T0ked

iTrader: (2)

I equate VW with the likes of Toyota and Honda. The very reason the latter couple started Lexus and Acura. Audi is to VW what Lexus is to Toyota and that's the way they should keep it. I think VW is aiming too high. It's as if Toyota were to sell a $50k sedan.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Didn't see it mentioned but the latest Car & Driver compares Audi A8L, BMW 745i, Jaguar XJ8, Lexus LS430, Mercedes S430 and Volkswagon Phaeton. Ranking came out as follows:

6th Mercedes S430 (LAST!)
5th Volkswagon Phaeton
4th Audi A8L
3rd BMW 745i
2nd Jaguar XJ8
1st Lexus LS430!!!!!!!

The world is changing... you can't just have a lot of wood and leather, to be luxurious the interior must work in as stress free and comfortable a way as possible, something Lexus understands. Those other brands make 'pretty' but usually unusuble interiors.

Maeve

iTrader: (2)

Especially Benz, they have the most "buttons".

Iceman

To me: Lexus, Acura, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Saab, Jaguar, Infiniti, Audi, Lincoln, Cadillac, VW.

How I think America sees it: BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Saab, VW.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I still think that Phaeton is a gorgeous looking car.

Hermosa

I love that car too.

Going back to that list though I think it has to be broken up into maore categories but...

1. MB
2. Lexus
3. BMW

For interior though the Lexus beats the MB in design IMO.

BMW makes fine cars but their design has suffered and they have only made one good looking car in a while, the Z8. Hopefully there is more to come in the future. MB has their SL series which looks good too. Lexus' best looking car is still the SC3/400 until they make something new. The new third gen GS looks good though.

LS4fun

6.0 W 12!!!!!

phluid

If I ever considered a jag I would just save a bundle and buy a ford Taurus..

gsintensive

Well said. but still, VW is horrible in QA it's nowhere near other luxury sedan makers.

T0ked

iTrader: (2)

Awe c'mon, youre starting to sound like the MB guys that say Lexus is "just a toyota". The new all aluminum XJ is a beautiful car and the S-type R is a mean machine. Ok fine, the X-type is a piece of cr@p, I'll give you that.

My rankings would be as follows: MB, Lexus, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac, Infiniti, Acura, and the rest kinda just fall in the background. I personally love the new direction of Cadillac. The CTS and the XLR are great looking and preforming cars. And the CTS-V... what can I say...

D2-AUTOSPORT

I got this issue over the weekend and forgot to post! This is a excellent thread, so let me break my responses down:

1. Ratings
MB-BMW-Lexus-Audi/Jaguar-Infiniti-Acura, etc. I'm just basing this on CARS, thats the reason I did not include Cadillac/Lincoln, those brands are successful due mostly to SUV sales. I also lumped Jag and Audi together since they are the yin and yang, Jag has more "clout" Audi has a better, faster product. This is just my rough estimate based on PERCEPTION, eg, "I drive an Acura", well "I drive a LEXUS" (owned!). Once again my PERSONAL thoughts and reflections.

2. Although the excerpt that SICK posted is enlightening regarding direction of VW/Audi, I have NEVER understood why they would pit two of their products against one another. That would be like Toyota introducing a 54k Avalon!!! I dont care how fancy they make the interior of that car (and it is NICE), Americans are WAY to IMAGE CONSCIENCIOUS (sp) to purchase a VW over a Lexus in large numbers. I chose Lexus to compare it with due to price (50s to 60s). I cant really see myself cross shopping MB, BMW and VW!!!!. I know many will argue that when Lexus appeared in 1989, that it too was a unproven marque, but it was a DIFFERENT BRAND. People had a new frame of reference, dealer service, etc when dealing with Lexus. I know AUDI owners that get terrible service, imagine spending 60k and getting that at a VW dealership!! Thats a slap in the face.

IMHO, VW made a big mistake with the Phaeton, and the V8 Passat, since the NA market will not embrace them in large numbers, the Toureg has more of a chance since it was an SUV.

phluid

Jag has horrible service records and cost out the @$$ for parts, the back end of the s-type looks like a ford taurus.. the only cars made in this price range with more problems and more expensive parts would have to be rover.. and to think ford owns them both.. coincidence?

squarehat

I agree with all of the comments about the US market being "badge conscious." If the VW Touareg had been badged as an Audi with some alphanumeric designation (perhaps AT6/AT8 for "all-terrain"), I'm guessing they'd be hot sellers, given that almost all of the Touareg's competitors in the US market carry "premium badges"--Acura MDX, Cadillac SRX, BMW X5, Infiniti FX, Land Rover Discovery, Lexus RX/GX, M-B ML, Lincoln Aviator, Volvo XC90

I just received the new Motor Trend with the Touareg featured as its 2004 SUV of The Year. The exterior is clean and stylish, the powertrain capable, and the offroad abilities surpass many vehicles on that above list. Finally, the interior. The interior, with its brushed metal, burled walnut, and upholstery in a cognac color similar to Lexus' "Saddle", beats a majority of the SUVs on the above list, too. If somebody altered the pic to put the 4 interlocking rings on the the steering wheel hub instead of the "VW", nobody in their right mind would claim that the Touareg (at least in that interior configuration) wasn't a legitimate "premium' SUV.

LexFather

I could write a book dude. I should. Yup, the old man Pierch was cool but stubborn and hardheaded. Now Audi is going to have a supercar priced near the new Lambo Gallarado, pissing Lambo off. They JUST WENT downmarket (funny, 180k is downmarket ).

People don't realize while BMW and Benz and the others have been around before them, while THEY see it as an advantage, Lexus saw it as an ADVANTAGE for them. They took almost 10 YEARS to do R&D on not only how to make a luxury car, but to find out about the luxury car buyer.

As Bit stated, some companies STILL THINK, it's about leather and wood (and some STILL INSIST on fake wood). When there was only 3-4 luxo companies yes.

Now it's about the TOTAL OWNERSHIP EXPERIENCE.

VW has a 70k car, cool but they also sell 15k cars. It's like Acura RL owners making fun of the Integra, RSX guys (they do, I know). It does not give you a feeling of total luxury.


The Phaton could be a very worthy car but how many W-8 Passats do u see?

D2-AUTOSPORT

My sentiments exactly my man, heck the new Hyundai Sonata has woodgrain, leather, trunk struts, etc!! The treatment that I receive when I take my 7yr old 90k+ car in for service is what will KEEP me driving this brand. My tranny went out when i was over 200 miles away from home, and I never paid a DIME to get myself, and my car home-drove a brand new near 40k car for 4weeks-and got a BRAND NEW tranny for my car! Not to mention the courtesy and 2-3day update calls that I received, I bought my service writer (a woman) a candle set and a card when I went to pick up my car!!

Imagine this conversation: "Man, my new S500 with Sport package is AWESOME, it gets respect everywhere I go", then "yeah man, my 745i is a crowd starter at every parking lot" then "yeah my mom asked me who pulled on my Passat and made it so long when I came home with my Phaeton"

I have NEVER seen a V8 Passat and I spend ample time in over 5 states!! (MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ)