coming big uaw strike?
09-16-23, 04:50 PM
#61
Lexus Fanatic
I'm not saying that all of the current tech-features in vehicles are unnecessary, but it has become excessive, and we have clearly gone from producing driving-machines to producing Spock and Captain-Kirk machines.
Yes, that's part of it, but they didn't start to make crap-products until after they started to screw the employees. The products got even worse (particularly at Chrysler) when disgruntled employees, in reprisal, started to deliberately screw up the assembly lines. Customers and technicians were finding coke cans, drug-use products, cigarette butts, nuts/bolts and all kind of crap dumped down inside of door-panels which would cause rattles, things not welded, screws not tightened, etc.....
Toyota also treated their workers a lot better...they were considered more or less part of the corporate family, not just hired servants.
Toyota also treated their workers a lot better...they were considered more or less part of the corporate family, not just hired servants.
09-16-23, 04:51 PM
#62
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
with inexorable move to electric vehicles, greater automation of production, fewer parts, and competition, there will be less auto jobs. the uaw wants to somehow protect themselves but they can't win. even if they win a short term battle with a strike, they will lose in the long run as the 'big detroit 3' simply move production elsewhere or die on the vine through not being competitive..
uaw has been out of touch with reality forever since the gravy train was clearly going off the tracks decades ago.
of course they're fighting for all they can grab now and don't really care if ford/gm/stellantis go out of business, probably figuring there will be another bail out to buy votes.
of course they're fighting for all they can grab now and don't really care if ford/gm/stellantis go out of business, probably figuring there will be another bail out to buy votes.
09-16-23, 04:58 PM
#63
Lexus Fanatic
bad products didn't help, but it wasn't that simple. gm et al were also literally trapped in union contracts where they had to pay billions for decades to thousands of workers to do NOTHING. that and giant pension obligations they couldn't afford but agreed to years before to keep the factories going. one gm ceo literally said their survival depended on how fast gm retirees die off.
This is probably not a popular opinion but American cars from the glory days are terrible. Build quality is generally poor, reliability isn't great, they guzzle gas, leak oil. Panel gaps were on another level, giant shims everywhere. We have a rose coloured glasses view because the classics on the road now have been restored and most of the issues fixed.
09-16-23, 05:13 PM
#64
Lexus Champion
They did it themselves by never saying no. I think it will happen again.
This is probably not a popular opinion but American cars from the glory days are terrible. Build quality is generally poor, reliability isn't great, they guzzle gas, leak oil. Panel gaps were on another level, giant shims everywhere. We have a rose coloured glasses view because the classics on the road now have been restored and most of the issues fixed.
This is probably not a popular opinion but American cars from the glory days are terrible. Build quality is generally poor, reliability isn't great, they guzzle gas, leak oil. Panel gaps were on another level, giant shims everywhere. We have a rose coloured glasses view because the classics on the road now have been restored and most of the issues fixed.
Plus yeah, the ones still around are NOTHING like what the cars were actually built when new. They are existing to a standard that is insanely better than factory new due to the amount of care and effort the owners put in.
No one seems to look at the fact that the newer cars (1995-now) somehow can and do easily hit 200k miles with poor ownership. They aren't regarded the same as those old junk boxes because they don't look as cool and aren't from the peak days of the US despite the fact that they are better cars
09-16-23, 05:42 PM
#65
First, you have to remember that although companies can't increase taxes, they can, and do, increase prices.....we have seen that in spades the last few years in many industries, although, with vehicles, more at the dealer level than the manufacturer level. Second, like I said earlier, look at history......The Big Three were at their best, and making their best profits (1950s/60s) when they WERE paying high wages and good pensions, and when the UAW was at its strongest. It was an unmistakable pattern......the cheaper and more Scrooge-Like the companies got over time, and the more they took away from their employees, and the more jobs they farmed out overseas, the more market-share they lost, and the worse things got for them. Like it or not, Karma caught up with them.
09-17-23, 05:51 AM
#66
Super Moderator
For reference, my total labor cost (including benefits) works out to about $80/hr for a software developer with 25+ years of experience who is more or less solely responsible for designing and building an application that is ranked by the organization as MORE important than the ones that actually contribute to our revenue. The UAW says it should cost nearly twice as much to employ someone who assembles cars designed by someone else, using parts that are provided to them. I obviously don't agree.
So what is "the right amount"?
09-17-23, 06:52 AM
#67
Lexus Fanatic
09-17-23, 07:09 AM
#68
Super Moderator
Thus is not meant to be evasive to your question, but It's hard to give any one set figure. I have always felt, and still do today, that wages should reflect the average cost of living for whatever area the plant or factory is located in. Obviously, it costs a LOT more to live (or retire) in the New York City area or Coastal California than in the Midwest or South. Wages should be negotiated and set, IMO, for the conditions of working at each plant.
So if we go with Michigan, where a decent number of these plants are located, where should we land?If an employee chooses to retire to a HCOL area after spending their entire career in a LCOL area, I'd argue that's none of the former employer's concern.
09-17-23, 07:25 AM
#69
Thus is not meant to be evasive to your question, but It's hard to give any one set figure. I have always felt, and still do today, that wages should reflect the average cost of living for whatever area the plant or factory is located in. Obviously, it costs a LOT more to live (or retire) in the New York City area or Coastal California than in the Midwest or South. Wages should be negotiated and set, IMO, for the conditions of working at each plant.
Do you think someone in MI with 10 years experience doing basic assembly work, is worth more that $33/hr and have a company sponsored pension? How about a barista's salary at the neighboring Starbucks? What do you think they're worth? Their average pay is less than $15/hr with no pension. I'm guessing you're ok with that.
09-17-23, 04:46 PM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
Not that I know of, but I don't know all of the pay details.
In a word, IMO, I think that anyone who gives 30 or 40 years of their lives to an organization, from a janitor al the way up to a CEO, deserves a reasonable pension. In the military (and other uniformed services such as police and fire) you can get one after only 20 years. My own pension, BTW, after 33 years in my career, was about two-thirds of my salary....and that doesn't count my own private retirement nest egg from my own investments.
Do you think someone in MI with 10 years experience doing basic assembly work, is worth more that $33/hr and have a company sponsored pension? How about a barista's salary at the neighboring Starbucks? What do you think they're worth? Their average pay is less than $15/hr with no pension. I'm guessing you're ok with that.
09-17-23, 04:48 PM
#71
Lexus Fanatic
Back to the strike.....Stellantis offerred 21% pay hike over 4 years....the union is still holding out for 40%
While I'm not sure the whole 40% is feasible, I still think they have a point.....Stellantis's CEO got a 40% hike in the last four years.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-strike-offer/
While I'm not sure the whole 40% is feasible, I still think they have a point.....Stellantis's CEO got a 40% hike in the last four years.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-strike-offer/
09-17-23, 05:11 PM
#72
...
In a word, IMO, I think that anyone who gives 30 or 40 years of their lives to an organization, from a janitor al the way up to a CEO, deserves a reasonable pension. In the military (and other uniformed services such as police and fire) you can get one after only 20 years. My own pension, BTW, after 33 years in my career, was about two-thirds of my salary... ...
In a word, IMO, I think that anyone who gives 30 or 40 years of their lives to an organization, from a janitor al the way up to a CEO, deserves a reasonable pension. In the military (and other uniformed services such as police and fire) you can get one after only 20 years. My own pension, BTW, after 33 years in my career, was about two-thirds of my salary... ...
09-17-23, 05:36 PM
#73
Lexus Fanatic
In a word, IMO, I think that anyone who gives 30 or 40 years of their lives to an organization, from a janitor al the way up to a CEO, deserves a reasonable pension. In the military (and other uniformed services such as police and fire) you can get one after only 20 years. My own pension, BTW, after 33 years in my career, was about two-thirds of my salary....and that doesn't count my own private retirement nest egg from my own investments.
09-17-23, 06:01 PM
#74
Pole Position
one of the most effective political con jobs over the last 50 years has been the steady and effective effort to convince the American middle class to vote and take positions against their own best interests but beneficial to the interests of those significantly wealthier than them.
quality generally-available healthcare that isn’t tied to your job and doesn’t bankrupt people: bad.
free or affordable four-year degrees or quality vocational training: bad
tax burdens that disproportionally fall on lower and more middle income families: good
Caps on social security taxes that massively benefit the wealthy at the expense on lower and more middle income families: good.
And so on. It’s clearly working, as you can see from many posts in this very thread. Most people are an unexpected pink slip on a Friday away from being royally screwed as soon as the following Monday, yet they’ve let themselves be manipulated to think it will never happen to them and that it’s ok that it happens to others.
remember, folks, that rising tides float all boats. It doesn’t need to be a zero sum game. Others don’t all need to lose for us all - individually and collectively- to win.
quality generally-available healthcare that isn’t tied to your job and doesn’t bankrupt people: bad.
free or affordable four-year degrees or quality vocational training: bad
tax burdens that disproportionally fall on lower and more middle income families: good
Caps on social security taxes that massively benefit the wealthy at the expense on lower and more middle income families: good.
And so on. It’s clearly working, as you can see from many posts in this very thread. Most people are an unexpected pink slip on a Friday away from being royally screwed as soon as the following Monday, yet they’ve let themselves be manipulated to think it will never happen to them and that it’s ok that it happens to others.
remember, folks, that rising tides float all boats. It doesn’t need to be a zero sum game. Others don’t all need to lose for us all - individually and collectively- to win.
