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The LC needs to go back to its roots, not some LX like behemoth. The two-door jeep that would put a Wrangler to shame is what they ought to make it, not some luxury SUV with 4 doors and massaging seats with mood lighting.
The LC needs to go back to its roots, not some LX like behemoth. The two-door jeep that would put a Wrangler to shame is what they ought to make it, not some luxury SUV with 4 doors and massaging seats with mood lighting.
They will make the 4Runner compete with the wrangler most likely. The LC will be a GX for Toyota. Probably not even an LX.
(From what I told @gor134 and @TexasFunRunner ), I've preferred to mind my business and take a step back (from being overwhelmed and busy overall) as more models get revealed (finally). However, I am seeing in a lot of different online spaces, a problem with bad rumors running amok on this Land Cruiser vs 4Runner vs GX 550 subject and not enough attempts at setting the record straight, to provide more clarity to interested parties. I typed this below weeks ago in mid-June, but never got around to posting it until tonight.
The Land Cruiser is an FJ Cruiser-focused replacement for Canada and USA. 4Runner is simply being redesigned and like I've said forever, EVOLUTIONARY. The misconceptions I keep seeing are 1000x worse on social media, with a lot more traffic there and unregulated chaos, no thanks to Toyota USA's public engagement staff not being allowed to discuss future product (beyond a restricted capacity; for marketing purposes). I already explained this a number of times to help clear the air, but it never seems to click universally and become the main narrative for accuracy's sake.
Originally Posted by situman
The 4Runner will likely be a lot smaller than the LC. It may take on the Wrangler.
Originally Posted by bliprdr
They will make the 4Runner compete with the wrangler most likely. The LC will be a GX for Toyota.Probably not even an LX.
No, that's not true. Somewhat correct a little bit in the first sentence, but not accurate in the second sentence.I don't know specifically where people are getting this FALSE rumor from, but I'm tired of refuting it in my earnest effort to keep everyone on the same page. I do recall that this rumor in origin, is 99.9% likely to be nonsense speculation originating from YouTube in 2022 and it derails anything I have shared over and over going back 4 years+. It really sucks that the correct narrative still isn't understood about these new TNGA-F vehicles, considering how I did my very best to clear the air. I take time out of my professional life and highlight any new developments I come across from both other personnel and my own research, but it doesn't do any good, if silly media-borne rumors are given precedence and the accurate things (from some of us) are drowned out.
In fact, some of the ignorant posts in the 2024 GX 550 thread, that trollishly attacked my setting the record straight, on what was coming to market for all three vehicles in GX (Defender rival), Land Cruiser (Bronco rival), and 4Runner (standard fare), are some of the same individuals questioning the product now, because they just don't pay any attention and instead derail discussion on the primary subject matter. Yet some of most ridiculous off topic comments in that thread of mine, were tolerated without the deserved criticism for their thread derailment and being glaringly off-topic. I can imagine such posts in that thread, are what helped mislead you both and not clear up any rumors.
The 4Runner is very evolutionary and is not going to take on the Wrangler or Bronco, any different from how it does that now. The new Land Cruiser (for North America) has been designed to serve that role more directly, that's what I can say right now. The Prado-derived Land Cruiser for 2024 is not a 1:1 match for what will be the more luxury-orientated mainline Prado versions for the global markets. The global Prado is probably more of a reskinned GX, from what I've been told. Anything credible you're seeing in the media regarding USA LC, I've been directly instrumental to that coming out. Not to mention, upcoming GX BEV.
I've said it many times, @gor134 , @TexasFunRunner , and several other users have tried to fill in the blanks too, but what I see happening here is, some of us provide new information in good faith and for zero profit (coughs YT vloggers), while some other users troll and derail discussion on both CL and in other online spaces. To the point good information is actually drowned out and no one else reading/commenting, is able to recall what they correctly heard previously from either myself or anyone else here. This isn't directed at non-regulars or newcomers on CL, but the fact I tried to address this previously and so have the tagged users, yet it is often drowned out and lost in translation to be easily forgotten.
It should be well understood once and for all, that the next 4Runner will be the same as it has always been in terms of design concept and that the Land Cruiser alternatively came to fruition due to these reasons:
In 2018 after the Land Cruiser's 300 (second) final design was frozen for MY 2022, following a rejected final design in 2016 (have photos of it) for MY 2020, that the decision to not federalize the J300 for USA was made.
----
Something else had to return in its place. more suitable to American tastes and more accessible, while returning a viable profit.
Over a year later, Toyota Motor North America started sharing with select Toyota personnel and limited group of media people (Motor Trend) in the summer of 2019, that the Land Cruiser will no longer be offered in USA by 2022.
---
Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman mentioning this on Instagram, failed to comprehend in the correct context, that 300-Series production was actually beginningin 2021 and so conclusion of 200-Series, meant that the Land Cruiser could not be imported for the 2022 model year, which of course started production in the year of 2021.
----
Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman ignorantly stated, that the Land Cruiser was DEAD AFTER 2022, which in itself was confusing and contradictory based on the above production start dates known to me at the time about J300. Production ended in March 2021.
----
I learned of these cancellation plans in August 2019 and was skeptical, yet concerned.
----
While I was disappointed over it, Tyler Duffy of Gear Patrol hit the nail on the head with this insightful 2019 article of his. Well predicted, from intelligent writing and deducing, in ways that other journalists never even pieced together that early! I didn't even expect it myself back then! Land Cruiser did take a page out of the LC200 Heritage Edition and stopped down in size, into the 4Runner and Tacoma realm as a Bronco rival. Anyday now...
----
In October 2019, @MPLexus301 who used to frequent here and worked in the automotive industry himself down south & a Lexus VIP customer himself, shared with me privately what happened to the aborted 2020 GS (became 2021 Mirai), but also the next generation Land Cruiser.
Once he shared that information to me, it became clear that such a vehicle as the "Land Cruiser" was targeting our (at Ford) yet to be unveiled U725 Bronco and FCA's almost 2 year old JL Unlimited Wrangler.
Oddly enough, my mind wasn't even thinking of it being an FJ Cruiser replacement. I thinking more about the J70 in modern form. Again, Tyler Duffy of Gear Patrol, had wisely predicted what many of us just hadn't expected. I regret not later reaching out to them first with my insight (exclusively), back in 2020 over Motor1 (who took me out of context).
I kept that future Land Cruiser insight private out of respect for 4 months (October 2019-February 2020), until something transpired to some annoyance and I went to the (useless) Motor1 with the information exclusively in February 2020:
As for the iconic Land Cruiser, the U.S. model will reportedly be sold only with five seats as a “serious off-roader” without an emphasis on luxury. It will be offered at a significantly lower price, but its launch date is not known at this point.
The insight shared with me privately in 2019 was dead accurate per Toyota plans, but on my own I figured out in February 2020 that it was a 2024 model at earliest, without much help. Having already known launch dates for several Toyota models and then saw this image before everyone else (at the time), this very slide for Toyota USA new model launches from January 2020 to December 2022 and a second (deleted) slide that showed further out launches (likely through December 2023), listing ALL under one single "2023" bubble: "Prius", "Camry", "Tacoma", and "Midsize SUV", I quickly answered what my source couldn't for many other people and myself.
From there, I learned for once that a new Tacoma would arrive in 2023 for MY 2024, as would a new Camry (accurate in early 2020), and most importantly, a new Land Cruiser that wasn't a 300-Series...
Jan 2020 Toyota Motor North America Launch Timetable Through December 31, 2022
For an explanation of why I am commenting on this topic in the manner that I am, this should say more in the hidden text. No one is required to read it, only those who choose to optionally. That's why it's hidden. So, I couldn't care less about TL;DR complaints from the usual critics (not directed at two quoted users)...
Spoiler
I knew the Land Cruiser was MY 2024, because Toyota would never discuss information with such an audience, if a model was not already in development. The new Land Cruiser wasn't quite finished and ready for production, but I figured at the time that this product had to be somewhat further along at 1-2 years (out of 5ish years overall) into development, for Toyota USA execs to be sharing any info with those staff (& dealers), per industry standards I knew of personally.
That key puzzle piece in February 2020, left me with the "Mid-Size SUV" being the next Land Cruiser for MY 2024 and not the larger 300-Series. No one else knew this outside of Toyota and that became a big source of confusion.
I didn't share my specific info on launch Model Year with Motor1, although I knew it to be true in my gut. I wanted further confirmation. This story caught on like wildfire in Q1 of 2020 and thoroughout the year got copied by so many other media outlets and amateurs (vloggers, bloggers, influencers, etc) on the eve of Bronco reveal. Thanks to stupid copy-pasters, the insight lost its context and credibility unfortunately spilling into 2021. I broke ties with Motor1.
When the 2024 Lexus GX 550 became more known in-depth to me 18 months later in 2021, which was about 2 years ago, I admit I became very confused and skeptical about the Land Cruiser future in USA. For a brief moment, I asked myself, if Toyota decided to convert that into the GX instead and canceled it for Toyota (brand)? Then I quickly figured out again in September 2021, while making a Toyota model launch chart through December 2023, that this vehicle was 2024.5 and not any sooner. I'd seen some tangible insight, which cut through that brief skepticism of mine...
I remember in some other spaces and even here, users like @iggyhop9 and @TexasFunRunner (other forum) politely asking me for clarification on my random mention of 2024.5 Land Cruiser. With TexFR I forgot to address it (answer question), but I had come across an incognito comment that acknowledged '24 Land Cruiser development plans still being active, which I was ready to dismiss (much of 2021), in almost thinking the ambitious Defender rivaling GX 550 instead replaced it as the USA hardcore offroader.
Remember that this thought process I had was back in 2021, when no one had solid confirmation of Toyota was doing for the GX and Prado, outside of some information shared with a few admins on Lexus Enthusiast and myself via one person. Then a Lexus insider, the latter only willing to discuss future GX in-depth with me. Thanks a billion to that Lexus insider.
The reason that I created and the 2024 GX 550 thread saw a lot of info from me at the beginning (in 2021), was having that Lexus guy as my numero uno (back then). He was really helpful, but couldn't really answer my Land Cruiser questions. Eventually some time passed from 2021 into 2022 and despite crickets, I started getting further renewed hope that the dedicated 4x4 Land Cruiser was still happening for America and that 2024 was still the MY.
Quoted from Jack Hollis by Motor Trend
Executive Vice President of Toyota Motor North America (TMNA)
December 1, 2022
Any pessimism of mine or anyone else, had to just cease. It shocked me to finally have confirmation of the 2024 LC repeated back to me by NEW independent sources, who I didn't previously share insight with. Several weeks later, Toyota dealers were finally shown the new Land Cruiser alongside the 2024 Tacoma in September 2022. Now it was clear, both this new Land Cruiser and the all-new 4Runner would indeed be launching together, but how? A year ago, I hadn't yet made the FJ Cruiser connection yet IIRC, so I couldn't make sense of the soccer mom Prado also being imported to North America as some downsized GR Sport special, because of the stupid renderings.
I deduced immediately that instead, this new Land Cruiser was a likely derivative of the upcoming GX 550/550h. It didn't make sense to me under a year ago, how did the regular Prado fit into this picture? How would 4Runner be differentiated? I leaned on my insiders at Toyota suppliers and TMNA, getting very mixed answers. Most people at TMNA and etc, couldn't really answer that question or simply didn't want to. The few who did know, were cautious as to what they let onto me. I didn't understand the positioning of this vehicle as a "Bronco competitor", even as someone in thick of it in owning 3 Broncos, employed by the corporate rival, and married to a T6 engineer. Not when the 4Runner also exists!
The relationship between the three in GX/Land Cruiser/4Runner became clearer to me this past spring, when it was finally understood that the new AMERICAN Land Cruiser was indeed going to be as they have been saying, that BADASS competitor, no ifs and buts. While 4Runner would sit right below it, albeit adjacently, as it returns to the equivalent of a Tacoma SUV.
Seeing forum chatter going back to the late 1990s, many people disagree, but Toyota confirmed that the 3rd Generation 4Runner, was in fact based on the 1st generation Tacoma:
According to engineers in a 1995 interview regarding 1996MY development, they mentioned that the 3rd Generation 4Runner known as N180, launched in Japan in September 1995 (Hilux Surf) and USA in January 1996, began design work rather very late in January 1992, just after the 1995 1/2 Tacoma's final design was signed off for production by November 1991. Yes, 1991. Toyota had that first gen Tacoma design already finished by November 1991, although it wasn't released to dealers until March 5, 1995 as a 1995.5 model. It was supposed to arrive much earlier (in 1994) and Truck/Pickup production was supposed to conclude in mid-1994, not halfway through the 1995 model year.
N180 3rd Generation 4Runner/Hilux Surf Design Program Proposal A Mockup - at Toyota Global HQ Aichi in 1992 N180 3rd Generation 4Runner/Hilux Surf Design Program Proposal A Mockup - at Toyota Global HQ Aichi in 1992
1995.5 Toyota Tacoma Press Release Photo (February 10, 1995; December 1994 Photoshoot)
1993 Toyota Pickup 4WD Deluxe V6 4x4
1996.5 Toyota 4Runner Limited V6 Prototype Vehicle (1994 Internal Photo at CALTY)
While engineers in Michigan and Aichi readied Tacoma prototypes for testing, the 1996 4Runner design was completed at the end of 1992, later being locked down (design freeze) for production by June of 1993 and filed for design patent registration in Tokyo.
On the flipside in more modern times, the new 2025 4Runner design was developed before the new 2024 Tacoma this time around, from originally being scheduled as a 2023 MY during styling efforts. Somewhat echoing the similar trajectory between the 4th Generation launched in October 2002 and 2nd generation Tacoma launched in October 2004, where 2005 Tacoma design work wasn't allowed start at Hino, until the 2003 4Runner final design was approved in 2000 (in parallel to GX 470). This time around, they ran parallel seemingly.
N210 Styling Process 1998-1999 - TOYOTA JKK SECRET
N210 4Runner Design Freeze 1:1 Mockup 2000 - Toyota JKK SECRET N210 4Runner Design Freeze 1:1 Mockup 2000 - Toyota JKK SECRET 2003 Toyota 4Runner Sport V6 Pilot Prod. Vehicle (August 2002 Photoshoot)
2005 Toyota Tacoma Double Cab V6 4x4 6MT Pilot Prod. Vehicle - August 19, 2004 Photoshoot
Add these two below together, with some minor changes you have the 2025 4Runner.
2025 Toyota 4Runner Rendering
2024 1/2 Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro - March 24, 2020 Internal Image for Marketing Purposes
The new 930B 4Runner prototypes have been on US soil since early 2021, kept under lock and key.
90% of the time, the public will not see these prototypes testing in final bodies for spy photographers to snap TMZ style. It's kept off the grid for as long as possible. Even worse, I see many vehicles testing here in Michigan, but many never make the news headlines. Especially at night, where you see 100x the amount.
I've said this all in the other thread. The all-new 4Runner definitely (already) exists and it's true to form, not some topless rival to the Bronco. It's just been delayed to hell.
Sometimes if there are significant enough developmental delays, a production design may or may not updated to be as fresh possible. With more context to that claim, essentially being "facelifted" during development. In this case, it is still the same design drafted years ago and solidified in 2020. Even the new GX was a design proposal completed shortly before the pandemic. These vehicles are late to production, with the 4Runner being the worst of them.
A great CL user on here in the automotive media (I will keep his username private) actually does a great job with investigative reporting and has recentered on broader level, the correct narrative on the American-spec Land Cruiser. Australian media like Japanese media, either put in good effort to gather credible insight on Japanese product or have a direct inside line into these developments from spokespeople trusting them more. American media are the odd ones out, in being treated like children by most automakers' USA press relations departments compared to their European, Asian, and Australian media counterparts taken more seriously and respected. It is unfortunate.
As I said before back in May:
Bronco Heritage Edition Bronco Badlands
My Toyota HQ source informed me on the 2024 Land Cruiser being a rival to these vehicles above specifically, not the 4Runner. Although I have never met him in person like most of the other Toyota sources, I know who he is position-wise and more. He's never wrong, unlike folks in the supply chain and a few that acted like disinformation agents (see 2024 Tacomagate). Said that launch is March 2024 or in his words, Easter 2024 back in March to me. Also mentioned that 4Runner is MY 2025 still and not delayed into forever, like some clueless armchair pessimists insist is the case...
The 4Runner is more tame by comparison. We are not going to back to 1984 with that one and should first see that soon in camo, once Land Cruiser is revealed in September, like all previous Prados going to 2002. I think that answers most questions, because you do have conflicting claims in terms of GX 550h's and Tacoma i-Force Max's T24A-FTS turbo hybrid 2.4 I4 being mentioned, but someone who knew of the vehicle being shown to last December alongside the 2024 Tacoma, heard of the 3.4TTV6 V35A-FTS being the main powertrain. I have heard of two trim levels before, but I don't want to ask about that yet. Think I can wait until reveal on that front.
There are 2 Land Cruiser series - what you guys know as Land Cruiser, and then Land Cruiser Prado, on which GX (luxury) is based as well as 4Runner (simpler).
Even cheaper versions of Land Cruiser Prado are not really cheap, like UN spec is usually way more expensive than the loaded RAV4 and it is built to be tough and not for internal space, nor it is too luxurious (it is JDM luxury, not Lexus), so usually a bad fit for US market. Which is why you guys get even simpler 4Runner.
I used to sell a ton of Prados to people who did not want Q7 as too flashy, and most needed them as a vehicle that can go on road but also for the weekend getaway somewhere in a bit rougher areas. Big Land Cruiser was always too expensive for what it is around here, and those people would get loaded Land Rovers or Q7s.
I would not be surprised if Prado for rest of the world also changes drastically in looks, like GX. They now have cheaper SUVs for other parts of the world, and then LC is stronger than ever for upper market, so it would make sense. Prado is not selling as well as LC because of the current tweener status.
(From what I told @gor134 and @TexasFunRunner ), I've preferred to mind my business and take a step back (from being overwhelmed and busy overall) as more models get revealed (finally). However, I am seeing in a lot of different online spaces, a problem with bad rumors running amok on this Land Cruiser vs 4Runner vs GX 550 subject and not enough attempts at setting the record straight, to provide more clarity to interested parties. I typed this below weeks ago in mid-June, but never got around to posting it until tonight.
The Land Cruiser is an FJ Cruiser-focused replacement for Canada and USA. 4Runner is simply being redesigned and like I've said forever, EVOLUTIONARY. The misconceptions I keep seeing are 1000x worse on social media, with a lot more traffic there and unregulated chaos, no thanks to Toyota USA's public engagement staff not being allowed to discuss future product (beyond a restricted capacity; for marketing purposes). I already explained this a number of times to help clear the air, but it never seems to click universally and become the main narrative for accuracy's sake.
No, that's not true. Somewhat correct a little bit in the first sentence, but not accurate in the second sentence.I don't know specifically where people are getting this FALSE rumor from, but I'm tired of refuting it in my earnest effort to keep everyone on the same page. I do recall that this rumor in origin, is 99.9% likely to be nonsense speculation originating from YouTube in 2022 and it derails anything I have shared over and over going back 4 years+. It really sucks that the correct narrative still isn't understood about these new TNGA-F vehicles, considering how I did my very best to clear the air. I take time out of my professional life and highlight any new developments I come across from both other personnel and my own research, but it doesn't do any good, if silly media-borne rumors are given precedence and the accurate things (from some of us) are drowned out.
In fact, some of the ignorant posts in the 2024 GX 550 thread, that trollishly attacked my setting the record straight, on what was coming to market for all three vehicles in GX (Defender rival), Land Cruiser (Bronco rival), and 4Runner (standard fare), are some of the same individuals questioning the product now, because they just don't pay any attention and instead derail discussion on the primary subject matter. Yet some of most ridiculous off topic comments in that thread of mine, were tolerated without the deserved criticism for their thread derailment and being glaringly off-topic. I can imagine such posts in that thread, are what helped mislead you both and not clear up any rumors.
The 4Runner is very evolutionary and is not going to take on the Wrangler or Bronco, any different from how it does that now. The new Land Cruiser (for North America) has been designed to serve that role more directly, that's what I can say right now. The Prado-derived Land Cruiser for 2024 is not a 1:1 match for what will be the more luxury-orientated mainline Prado versions for the global markets. The global Prado is probably more of a reskinned GX, from what I've been told. Anything credible you're seeing in the media regarding USA LC, I've been directly instrumental to that coming out. Not to mention, upcoming GX BEV.
I've said it many times, @gor134 , @TexasFunRunner , and several other users have tried to fill in the blanks too, but what I see happening here is, some of us provide new information in good faith and for zero profit (coughs YT vloggers), while some other users troll and derail discussion on both CL and in other online spaces. To the point good information is actually drowned out and no one else reading/commenting, is able to recall what they correctly heard previously from either myself or anyone else here. This isn't directed at non-regulars or newcomers on CL, but the fact I tried to address this previously and so have the tagged users, yet it is often drowned out and lost in translation to be easily forgotten.
It should be well understood once and for all, that the next 4Runner will be the same as it has always been in terms of design concept and that the Land Cruiser alternatively came to fruition due to these reasons:
In 2018 after the Land Cruiser's 300 (second) final design was frozen for MY 2022, following a rejected final design in 2016 (have photos of it) for MY 2020, that the decision to not federalize the J300 for USA was made.
----
Something else had to return in its place. more suitable to American tastes and more accessible, while returning a viable profit.
Over a year later, Toyota Motor North America started sharing with select Toyota personnel and limited group of media people (Motor Trend) in the summer of 2019, that the Land Cruiser will no longer be offered in USA by 2022.
---
Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman mentioning this on Instagram, failed to comprehend in the correct context, that 300-Series production was actually beginningin 2021 and so conclusion of 200-Series, meant that the Land Cruiser could not be imported for the 2022 model year, which of course started production in the year of 2021.
----
Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman ignorantly stated, that the Land Cruiser was DEAD AFTER 2022, which in itself was confusing and contradictory based on the above production start dates known to me at the time about J300. Production ended in March 2021.
----
I learned of these cancellation plans in August 2019 and was skeptical, yet concerned.
----
While I was disappointed over it, Tyler Duffy of Gear Patrol hit the nail on the head with this insightful 2019 article of his. Well predicted, from intelligent writing and deducing, in ways that other journalists never even pieced together that early! I didn't even expect it myself back then! Land Cruiser did take a page out of the LC200 Heritage Edition and stopped down in size, into the 4Runner and Tacoma realm as a Bronco rival. Anyday now...
----
In October 2019, @MPLexus301 who used to frequent here and worked in the automotive industry himself down south & a Lexus VIP customer himself, shared with me privately what happened to the aborted 2020 GS (became 2021 Mirai), but also the next generation Land Cruiser.
Once he shared that information to me, it became clear that such a vehicle as the "Land Cruiser" was targeting our (at Ford) yet to be unveiled U725 Bronco and FCA's almost 2 year old JL Unlimited Wrangler.
Oddly enough, my mind wasn't even thinking of it being an FJ Cruiser replacement. I thinking more about the J70 in modern form. Again, Tyler Duffy of Gear Patrol, had wisely predicted what many of us just hadn't expected. I regret not later reaching out to them first with my insight (exclusively), back in 2020 over Motor1 (who took me out of context).
I kept that future Land Cruiser insight private out of respect for 4 months (October 2019-February 2020), until something transpired to some annoyance and I went to the (useless) Motor1 with the information exclusively in February 2020:
The insight shared with me privately in 2019 was dead accurate per Toyota plans, but on my own I figured out in February 2020 that it was a 2024 model at earliest, without much help. Having already known launch dates for several Toyota models and then saw this image before everyone else (at the time), this very slide for Toyota USA new model launches from January 2020 to December 2022 and a second (deleted) slide that showed further out launches (likely through December 2023), listing ALL under one single "2023" bubble: "Prius", "Camry", "Tacoma", and "Midsize SUV", I quickly answered what my source couldn't for many other people and myself.
From there, I learned for once that a new Tacoma would arrive in 2023 for MY 2024, as would a new Camry (accurate in early 2020), and most importantly, a new Land Cruiser that wasn't a 300-Series...
Jan 2020 Toyota Motor North America Launch Timetable Through December 31, 2022
For an explanation of why I am commenting on this topic in the manner that I am, this should say more in the hidden text. No one is required to read it, only those who choose to optionally. That's why it's hidden. So, I couldn't care less about TL;DR complaints from the usual critics (not directed at two quoted users)...
Spoiler
I knew the Land Cruiser was MY 2024, because Toyota would never discuss information with such an audience, if a model was not already in development. The new Land Cruiser wasn't quite finished and ready for production, but I figured at the time that this product had to be somewhat further along at 1-2 years (out of 5ish years overall) into development, for Toyota USA execs to be sharing any info with those staff (& dealers), per industry standards I knew of personally.
That key puzzle piece in February 2020, left me with the "Mid-Size SUV" being the next Land Cruiser for MY 2024 and not the larger 300-Series. No one else knew this outside of Toyota and that became a big source of confusion.
I didn't share my specific info on launch Model Year with Motor1, although I knew it to be true in my gut. I wanted further confirmation. This story caught on like wildfire in Q1 of 2020 and thoroughout the year got copied by so many other media outlets and amateurs (vloggers, bloggers, influencers, etc) on the eve of Bronco reveal. Thanks to stupid copy-pasters, the insight lost its context and credibility unfortunately spilling into 2021. I broke ties with Motor1.
When the 2024 Lexus GX 550 became more known in-depth to me 18 months later in 2021, which was about 2 years ago, I admit I became very confused and skeptical about the Land Cruiser future in USA. For a brief moment, I asked myself, if Toyota decided to convert that into the GX instead and canceled it for Toyota (brand)? Then I quickly figured out again in September 2021, while making a Toyota model launch chart through December 2023, that this vehicle was 2024.5 and not any sooner. I'd seen some tangible insight, which cut through that brief skepticism of mine...
I remember in some other spaces and even here, users like @iggyhop9 and @TexasFunRunner (other forum) politely asking me for clarification on my random mention of 2024.5 Land Cruiser. With TexFR I forgot to address it (answer question), but I had come across an incognito comment that acknowledged '24 Land Cruiser development plans still being active, which I was ready to dismiss (much of 2021), in almost thinking the ambitious Defender rivaling GX 550 instead replaced it as the USA hardcore offroader.
Remember that this thought process I had was back in 2021, when no one had solid confirmation of Toyota was doing for the GX and Prado, outside of some information shared with a few admins on Lexus Enthusiast and myself via one person. Then a Lexus insider, the latter only willing to discuss future GX in-depth with me. Thanks a billion to that Lexus insider.
The reason that I created and the 2024 GX 550 thread saw a lot of info from me at the beginning (in 2021), was having that Lexus guy as my numero uno (back then). He was really helpful, but couldn't really answer my Land Cruiser questions. Eventually some time passed from 2021 into 2022 and despite crickets, I started getting further renewed hope that the dedicated 4x4 Land Cruiser was still happening for America and that 2024 was still the MY.
Quoted from Jack Hollis by Motor Trend
Executive Vice President of Toyota Motor North America (TMNA)
December 1, 2022
Any pessimism of mine or anyone else, had to just cease. It shocked me to finally have confirmation of the 2024 LC repeated back to me by NEW independent sources, who I didn't previously share insight with. Several weeks later, Toyota dealers were finally shown the new Land Cruiser alongside the 2024 Tacoma in September 2022. Now it was clear, both this new Land Cruiser and the all-new 4Runner would indeed be launching together, but how? A year ago, I hadn't yet made the FJ Cruiser connection yet IIRC, so I couldn't make sense of the soccer mom Prado also being imported to North America as some downsized GR Sport special, because of the stupid renderings.
I deduced immediately that instead, this new Land Cruiser was a likely derivative of the upcoming GX 550/550h. It didn't make sense to me under a year ago, how did the regular Prado fit into this picture? How would 4Runner be differentiated? I leaned on my insiders at Toyota suppliers and TMNA, getting very mixed answers. Most people at TMNA and etc, couldn't really answer that question or simply didn't want to. The few who did know, were cautious as to what they let onto me. I didn't understand the positioning of this vehicle as a "Bronco competitor", even as someone in thick of it in owning 3 Broncos, employed by the corporate rival, and married to a T6 engineer. Not when the 4Runner also exists!
The relationship between the three in GX/Land Cruiser/4Runner became clearer to me this past spring, when it was finally understood that the new AMERICAN Land Cruiser was indeed going to be as they have been saying, that BADASS competitor, no ifs and buts. While 4Runner would sit right below it, albeit adjacently, as it returns to the equivalent of a Tacoma SUV.
Seeing forum chatter going back to the late 1990s, many people disagree, but Toyota confirmed that the 3rd Generation 4Runner, was in fact based on the 1st generation Tacoma:
According to engineers in a 1995 interview regarding 1996MY development, they mentioned that the 3rd Generation 4Runner known as N180, launched in Japan in September 1995 (Hilux Surf) and USA in January 1996, began design work rather very late in January 1992, just after the 1995 1/2 Tacoma's final design was signed off for production by November 1991. Yes, 1991. Toyota had that first gen Tacoma design already finished by November 1991, although it wasn't released to dealers until March 5, 1995 as a 1995.5 model. It was supposed to arrive much earlier (in 1994) and Truck/Pickup production was supposed to conclude in mid-1994, not halfway through the 1995 model year.
N180 3rd Generation 4Runner/Hilux Surf Design Program Proposal A Mockup - at Toyota Global HQ Aichi in 1992 N180 3rd Generation 4Runner/Hilux Surf Design Program Proposal A Mockup - at Toyota Global HQ Aichi in 1992
1995.5 Toyota Tacoma Press Release Photo (February 10, 1995; December 1994 Photoshoot)
1993 Toyota Pickup 4WD Deluxe V6 4x4
1996.5 Toyota 4Runner Limited V6 Prototype Vehicle (1994 Internal Photo at CALTY)
While engineers in Michigan and Aichi readied Tacoma prototypes for testing, the 1996 4Runner design was completed at the end of 1992, later being locked down (design freeze) for production by June of 1993 and filed for design patent registration in Tokyo.
On the flipside in more modern times, the new 2025 4Runner design was developed before the new 2024 Tacoma this time around, from originally being scheduled as a 2023 MY during styling efforts. Somewhat echoing the similar trajectory between the 4th Generation launched in October 2002 and 2nd generation Tacoma launched in October 2004, where 2005 Tacoma design work wasn't allowed start at Hino, until the 2003 4Runner final design was approved in 2000 (in parallel to GX 470). This time around, they ran parallel seemingly.
N210 Styling Process 1998-1999 - TOYOTA JKK SECRET
N210 4Runner Design Freeze 1:1 Mockup 2000 - Toyota JKK SECRET N210 4Runner Design Freeze 1:1 Mockup 2000 - Toyota JKK SECRET 2003 Toyota 4Runner Sport V6 Pilot Prod. Vehicle (August 2002 Photoshoot)
2005 Toyota Tacoma Double Cab V6 4x4 6MT Pilot Prod. Vehicle - August 19, 2004 Photoshoot
Add these two below together, with some minor changes you have the 2025 4Runner.
2025 Toyota 4Runner Rendering
2024 1/2 Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro - March 24, 2020 Internal Image for Marketing Purposes
The new 930B 4Runner prototypes have been on US soil since early 2021, kept under lock and key.
90% of the time, the public will not see these prototypes testing in final bodies for spy photographers to snap TMZ style. It's kept off the grid for as long as possible. Even worse, I see many vehicles testing here in Michigan, but many never make the news headlines. Especially at night, where you see 100x the amount.
I've said this all in the other thread. The all-new 4Runner definitely (already) exists and it's true to form, not some topless rival to the Bronco. It's just been delayed to hell.
Sometimes if there are significant enough developmental delays, a production design may or may not updated to be as fresh possible. With more context to that claim, essentially being "facelifted" during development. In this case, it is still the same design drafted years ago and solidified in 2020. Even the new GX was a design proposal completed shortly before the pandemic. These vehicles are late to production, with the 4Runner being the worst of them.
A great CL user on here in the automotive media (I will keep his username private) actually does a great job with investigative reporting and has recentered on broader level, the correct narrative on the American-spec Land Cruiser. Australian media like Japanese media, either put in good effort to gather credible insight on Japanese product or have a direct inside line into these developments from spokespeople trusting them more. American media are the odd ones out, in being treated like children by most automakers' USA press relations departments compared to their European, Asian, and Australian media counterparts taken more seriously and respected. It is unfortunate.
As I said before back in May:
Bronco Heritage Edition Bronco Badlands
My Toyota HQ source informed me on the 2024 Land Cruiser being a rival to these vehicles above specifically, not the 4Runner. Although I have never met him in person like most of the other Toyota sources, I know who he is position-wise and more. He's never wrong, unlike folks in the supply chain and a few that acted like disinformation agents (see 2024 Tacomagate). Said that launch is March 2024 or in his words, Easter 2024 back in March to me. Also mentioned that 4Runner is MY 2025 still and not delayed into forever, like some clueless armchair pessimists insist is the case...
The 4Runner is more tame by comparison. We are not going to back to 1984 with that one and should first see that soon in camo, once Land Cruiser is revealed in September, like all previous Prados going to 2002. I think that answers most questions, because you do have conflicting claims in terms of GX 550h's and Tacoma i-Force Max's T24A-FTS turbo hybrid 2.4 I4 being mentioned, but someone who knew of the vehicle being shown to last December alongside the 2024 Tacoma, heard of the 3.4TTV6 V35A-FTS being the main powertrain. I have heard of two trim levels before, but I don't want to ask about that yet. Think I can wait until reveal on that front.
Momma, I've officially made it. I've been tagged in a Carmaker post.
Kidding aside, I do remember that post asking about the 2024.5 Land Cruiser as it confused the hell out of me. Kudos to CM1 and his source(s) for being accurate and early on that. In retrospect it all makes sense, but I definitely didn't understand at the time and its why I was curiously poking around.
@Carmaker1, thank you for the background on the developments. Someone on the Plano grapevine, whom we both know, shared this link with me a few weeks ago. Taking todays Land Cruiser teaser along with the CarsGuide rendering shows they line up pretty well. What we don't see, is, hopefully, the front end has the 40/70 look that we have heard about. Likewise, I would be shocked if we don't see a lifted, Overtrail version as well.
@Carmaker1, thank you for the background on the developments. Someone on the Plano grapevine, whom we both know, shared this link with me a few weeks ago. Taking todays Land Cruiser teaser along with the CarsGuide rendering shows they line up pretty well. What we don't see, is, hopefully, the front end has the 40/70 look that we have heard about. Likewise, I would be shocked if we don't see a lifted, Overtrail version as well.
I would take this over the new GX actually. I am willing to bet the new LC will outsell it 10 to 1.
no it wont. LC Prado will not be a cheap vehicle. It will be substantially more expensive than 4Runner. Toyota would be super happy with 2x-3x the sales of GX, which is actually very successful.
Momma, I've officially made it. I've been tagged in a Carmaker post.
Kidding aside, I do remember that post asking about the 2024.5 Land Cruiser as it confused the hell out of me. Kudos to CM1 and his source(s) for being accurate and early on that. In retrospect it all makes sense, but I definitely didn't understand at the time and its why I was curiously poking around.
LOL, I ain't that special. That would be @MPLexus301 . The OG source on that info, back in October 2019, after Motor Trend rendered the Land Cruiser nameplate as "DEAD". When I saw the Compact Cruiser BEV concept in December 2021, it was obvious the design was a hint of the midsized SUVs on TNGA-F (designed in 2019-2020). The unibody production vehicle will arrive in showrooms during 2024 I've been told, as a hybrid offroader on the unibody TNGA-C platform. As will a pickup related to it. That is the "Stout" people keep mentioning, but I don't know about that name yet...
Originally Posted by TexasFunRunner
@Carmaker1, thank you for the background on the developments. Someone on the Plano grapevine, whom we both know, shared this link with me a few weeks ago. Taking todays Land Cruiser teaser along with the CarsGuide rendering shows they line up pretty well. What we don't see, is, hopefully, the front end has the 40/70 look that we have heard about. Likewise, I would be shocked if we don't see a lifted, Overtrail version as well.
Thank you 100000x over for your often well-explained examples in your posts, from your own professional expertise. I am still thankful for our Plano source guiding us helpfully and cannot blame him for what Toyota marketing wants people to think about this vehicle being Bronco rival. I look forward to reveal in the coming weeks indeed, but just don't want anyone thinking, we sold them a bunch of hype. The proof is in the pudding, with Toyota officially teasing the FJ40 alongside it anyway, so we've done our part at least getting the information out there.
Thank you 100000x over for your often well-explained examples in your posts, from your own professional expertise. I am still thankful for our Plano source guiding us helpfully and cannot blame him for what Toyota marketing wants people to think about this vehicle being Bronco rival. I look forward to reveal in the coming weeks indeed, but just don't want anyone thinking, we sold them a bunch of hype. The proof is in the pudding, with Toyota officially teasing the FJ40 alongside it anyway, so we've done our part at least getting the information out there.
@Carmaker1 thank you, I created some initial analysis images from the teaser photos to get better insight to the upcoming Land Cruiser. I then received some feedback from users over on toyota-4runner-org, I've updated my images one last time until the reveal. The possible explanations get confusing, @Blackwatch pointed out the darker photo may be the heritage grill with Toyota spelled out and the lighter image protrusion may be the Toyota emblem. However, the lighter image side shadows seem to me to better match the round headlight concept. Further confusing matters as far as the light vs dark images, looking at closeups of the body we get some additional new insight from @CArunnerz. He pointed out the two sizes of B-C Pillar Vertical Window Splits, see my image below of them.
I then realized there are also possibly two styles of mirrors, one Square Folding Side Mirrors and the second A-Pillar Mounted Side Mirrors. I'm thinking the lighter image has the GX style side mirrors and this is what we will see on the US LC. Now the darker image with the A-Pillar Mounted Side Mirrors could be a lower trim or it could be the international Prado version. Of course, it is possible the differences may simply be due to the angle the photo or image was taken at, can't wait for the reveal in early August to find out.
06-15-23, 08:11 AM
