worked with me on my cars and many others , CP Pistons. After all their prices are not that much different. So I will stick with the more proven option by many. The Manley H Tuff rods will be good for your power goals. If I have to use Manley , they have to be the I-Tuff with the +625 bolts but again I will go with what I have personally proven , the Carillo H-Beam HD rods with ProCarr Bolts since their prices are only slightly higher than the Manley I-Tuff / +625 . I read that the XD version of RealstreetPerf only costs $200 more than their HD which may even be better.
Will appreciate if you will able to provide everyone the head measurement of the GE VVTi, That will be very informative for everyone . The choice of parts always depend on your end goal. One do not have to use always the most expensive. It should be whatever that will comfortably and reliably support your goal. On my end , I love to overdo my engine internals so I have plenty of room to grow or not have to worry about it if I decide to up it a notch... which we always find ourselves in.
Having never built a GE before , will surely ask for more clarifications if I have to from you NA-T guys. I surely want to do this thing right the first time. Now that Red Mamba One long block is gone , I have more reason to do an over the top NA-T as a replacement.... a MK4KILR , lmaol.
I have read through Geo's many build threads and Mark's threads some time back. It is just that I will go with what has always worked with me on my cars and many others , CP Pistons. After all their prices are not that much different. So I will stick with the more proven option by many. The Manley H Tuff rods will be good for your power goals. If I have to use Manley , they have to be the I-Tuff with the +625 bolts but again I will go with what I have personally proven , the Carillo H-Beam HD rods with ProCarr Bolts since their prices are only slightly higher than the Manley I-Tuff / +625 . I read that the XD version of RealstreetPerf only costs $200 more than their HD which may even be better.
Will appreciate if you will able to provide everyone the head measurement of the GE VVTi, That will be very informative for everyone . The choice of parts always depend on your end goal. One do not have to use always the most expensive. It should be whatever that will comfortably and reliably support your goal. On my end , I love to overdo my engine internals so I have plenty of room to grow or not have to worry about it if I decide to up it a notch... which we always find ourselves in.
Having never built a GE before , will surely ask for more clarifications if I have to from you NA-T guys. I surely want to do this thing right the first time. Now that Red Mamba One long block is gone , I have more reason to do an over the top NA-T as a replacement.... a MK4KILR , lmaol.
11-04-16, 09:43 AM
#3784
Awesome, this na-t build is going to be epic!!
Don't forget to throw that vvti crank timing gear/crank sensor on the non-vvti motor.
So with E85, is there a point where a tuner would say that there is too much compression... like would 11:1 be unreasonable?
the ge vvti is 10.5:1 but since you are rebuilding it maybe you might want to take it a hair further... it may not like pump gas as much, but the corn might like it.
Don't forget to throw that vvti crank timing gear/crank sensor on the non-vvti motor.
So with E85, is there a point where a tuner would say that there is too much compression... like would 11:1 be unreasonable?
the ge vvti is 10.5:1 but since you are rebuilding it maybe you might want to take it a hair further... it may not like pump gas as much, but the corn might like it.
11-04-16, 10:04 AM
#3785
Awesome, this na-t build is going to be epic!!
Don't forget to throw that vvti crank timing gear/crank sensor on the non-vvti motor.
So with E85, is there a point where a tuner would say that there is too much compression... like would 11:1 be unreasonable?
the ge vvti is 10.5:1 but since you are rebuilding it maybe you might want to take it a hair further... it may not like pump gas as much, but the corn might like it.
Don't forget to throw that vvti crank timing gear/crank sensor on the non-vvti motor.
So with E85, is there a point where a tuner would say that there is too much compression... like would 11:1 be unreasonable?
the ge vvti is 10.5:1 but since you are rebuilding it maybe you might want to take it a hair further... it may not like pump gas as much, but the corn might like it.
So the 2jz gurus that I have talked to are consistently saying 10 - 10.5 is the sweet spot for e-fuel on these motors.
11-04-16, 11:12 AM
#3786
I wonder though if they are just playing it safe cause not many people have done it... if the fuel can take it without detonating it seems like it would be reasonable to go with 11:1
I have read about setups all the way up to 12:1, it seems the main issue is they can no longer run pump gas. I guess the extra bit of power might not be worth loosing the ability to run pump when you run out of e85 in the middle of nowhere... but I would think with 11:1 you could pull enough timing and boost to make it driveable on pump still. I guess 10.5 is more than enough for a high compression setup, its a problem I have all these things just swirl around in my head
I have read about setups all the way up to 12:1, it seems the main issue is they can no longer run pump gas. I guess the extra bit of power might not be worth loosing the ability to run pump when you run out of e85 in the middle of nowhere... but I would think with 11:1 you could pull enough timing and boost to make it driveable on pump still. I guess 10.5 is more than enough for a high compression setup, its a problem I have all these things just swirl around in my head
11-04-16, 11:44 AM
#3787
Yeah I guess I can't say.
To me, anything 10+ CR I personally consider pretty high compression. So even being at 10.0 is pretty sweet to me. I live in Minnesota where we have 4 full seasons. The pump e85 mixture changes a good bit between seasons which can be anywhere from -20* to 100* outside. Sometimes people measure e60 at pumps sometimes. So for me, I don't want such high compression that it creates a very narrow tuning band, which is compounded when you really have no idea what the ethanol content is coming out of the pump. My stock motor is 10:1 now which works fine for me. So my new setup being right around the same I feel is good for me.
Only thing I can say is if you want to run higher, either go for it and see how it works. Or start hitting up some of the folks with a lot of experience. I talked with both Real Street and Vlad, both of which I hold in pretty high regards. So I just listened to their advice and went with it.
To me, anything 10+ CR I personally consider pretty high compression. So even being at 10.0 is pretty sweet to me. I live in Minnesota where we have 4 full seasons. The pump e85 mixture changes a good bit between seasons which can be anywhere from -20* to 100* outside. Sometimes people measure e60 at pumps sometimes. So for me, I don't want such high compression that it creates a very narrow tuning band, which is compounded when you really have no idea what the ethanol content is coming out of the pump. My stock motor is 10:1 now which works fine for me. So my new setup being right around the same I feel is good for me.
Only thing I can say is if you want to run higher, either go for it and see how it works. Or start hitting up some of the folks with a lot of experience. I talked with both Real Street and Vlad, both of which I hold in pretty high regards. So I just listened to their advice and went with it.
11-04-16, 02:04 PM
#3788
Yeah I definitely get what you are saying, 10-10.5 is a pretty nice ratio to go with all around. With 11 the margin is lower and you would have to run a sensor to determine ethanol content to be safe, prob not worth the trouble. excited to see what you guys come up with 
11-04-16, 03:08 PM
#3789
Most standalones now and days read the ethanol levels and canbus from feedback off the flex fuel sensor. Which is something I believe your going to use if your planing on pumping pump gas occasionally. And even then pump gas should be a limp mode setting in my opinion why would you want to risk detonating on pump?
11-05-16, 08:45 AM
#3791
My whole concern on a high HP NA-T is using a GE head gasket . My readings point me that for higher RPMs, elevated boost pressure , elevated combustion pressures and elevated temperatures especially when you use nitrous , an MLS (multi-layer) head gasket like the GTE gasket is preferred. You can use a thinner gasket with o-ring on the head or block. Is it because , the combustion fire ring on the gasket is thicker on the GTE gasket thus holding the pressure and heat within each cylinder better and harder to break compared to the flimpsy GE gasket ? I don't know that is why am looking for 2JZ setups that are +1000rwhp to disprove it. Experience is always the best teacher for me. The disadvantage is the squish becomes 0.085" when you use a GE head and a GTE head gasket. And most if not all what I have read with regards those making +900rwhp 2JZ with a GE head has a GTE gasket even with 0.085" squish/quench. So that tells me , even without an optimal squish, it all boils down to the tune.
I haven't seen or read any of the big boys in the 2JZ world using a GE head gasket ... am talking about people making well over +1000rwhp . If anyone knows one , would appreciate to mention it here so I can do more research about his or their setup ! I want to do this thing right
. Most high hp 2jzGE short block I have read so far and even DaveH , a well known NA-T guy using stock bottom ends, seems to be using GTE or thicker head gaskets.
The higher you go in compression , the less forgiveable is your setup... meaning very little room for error before your setup goes kaboom ! A real good tuner would be your best friend with turbo charged high compression setups. I always read that if you are still using your car with pump gas then going 9-9.5:1 compression is the best to take advantage of E85 when available. But when you are on E85 most of the time , then 9.5-10.5 will be best. A flex fuel sensor with a good standalone is a must with a car using E85 and pump 93 so you can have full control. I love the way my proEFI ECUs control flex fueling on my cars.
I haven't seen or read any of the big boys in the 2JZ world using a GE head gasket ... am talking about people making well over +1000rwhp . If anyone knows one , would appreciate to mention it here so I can do more research about his or their setup ! I want to do this thing right
. Most high hp 2jzGE short block I have read so far and even DaveH , a well known NA-T guy using stock bottom ends, seems to be using GTE or thicker head gaskets.Awesome, this na-t build is going to be epic!!
Don't forget to throw that vvti crank timing gear/crank sensor on the non-vvti motor.
So with E85, is there a point where a tuner would say that there is too much compression... like would 11:1 be unreasonable?
the ge vvti is 10.5:1 but since you are rebuilding it maybe you might want to take it a hair further... it may not like pump gas as much, but the corn might like it.
Don't forget to throw that vvti crank timing gear/crank sensor on the non-vvti motor.
So with E85, is there a point where a tuner would say that there is too much compression... like would 11:1 be unreasonable?
the ge vvti is 10.5:1 but since you are rebuilding it maybe you might want to take it a hair further... it may not like pump gas as much, but the corn might like it.
I wonder though if they are just playing it safe cause not many people have done it... if the fuel can take it without detonating it seems like it would be reasonable to go with 11:1
I have read about setups all the way up to 12:1, it seems the main issue is they can no longer run pump gas. I guess the extra bit of power might not be worth loosing the ability to run pump when you run out of e85 in the middle of nowhere... but I would think with 11:1 you could pull enough timing and boost to make it driveable on pump still. I guess 10.5 is more than enough for a high compression setup, its a problem I have all these things just swirl around in my head
I have read about setups all the way up to 12:1, it seems the main issue is they can no longer run pump gas. I guess the extra bit of power might not be worth loosing the ability to run pump when you run out of e85 in the middle of nowhere... but I would think with 11:1 you could pull enough timing and boost to make it driveable on pump still. I guess 10.5 is more than enough for a high compression setup, its a problem I have all these things just swirl around in my head
Last edited by gerrb; 11-07-16 at 04:46 AM.
11-07-16, 09:09 AM
#3792
I'm using 8.5.1 compression pistons with a .027" MLS head gasket with our GE head. This brings the compression somewhere near the 9.5 range believe.
Here's my setup: Billet mains, Corrilo HD rods with Carr bolts, Weisco Pistons 625+ head studs. Cometic .027" GSC valve train with s3 cams, race ported GE head.
http://www.cometic.com/i-24766627-to...html%3Fq%3D2jz
Here's my setup: Billet mains, Corrilo HD rods with Carr bolts, Weisco Pistons 625+ head studs. Cometic .027" GSC valve train with s3 cams, race ported GE head.
http://www.cometic.com/i-24766627-to...html%3Fq%3D2jz
11-07-16, 09:31 AM
#3793
I was eyeing that Cometic .027 HG as a possible option for if/when my head gets decked to the point that I no longer feel comfortable with the GE head gasket. Would still allow for good quench, without reducing CR as much as an OEM TT gasket.
Hard to find any reviews though as hardly anyone runs them. I used to run a cometic in my DSM years ago. How's it holding for you?
Hard to find any reviews though as hardly anyone runs them. I used to run a cometic in my DSM years ago. How's it holding for you?
11-07-16, 12:26 PM
#3794
I'm using 8.5.1 compression pistons with a .027" MLS head gasket with our GE head. This brings the compression somewhere near the 9.5 range believe.
Here's my setup: Billet mains, Corrilo HD rods with Carr bolts, Weisco Pistons 625+ head studs. Cometic .027" GSC valve train with s3 cams, race ported GE head.
Here's my setup: Billet mains, Corrilo HD rods with Carr bolts, Weisco Pistons 625+ head studs. Cometic .027" GSC valve train with s3 cams, race ported GE head.
Looks like I will go for the .085" squish (will loose around 3-5hp I read if it is not an optimal squish) but it will at least give me better peace of mind knowing that it will hold up to a lot of heat and pressure .