U4's 6MT OMGWTFBBQ Thuild Bread Episode III: Return of the Stiff
09-21-21, 06:55 AM
#61
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Can't put a number of what my efforts do to a EJ** head, but the owners love getting boost sooner, and those engines really wake up with some low-lift flow increases. I'm not positive, but from how they talk, it seems the ported heads on the market for their engine don't maintain enough port velocity and the engines become peaky. When I do final delivery, I tell each customer, "Here. Now you can stay on the safer side of the 6 on your tach". Dude that got me into this gig is currently running a PTE 5530 on a 2.5L block and runs low 11's, high 10's out at Bandimere, so he started with a 200hp engine and is getting about 500 horsepower's worth of work out of it...that ain't nothing...
I have no reason to believe 3 and 4 GR heads can't interchange. After Head Games is bolted onto the 4GR block and in the car, I'll be finding out for sure.
I have no reason to believe 3 and 4 GR heads can't interchange. After Head Games is bolted onto the 4GR block and in the car, I'll be finding out for sure.
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2013FSport (09-21-21)
09-28-21, 05:48 AM
#63
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Yeah, I used to oogle Ray Hall's creation a lot back in the day. If it weren't for him, you'd have me stuck on tryna get a 4.0L 1GR 2IS, but the flywheel to crank patterns are different.
07-27-22, 12:05 PM
#64
Intermediate
Thread Starter
So, unsurprisingly, since I last posted I created some subie enemies, one of which spent an awful lot of money buying the absolute best, most aggressive valve and port job I'm willing to put on both EJ and FA cylinder heads, then putting them on a Saenz flowbench to prove to their customers that my heads don't flow as much, even though I never claimed that anything I did outflowed anything aside from .200" to .300", which their test more or less proved me right on. I way outflowed them at .2 on both, which is what I care about. Yeah, they got like 25+% more peak, but my numbers never dropped out to max tested lift, which shows my port is stable, while they had one dip way past where a valve would be lifted, showing turbulence somewhere.
I was sent multiple messages not to use their test to market my heads, which, cool, they didn't actually name who their competitor's head is on their site, anyway...considering I already have one legal team birddogging me with bots, I think I'ma stop poking that bear and let him have the trashcan.
It really, really got me motivated to get back on this project though, because that FA20 head kind of violated some of the rules I normally set out for myself and it outright screamed. Literally, I bet it was loud as a banshee on that flowbench. Specifically, in search of some more area to make a bowl for the seat to feed from, I entered where I would call the roof of the port, edging away at the throat, giving me what I assumed was greater than the 90% seat-throat relationship I've always aimed for. That's one of the things I did on the Head Games heads when I was dyeing everything I own neon green trying to measure port volumes on both HG and stock heads. My first CC measurements were taken with just tap water, and I had leaks at the seat and stem from foreign objects (uncleaned/unground carbon on the unmodified valves, and--I think--lapping compound in the guide...wanna replace those guides, regardless.), but because my timing was mostly consistent, I was getting mostly consistent results...let a port sit while I took a leak or got some more coffee and the port would shrink somehow. Once I added the dye, there was about 5 minutes of "oh, no way, this idea is working!" before the UV dye was covering everything in my life for weeks. Lesson learned there, but before I learned it I thought I needed to balance the ports out and I did so in that roof/throat junction area modern DI heads have, concluding I'd more than likely trashed them by over-grinding the throat dimension when I saw the seat and stem show dye seeping ever so slightly past them. That FA head kinda proved to me that the straight-in roof most modern ports have is still inferior to a port that the seat has volume to feed from, specifically in the low- to mid-lift transition area, the area I focus almost exclusively on. I thought I was putting a hook in the flow that was going to cause turbulence, completely forgetting how the aero of pickup trucks works...now if that hook builds carbon up and negates itself with time like the factory tumble cuts on the 4GR do, I won't know until I, I dunno, try it out on a live engine.
If you're still with me, good for you. I busted open an old 20gb HDD and gave the intake ports of Head Games the magnet test to see if I was coming close to water anywhere and it seems I'm way good. Might still have some magnet pieces in both of them, so that might have been a bad idea.
I'm finally building myself an actual bench dedicated to grinding now that I'm in that amateur transition area where I'm not spending time to save money on some things. After that I'll be building those 4GR grinding fixtures I said I needed to make 4 years ago...from there, this project's back off to the races. Now that I know 46 and 50 degree seats with consistent sub-15 degree transitions won't destabilize or otherwise have problems in such an application, I can get back to the pile of parts I stare at every morning. Tired of this asymmetric port nonsense
Just a random aside: I'm really surprised more pushrod V8 head porters don't do Subie and Porsche heads...the ports and flow characteristics are a lot more alike than I initially thought--if not much smaller than a SBC or Gen 2 Hemi--considering factory valve angles and port approaches were so unforgiving in the '60s and '70s. Anyway, battery looks charged, back to grinding adhesive off the bottom of my bench surface. More free trash to treasure.
I was sent multiple messages not to use their test to market my heads, which, cool, they didn't actually name who their competitor's head is on their site, anyway...considering I already have one legal team birddogging me with bots, I think I'ma stop poking that bear and let him have the trashcan.
It really, really got me motivated to get back on this project though, because that FA20 head kind of violated some of the rules I normally set out for myself and it outright screamed. Literally, I bet it was loud as a banshee on that flowbench. Specifically, in search of some more area to make a bowl for the seat to feed from, I entered where I would call the roof of the port, edging away at the throat, giving me what I assumed was greater than the 90% seat-throat relationship I've always aimed for. That's one of the things I did on the Head Games heads when I was dyeing everything I own neon green trying to measure port volumes on both HG and stock heads. My first CC measurements were taken with just tap water, and I had leaks at the seat and stem from foreign objects (uncleaned/unground carbon on the unmodified valves, and--I think--lapping compound in the guide...wanna replace those guides, regardless.), but because my timing was mostly consistent, I was getting mostly consistent results...let a port sit while I took a leak or got some more coffee and the port would shrink somehow. Once I added the dye, there was about 5 minutes of "oh, no way, this idea is working!" before the UV dye was covering everything in my life for weeks. Lesson learned there, but before I learned it I thought I needed to balance the ports out and I did so in that roof/throat junction area modern DI heads have, concluding I'd more than likely trashed them by over-grinding the throat dimension when I saw the seat and stem show dye seeping ever so slightly past them. That FA head kinda proved to me that the straight-in roof most modern ports have is still inferior to a port that the seat has volume to feed from, specifically in the low- to mid-lift transition area, the area I focus almost exclusively on. I thought I was putting a hook in the flow that was going to cause turbulence, completely forgetting how the aero of pickup trucks works...now if that hook builds carbon up and negates itself with time like the factory tumble cuts on the 4GR do, I won't know until I, I dunno, try it out on a live engine.
If you're still with me, good for you. I busted open an old 20gb HDD and gave the intake ports of Head Games the magnet test to see if I was coming close to water anywhere and it seems I'm way good. Might still have some magnet pieces in both of them, so that might have been a bad idea.
I'm finally building myself an actual bench dedicated to grinding now that I'm in that amateur transition area where I'm not spending time to save money on some things. After that I'll be building those 4GR grinding fixtures I said I needed to make 4 years ago...from there, this project's back off to the races. Now that I know 46 and 50 degree seats with consistent sub-15 degree transitions won't destabilize or otherwise have problems in such an application, I can get back to the pile of parts I stare at every morning. Tired of this asymmetric port nonsense
Just a random aside: I'm really surprised more pushrod V8 head porters don't do Subie and Porsche heads...the ports and flow characteristics are a lot more alike than I initially thought--if not much smaller than a SBC or Gen 2 Hemi--considering factory valve angles and port approaches were so unforgiving in the '60s and '70s. Anyway, battery looks charged, back to grinding adhesive off the bottom of my bench surface. More free trash to treasure.
07-27-22, 06:21 PM
#65
So, what is the probability of ported 4GR heads to your 3GR engine? Or are you thinking bone yard 3GR heads to 3GR shortblock? IDR if the heads, gaskets, or displacement make the 3GR C/R what it is?
If the cams weren't so stupid expensive, a port job and cams on the 3GR should wake up a N/A engine.
Aka the shocker! lol
If the cams weren't so stupid expensive, a port job and cams on the 3GR should wake up a N/A engine.
Aka the shocker! lol
07-28-22, 05:32 AM
#66
Intermediate
Thread Starter
My plan for the 3GR is to attempt to get it to produce 300 wheel, that plan includes me working the 3.0L heads while the 2.5L's in the car again. Since I haven't seen any 3GR heads off the engine, I'm just assuming they're somehow unique from the 4GR heads until I pop them off and discover otherwise. Regardless, both mills are getting MWR cams now that I know MWR'll take 4GR cores. Yeah, $250 a stick is fairly steep, but the two places I talked to about custom grinds wanted nothing to do with the fuel pump eccentric or the vvt stuff at the snout...they both seemed to be fairly "anti-tuner" as well, but I coulda read that wrong.
My current thought process is Stage 1 sticks in the 3 and stage 2 with springs and retainers for the 2.5. The 3 is the engine we're keeping, I'm just developing the 2.5 to see how it goes, since that's what's predominantly in people's cars and in junkyards. My assumption is that someone is buying up every 2GR-FSE head that hits ebay for under $500, else I'd have a set of those cams years ago.
The 3GR's CR of 11.5:1 is determined by the piston crown. Potentially the chamber, but that's less likely, as it'd complicate manufacture.
My current thought process is Stage 1 sticks in the 3 and stage 2 with springs and retainers for the 2.5. The 3 is the engine we're keeping, I'm just developing the 2.5 to see how it goes, since that's what's predominantly in people's cars and in junkyards. My assumption is that someone is buying up every 2GR-FSE head that hits ebay for under $500, else I'd have a set of those cams years ago.
The 3GR's CR of 11.5:1 is determined by the piston crown. Potentially the chamber, but that's less likely, as it'd complicate manufacture.
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2013FSport (07-28-22)
07-28-22, 11:11 AM
#67
You have any concerns about running used rockers on these reground bumpsticks or will they be getting new followers? That seems like the only high risk thing aside from casting flaws making unwanted fluid/air couplings.
Next up is if you hit your target, can you fuel it properly?
Next up is if you hit your target, can you fuel it properly?
07-28-22, 01:51 PM
#68
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Parts failures are part of the game, but I don't have any reason to have any concerns with valvetrain stability, so long as I keep it on the tach face. The whole point of this venture is to work with stock ECU parameters, though, which is why I'm not going full stage 3 for both on the first try.
I'm pretty sure it was PAVGR among a few others on here that have found the fueling limit of the flat-spray injectors is right at about 300whp, so my goal is to add air until problems arise or I run out of fuel. My reasoning with the 3GR getting the small sticks is that--if it were a 12-injector and identical other than displacement--2GR-FSE sticks would ostensibly produce the same amount of horsepower, just with less bottom-end torque and peak power would come at a higher RPM(see: dozens of magazine dyno tests on 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0 and 6.2 LS engines using the same camshaft); since the 3GR has less fuel and air doodads in it's way, it'll start shifting usable torque higher up as the cams get bigger, and I'd like to not jump off the cliff of diminishing returns right off the bat. The 4GR is going to need all the help it can get, so I have a whole separate 6MT ecu and all associated sensors/key fobs to ostensibly wire up a barebone starting stand using the JDM wires/connectors in my shed so I can hand it off to my subie tuning buddy to play with, with my stated goal to him being "I paid for a car with an eight thousand RPM tachometer, I want a car that can USE an eight thousand RPM tachometer!", only semi-jokingly.
After which they (it's a set of bros, one does VAG, other does subaru) insisted I watch Initial D, which I did in 5 days--skipping through all the non-car scenes--and now I kind of want to amp up the little 2.5L to roughly the same BMEP as that 4AGE, since they share stroke, the 4GR has 2mm more bore, and the cam phasing of the 4GR should offer more midrange torque than that panda Trueno could have dreamed of. If nothing else, I bet the induction noise would be worth the venture...if I'm guessing my math right, the 4GR will have the same number of intake pulses per second at 7333rpm as you hear from that 4AGE at peak, though both guessing and math are weaknesses of mine...
I'm pretty sure it was PAVGR among a few others on here that have found the fueling limit of the flat-spray injectors is right at about 300whp, so my goal is to add air until problems arise or I run out of fuel. My reasoning with the 3GR getting the small sticks is that--if it were a 12-injector and identical other than displacement--2GR-FSE sticks would ostensibly produce the same amount of horsepower, just with less bottom-end torque and peak power would come at a higher RPM(see: dozens of magazine dyno tests on 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0 and 6.2 LS engines using the same camshaft); since the 3GR has less fuel and air doodads in it's way, it'll start shifting usable torque higher up as the cams get bigger, and I'd like to not jump off the cliff of diminishing returns right off the bat. The 4GR is going to need all the help it can get, so I have a whole separate 6MT ecu and all associated sensors/key fobs to ostensibly wire up a barebone starting stand using the JDM wires/connectors in my shed so I can hand it off to my subie tuning buddy to play with, with my stated goal to him being "I paid for a car with an eight thousand RPM tachometer, I want a car that can USE an eight thousand RPM tachometer!", only semi-jokingly.
After which they (it's a set of bros, one does VAG, other does subaru) insisted I watch Initial D, which I did in 5 days--skipping through all the non-car scenes--and now I kind of want to amp up the little 2.5L to roughly the same BMEP as that 4AGE, since they share stroke, the 4GR has 2mm more bore, and the cam phasing of the 4GR should offer more midrange torque than that panda Trueno could have dreamed of. If nothing else, I bet the induction noise would be worth the venture...if I'm guessing my math right, the 4GR will have the same number of intake pulses per second at 7333rpm as you hear from that 4AGE at peak, though both guessing and math are weaknesses of mine...
Last edited by Ultra4; 07-28-22 at 01:56 PM.
07-28-22, 02:03 PM
#69
Was thinking more in terms of the cam contact patch being a mismatch for the rollers. I mean, they should be fine, but then you get into higher pressures on used roller bearings and hardened surfaces facing off against a new different hardened surface.
You'll know what it thinks about it after the first oil change.
You'll know what it thinks about it after the first oil change.
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Ultra4 (07-28-22)
07-28-22, 02:21 PM
#70
Intermediate
Thread Starter
IIRC, all the steel bearings should be 52100 steel, while the shaft lobes are just polished iron. Might be alloyed enough to class as steel, but the things are still cast and cut, they don't look crazy like Powertech 4.7L H.O cams do, which are cast or sintered into the steel lobes, FWIW.
Everything else is just slightly off it's stock geometry, rubbing on stock parts.
Everything else is just slightly off it's stock geometry, rubbing on stock parts.
11-01-22, 09:38 AM
#71
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Alright, so I have three sets of what the kids would call "stage 1" heads floating around out there in the wild and I'm only in contact with one of them, of which I have dim hopes for now...
The grinding work that I did was to smooth out the oil drain transitions, open the intake ports up with a flapper until the casting imperfections were gone, and removed the shelf and intake vane/valve shadow from the seat/roof area. Port finish was left at 120 to 240 grit, with the high-speed transitions getting 240'd, since they're fairly easy to do. Honestly, if I went super aggressive, I can do all that work in a day. Assembly's still a bit of a time eater for me, but that's just a matter of heuristics. All 3 were sold for $1500, with a complete gasket kit, TTY head bolts and a verbal agreement that I'd show up with tools wherever the car was to help with install, and that they would at least do a post-install dyno run...none of them seem to believe in pre-install baseline runs.
First set went to a RWD automatic. I was under the impression that he was installing them on a car with no existing problems, but after his "mechanic" blamed my port work for the codes on startup and--I guess--reinstalled the factory heads, only to get the exact same codes and blaming my port work for "throwing the computer calibrations off", the kid tells me he went into the install with the same evap/vac leaks and emissions codes I was blamed for. TLDR: neither customer nor his mechanic understand the platform--or internal combustion engines--enough to modify it. I'm guessing those heads went to the scrap pile behind his shop; kid blames me, despite never taking me up on dozens--possibly hundreds--of offers to do the work myself for free. Even offered to pick his car up from the shop and do the work in my race trailer, though in retrospect, that'd have been a logistical catastrophe for me, since that's where the dozen or so "paused" projects reside.
Second set went to an immaculate '14+ AWD in that beautiful blue (it still made his garage smell like new car), dude told me he was doing the swap in his garage, he'd previously done similar work with Ford Modulars but would call if he needed an extra set of hands, and lives right down the street from the dyno my subie buddy runs...sweet, no excuses. 3 weeks after I drop off the heads, he tells me he's moving to Utah for a cult. Or a college. Maybe it was a church...they're all the same to me. Regardless, he's too far away for me to help now and is still moving into a new house, with my luck he's gonna have a kid and sell that specimen of a car.
Third set got delivered on September 25th, been a one-sided text conversation since.
I have five sets of unground heads on-hand right now. I need guinea pigs. If admin staff would allow it, my perfect scenario would be to operate this experiment here in the open with only personal contact info being shared via PM (for the obvious reasons), everything else being transparent. My perfect test subject would already have a baseline dyno run with the mods they currently have on the car, and the car is currently running with no CEL light or any other issues (can't believe I have to specify that). Unless it's verboten, I'd like to get $500, after which I'd ship you a a set of heads (no gaskets, just assembled heads) in a reusable container that--after install--you can ship me your old heads and get $250 back. The way I see it, you're paying me $250 in labor, getting a free set of experimental heads, and getting above-market for your cores. If you insist on being a capitalist about it, you can say my labor's the free part...I don't actually care about the semantics, I just want to see how much power these mills make when you give them more air, and my wife--the rational one in this house--still doesn't like me wrenching on her car after the last time took 3 months.
Any thoughts on the subject are welcome.
Oh, and if someone wants me to work on a 2GR set, I'ma need to run a cores-first type of operation, where you'll have to send me a set of cores before I can do anything for you. 4GR heads are still fairly low demand, but 2GR have never been reasonable.
The grinding work that I did was to smooth out the oil drain transitions, open the intake ports up with a flapper until the casting imperfections were gone, and removed the shelf and intake vane/valve shadow from the seat/roof area. Port finish was left at 120 to 240 grit, with the high-speed transitions getting 240'd, since they're fairly easy to do. Honestly, if I went super aggressive, I can do all that work in a day. Assembly's still a bit of a time eater for me, but that's just a matter of heuristics. All 3 were sold for $1500, with a complete gasket kit, TTY head bolts and a verbal agreement that I'd show up with tools wherever the car was to help with install, and that they would at least do a post-install dyno run...none of them seem to believe in pre-install baseline runs.
First set went to a RWD automatic. I was under the impression that he was installing them on a car with no existing problems, but after his "mechanic" blamed my port work for the codes on startup and--I guess--reinstalled the factory heads, only to get the exact same codes and blaming my port work for "throwing the computer calibrations off", the kid tells me he went into the install with the same evap/vac leaks and emissions codes I was blamed for. TLDR: neither customer nor his mechanic understand the platform--or internal combustion engines--enough to modify it. I'm guessing those heads went to the scrap pile behind his shop; kid blames me, despite never taking me up on dozens--possibly hundreds--of offers to do the work myself for free. Even offered to pick his car up from the shop and do the work in my race trailer, though in retrospect, that'd have been a logistical catastrophe for me, since that's where the dozen or so "paused" projects reside.
Second set went to an immaculate '14+ AWD in that beautiful blue (it still made his garage smell like new car), dude told me he was doing the swap in his garage, he'd previously done similar work with Ford Modulars but would call if he needed an extra set of hands, and lives right down the street from the dyno my subie buddy runs...sweet, no excuses. 3 weeks after I drop off the heads, he tells me he's moving to Utah for a cult. Or a college. Maybe it was a church...they're all the same to me. Regardless, he's too far away for me to help now and is still moving into a new house, with my luck he's gonna have a kid and sell that specimen of a car.
Third set got delivered on September 25th, been a one-sided text conversation since.
I have five sets of unground heads on-hand right now. I need guinea pigs. If admin staff would allow it, my perfect scenario would be to operate this experiment here in the open with only personal contact info being shared via PM (for the obvious reasons), everything else being transparent. My perfect test subject would already have a baseline dyno run with the mods they currently have on the car, and the car is currently running with no CEL light or any other issues (can't believe I have to specify that). Unless it's verboten, I'd like to get $500, after which I'd ship you a a set of heads (no gaskets, just assembled heads) in a reusable container that--after install--you can ship me your old heads and get $250 back. The way I see it, you're paying me $250 in labor, getting a free set of experimental heads, and getting above-market for your cores. If you insist on being a capitalist about it, you can say my labor's the free part...I don't actually care about the semantics, I just want to see how much power these mills make when you give them more air, and my wife--the rational one in this house--still doesn't like me wrenching on her car after the last time took 3 months.
Any thoughts on the subject are welcome.
Oh, and if someone wants me to work on a 2GR set, I'ma need to run a cores-first type of operation, where you'll have to send me a set of cores before I can do anything for you. 4GR heads are still fairly low demand, but 2GR have never been reasonable.
11-01-22, 01:36 PM
#72
Man that's unfortunate. So, the MT 250 has a 3GR and no head games applied, or did you sneak a set on there?
O/T but someone on here bought reground cams and we haven't heard from them and they would benefit the most from your work applied to a 3GR or 2GR...
O/T but someone on here bought reground cams and we haven't heard from them and they would benefit the most from your work applied to a 3GR or 2GR...
11-02-22, 06:44 AM
#73
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Nope, Head Games is still sitting under the 2.5L that came out. When I get enough cash on-hand, I'll be sending the 4 sets of camshaft cores I have to MWR in exchange for their lot of regrinds...but that's ~$5k at once, and I'm one of those people that's always a hundredaire.
Only thing I've done to the car off-camera was the Magic Collars and put some of the Whiteline bushings in before the boss lady told me to get it back on the road. Also bolted in some bars that I rattlecanned semigloss black because I had shiny new red, white and blue stuff all over the place. The pile of parts on standby for me to be forgiven has gotten bigger over the past year, with at least a set of H-Tech springs being added without mention in here. Gonna try to lower it without her thinking I did, and can't go too far because of our driveway. Been holding off on the new set of tires (yeah, those no-sidewall-stiffness-having mismatched winter tires are still on there. Florida kids reppin) to do the springs at the same time and hope that'll trick her. Also really hoping to get a QuickJack before she forgives me, I hate getting the Lex on jackstands already, losing ~3/4" will only make it worse.
Only thing I've done to the car off-camera was the Magic Collars and put some of the Whiteline bushings in before the boss lady told me to get it back on the road. Also bolted in some bars that I rattlecanned semigloss black because I had shiny new red, white and blue stuff all over the place. The pile of parts on standby for me to be forgiven has gotten bigger over the past year, with at least a set of H-Tech springs being added without mention in here. Gonna try to lower it without her thinking I did, and can't go too far because of our driveway. Been holding off on the new set of tires (yeah, those no-sidewall-stiffness-having mismatched winter tires are still on there. Florida kids reppin) to do the springs at the same time and hope that'll trick her. Also really hoping to get a QuickJack before she forgives me, I hate getting the Lex on jackstands already, losing ~3/4" will only make it worse.
05-07-23, 08:53 AM
#74
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Might as well update my failure blog...
So back in november, VFTuner announced they were going to support the IS250 in december, and I was going into the AWD bro's shop to grind subaru heads (and absolutely destroying VR6 heads, but we don't talk about that) in what used to be their never-used waiting room.
Come New Years, the tuning software isn't out yet, and one of the bros crashes a customer vehicle into a nearby CNC shop. Cutting through the drama, the tools got sold off to settle with the customer's insurance, and now that bro is living back in the Springs with family, waiting to see how bad the damages ultimately will be with the machine shop.
VFTuner started supporting us in the 3rd week of Feb, IIRC. The same week the AWD dyno got hauled off. Sad trombone. Like losing access to the lift all over again (without being the cause of my own strife, at least).
But since then, I've gotten my hands on another 3GR-FSE with the explicit intent of compare/contrasting it with the 4GR. I've just had it sitting there for a few weeks because the poor thing's wearing all it's oil on the outside, which I suspect is what led to the LHS exhaust cam chain snapping. There's also a rocker (follower?) broken into bits down in there, so I'm a little worried about piston contact, but that's about what I expect out of a $50 mall parking lot deal.
Just to answer the question I had that led me to spend that $50: yes, indeed, the intake and exhaust castings are different between 3GR and 4GR. 4GR's intake throats down to a nominal 25mm, while 3GR throats down to nominal 27mm. Haven't made myself a solvent bin big enough to fit the engine yet, but when I do, I'll be seeing if the 3GR commits the same sins in the bowl area as the 4GR. At this point, I could flip a coin on it, but my gut's telling me it's still bad as a means of limiting low-lift reversion up the port during exhaust overlap. I can't speak to what the 3GR's exhaust ports are in the valve area until I get the heads off it, but for the curious, the 4GR's exhaust port is 20mm nominal...and they all have a casting/cutting flaw on the short turn that'll definitely see gains from smoothing, but that's a me problem to solve.
Ostensibly, Toyota's already given me a 250hp capable casting with the 3GR. The intake throat size is where they choke the 4GR down to 200hp, and while I haven't really looked at the cams, I wouldn't be surprised if they're different between the two to aim for/hold different torque curves through their intended RPM range.
So yeah. The Head Games set has a lot more room for error than I initially thought, and would--just by measure/comparing to 3GR on the surface--probably choke out (all other things equal) around 215hp. HG intake throats are roughly 25.5mm, not quite 26mm, from my time spinning 36grit at 40k RPM in them...they have a better taper to them, at least. Toyota's 4GR ports are practically straight-walled, instead of the 7-11% grade you'd want, despite having plenty of room to make that happen in the O-to-D port transition inside the head. I guess it's that way to ease extraction of the casting tools. Also I was told by someone much more experienced than myself that I ovalled the intake seats and lapped them round, who then had a gay-ol'-time laughing at my story about my wife banning me from using florescent tracing dye ever again. Cest la vie. Guess HG's gonna be getting some BeCu seats before going live.
I'm currently looking for another 2IS to use as a test mule, using someone else's vehicle to venture where thar be dragons is kind of a D move. Wife's not down to live with her own Schrodinger's vehicles the way I do. I probably will end up having to do a AWD to RWD conversion, since AWD is all that really exists up here...and I'll cross the transmission bridge when I get there. I'll use a jeep AX5 if I have to...though the thought crossed my mind to see if the manual trans that comes in BMW AWD 3-series would be a viable solution to avoid swapping subframes. Again, me problems.
That's about it for my semi-annual, semi-public bellyflop...
So back in november, VFTuner announced they were going to support the IS250 in december, and I was going into the AWD bro's shop to grind subaru heads (and absolutely destroying VR6 heads, but we don't talk about that) in what used to be their never-used waiting room.
Come New Years, the tuning software isn't out yet, and one of the bros crashes a customer vehicle into a nearby CNC shop. Cutting through the drama, the tools got sold off to settle with the customer's insurance, and now that bro is living back in the Springs with family, waiting to see how bad the damages ultimately will be with the machine shop.
VFTuner started supporting us in the 3rd week of Feb, IIRC. The same week the AWD dyno got hauled off. Sad trombone. Like losing access to the lift all over again (without being the cause of my own strife, at least).
But since then, I've gotten my hands on another 3GR-FSE with the explicit intent of compare/contrasting it with the 4GR. I've just had it sitting there for a few weeks because the poor thing's wearing all it's oil on the outside, which I suspect is what led to the LHS exhaust cam chain snapping. There's also a rocker (follower?) broken into bits down in there, so I'm a little worried about piston contact, but that's about what I expect out of a $50 mall parking lot deal.
Just to answer the question I had that led me to spend that $50: yes, indeed, the intake and exhaust castings are different between 3GR and 4GR. 4GR's intake throats down to a nominal 25mm, while 3GR throats down to nominal 27mm. Haven't made myself a solvent bin big enough to fit the engine yet, but when I do, I'll be seeing if the 3GR commits the same sins in the bowl area as the 4GR. At this point, I could flip a coin on it, but my gut's telling me it's still bad as a means of limiting low-lift reversion up the port during exhaust overlap. I can't speak to what the 3GR's exhaust ports are in the valve area until I get the heads off it, but for the curious, the 4GR's exhaust port is 20mm nominal...and they all have a casting/cutting flaw on the short turn that'll definitely see gains from smoothing, but that's a me problem to solve.
Ostensibly, Toyota's already given me a 250hp capable casting with the 3GR. The intake throat size is where they choke the 4GR down to 200hp, and while I haven't really looked at the cams, I wouldn't be surprised if they're different between the two to aim for/hold different torque curves through their intended RPM range.
So yeah. The Head Games set has a lot more room for error than I initially thought, and would--just by measure/comparing to 3GR on the surface--probably choke out (all other things equal) around 215hp. HG intake throats are roughly 25.5mm, not quite 26mm, from my time spinning 36grit at 40k RPM in them...they have a better taper to them, at least. Toyota's 4GR ports are practically straight-walled, instead of the 7-11% grade you'd want, despite having plenty of room to make that happen in the O-to-D port transition inside the head. I guess it's that way to ease extraction of the casting tools. Also I was told by someone much more experienced than myself that I ovalled the intake seats and lapped them round, who then had a gay-ol'-time laughing at my story about my wife banning me from using florescent tracing dye ever again. Cest la vie. Guess HG's gonna be getting some BeCu seats before going live.
I'm currently looking for another 2IS to use as a test mule, using someone else's vehicle to venture where thar be dragons is kind of a D move. Wife's not down to live with her own Schrodinger's vehicles the way I do. I probably will end up having to do a AWD to RWD conversion, since AWD is all that really exists up here...and I'll cross the transmission bridge when I get there. I'll use a jeep AX5 if I have to...though the thought crossed my mind to see if the manual trans that comes in BMW AWD 3-series would be a viable solution to avoid swapping subframes. Again, me problems.
That's about it for my semi-annual, semi-public bellyflop...
05-15-23, 09:50 AM
#75
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Just some navel-gazing for the sake of any of you out there with AWD vehicles:
I was being slightly facetious when I said I'd use a jeep AX5, and when I said it I was referring to the 2wd version you generally find behind AMC 2.5L engines with the GM 60-degree engine bell pattern...
But then I remembered AX5's gearbox-to-bellhousing pattern is shared with G52, W58, and R151, among a couple others and can be readily adapted to more, but that's beside my point. My point is the jeep AX5 4x4 output is the mopar 6-bolt that's shared across numerous platforms, most relevant being the Durango/Aspen NV140 full-time single speed transfer case. Breaking it down Barney-style, if you adapt a Toyota GR engine bell pattern to the AX5 (which might already exist in something like the KZ bell, I dunno, I don't speak Toyota fluently), then you should be able to bolt the NV140 behind it, have driveshafts made, use the master cylinder and clutch pedal assembly from a 2IS 6MT, fab a simple shifter relocator, and have the first AWD 2IS worth driving. Hotwire your transmission harness to always see neutral or something to get around that. I ain't selling my spare 6MT ecu...
The AX5 has a terrible reputation in the jeep world and can be had for almost free (a case of beer, most typically), because they break under stock power with 30+" tires...we're spinning 26" tires on the 2IS, so the output loads are significantly lower. If you mount the engine/trans/tcase well enough, I don't see our platform being nearly as hard on the gearbox as, say, a 4300lb GVWR jeep YJ trying to spin 33's over boulders. I'd say a simple bearing rebuild kit and some care on reassembly would be a smart idea, but hey, if we're just out there dumpster diving, one might be good to hook with a half million on the clock. I personally know of one YJ owner who was always going to 4.0 swap it, and ended up selling it with the 2.5L/AX5/231 combo still going at ~350k miles.
Anyway, that's all assuming the NV140 behind a jeep box would fit in the swell under the 2IS/3GS. And a couple other things. Without an AWD in front of me, I'm just throwing ideas into the ether
Edit: just dawned on me the timeline of events with AMC, Chryco, Daimler, and so on. The output of the ax5 should be the AMC 21 spline, 90's mopar transfer cases liked 23 spline, german-inspired mopar tended to be 26 spline. So that's an issue. Somewhere around '07, they went away from the 6-bolt universal t-case mount, which is ultimately what this idea hinges on...but I bet the last 2.5L Wranglers had 23-spline trans-to-tcase. Could be wrong. Not my problem to actually solve (yet, anyway), just shooting holes in my own idea.
Edit2: on second thought, any remotely competent machine shop should be able to weld up and re-spline an AX5 output to go into whatever you want, if you remove it from the case and give it to them at the start of a bearing/gasket rebuild. So we're back to needing a *GR to W58 bellhousing for that to work. Or a DIY adapter plate, but then the options list grows substantially. Moving on...
I was being slightly facetious when I said I'd use a jeep AX5, and when I said it I was referring to the 2wd version you generally find behind AMC 2.5L engines with the GM 60-degree engine bell pattern...
But then I remembered AX5's gearbox-to-bellhousing pattern is shared with G52, W58, and R151, among a couple others and can be readily adapted to more, but that's beside my point. My point is the jeep AX5 4x4 output is the mopar 6-bolt that's shared across numerous platforms, most relevant being the Durango/Aspen NV140 full-time single speed transfer case. Breaking it down Barney-style, if you adapt a Toyota GR engine bell pattern to the AX5 (which might already exist in something like the KZ bell, I dunno, I don't speak Toyota fluently), then you should be able to bolt the NV140 behind it, have driveshafts made, use the master cylinder and clutch pedal assembly from a 2IS 6MT, fab a simple shifter relocator, and have the first AWD 2IS worth driving. Hotwire your transmission harness to always see neutral or something to get around that. I ain't selling my spare 6MT ecu...
The AX5 has a terrible reputation in the jeep world and can be had for almost free (a case of beer, most typically), because they break under stock power with 30+" tires...we're spinning 26" tires on the 2IS, so the output loads are significantly lower. If you mount the engine/trans/tcase well enough, I don't see our platform being nearly as hard on the gearbox as, say, a 4300lb GVWR jeep YJ trying to spin 33's over boulders. I'd say a simple bearing rebuild kit and some care on reassembly would be a smart idea, but hey, if we're just out there dumpster diving, one might be good to hook with a half million on the clock. I personally know of one YJ owner who was always going to 4.0 swap it, and ended up selling it with the 2.5L/AX5/231 combo still going at ~350k miles.
Anyway, that's all assuming the NV140 behind a jeep box would fit in the swell under the 2IS/3GS. And a couple other things. Without an AWD in front of me, I'm just throwing ideas into the ether
Edit: just dawned on me the timeline of events with AMC, Chryco, Daimler, and so on. The output of the ax5 should be the AMC 21 spline, 90's mopar transfer cases liked 23 spline, german-inspired mopar tended to be 26 spline. So that's an issue. Somewhere around '07, they went away from the 6-bolt universal t-case mount, which is ultimately what this idea hinges on...but I bet the last 2.5L Wranglers had 23-spline trans-to-tcase. Could be wrong. Not my problem to actually solve (yet, anyway), just shooting holes in my own idea.
Edit2: on second thought, any remotely competent machine shop should be able to weld up and re-spline an AX5 output to go into whatever you want, if you remove it from the case and give it to them at the start of a bearing/gasket rebuild. So we're back to needing a *GR to W58 bellhousing for that to work. Or a DIY adapter plate, but then the options list grows substantially. Moving on...
Last edited by Ultra4; 05-15-23 at 11:37 AM.